Breaking in a guitar

Subject: Breaking in a guitar
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:36 PM

I have been told that a good way to break in a new guitar is to park it in front of a stereo, play music loudly for a long time,(preferably bluegrass).

This is supposed to cause the instrument to vibrate constantly thereby speeding up the "Curing, or breaking in period".

Any thoughts on this? Jeep

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:40 PM

i've heard some things like that but the music doesn't really have to be bluegrass, it can be anything, but the real way to break the guitar in is to play the hell out out it,cause it helps you get better and it is also fun. BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:42 PM

You bet: Always keep it tuned to concert pitch. That way, all the joints and wood will resonate perfectly and it will develope it's maximum tone. Keep it out in front of you where you will play several times each hour. Sing to it. Stroke it. Give loving thoughts to it. Tell it you it. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:45 PM

CHEERS DECKMAN. bob

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:52 PM

Yeh Yeh Yeh! I think we've 'gotta stop using each others names!. Me

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:54 PM

ok,

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:56 PM

What's that we used to say in High School ... I will if you will? Oh, never mind. CHEERS, me

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 07:59 PM

where did you go to high school? BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:01 PM

I'll e-mail you off line ... the FBI is still looking for me! My appologies for the thread creep! CHEERS Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:05 PM

cool

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:05 PM

Yes, parking in front of a speaker can really speed up the process, esp. if NONE of the resonating part (body) of the instrument touches anything. I have done this with fiddles and it cuts the break in time by a LOT!

Play, play, play works too, but can take forever and a day. (PS--it doesn't REALLY matter what you play to your guitar as long as what you play is in tune.)

Reason this works---told to me by the Concertmaster of 101 Strings, among other jobs he had---with acoustic instruments, the tonal qualities depend on the alignment of the molecules in the wood. Molecues are aligned by the sound they are vibrating to. If the sound is on pitch, the instrument will "learn" to be on pitch. If not, the instrument may NEVER learn pitch.

This is one of the best reasons not to start a rank beginner on a top of the line instrument, esp. if it doesn't have frets. The "bad sound" gets into the instrument and can take years to fix. Not a myth; ask a physicist.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:17 PM

Sorcha,how about if I park it on a guitar stand? If not, what would you recommend? Jim

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:21 PM

i believe a guitar stand would be ok, i keep all my guitars in one room where the music is constantly being played and i think that a guitar has a heart and a soul and it long and desires to be played, just as your fingers itch when you haven't played in a while, oh well maybe i'm just crazy about my guitars, i sure do love em, BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:23 PM

Probably work. What I do with fiddles is tie a HEAVY string around the scroll/peghead and hang it with a thumbtack or nail from the speaker. Guitars are a little larger and heavier, so I don't know if that would work or not.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:32 PM

Sorcha ... I'm VERY interested in your idea! Breaking in a new instrument has to do with vibrations. Suspending a new instrument close to speakers, I assume the larger the better, might well improve the instrument and speed up the process. I'll bet that somewhere, someone has researched this idea? But, don't forget that only YOU can build the soul of an instrument! Choose your music well, always respect your choice, always present it well, and always, always ... enjoy it. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Justa Picker
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 08:59 PM

There have been many experiments down to accelerate the breaking in process, in an attempt to give a new guitar that well-worn vintage sound. The idea of subjecting the instrument to high decibel sympathetic vibration whether placed near a speaker or other methods, hasn't produced any sort of conclusive results that these methods are indeed effective...and I for one am skeptical.

I think the best way to break in a new guitar is to play it often and play it as loudly as you can without breaking strings or creating buzzes. The direct vibration within the body as a result of playing it, tends to be more effective than any of these other methods.

There is no quick "vintage sound magic bullet" that will make a new guitar sound 40+ years old, in a matter of days, weeks, or even months. You buy a new guitar for the way it sounds NOW. You play it faithfully as often as you can - perhaps a couple of hours a day everyday for the first couple of months - and if its a quality instrument (or a "good one") you should notice an improvement in its tone and projection.

Of course it varies from make/model/manufacturer as to how long this break in period will take for the guitar to open up. I have found the new, higher end Martins will start opening up in a shorter period of time (2-4 months) and others like Collings can take a year or longer. But getting something that sounds just dandy now, is the way to go, knowing that it will only sound better as time goes on. If it doesn't open up and sound better to you after say a year of ownership and constant playing, think about selling it and finding something better not necessarily more expense just better.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:04 PM

Bob, I have a fiddle that I inherited from hubbys grandfather. When I got it, it had a horrible crack from the treble f hole to the rib...all the way down the belly which had been repaired with model cement. It had 1/4" cotton clothes line tied from the sound post to the inside of the tail pin. Was filthy dirty with rosin, grease, smoke, etc. from being played in barns and bars and never cleaned.

We took it to a place in Salt Lake City, UT (InterMountain Music, I think) and had it repaired. Sounded like a cigar box or worse when we got it back. Since Irish/Celtic is my first love, I hung her in front of a speaker and played bagpipes to her for a solid week. I'm sure the neighbors were sick of pipes.

Her name is Maggie O'Malley (niMhaille for you purists) and no matter what kind of strings I put on her, she can sound like pipes. I've had Old Fiddler Super Sensitives (steel), Thomastik Dominants (perlon core), Helicores, Prims, and Pirastros on her....she likes the cheap-o's best, Prims the least.

She is an old red Lyon & Healy student model with geared tuners instead of friction pegs. Real outlaw. She will play almost any kind of music, including Classical (gasp), but there are certain songs she either loves or hates. She hates to play Tennessee Waltz (don't ask me, I like it) but give her Derry Aire (Danny Boy) and she will make you weep.

Her favorite is a song/tune called "If Ever You Were Mine" which was written for Uilliean pipes, and boy-o can she make it sound like pipes. She does a pretty good job with Scotland the Brave, too!

This girl is so brassy that she can "walk" on 2 banjos and one piano accordian all by herself. (I didn't know that until I heard a tape of the whole group.........was slightly embarassed.) Doesn't matter if she has gut strings or not--she talks the talk. I have to be careful not to step on people accidentally.

When my Orchestra violin was in the shop once years ago, Maggie and I were thrown out of orchestra rehearsal...."Don't you EVER bring that steel strung bitch in here again!!!" At the time, she was wearing Thomastik Dominants--fake gut. Oh well.

Don't tell me instruments don't have Souls or personalities. They are just like kids and dogs--raise 'em up to be what you want them to be. Expect a few surprises along the way, but they will still make liars out of you every time.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:10 PM

i believe you sorcha and that's a neat story, i like stories about all kinds of stringed instruments especially the guitar. BOB STILL LOOKING FOR THE 1975 NICKEL.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:15 PM

Nah, Bob, that will be a 1975 QUARTER you are looking for, right?

Justa is right though, the method I described helps to get the instrument to pitch, but you still have to put your own personal "stamp" on it. Nothing does that except play, play play.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:47 PM

I just now placed my guitar in front of a large speaker and turned on Norman Blake. When I touch it,it is REALLY vibrating. It is a new (4MOS) Martin D18GE and really sounded great out of the box. But I am already older'n dirt, and don't have time to "Play it in". Any little help is great.

You guys are great. Jim

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 09:56 PM

When we had a thread on this awhile back I related that in Acoustic Guitar Magazine someone had tested a device that was a "Guitar Shaker." The guitar was mounted in it and literally shaken at some frequency or another. Same idea that y'all are talking about. But like JP said, playing the thing is still the key and if it doesn't sound good in a year or so, it ain't gonna'! Much is made over the aging process, but you can tell within a year whether a guitar is going to really "grow."

Spaw

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 10:02 PM

I have also learned that when the wife complains about the loud music, TURN UP THE VOLUME till you can't hear her. Works well. J

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 10:10 PM

Sorcha ... GREAT STORY ... and obviously related very accuratly. Another thought ... we've all heard that certain pets take on the personalities of their owners. I do belive that certain instruments do the same. Thanks for sharing ... Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:29 AM

Dear Mr. Hardly,

I heer tell you got sum question regardin' heppful hints an' geetar tips.

Ma literate friend, Ed here, said if'n I'd dicktate to 'im, he'd send ya my idea. I said "Hell Ed, I don't need no dick taters. I'm amply endowed by my creator and don't need no paddin', in ma swimsuit er otherwize!" You can imagine my embarrasment when ol' Ed says he juss meant that he'd a-type whilst I did the talkin'.

Anyways, I consider myseff sumwhat of a inventor an' I'm always looking fer new ideas.

Y'know how geetar players are always lookin' fer some new way ta make their new geetars sound like they's all broke in an all? Heck I tried me that gimmick where'n I strapped the geetar to a stereo speeker reel tight-like an' blasted the hell into that spruce top. Trouble was, ma stereo ended up bein' tuned to some damn hoytie-toytie NPR station when I left it. Hell, I'm a cultured guy. I like a monster truck rally as much as the next guy, but fer about a month I couldn't make no good music come outta that there geetar. All it wanted to play was some Chitty Chopin if'n you git m' drift.

So I'z drivin 'round town with ma dog Hank Bob----he's a sheep dog and I like sheep too (around rural Indiana we calls 'em "the gentle spee-shees") so's I named him after me. I mostly calls him "Petey" though, cause it gets real embarrasin' when folks is callin' "Hey Hank Bob!!" and neither of us knows which one of us should answer.

Anyways, Iz drivin' with Petey and we both got our heads hangin' out the roll-down window (or where the roll-down windows'd be if'n I hadn't broke em out when I locked myself in the truck without m' damn keys!), an I git to noticin' how Petey's cheeks just a-git ta flappin' an' viber-atin' agin his tooth an' gums. Well, a light goes off in my head like the ignition of a hunnerd flatulances all simultaneous!

So heer's my tip;

Take the geetar which top you want broke in. Roll up yer truck windows so's they clamp right on yer geetar's neck at about the tenth fret, holdin' it snug-like with the body outside an' the tuners inside. Ya may wanna pad the neck at the window with a towel or sumthin' so's ya don't scratch the finish of the geetar. Then tie the headstock to the passenger seat (or in my case, the old porch chair I bolted in there for Petey) with some heavy sisal rope---somethin what's coarse an' got some bite in it….ya don't want that geetar slippin'!

Then haul yer ass down the road!!

If my calculations are right you should git a year's age fer every 10 mile over 60 mph's.

A word of caution; You may find that the bracing in some of yer sissy booteek geetars like Santa Cruz and Goodall won't hold up very well to the impact of a street sign or mailbox so ya might shade a bit to the middle of the road! On the other hand, Petey an' me strapped in a Rainsong th'other day and they ain't a single damn mailbox left in the en-tire neighborhood!!!

Damn right we had fun…Petey's still smilin' over that'n.

Yer's trooly,

Hank Bob

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Kaleea
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:31 AM

To properly break in a guitar one must follow the very important techniques handed down from our forebears. It goes as follows:

Like, ya gotta get out yer guitar, and Ya gotta turn on the black light, man, so's ya can see the groovey, psychodellic posters. Then ya gotta get into some really groovey threads. Invite a bunch of cool, mod freaks & flower children over. Then ya gotta put on all yer Beatle records on the stereo, man, and hang out and enjoy some fine herb, man, and when the records stop, ya gotta do some serious chanting, man. Then after ya chant long enough, ya into deep meditation and assume the classic yoga posture,"Musician with guitar", and if you go deep enough into transendental meditation, ya can channel John & George. Like, wow, man! It's really far out. If ya do that, yer axe'll be broke in in no time, either that, er it'll be broke from the far out party! Either way, you & yer friends'll have some way out, groovey times, man.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 09:06 AM

Used to call it "shooting" the guitar. (In days of old, were new instruments made of wood kept around the orchestra for the same reasons I wonder?). There's no perfect substitute for playing the thing, but shooting it will work. I've had instruments built for me which were so new when I got them that they'd not ever been played except for when the builder tuned them up. The changes (for the better) over the first several weeks are quite audible. One such guitar arrived with a very wonky timbre which I "shot" out over the period of a few days. Now, I chose acoustic music to do this, but I dare say anything that vibrates the thing will work. I'm just suspicious that wood needs wood as much as possible. Anyway, that wonky one is amazing now.

Carrying a guitar around in a vibrating rattle-trap old car helps too, so never go on tour in anything anyone would want to steal.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 11:18 AM

I'm with Justa Picker. All this stuff about breaking in guitars makes for good folk tales and urban legends, but in the long run, there's no substitute for TIME. BTW, when I buy a new rope, (for roping calves) I break it in by tying it to the saddle horn and dragging it behind me for a day or so till it gets just the right balance between limber and stiff. This might work for a guitar too!

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Willie-O
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 11:42 AM

It's not just time. It's gotta vibrate. Time in the case doesn't count.

Roping calves, I wouldn't know about...

I;m fairly fascinated by the idea that you have to vibrate them IN TUNE though...gives rise to the notion of having a "break in" recording, which would just have the right notes, real pure, real loud, over and over...you could leave it on while you were at work. Unless you have neighbours.

Or to preserve neighbourhood sanity, while transmitting the vibes directly (man), a stick-on speaker-thingy that you attach to the top. Because it ain't the sound per se, its the vibes, man!

W-O

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 12:05 PM

Fred:-- "Hey, why do you keep snapping your fingers like that?"
Bill:-- "It keeps the wild elephants away."
Fred:-- "Don't be ridiculous! There are no wild elephants within ten-thousand miles of here!"
Bill:-- "See? It works!"

I've heard lots of arguments on this, pro and con. My conclusion: "feeding" a guitar by setting it in front of a set of speakers does make some kind of sense. Sure, it's undoubtedly better to play it, but what about when you're not playing it? Granted, the whole thing may be a load of guano, but it might work, and if not, what could it hurt? Do it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:12 PM

Pretty funny - I had never heard any of this. I can tell you that I am going through withdrawals. My 73 Mossman is in the shop and I'm stuck with a 42 Martin D-18. I know - it's a great instrument - but it doesn't know my style of pickin and it is a slow learner. Necks too damn skinny, and the fret board is all grooved up.

I'll be extremely happy to have my guitar back. It is mine and I have made it so with 27 years of playing the old thing. It's been top loaded on mules, and survived a wreck when the Jenny blew up near a tree, made it through a horrible wreck that left the banjo picker in the hospital, and my insensitivity over the years.

I'm a believer. Ya gotta play them and play them a lot!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Mark Clark
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:31 PM

Steve, I'm really sorry to hear about your having to make do with the '42 D-18. Just send it along FOB your house and I'll take care of the rest.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 01:56 PM

hopefully soon i 'll be breaking in a new larivee. BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 03:56 PM

LMAO - Mark you are not the first to say that!! My friend, the one who loaned it to me, offered to let me use one of his other guitars - since I was struggling so hard. ( He thought it was pretty funny too)

Well shoot - his others are old Gibsons - the one is a 36 (his Dad's old guitar) and the other is a newer one - a 64 - its neck is really skinny!!

It has been fun. Although I still really miss my guitar. Like my best friend is in the hospital and I can't visit.

Steve

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Raptor
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 04:02 PM

A friend suggested once that you can take ear pieces off a used walkman put them in the hole and leave them play overnight so sound can be played loud without disturbing anyone.
Raptor

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 05:36 PM

Jeepman and others on this thread who have purchased or are purchasing new instruments, be sure to check all the paperwork included in the packaging. A very important item is the new guarantee that many are including. Should the guitar not be to your expectations, most of the major manufacturers have now joined in a new "Guaranteed Happiness" program that assures you will get the best possible instrument.

Martin, Larrivee, Taylor, Santa Cruz, Collings, Breedlove, Lakewood, Guild, and many others have joined in opening a central return center where new instruments that are in any way less than satisfactory can be sent and upon arrival will be checked and a new replacement instrument sent from whichever factory. You should have received this info in the warranty packet of any new instrument purchased within the past 19 months from any of the above manufacturers. If not, and you are dissatisfied with your new Martin, Larrivee, Taylor, etc., write a detailed analysis of your problem with it and send both the instrument, the date of purchase, and your complaint to the:

General Defect Instrument Return Center
PO Box 411/Purvis
Bremen, Ohio 43107-0411

You may send the instruments postage due. Deering and Wildwood banjos have recently become members also and they say that banjos shipped within the past 4 months have the additional warranty info included in the ownership package.

This should be some help in getting the customer a fine playing instrument and keeping the "dogs" off the market.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 05:52 PM

Let me pass on one thing that really worked for my Martin SPD-16K2. I bought it used, and on the advice of my trusted luthier, I put in a humidifier (Dampit) which brought Brennan (my guitar's name) around in two weeks. It seems that lots of new guitar purchasers do not take humidity into account, and the guitar dries out, resulting in neck movement, and body warp. The koa loves the moisture and we've gone from thunk to throb.

Don't overdo it; keep it in the ball park of 40-50% humidity, and good tone could be a week away. (This is true for all wooden instuments with unvarnished interior surfaces such as fiddles, and mandos, and especially for autoharps).

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 06:10 PM

My assumption is that anyone who doesn't account for both humidity and temperature during storage is a candidate for time at the NYCFFTS. We all get stuck in travelling and performance situations we can't help. But we are real big about talking over travelling on airplanes and the like, how to protect the ax and all of that.............Fact of the matter is, I'll bet that fewer than 7 out of 10 'Catters have any kind of humidity control in their cases.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 06:20 PM

So - How does one control humidity in a guitar case? How does this Dampitwork? And you are correct - never even thought about it - will it make my guitar get weird if all of a sudden I put a humidifier in it after 28 years of no humidifier?

Steve

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Mark Clark
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 06:49 PM

Spaw, That's wonderful news about the Guaranteed Happiness program. I'd very much like to help. Please inform the folks at the General Defect Instrument Return Center that I'll be happy to act as an inventory disposal contractor to help deal with the large volume of nearly fine—but valuless—instruments that will soon be on their way to Bremen, Ohio.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 06:54 PM

Hey Steve.........You can throw it in the case or there are some inexpensive ones that fit into the soundhole..........Just tell "Mose" it's a long overdue birthday present and things will be fine.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 07:29 PM

SPAW, THERE'S A HUMIDIFIER IN THE NEW ELDERLY CATALOG CALLED THE GUARDFATHER, IS IT ANY GOOD/ BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Jeep man
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 07:39 PM

At the risk of sounding even more ignorant than normal, I must ask: What is the difference between PITCH and Tone or Tuning? Is Concert Pitch the same as normal,(JamSession) pitch?

Please give(advice and info)to help the less informed. Jeep

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: ChanteyMatt
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 07:40 PM

So, given all this wonderful advice, what the best book/pamphlet/whatever on how best to take care of your guitar including breaking it in?

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Jeep man
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:20 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:26 PM

there really isn't a book you have to have in your heart and soul and then you'll know what to do and how to do it. BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Dec 01 - 08:28 PM

To tune your guitar to "concert pitch", purchase a tuning fork. You can get one for every note in the scale, "A thru G", but A 440 is the most common, most available and usually least expensive. I'm guessing that these days you could find one at your local music store for 5 bucks. Tune your guitars 5th string to the "A" tuning fork, and tune the rest of the strings (harmonically) to that string. If you ALWAYS keep your guitar at that pitch, everything within the instrument ... all the wood, the glue, the braces, the neck, the frets, etc., resonates to 'concert pitch.' I do believe that this does help a guitar develope it's maximum tone. I'm no expert, but it has always worked for me. Perhaps an analogy is fitting: If you find your lady loves chocolate, why give her lemon drops?" CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 09:58 AM

Cool beans Spaw - Jan has been wondering what to get me for Christmas - this will work quite nicely - Thanks so much!!

Steve

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 02:43 PM

i tune my guitars with an electronic tuner, but ia always keep them at 440 and that seems to work for me. BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: 53
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 08:55 PM

i bet you that i've played for about 4 hours today and i feel great i think the guitar broke me in as well as i broke the guitar in. you know how it feels when you just want to play and play. BOB

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 10:03 PM

Found a fairly nice humidifier at my local shop - it sits between the strings down into the sound hole. Shaun, the owner and superb friend and guitarist, tells me it doesn't touch the wood and the strings hold it in place.

Now if I can get my luthier to get me my guiitar back - -

Thanks for all the info - -

Steve

Subject: RE: Breaking in a guitar
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Dec 01 - 10:47 PM

Cool beans back atcha' Steve....Something like THIS???

Spaw