Is Mudcat a friendly site?

Subject: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,pinkfiddle lost cookie
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:35 AM

Hi

I'm really disappointed that I've found myself wanting to post this. At the moment I don't really feel as though I want to continue posting on this forum.

Earlier this year I posted some questions in relation to my MA on folk revivals that I was working on, and many of you were able to help out. Some of you have also asked to read it. I am getting my results on this piece of work in a few days and in the New Year I am hoping to put it online.

However, while most people I have chatted with on Mudcat have been friendly I seem to have become the subject of attack from an anonymous guest who has criticised me, my typing errors and my MA (a piece of work he has never seen). It is the criticism of my MA that has upset me the most. I worked extremely hard on this piece of work - I did my MA in a year and it was a very intense experience that I took on a few months after losing my father.

Louisa

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:40 AM

Respectfully suggest that Anon is a A~~~~~e who is incapable of producing a thesis himself - and who should be treated with contempt.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:43 AM

Well, Louisa, consider the kind of person who would need to remain anonymous and who would attack people in a personal way for silly crap that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Is that really someone to whom you want to pay much attention?

Mudcat is just like the rest of the world. There are angels and there are demons and there's a vast array in varying degrees in between. As with the rest of the world, you get to decide which conversations and people you want to empower and which you want to ignore.

Me? I say ta heck with the buttheads and let's play nice and have fun. Sometimes "Guest" forgets to take his meds or just needs to eat more bran flakes. We try not to have that spoil our good time.

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:44 AM

Hi Pink.......I saw the thread you mention and I wondered what that was all about then. Truthfully, look at the responses you got before and I think you'll agree it's nice and friendly place. Sadly, we have become large enough to attract the occasional flamer or troller and you seem to have caught the attention of one of them.

Ignore it. It's the only thing to do. BTW, do you want to reset your cookie? Try it by going to membership at the top and follow the instructions for reset cookie. If you have a problem we can help and you can also post a message in the help forum.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Willa
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:47 AM

Yes, Pinkfiddle, on the whole it is a friendly site, but as in 'real life' there are a few (generally Anon)who enjoy upsetting others. Bear that in mind, and please continue to post. Let me make clear that I have no objection to anyone posting as a guest, even anonymously; I did that myself to begin with.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:50 AM

'Course its a friendly site, Pinkie. Just because some mannerless git of an outsider comes in and makes an a****le of him/her self doesn't mean we're all like that, right? Try not to let it get you down. Guest has probably just run out of dried frog pills.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:55 AM

Ah well, there are two (well probably more, actually) two things which you should keep in mind: some people are jerks. and two, "Illegitimi non carborundum".

I'd like to see the negative response you speak of. I'm willing to bet there is at least one spelling error. I am also certain that there are numerous syntax errors as well.

and I endorse Gareth's statement.

Consider the fact that this was an anonymous guest not a regular Mud Catter!

God bless

CB

just for the record I think that I'll "out" myself (even though it isn't necessary) I think the "moniker" device can be intimidating to some people:

Coyote Breath is Tom Meisenheimer 802 Maupin Ave. New Haven Missouri 63068 1(573) 237-3548 [e-mail] or [e-mail]

and anyone who wants to spend the nickle is certainly free to contact me in any fashion they wish to use and my door is always open, fire is in the stove, beer in the fridge, Bratwurst on the grill and no dust on the banjo

CB

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:57 AM

Chin up Pinky!!
To paraphrase an old saw about teachers. Those who can do, and those who can't criticise. My motto is if it feels good do it, and let the rest go hang, anyway you die if you worry, and you die if you don't worry.
SO WHY WORRY?.
Failte.....Jock

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 11:58 AM

Louisa,

Please don't be discouraged by Mudassholes, they are the clear minority who abuse their privileges. I for one would LOVE (hey, I shouted that!) to read your thesis.

I know it's no consolation, but for a considerable time I was personally flamed (I had posted my email addy here) because I stated a religious opinion, signed my posts with "Peace", liked guitar threads, and had somehow made someone feel abused by having a well considered opposing view. I outlasted the flamer and I haven't changed my modus operandi.

See you around?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:10 PM

You will get the occasional flamers & trollers in ANY unmoderated forum. Mudcat doen't seem to attract as many as other places I have visited... Overall it is very friendly here.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:14 PM

yeah pinkfiddle! I would like to read your thesis too! How can I get access to it? It sounds to me like a good subject. Did you say what your MA will be in? I mean; Anthropology, or Sociology, Musicology? (sp) or other?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:19 PM

Louisa, the fact that this is an open site means just about anyone can come in here and post anything. All the helpful and friendly people you've met here can't do a thing about the bad stuff, other than ignore it.

I suspect the insults and criticisms without any substance come from people who are somewhat desparate that others notice they exist. The anti-whatever nature of their posts may make them feel like an individual, as if disagreement automatically makes them more important.

Just look at the criticism. If there's no content, and it's just something like "that's a dumb idea," you may be dealing with someone just looking for attention - maybe even someone's lonely child who got on the family computer and found a new way to write graffiti. They aren't talking "to" people; they're talking "at" people. Is there anything to indicate it's not a pissed-off-at-the-world kid?

As to whether or not you hang around, I guess it comes down to which things have more importance for you: the helpful advice, friends and potential friends, or the graffiti-writers. Hopefully, the "good guys" will win.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:20 PM

We all have our BAD days, it's just that this person Guest,seems to have one every day. Just ignore it, post your MA on Folk revivals if you can stand the critisism that it will inevitably bring. Even though you laboured long and hard it will not be everyone's cup of tea. You can however totally ignore the straight "guests" opinion as they have no merit. I am really a member, I just end up posting from work at lunchtime (yeah I know it's a Saturday, first time in about 4 years that I couldn't get out of it) but I always use my mudcat name. Look forward to reading your work. JohnB

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From:
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:32 PM

Louisa, I am sorry that you have had problems with the anonymous "Guest" types. Hopefully you can ignore them, and not worry about their opinions.

I too would like to read your thesis. My e-mail is above if you would like to contact me. I assume you are using a word processor of some form. Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:37 PM

Clearly anyone posting as GUEST (with no added monicker of any sort) wishes to be regarded as a sort of mayfly, making one single post and then vanishing away, rather than as someone who is interested in any kind of continuing discussion, or whose opinion needs to be treated as significant. Never assume that GUEST is the same as GUEST let alone GUEST.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 12:56 PM

Louisa, I say this to you from the perspective of an elder in these parts. The context should be taken as a scolding, given in a caring way. I am doing it because I care about having you here. You are good for the village that Max has created and many of us love dearly.

Ready? Why would a person with enough on the ball to have completed a Bachelor's AND to go on to study for a Masters, AND complete a thesis, be so silly as to feed these bottom dwelling slugs? You are smart enough to understand the psychology here, and conversly are to be chastised for feeling sorry for yourself, hence giving this cretin what s/he craves. In case you don't get it, IGNORE - IGNORE - IGNORE. You are respected among your peers here, and the opinions of those emotionally damaged carcasses who need to make others feel angry and upset so they can feel good about themselves are not relevant. Neither do they merit any response from the rest of us beyond telling them to take their meds, grab a cold coke, sit in the corner with a smile on their faces, and shut the feck up. Got it? Generally, if someone won't adopt a handle or ID themselves, they are not worthy of your time.

Chastising over. I, for one, enjoy having you here. I enjoy your posts, and find that the place is better for your presence. Don't ever let these 'roids get to you.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,McFart of Knowitall
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:06 PM

Louisa,

If you are as stupid as Big Mick implies, let me summarize his post for you.

Big Mick cannot believe that someone as stupid as you graduated from iniversity, let alone got into grad school. Big Mick would like you to ignore the flames. Presumably, including his.

You're right, Mudcat can be an unfriendly site. But you'll never get the Mudcat inner clique elite (what Big Mick calls the "elders") to admit it.

McFart of knowitall

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:21 PM

I am posting to demonstrate to you what I am talking about, Louisa.

First off, Louisa, you are a part of the inner clique already. I am very happy that you are.

Now, let us examine this last person's post. this cretin thinks folks are really dumb and easily manipulated. S/he starts with a moniker designed to get a rise. Cute. Won't work. I always chuckle at those that are so insecure about themselves that they call anyone else with an opinion contrary to theirs a "know it all". Saves them from having to exercise their inadequate intellect.

Next these mentally and emotionally challenged folks, deserving of pity and little else, will attempt to convince you that words mean something other than what they plainly mean. I got to this "person" so badly that they felt the need to defend themselves. Good. Shoe on the other foot. How's it fit?

So this was a nice try by this emotionally challenged flamer/troll. Ignore them, Louisa, as I am going to. I hope you will accept that what I am really saying in this thread is that you are a great Mudcatter and should NEVER consider leaving us because of a pathetic individual that continually tries to get his/her kicks by manipulating others. It is the only validation they get. A shame really. I wish their lives so far had provided them more self worth.

This is my last post in this thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:44 PM

Well, I have been pretty thoroughly flamed and harassed, and I'm still here. *G* But I did take some breaks when I needed to, sometimes by announcement and sometimes not... some days the a**holes really can get to you worse than others, eh?

Sometimes internet interaction gets under our skins faster than we are used to from 3D interactions... the medium takes us faster, neurologically, than our learned coping behaviors are set up to handle. Mudcat in particular is very fast, because of its design-- perhaps a hard place to learn one's first lessons about pacing one's internet life. We can start to spin...

When something happens here that one can't seem to let go of-- it just means your buttons have been pushed. Unhook, rethink, play some music... come back if and when that makes sense. See?

Yes, there are a**holes here.... but they are just people who bring that particular variety of baggage to their internet lives, as there are others who bring the type of baggage that takes things too hard from time to time. But even though there ARE people here wo do try to get a rise out of folks, or start trouble, that does not relieve us of our responsibility for ourselves-- and it does not mean we are not fully capable of deciding for ourselves how to think and how to respond internally rather than react externally. It does not mean there is something wrong with the PLACE... nor with you, either.... just that a break may be needed.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM

Yeah, kill this thread in case McArse of Soditall comes back.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:05 PM

Being an anonymous poster has NOTHING to do with a person's character. Nor does membership automatically make someone kind and good. There are certainly people of both extremes here, and membership or lack of it is not a factor.

I think the elders or whatever you wish to call them should get off the membership business as being the method to eradicate poor behaviour here. Certainly some of the members are just as guilty when it comes to rudeness. Perhaps they are even more responsible when it comes to the condescension which can make a person feel just as unwelcome.

I am not saying that there are not GUESTS who abuse the site with their sniping and petty comments, but being a guest does not automatically make your post worthless, something to be ignored. There are members' posts which are just as ignorable in my opinion.

Whether I post as GUEST, GUEST,Henry, [member] Henry, or some fanciful name such as Dingleberry would make no difference in what I have to say or what I think about what goes on here.

Having said all that, yes, it can be a friendly place, and that is what you will find most of the time. If you ask a question you are almost certain to meet with an honest attempt to answer your request. I won't mention those who are most likely to spend time and effort to answer your question because I would most certainly leave some out. Those who perform this valuable service for you know who they are, as do most of the people who come here even semi-regularly. They probably do not get enough thanks but that is the nature of serving sometimes.

There are others who may not ordinarily post requested lyrics, chords, or whatever for you, but will take a great amount of time and effort to answer your questions about instruments, theory, available recordings, and such a wide variety of other things as to be nearly mind boggling. The collected knowledge which is imparted to even a casual visitor is freely given, and I doubt that there is another place where you can gather so much hard to find information, and all of it free of charge.

If you need a particular recording or other information, some member [or yes, a non-member, too] is almost certain to tell you exactly where you can find it. Failing that, they may well offer to send you a tape or whatever else you require at their own expense. I could go on and on, but I expect I have already done that.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:22 PM

Because Henry makes a valid point, I will jump in and say this to him.

Henry, please accept my apologies if you think I was saying that anonymous posting makes one a creep. That is not what I meant to say and I am sorry for making it appear so. What I was saying is that flaming/trolling as an anonymous guest is everything that I described. It demonstrates that one is a coward and doesn't want to accept the responsibility for their words and action. This is how the cowardly person operates. They have no regard for this forum for what it means to the rest of us, rather as a place they can damage for their own needs. They have no stake in its survival, as they will just move on to the next. I guess it all boils down to intent, with a heavy dose of emotional instability providing the impetus. At any rate, I hope that you will accept my apologies.

When I use the word "elders" it is only used to denote length of time on the forum. Nothing more. Oddly enough to some, I see Gargoyle as an elder for the same reason. And he certainly wouldn't be considered part of any clique. But no matter how disappointed I get when he resorts to certain tactics, he always id's himself.

Glad you are here, GUEST Henry.

Mick who really is done with this thread now.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:26 PM

Mid all the logic, it still hurts to be called names on a public forum. Most of us have been on the receiving end of it one time or another Louisa. Sorry it is your turn. Just consider the source and move on.

Recently, I have been getting some flak from "GUEST". The latest - "SINSULL is not the brightest button in the box." GUEST is absolutely correct. I am the tarnished antique silver one, the priceless one of a kind, nestled amid all that flashy new brass.

Congratulations on your MA. I too requested and am still looking forward to reading your thesis. Keep in mind my limited mental capabilities - MA in Ancient Languages.
Mary

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,overweight drunken irish guy
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:28 PM

at 1:21, Big Mick said, and i quote, "This is my last post in this thread."

at 2:22, Big Mick was posting again.

wotta a feckin liar. but typical of the mudcat inner clique.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:33 PM

We can get into some pretty heated debates around here, but folks generally respect one another. A person's words can seem harsh if you can't imagine the smile, or the twinkling eye that would punctuate them in real life. The world is full of weirdos - most of the ones around here are behave kindly most of the time. Most of us can occasionally "lose it," and it takes our own concsiences or a friendly word to bring us back to rationality. The ones who don't don't care about being kind - those who flame because it makes them feel superior, or those who hang onto grudges, and go into anonymous troll mode...who cares? It's their problem - let 'em keep it.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,Henry
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:38 PM

Mick, I do understand. I was not directing my comments at you in particular, just a general comment about the prevailing attitude that some exhibit toward nonmembership. There were other such comments in this thread, and in any number of other threads as well.

My use of the word elder was not intended to be derogatory either, just a term you used which was used again by another. I am normally a person of few words or none at all, despite appearances here. I have been around far longer than my posts would indicate, so I suppose that makes me sort of an elder, too. So now I am done with this thread as well.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 02:59 PM

Louisa, I was there, right in the middle of the folk revival, and I'm eager to read what you have to say.

You are doing serious work in the field, and are to be honored for it.

Unfortunately, there are other, small persons who can make themselves feel big only by trying to pull other people down. They are to be pitied. And ignored. They're fairly easily identified. Especially when they emit "overweight drunken irish" belches and "Knowitall McFarts" about "inner cliques." Gasbags all!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 03:43 PM

Why give a stranger the power to hurt you? Why do you give a damn what he thinks?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 05:27 PM

Here is a picture of an elder.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:08 PM

I particularly like the beauty tip:
BEAUTY:Soak a handful of fresh elder, lime and cammomile flowers in hot water. Press to form a paste and place between two pieces of gauze as a face-pack.Leave on face for twenty minutes.

Now all we need is a volunteer...Mick???? Joe????

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:29 PM

I think if we soak a handful of elder it means we need more than one. Frankly, right now soaking in a hot bath of lime and chamomile flowers would be very nice. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

The pressing and pasting part might be unpleasant however. And I won't touch the facepack part with a ten-foot pole ... I'll leave that one for Catspaw ...

ww

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 07:41 PM

Pinkfiddle, I hope your cookie is restored soon, and that you'll tell us more about your MA work. Will you be posting it online at your university? Do you have an abstract you can post to the list now?

Maggie

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 08:14 PM

I'l remain anon for this one if you dont mind (& this is my 1st posting to this thread, in case anyone should think differently...)

Like everyone has been saying, Louisa, why give any credence to the 'opinions' (not that they actually ARE opinions) of one sad screw-up who thinks he is somehow better off by bringing you down? His (most likely a 'he' rather than a 'she', I'd guess) mentality is the same as that of a bullying Schoolchild who pushes into the Lunch Queue...he's not going to get to eat appreciably quicker unless he goes right to the front, but thats not the point of it all...the 'buzz' they get is from getting away with doing they know they shouldnt do, & shouldnt get away with. Its the same with a lot of Littering, with a lot of Jaywalking, with a lot of Mugging/Burglary/Theft/Assault..... & it varies only in DEGREE from Murder, Mass-Murder, & even arranging for planes to crash into the WTC, in my belief (& I AM in a position to put forward such a theory....)

I apologise if the comparison offends or upsets anyone....it might seem very wrong to compare something like this with the actions of O.B.L. but some of the aspects of his character have EXACTLY the same root, though there are many more signifcant ones that prompted the attacks & his other terrorist activity.

Another factor they have in common is hating Authority... & anyone with the power to prevent them from behaving in the way they want is an 'Authority figure'

His verbal attacks on an 'Inner Clique' are of course out of resentment that he's not part of it... other folks banding together in a group of friends is a conspiracy against him. The idea that others band together as a group who simply enjoy each others company is an alien concept to him, cos he has never been in that position, cos he has no social skills & therefore isn't inclused in any sociable grouping of that sort. Understandable really, as he sees himself as being superior to them, having never learned the lesson as a young child that he ISN'T the centre of the Universe. I'd posit the possibility that he is maybe an only child too. (Apologies to others here, & everywhere, who are also in the position of being an only child....they have, of course, learned the lesson in other ways than having a sibling)

Well, I have to admit I'm bored with typing this now... nothing is going to change with this person unless we COULD put them back in a Class of 7 year olds & let them work their way upwards again in hopes that this time it will make them a functional Adult...how many times would we be willing to do that though, if it wasnt working, before we give up, say 'Fuckit' & just shove him back up the junction of his Mothers legs?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Deda
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM

Don't overlook that note under Myths -- Elders have powers against the devil and witches! And clearly staying power against geets, I mean gits, I mean unwelcome guests.

I think that Pinkfiddle and Sinsull BOTH deserve medals for getting MAs. I was working on one (in Classics, mostly Latin lit) but finally gave up, decided I really didn't have the energy or the fire in the belly, or whatever it was going to require. (I was 50ish when I started it, 52 now.) I still have one paper to finish up and then I'm out of Academia. These high achievers really impress me and deserve high praises, much credit. Brava, Bravo.

Pinkfiddle, I haven't been here long, myself, but if folk music is really a strong interest and an important piece of your life, don't leave. This place has value for you. It would be like giving up a career around horses because of a particularly obnoxious fly. Here's the thing to remember about people who are talking about you, whether for good or bad: sooner or later they stop. That's really all you need to know about them.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 08:33 PM

Hi Louisa. Cookieless member has nailed it squarely. The motivation to strike out and hurt somebody because it gives you pleasure, is the same in the schoolyard, on an internet forum, or at the fuse end of a bomb. Only the results are different.

Just try to laugh it off. Mudcat is infinitely friendlier than REAL life....and that is because of what brought the vast majority of us together......MUSIC.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 01:47 AM

Getting my Master's Degree has eliminated, well nearly, my urge to read. So I play a lot of music. I'd love to read your Thesis -

Steve

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: SeanM
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 02:35 AM

I find the 'cat to be an incredibly friendly site.

Then again, I don't read anonymous posts unless later correspondence between people I respect suggests that an anonymous guest had something relevant to say. Other than that, unless I'm in the mood to see the most puerile and disgusting side of humanity, I scroll right on past.

M

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 02:42 AM

I guess I don't understand why people want to hurt others. I suspect I'm insensitive sometimes and have always posted my e-mail where people can find it and tell me so. So far only one has on the boards I participate in. That's why I joined here after being a posting reader for a year. I don't really see why people don't join, this place isn't a spam producer.

Having said all that, Pinkfiddle, the hell with those who bug you. A certain amount of thick skin is required in the music world. Screw those who envy you so much that thay try to hurt you. Sniveling persons who had problems with personality development at an early age. Refuse to allow their toilet training problems be yours.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 05:10 AM

I'm drifting here, but so what. But "Cookieless Member" - isn't that just a great mudname? Sort of potentially rude but not quite defined.

As for the kind of thing that has been getting to pinkfiddle, I think it's best to think of it as weather rather than anything, and not to take it personally. "It's pissing down again today" you might say, and that can be annoying - but you don't waste time getting cross with the weather itself, or think you are somehow at fault yourself. You just put up a brolly and do what you were planning, or stay indoors and do something else.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 05:20 AM

It reminds me of the phenomenon, prevalent in some parts of the UK, of playing non-stop music on the breaker channel of CB radio. The most incomprhensible thing is what they get out of it,when they can't see our reactions to their infantile behaviour. At least on this forum they sometimes get the satisfaction of a response when someone cracks, and responds to their uninformed utterances. Yes I've given in and done it myself, and although sometimes I'm secretly pleased with my wounding response, I suspect that it's falling on stony ground,and I shouldn't have reacted in the first place. Another sad thing is that when you confront people with these character flaws, and ask them why they do it, the usual answer is "I don't know". So perhaps the most appropriate response is pity, coupled with the phone number of a good analyst.
Failte....Jock

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Sourdough
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 06:34 AM

I stopped reasding the trolling threads a ways back as the Anonymous Poster refined his technique to establish discord, So after several weeks, I decided to read this thread. It's been kind of fun. It turns out that "He Who Must be Anonymous" has been playing his one-string instrument so long, running through a scale of limited notes including "inner clique", "close minded", "elite", and "unfriendly" all sung in the key of P (for patronizing) that it has lost its power to charm. As I read through the posts, I had a couple of thoughts. HWMBA has kept this song up for so lohg now that there are a lot of new people in "the inner clique" since he started. That kinds of weakens his argument about exclusivity of The Inner Clique". It's open to whomever wants to post as a part of a diaglogue, not produce a harrangue.

The other thing that struck me was that there were several anonymous posts in this thread that were clearly heartfelt and articulate. Although I didn't agree with some things said by them, I don't need to, that's what a dialogue is.

The thread does show that readers tend not to anonymous hostile posts very seriously. That one particular tune has become somewhat boring. Luckily, the responses aren't.

Sourdough

For what its worth, I particularly liked many of the points Big Mick made.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:13 AM

Big Mick is one of the best bushes around, judging from the picture. I just wann know how he got so many berries and whether this affects his performance! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 11:26 AM

It doesn't matter how many stinging comments you can get in. The objective of a troll is to get you to fight - with them or someone else. Poke it with a stick, and see if it moves. Zinger posted: troll's objective met.

Once you sense that the person you're arguing with is basing their opinions on 1)delusions, or 2)lies, it's best to quit the game. Their delusions or lies will change to be whatever they need to support their "argument," and yours will probably still be based on facts which don't change. You can't keep up.

In an argument (or a thesis, for that matter), support for an idea is required. You state an opinion, then you provide evidence to support that opinion. When you read trolling comments, you soon realise the support is either non-existant, consists of more of their own opinions, or the connection between the facts and their assertions/opinions makes no sense whatsoever.

The conclusion you come to is that the poster is someone who simply wants to see their words on the screen, even when they don't really have anything to say. They want to have some effect on a person or persons. They've found one thing in life that's worthy of their efforts, and that thing is being obnoxious.

It's hard to get angry at trolls when I think about what's behind all the trolling. I look at what they choose to do with their time here, and wonder how miserable their lives must be to choose baiting others. I wonder if they go through life collecting grudges and throwing out all the good things to make room. Perhaps one day, grudges will be all they have left. It's sad to think about, but they choose their own path.

I think the people who leave here, and post indignant goodbye rants about their disillusionment, are grudge-collectors. Depending on what actions (if any) they believe their grudges justify, they can (and probably have) become some of our anonymous trolls. It's a shame that they let those grudges have so much power over them.

There are more of us here who collect friends. We thrive on kindnesses and the magic that happens when we touch each other's hearts. We forgive perceived wrongs, because we choose love over our need to be right. We share feelings in story and song. There are bad things in the world, but unless we let them destroy the sense of wonder we have when we find something beautiful, we win.

It's all here, the good and the bad. What folks find here depends on what they look for.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:17 PM

Well, McGrath,Cookieless Member is a better Mudcat name (and situation, I'd guess) than Memberless Cookie ...

Cookieless Member's analysis is good because narcissism (he didn't call it that,but he gave a good definition) is at the heart of this kind of poopy behavior. It's a personality that's developed (or fails to develop) even before the age of 7 and is the source of so much problematic behavior in our society -- spousal abuse, stalking, etc. And I hadn't even considered it before, but terrorism is a sort of group narcissism, a Me and the Other oreientation that's at the heart of narcissism, writ large: "You either feel and think what I feel and think or you don't deserve to exist..."

As I understand it (in my limited way and in extremely simplistic terms), narcissism grows out of a vacuum (physical or emotional) in the relationship with the father, or an abusive relationship with the father, and is characterized by a disgust with and hatred for the mother, the female principle, because she failed to protect the child. I'd say that applies to the examples Cookieless Member mentioned.

ww

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:35 PM

Yep, & such an attitude, I strongly suspect, has links with Mysogynism, though I havent seen any research supporting that notion.

I have to say I feel pleased that people have picked up so much on my comments. Considering what I was saying, I think I expected some strong reactions against, simply because I was saying something that is quite harsh, rather than simply pitying the Guest in question.

(& I'm also happy that I seem (I HOPE) to have covered all my bases quite well, & not offended others who might be an only child).

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:47 PM

Well CM, I'm an only child and I'm too stupid to be offended I guess. Whatever it is y'all are talkin' about sounds real good and I wish all of you the best when you write your thesis on this. Send me a copy huh? I like having things around that make me look smart......like my collection of small print "Dick and Jane" books!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 12:54 PM

It's interesting that we all seem to assume that the people who go in for this are male. My gut feeling is that this is actually the case. Maybe that interpretation by WyoWoman and Cookieless Member provide a rationale for thinking that.

As for whether talking about the poor sods is some kind of reward which could encourage them, maybe so. But on my analogy with weather, you're going to get weather whatever you do. You don't quarrel with weather or get into fights, but talking about weather is pretty customary where I live anyway.

And sometimes we even get good weather. That'd be nice wouldn't it? Do you ever get anti-flamers - people who post anonymous compliments and so forth. I'd have thought it'd be just as much fun, and just as good a way of getting attention.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 01:04 PM

Hehehehe...

but youre a member of the 'Inner Clique', 'Spaw..thats like having a 'Family' round you, I'd suspect.......*G*

(& lest anyone thinks different, I'm CERTAINLY not in it... I havent been footling around the 'cat for that long really)

I cant help but wonder what our 'Guest' thinks makes someone a member of the 'Inner Clique'....(& I really wish there was something else by which it could be referred to....calling it the 'Inner Clique' to my mind, almost makes it sound like the 'sinister', elistist group that this 'Guest' believes it to be.....being as how he's too Sociopathic & such a social misfit as to not realise that groups of friends 'coagulate' together in ANY setting. I mean that its a normal human social thing for like-minded folks with common interests to flock together...)

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Genie
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 01:22 PM

Good one, WyoWoman! ("...Memberless Cookie...")

Pinkfiddle, congrats on finishing your Master's.  (Hope it serves you better in the long-term employment market than my post-graduate degree has.  Worth having done it, nevertheless!)

I finally found an easy way of avoiding being cookieless (usually works, anyway).  I bookmarked my Personal Page.  If I enter Mudcat by going to that bookmark, I am automatically signed in.  (In the rare event that my "cookie has expired," I am already at the sign-in site and all I have to do is enter my name and password.)  This way, I don't have to access Mudcat and then go to the sign-in place, etc.   Now I am almost always signed in, unless I am on a different computer  or deliberately signing in anonymously so I can heckle folks.

Just kidding about the heckling, but once in a while I post an innocuous question, lyric request, or comment under some silly pseudonym such as Wilda Beest or some other dumb name.  I'm with Cookieless Member on this one.  Yes, I think it's rude and cowardly to throw verbal stones from the cover of anonymity.  But not all questions or comments need to be identified with their source.  Sometimes it's irrelevant, period.  At other times, one may want a point to be evaluated on its own merits, uncontaminated by association with its source.   At still others, a post may contain a personal story that one wants to share without everyone knowing those details of one's personal life.  (I might want to tell a funny story about my [hypothetical] sex life because it's an interesting  story, without folks knowin whom the story is about.   Being anonymous is not necessarily heinous.

Anyway, Pinkfiddle, most of us don't bite, so please ignore the ones who do.

Dr. J

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 01:49 PM

I think that Max, awhile back referred to a "Core Group" of "regulars" that he tended to listen to more about changes. He phrased it that this was the group that was always around and most often involved in doing things from answering requests, to adding tunes in Midi, to just general BSing.....and it's obviously true. The makeup of that "Core Group" changes as their ability to participate changes and ANYONE can be a part of it. Amos for instance is a part of that group although he spent a long period off the 'Cat. Same with WyoWoman.

New folks become a part of it all the time and others drift away. Perfectly natural. The "Clique" thing IS intended to portray something sinister as though Max and this entire is site is coerced into actions only allowed by the this group. The idea is ludicrous and is obviously not the case. The basis of it lies in the "Core Group" and that there are a few in the core who are here all the time.......Me, Sorcha, kat, BillD., Mario, etc......We have a regular meeting to plot the course of Mudcat and stomp out that which we don't like BTW..........

Bottom line? This is a damn friendly site for one of it's size. Growth has garnered both amazing input and complete assholes for the Mudcat. I suppose you can expect that with the growth.......and for all of those who do find it a friendly place, it's easy to get mad when someone says it isn't.........oh well...........

Liked Rick's comments and Amos' too....the stuff's getting to be old hat anymore....

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: harpgirl
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 02:13 PM

...just to distinguish myself from the person who used a word I love to bandy about, (you guess the word!)I will explain again that anyone who wishes membership in the inner clique need only send me a check for $50. It's really that simple....hg

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 03:23 PM

So, when is the next conspiritors meeting, Spaw? Will Paw and gang be there?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM

I think this was the quote from Max you are reffering to spaw:

There is a Mudcat clique, or core group, if you will. I call you the 1%ers. Half of my design efforts, functions, doodads, are for the 1%ers, half are for the other 99%. The 1%ers are so because they're here a lot, and they post a lot, not for any other reason than that. I ask more of you. I ask the 1%ers to simply represent us, the Mudcat, with pride, patience, empathy, tolerance, and love. I've seen some testiness lately. Don't you think I get pissed off? See me do much about it in the forum? You are the 1%, which means you are not the majority by far. Try not to forget about the other 99%.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 03:35 PM

Spaw:

I think what you're saying is that the fact that you extend the honorific to me, being the rasty bastard I am, is proof present that ANYONE can qualify. I'm not sure I want to join a clique with such low standards!!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 03:51 PM

I didn't want to belong either because my membership alone drags the prestige of membership somewhere below "Rock Bottom." Then of course Amos, there is you......at which point the whole thing looks as being totally without any form of redeeming social value............This has got to be the worst clique in the world.......Sorch, schedule a meeting! We have to raise the standards somehow.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Tweed
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 04:01 PM

You guys better do something quick, as now you have Blues folk roaming the grounds and adjacent properties! By the Way, I've found the MudCat to be very friendly and helpful and I'm also an only child, figure that one out!;~)
Tweed

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 04:08 PM

Well Tweed, I saw that picture of that Rooski mando and I figure your Communist leanings are drawing you here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:49 PM

I don't see it as right to call them arseholes (or assholes for that matter.) Indispensable part of the human anatomy, shouldn't be disparaged in that way.

Anonymity - nothing wrong with that, and the easiest thing to achieve. There are occasions when it makes sense too. But sticking a one-off label after the GUEST (like Wilda Beest for example) doesn't in any way reduce anonymity, it just makes it easier keeping track in a discussion, and is thus a courteous thing to do. Wearing masks and fancy dress at a party could be fun, but it's better if different people wear different masks and different costumes.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:59 PM

Given the fact that about everyone seems to belong to the feckin' inner circle, it seems to me that the much more exclusive club to belong to is the "stay anonymous and at the same time be a fecking load of shite by trying to hurt other people" clique. Dammit.........it ain't fair. I have worked hard to attain the exalted status of "McFart Knowitall" and "overweight drunken Irish guy". It seems to me I should be allowed into this very exclusive group. .............. Wait...............I would have to give up all my friends, sit around behind a computer touching myself.........have a miserable life.......................Be mad at my mother for not changing my diaper enough.........start pulling wings off butterflies.......and give up exercising my talent, because they don't have any......Nah, I think I will just stay where I am. When's that meeting Sorch????

Mick

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: MMario
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM

aw, crap! Did I miss another Inner Clique meeting? I'm gonna lose my membership, wanna bet?

Henry - and other guests. Our anonymous poster tries desperatly to imply that there is a prejudice at the mudcat against guests in general. I think anyone willing to look over threads in any depth will be willing to concede that that just is not so. There is (in my opinon - and note I say OPINION) a marked feeling against anonymous guests who make rude, disparaging comments. But regulars and guests alike will also call out members who go overboard in the hostility and/or paranoi department. There are regular posters here who are not members - for one reason or another. There are also very occasional posters who are members. It is not so much whether or not you are a member - more whether or not you are willing to adhere to minimal standards of social conduct. And as others have said - the forum is much like 3D life ~ sometimes there is rough weather - othertimes it is clear sailing.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:43 PM

"minimal standards of social conduct."

I LIKE that Mario. Will you talk to Spaw, or will I?

Rick

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:59 PM

OK, guys, next meeting will be February 30th, my place. The menu includes Flies Without Wings, Burnt Trolls, Guest a la Flambe, Sauteed Assholes, and for dessert, Doughnuts Policia a la Russki. OK? Ya'll be here, now heah? Appetizers may or may not include Possum Livers, Asparagus Quiche (for the Vegetarians), BBQ'ed MaxBalls fried in bronze, Guinness A La Mode, and for a special treat, Road Kill Mountain Oysters marinated in a special edition of Wyoming Pissant Beer--these brought to you courtesy of Robin2. Vegetarians/Vegans please give advance notice of attendance--your needs can be met.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 10:03 PM

Hey Sorch, I notice tha Gnu is back and active so I'd say get in a case or so of Turkey Turd Beer too. And BTW, just for fun before the meetings start, I'll have a few dozen tiples and noseflutes delivered from the NYCFTTS to use.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 10:05 PM

Louisa, this is wrong place to look for symphonious sympathy

Louisa you are a lousy loser, your thesis is crap, it will never pass muster.

In other words, eat shit, fuck off and die.

Any one as thin skinned as your appearance don't belong in the prickly pear patch.

Mario you ain't got a snowball's chance of making the inner circle. Katlaughing with a MC posting list so long the server cannot load it, is an example of one of the favorites, the Mudcat was built for her, and her likes. She is a goddess within Max's world. Those she likes stay, those who cross her leave.

Guest

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 10:10 PM

Can do, Spaw. Please send 3 doz nose flutes, 2 doz Tiples, and 8 doz. Amish pitchfork tuners to my addy, asap. If gnu is attending, perhaps we should have Grilled Gnu Steak available also? (Ostrich as a second choice?) Ostrich steak available only 12 miles from my house. Still waiting to hear from the Veggie contingent......Perhaps Grilled Tofu a la Gargoyle????

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 10:57 PM

HEY KID!!!! Please don't leave. 'Cause I would miss you when you're gone. CHEERS and HUGs, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:56 AM

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:22 AM

Your scholarly interest is very welcome here, and would add alot to discussions. As we're saying, just ignore the flamers. The many good folks here know what's what - a flamer can't bring you down in our eyes, so as unpleasant as it is to read, just concentrate on the good stuff that vastly outweighs the inevitable Net bad apples. Nothing new said, just want to throw in my vote of confidence.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 07:18 AM

Aren't I adorable? Don't you all wish you could be like me? Sometimes I could hug myself.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:32 AM

Hmm, maybe it's time to revive this old chestnut or its successor here. They take an age to load, but maybe one could become a permathread that self-flushes every few days.
And, Louisa, congrats on the MA. I've just sent off for details from the Open University in the UK to do an MA and, gulp, the discipline involved is daunting. 'Nuff respect!

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,pinkfiddle
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:44 AM

Thanks to everyone who posted with votes of confidence. My faith has been restored and I'm not going to leave - will reset cookie at some point. I don't have regular access to a computer at the moment.

Of course I realise that people like this unwelcome guest are going to turn up on an open site - just like in the real world, and I should ignore his/her comments. Was annoyed when I originally posted, but now couldn't really care less what this person thinks. Obviously a deeply sad individual with a lot of spare time on his/her hands.

Part of my MA involved interviewing folk musicians and singers about their thoughts on the revival and the contemporary folk scene, and one of them spoke of his love for the people on the folk scene and the way they interact, suggesting that a sense of 'folk camaraderie' exists. Despite occasional idiots trying to spoil things, from my experience of festivals, sessions, clubs and Mudcat, there is certainly rings true for me as well.

Re: getting my MA online - this something I will endevaour to sort out after Xmas

Thanks pf

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,pinkfiddle
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:33 AM

Whoops, sorry about the typos - should say 'this certainly rings true for me as well' and 'endeavour'

pf

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:14 PM

Looking forward to it eagerly, pinkfiddle!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Fortunato
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:21 PM

Pinkfiddle, if you're still around, my congrats to you as well. I took my masters late in life while working full time and I know the sacrifices that are made. When you come here to visit us you might remember this 'California' Koan:

The bad news is there is bad stuff. The good news is you don't have to take notice.

Happy Holidays and best wishes, Fortunato.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 10:48 PM

Mudcat Co-Conspirators, UNTIE!!!

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 12:38 AM

Spaw - If you really want to raise the standards around here, I should think that a few more threads about William Shatner would help, combined with a generally more respectful and appreciative attitude toward the WSSBA, and an admission that "Space Oddity" is one of the 10 greatest songs ever recorded.

That would be an excellent start!

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 06:27 AM

Unfriendly site? Absolutely. Pink - don't listen to morons who make personal silly attacks like that. But the site in general IS a rather unfriendly enviroment from a group of people who hold themselves above high and mighty over everything and everyone else. Funny part is, they're really only patting themselves on the back because no one else will.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:15 AM

So what's the problem with that Guest? Anyone who has ever been in business knows you have to make money from your friends because your enemies won't deal with you.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:24 AM

You don't want to listen to me either.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:33 AM

Oh, sorry, Guest....please, say it again...

...but DO try & make a little more sense this time...

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,andi
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:53 AM

I used to post here, I stopped earlier this year after being here only a month. I found that most folks here had little to no tolerance for those of us who simply enjoy music and are not endevering to make a carrer out of it. While some folks were helpful (notably, George), I was basically told (maybe not in so many words but the idea certainly came across) to sod off. Inner Clique? yeah, it includes the folks whom Mick and others called Elders and those of you who have anough musical background to distinguish between Great Big Sea's version of a song from Son's of Maxwell version of the same song with out calling it "Great Big Sea's Mari-Mac" or " Son's of Maxwell's Mari-Mac" ( hold on for the flames if you make *that mistake!) I like lurking but posting is something i found best left to those of you who actually know music andi

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST, Cookieless Member
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:14 AM

Well, I'd have STARVED long ago if I tried to make a career out of music....

I'm here just cos I enjoy it, I am seldom able to make much contribution (other than to admire the talent &/or the knowledge of the people I see here) but have NEVER felt unwelcome, & frankly it surprises me that others have.

Now that might sound like praising the place too highly, but I am, truthfully, telling it as I've found it.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:52 AM

I've never found musical knowledge (or lack of) to be a problem round here. In my experience, most people will gladly share what knowledge they have with no "I know more than you" attitude.

Where I find matters tend to go wrong is that responses here can be based on who you are. Here is an example of the sort of thing I'm talking about:

Yesterday, a thread was opened with the question:

how many of you guys play your guitar while you are talking on the cat?

OK maybe not the most inspiring question ever raised at Mudcat but still a polite question and a couple of us did try and make something of it and answer the question. The next step was someone came in and posted:

I fart a lot while on the 'Cat. I fart a lot when I'm playing. I fart a lot generally. What can we learn from this?

Now if that post had been made by a Guest, people would almost certainly have jumped on the poster's back but the most was made by spaw to which the normal reaction would be a few "fart related" posts by a few people here all sort of congratulating themselves on their wit and indicating what a funny man spaw is.

I guess it's great for those with that sort of sense of humour but I for one do not have it and as it happens several times find it gets tedious. Worse than that there are times when I find it plain rude.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:24 AM

Fee fi fo fum I smell paranoia
Failte....Jock

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From:
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:52 AM

I've been around this site on and off for 5 years now and on the whole it is an extremely friendly place to hang out. I've seen real out-flowings of compassion; even been on the receiving end a couple of times and it feels real good. A few members'posts get my back up occasionally, but hey, that happens in 3D land too. The anonymous guest postings are best ignored if they're obvious flame bait.

All in all this is still the best site I've found on the Internet for discussing everything under the sun...oh, and music occasionally!

Scott

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:36 PM

Yeah and it's still run by an unfriendly inner clique and you all know it!

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 07:48 PM

Dear Guest:

I'm sorry if you've been treated in an unfriendly fashion.

What was it you were trying to say when you were so rudely interrupted?

Maybe you should give it a second try?

Ya know -- 90% perspiration rule and all that?

A the Younger
Always a Younger, Never an Elder!

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:02 PM

I'm a real Nowhere Man

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 10:48 PM

Wow yer pinkness, did you open a container of nematodes, or what!?

Now me, I'm can be studiously dense (just ask my ex-wife) so I almost NEVER get it when I am being insulted and I don't think I have even been flamed, flammed maybe but not flamed. Life is short, more for some than others. I think that you should just have fun and try to be kind whenever you can. Unless you pack a gun, then be whatever you can be.

CB

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: marty D
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 11:54 PM

What I can't understand is that the complainers, both anonymous and familiar never change their tune, year after year. Wouldn't any SANE person simply leave for good if they were dissatisfied with the level of friendliness or profanity or whatever? Hope I never get so lonely I have to stay in a place I don't like. Sorry for being unfriendly, but sometimes you just have to shake your head.

Now Day Traders' discussion groups, THAT'S unfriendly!

marty

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:53 AM

I have concluded that While some folks here are nice many are A--Holes, the Spell checkers, the OUR (not your) Mudcatters, The Know it alls, and The Flamers w/ and especially w/o Guest attached to their name. I used to visit more frequently, now I just Stop by every now and again. There is always a thread like this - winter , spring, summer, or Fall.What does that tell you?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:02 AM

That you come back often?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:18 AM

That you don't learn from experience?
Failte....Jock

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:25 AM

No guys, it means that you are too thick headed to know what this site is like to the "outsiders" and that you also don't give a crap. MARTY - don't bother shaking your head, it isn't the SAME guest that posts this thread - it is differnet people doing it. Now you can stop shaking and think - wow , catters really ARE a bunch of dicks sometimes.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:00 AM

Well, after reading all these msgs, I will admit I am just a lover of music, not a musician at all.

If anyone has a problem with that, or just wants to post flames and crap, I have an idea.

You can find me sitting at the bar of the Kildare House in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Usually sitting with a red-headed freak of a musician named Clinton Hammond. If you want to talk trash here on the 'Cat, meet me at the bar, be a real man, or a reasonably drawn facimile, and we'll deal with it.

"Just see how dumb the average person is, and then realize that half the people, are dumber than that." - George Carlin

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:13 AM

On the whole it's a lot friendlier in here than it is out there. And that isn't true of a lot of internet discussion venues.

I am very grateful to the people who make it so, both Max and his hands-on helpers, and the general run of Mudcatters too, especially those who work pretty hard sometimes at keeping it level and helpful and lively, and helping it recover when it gets holed below the waterline.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From:
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 09:48 AM

To nameless guest who posted at 6.25 am above,

This site obviously isn't too terrible to outsiders as we seem to keep getting a regular flow of new members coming on in. Some longtime members could do with showing a bit more tolerance at times to nameless guests that do come along asking reasonable questions, but nameless guests which do that are few and far between. I haven't found any other un-moderated site that is as good as this one. Biggest problem with this site is it's so warm and friendly most of the time that people end up feeling too safe here and then open up more than is probably wise on the internet, thus leaving the way open for some heartless troll to really hurt them.

Scott

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:28 PM

I'm pretty much with Jock on the friendliness of this site as an unmoderated site. I also agree that there are always new comers here but the site also puts some people off...

I'll use my mum, Pip as an example. She has often read threads here but gives up because her tolerance for nonsense (I mean things like diverting a thread for a few jokes amongst a few people) is rather less than mine. Her reponse is just to give up and not read for a week or more - different to me who mostly just skips over that sort of thing (although can be seething inside - the fox-hunting thread was a recent one that got me like that).

To answer Marty's question on why keep coming back, I can offer one perspective. There is a lot of good stuff in Mudcat and a lot of good people. This includes "inner clique members" some of whom make excellent posts - take spaw for example, I have read somw highly informative music related posts from him and other extremely thoughtful posts... so there is enough worth while for me (although at one point my frustrations some of which were "behind the scenes" ones did reach a point where I decided to quit) so I stay but protest - or really pass comments when threads like this one invite views - I can't remember ever starting a "what's wrong with Mudcat" thread - often, I only start to post the more negative side when I start reading the "how wonderful this place is/we are" type posts - just pushes me one step too far...

The first and biggest gripe of mine has not raised it's head for a few weeks. That is the BS volume, etc. one. I still believe combined forum is the wrong root but things seem to be improving. I noticed spaw give a link to Tweed's site where he has spent some time and him showing some enthusiasm for a chat program. Susan has a prayer forum which I believe is thriving, etc. Moves may be being taken to spread the load a little and I see this as good. There is also the Annexe where I think some think I'm trying to launch a "take over bid" but it is no more than another opening/possibility - I'd like to see more... better still I'd like to see Mudcat absorbing some of this...

The second one does come down to the "inner clique" and the sort of thing I mentioned in an example in a previous post. I have nothing against humour or profanity but we do have situations that are repetitive and predictable. Is it really right that 1% should divert threads in the name of humour for example - what about the 1% (and probably far more) that are trying to enjoy the thread as it stands?

While on gripes, I will mention another although I still don't know whether it ammuses me or makes me sad - it produces mixed feelings and I keep telling myself I am just being over-sensitive:

Programming has been a hobby of mine for a while and the Annexe I have had a great oppertunity to play and try to develop to suit users requests. The system is not complete but I (with the help of ideas from others) have indroduced quite a few ideas - On Sun/Mon I responded to request, introduced a reverse listing, a sort of message since last visit (mine works on the topic listing - just one page but with an asterisk against posts that have been added) and the last poster as well as the author of a thread. I also seem to have come up with a system that is up 99.9% of the time (I'm not saying it would handle Mudcat load - I would be using a different database, probably different O/S, etc if I was aiming for that - just saying it meets its objectives)...

I get little in the way of feedback of any sort but I think the package is pretty good, is stable and to date (fingers crossed) I have a good record at introducing user requests. OK I don't ask for thanks but...

Sometime in June, I saw a thread here saying 2 weeks to go for changes with the usual "great Max" comments yet nthing has happened here to date - I've delivered my promises. Thanksgiving time, I provided a system that worked and was used by quite a few while Mudcat (which like it or not has stability/reliability problems) ground to a halt. I think I saw one mention of the Annex helping some and loads of "Thanks Max" for a system that failed yet again...

The conclusion I reached was that it doesn't really matter how well something is done - what really matters is who you are. Makes me wonder about the value of the "Great Max" comments and more so about the people who make them...

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:56 PM

Simple, Jon. You would never have had the opportunity to create a Mudcat Annexe, or get the ideas for the type of programming you do, or have had the venue which brought you the names of folkies and bluesies worldwide, had it not been for Max and his wonderful site. It is the same for all of us. The possibilities and friends that derived from this place are amazing. And it came because a young man in Pennsylvania started a hobby site that became something much bigger. And because he keeps it going at great personal expense, and with a great investment of time, and with a great investment on the floor space of his home. In other words, it isn't a competition. Max is revered because of all of the above.

I, for one, appreciate greatly your efforts, as well. I entered the Annexe for the first time and found it to be a nice supplement to The Mudcat. I believe I congratulated you.

Mick

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:57 PM

It may be perverse of me, but I feel more comfortable when things break down every now and again, and then get better again. Systems that never break down leave me with a worry that someday they suddenly will vanish away.

And I'm very grateful to Jon for the existence and the reliability of the Annexe, especially for those occasions.

"spaw gave a link to Tweed's site" - I missed that. Gissa a link, someone.

As for drift, humorous or not, that's a price (if we don't like it) that we pay for the flexibility and openness of the Cat - and I think it's well worth it. I can't see a way of avoiding it, other than having some monitor come in and slap our wrists, or a mobbing culture of people nagging each other for getting out of line. Either of which itself would put a lot of people off coming here.

And I imagine Max has had rather a lot of worries in his mind recently, what with his business crisis.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:09 PM

Mick, you do raise a good point. It is fair to say that I had read and still do use places other than Mudcat but it is equally true to say that Mudcat and people here did provide the motivation. It is also relevant to say that some of the changes at the Annexe were due to either me or someone else picking up on ideas from Mudcat - IMO, from a design perspective (or my attemt at one) there is a hell of a lot of good features here.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:13 PM

McGrath, I thought it was spaw but it looks to me as if it was Tweed who provided the link. here it is

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:15 PM

No. Mudcat is not a friendly site.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:40 PM

Just read again... McGrath, I see drift and humour as being positives here. To me, where it ceases to be positive is where it reaches a point that I can predict who is likely to follow up the drift and the type of flow.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:03 PM

I'm a real Nowhere Man

You are here a lot - and here is somewhere. And I certainly don't get your point -

Copy Big Mick's comments here for me also. Verbatim please!!

Steve

Place is as friendly as you want it to be - I like it :-)

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST,Gusty
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:04 PM

IMHO, the Mudcat is friendly most of the time. There have been some pretty caustic, harsh posts between some folks, and once in a while, someone gets unduely picked on. I myself have felt a little unwelcome here, to the extent that I withdrew as a member, but that's just my fragile ego coming through, I suppose. I still love the 'Cat. It's by far the best forum, music-related or otherwise, that I've come across on the web. Hope it never disappears.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:32 PM

Just one more comment (I hope) from what I've read here so far. Mick, just for information, do an Internet search on "usenet".

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:05 PM

Jon, I think folks are simply forgiving when it comes to Mudcat being down, and are appreciative of the fact it exists at all. Max has a lot of other irons in the fire. I believe if the Annexe went down for a few days, regular readers and posters would say "thanks" to you when it came back up. As a matter of fact, didn't that actually happen when they switched your server?

I DID try out the "newest-on-top" option at the Annexe, and really like it. Guess I must have just t-mailed my thanks to you. (That's "telepathy-mailed.) I apologise - should have written my thanks in those letter and word thingies.

I believe that the more places there are to branch out, the better. When I first started reading Mudcat, it was pretty much music, with a bit of community-related discussion. (Spaw being in hospital, folks traveling and meeting, etc.) Now, there are almost unofficial sub-forums. There's still the music, but there also seems to be 1) a political debate forum; 2) a forum about the forum (what's right/wrong with Mudcat). Many threads wind up being in this category whenever someone bitches about off-topic stuff like Mudcat group dynamics or the fact the thread isn't going according to their vision of way the thread should go, and everybody else jumps off-topic to follow them down that well-worn path; 3) a "life's little problems" forum, which includes sub-sub headings of medical, emotional, ethical, among others; and 4) a "people and community" forum which includes birthdays, marriages, meetings, and other events. Most threads fall mostly into one of these headings, but often cross over into more than one, and MAY even include music.

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that others have a problem with it. I'm not so worried about the folks who identify so strongly with Mudcat that they hang around and attempt to sic the demon of their disillusionment on everybody else. They have a problem we don't have the power to do anything about. I care about the people who just leave because there isn't enough of interest to them to stick around. My beliefs: The more the "music-only" types leave, the less music discussion. The less music discussion, the more "music-mostly" types leave - it seems to be a spiral. It's not the added BS that chases them off, it's primarily the lack of music discussion. I don't know that we have any power over that, either. Maybe one person can be convinced to not post everything they think of, but how do you get a few hundred folks to maybe think about not posting everything they think of? All it takes is a few folks giving into temptation that ONE time. Discipline won't happen here unless it's enforced discipline - rules and moderators - and I do NOT want to see that happen. I doubt Max has the slightest inclination to seriously consider those things, anyway.

I don't need much stucture. Some folks do, and the unlimited variety of subjects here must drive them nuts. I believe having more places to discuss varied topics is good. I don't know what's in store in the future, but what Mudcat could become, based on steadily increasing participation, our collective purposes, and our willingness or unwillingness to consider others, ranges from disasterous to magical.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:18 PM

I thought it was friendly. Then I hear talk of gnu steaks ! Not bad enough but Spaw mentions TTB ! Goodness gracious me. No guest should be served TTB without at least a warning. THAT'S unfriendly.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:15 PM

To get back to the original question that pinkfiddle asked:

Yes, mudcat is about as friendly as it gets.

But if someone like 'pinkfiddle' with her tissue paper thin skin wants to start bawling like a baby because somebody didn't like her thesis, then perhaps she should stay at home and live inside a piece of cotton wool.

Her absense from this thread suggests that she has

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: marty D
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:25 PM

Sorry for touching a nerve, anonymous constantly testy GUEST, but I doubt if your number is legion. I'm pretty sure it's just you. (the really angry posts anyway)

marty

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:44 PM

I think Mudcat is friendly but some Guests just kike to make yruoubke, i think we shoulf just ignore them.john

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:04 AM

Mudcat is whatever you need it to be.
You just have to take the time to find it.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:11 AM

Mudcat, without the flaming,trolling, sniping, name-calling, baiting, complaining, whining, bitching, nit-picking, and general false-issue trouble making by cowardly 'guests', would BE a 97% friendly site.

Someone..(or two or three) has really gotten a burr under their saddle and simply cannot distinguish banter among friends from 'inner-cliqueism'

....It is sad and stupid and totally reprehensible to spend that much time trying to create rancor in a place where so much goodness and help and joy ...and yes, happy silliness, have been shared......

'nuff said

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:37 AM

Spoken like a true elder, Bill....LOL. It is why you are one of the best in these parts. Well said, my good friend.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:51 AM

Bill, I think it may just be someone who wants everyone to be as miserable as they are. They're the ones who have to deal with their petty, childish behavior. It is VERY hard for me to imagine a somewhat responsible adult acting like this, which is also why I can't bring myself to take anything they say seriously, or flame 'em back. What they're doing to themselves is far worse than anything I'm capable of. I look in the mirror and see someone who tries to behave in ways I can be relatively proud of. They see someone who has given up on any sense of honor, and enjoys trying to hurt people. What the hell kind of horrorshow must that be?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 09:51 AM

Bill, I see it as banter between a group of friends but between one specific group of friends.

Believe it or not, I do have a sense of humour (mine can be a bit dark at times), enjoy chatting on a variety of subjects, etc. Seem to remember having some good banter and very enjoyable with you on ICQ during MCR...

My guess is that many of us do enjoy chat but choose not to litter the forum with it on a regular basis.

Jon

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:29 PM

Jon, maybe that "one specific group of friends" is what makes some feel uncomfortable or excluded. I don't think exclusion's the problem, though. I think some folks may just be uncomfortable with banter, and that if they don't/can't join in, they aren't welcome. Then again, I believe most newcomers will hang around and get the feel of the place before they judge it.

I've seen new folks just jump right into the banter many times, without the slightest hint of rejection. There are also plenty of folks who never join the banter, and some post exclusively on music. They "belong" just as much. Folks decide for themselves what they want to share with others.

Folks also decide what they want to get out of Mudcat. It's still that thing about taking what you want and leaving the rest. That it's futile to try to make the rest of the world behave the way they want is a lesson that some never learn. Attacks spawn retaliation, or, at the very least, a lack of respect. A person's own words and actions are what determine how they're treated here. If the whole world seems to be against someone, maybe it ain't the whole world that's messed up.

I still think honesty works better than anything else. "I wish you wouldn't joke around with me, because I don't feel comfortable...Did you mean to insult me? If so, why?" Of course, the GUEST flamer regulars seem to treat honesty as a threat, or they'd be trying to talk with people instead of at them. The friendships, the acts of kindness, the humor and the comfort level people feel here are something they - and no one else - have destroyed for themselves, but the place still has enough of a grip on them so they can't leave it alone.

For me, the disgruntled postings aren't even a drop in the bucket compared with all the good I've found here. I've met kindred spirits and cherished friends from all over the world. I've sung the sun up with them, and I've shared their joy in the music and in life. I've exchanged gifts of heart and mind. How could I possibly let anything make me leave that behind?

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:03 PM

Jeri, I certainly do not see exclusion as an issue even though I use the term "inner clique". I don't believe any of the "members" are like that. I'd sent this as a PM to someone earlier today but think it may be in order to post it (well I'm skipping the 1st paragraph) here as it probably explains some of my perspective better than many of my posts an reactions:

---

Realistically, Mudcat is a good site overall. I would be reluctant to use phrases like "the best on the Web" because I really do not know what is out there and I find it almost impossible to imagine that there are not similar communities in other areas of interest. Within music (IMO) Mudcat is vastly superior to any other resource I use but I still see problems here.

The problems - rows, etc. have existed since I've been here (3yrs?) and trends continue. Jeri noted a spiral in her reply to my most. This is something I agree with and find a worry. Rightly or wrongly (I obviously believe rightly) I see music as the "god" or single binding force here with other bits as being bonuses. The sad reality seems to me that the number of serious music posters does decline over time and that "nonsense" does play a big part in that and therefore carries an unacceptable toll. I know one could argue "it's their problem" but one could also try to think "are there ways to ease the situation?".

My first thought (and I am very pro community) is that the system is wrong and that a duel forum system would ease a lot of (recurring) tension. I think for Mudcat, my choice would be an open musical section and even go as far as member only for a community section where people could talk freely on other subjects without the worry of being attacked by one of the "nasties" - believe me, I do not enjoy seing someone getting ripped to shreads for "bearing their soul" here...

As a side issue, such an approach would have the added benifit of musical threads being easier to search for for visitors and arguably create a better impression for first time visitors - I can only speak for myself on that one but the first time I visited Mudcat (recommended to me by SingsIrish - is Mary still around?) I read a few BS threads and left. I visited again about a month later on the reccomendation of Jeri (someone I had made friends with via rec.music.celtic and still a very good friend) and ended up staying.

OK, the split won't happen here but I then think that because everything is effectivelly getting shoved down one narrow pipe, more thought should go into the treads themselves. There is lots of stuff I would like to talk about between people here that is not music related but I don't do it (although I now do in the Annexe) - why? in my case, its not for fear of being flamed, it's because I think "what would happen if everyone shared all thier interests, worries, happiness, etc. here all the while?" - the result IMO would be disastarous - music threads would be completely obscured...

I suspect I am not the only one that does not "chat" for that reason - there are only a handfull that do "chat" on a regular basis, the same ones that tend to come into threads and make the inane comments and I'm afraid I do see it as a matter of being inconsiderate and using the forum selfishly (although not a clique in any exclusive sense of the word - it's more a matter of a mindset/mentality - there is no one who would reject anyone amongst the group) and just wish, given the circumstances, more consideration was given by them towards others.

Oh well, enough of my views and ramblings...

Jon

---

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:11 PM

Mudcat is like the rest of the world...friendly, unfriendly, amusing, interesting, boring, downright hostile, tedious, hilarious, and all the rest.

Which one you perceive it as is mostly dependent on the mood you yourself are in at the time...and somewhat dependent on the mood some other people are in at the time.

Like the rest of the world...

Your own attitude is the most important thing that you bring here, and you are the victim or the beneficiary of precisely that.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM

Yes, I think Mudcat is a "friendly site" in that it welcomes everyone with open arms, minimal restrictions and several options for maintaining privacy if desired. Most of the people on the site are friendly, too! :^)

Since this thread is at well over 100 posts, I think that the friendly thing to do would be to continue this discussion on "part 2" of this thread. Here is the link to it: Is Mudcat a friendly site? Part 2

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:40 PM

Ekh. What a load. Just when I thought I couldn't hate America any more... Seriously, someone from a good country: Adopt me. ----Lepus Rex

Thanks to Jeri for the link to this site.

Subject: RE: Is Mudcat a friendly site?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 11:37 AM

I always thought Jeri was the smart Mudcatter. I couldn't have posted my trolls without her links.