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BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden?
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Subject: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Bert Date: 05 Dec 01 - 10:39 AM There he is holed up in a tiny dirty cave with no sanitation or running water and probably little food, and sleeping on the dirt floor. And we're trying to put him in an American prison with a comfortable bed, TV, library, medical care, and everything he needs. We must be BLOODY CRAZY. I say we leave him there and sit back and gloat. The Norther Alliance will finish him off as soon as he pokes his head out of his hole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Willie-O Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:04 AM Oh, I expect he's got a pillow or two, Bert. I think his fraternal colleagues in the U.S. Marine Corps want to give him a little talking-to. In any case, the prospect of him living out the end of this year is not too great. I have reserved judgment on the whole campaign-in-Afghanistan thing, much against my nature, given the extreme nature of the provocation. But it more than bothers me to see that towns full of civilians are getting bombed and killed ("whoops") for the crime of being in the wrong part of Afghanistan. Willie-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Deda Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:45 AM We want to catch him because he is a leader, because he leads people to blow up Americans, killing any and all passers by, the more the better. Because he thinks killing Americans is a holy duty, and he's charismatic enough that thousands of others want to follow his orders, even if he is living in a dirty cave. We want to catch him because his followers believe that we CAN"T catch him, because he is protected by Allah, and so invulnerable, particularly invulnerable to any efforts by us, the infidels. Finally, in all these reasons, we want to catch him because we think it will make us feel better, that we will feel we have avenged the deaths of 9/11. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Sorcha Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:53 AM Well put, Deda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Pseudolus Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:56 AM With his power and the millions of dollars at his disposal, do you really think he's "roughing it" in those caves? I gotta believe that the caves are equipped with all of his needs and wants. This is not a man who's suffering....
Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST, Cookieless Member Date: 05 Dec 01 - 11:58 AM We need to catch him so we can give him a good, close shave every Morning, play non-stop music to him all day, even when he is teaching basic education to young girls (under close supervision, of course) & teaching kids of both sexes to fly kites, while receiving basic cookery, sewing, & diaper-changing lessons himself. Of course his heath is of paramount importance, so he needs regular checkups by FEMALE Doctors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:03 PM My Gawd, why didn't I think of that!!? Set up a couple of speakers and a BIG amp right outside his cave door, and play: You Light Up My Life Hava Nagila Kung Foo Fighting 24/7. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: mousethief Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:07 PM But Hava Nagila is GOOD music. Why give him the pleasure? Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:08 PM Do we really know he's still hunkered down in some cave in Afghanistan? Might he not be sitting in a coffeehouse on the Riviera, Western clothes, beard well-groomed, dark glasses, talking to his minions on a cell-phone and snickering grimly at everyone who's out in the Afghani mountains playing hide-and-seek? I assume the seekers know what they're doing, but. . . . Don (just wondering) Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Raptor Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:10 PM I suspect that cuz he's over 6 feet tall and hard to catch the washington wizards want to sign him to a 5 year contract as a point guard! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST, Cookieless Member Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:10 PM Actually I think the only reason he's still 'at liberty' (if you can call it that....) is that the British Special Forces are secretly holding out for better than $25 mill. They up it to say $50M, & hard on the heels of that News broadcast, there'll be an announcement they they have got the bastard.....*G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:23 PM Bush couldn't catch Saddam. He has to catch someone. He wants bin Laden dead or alive but it would be more useful to catch him alive. A friend of mine suggests putting bin Laden in a cell for the rest of his life and telling him every day that he is loved. Don't give him the Koran to read. What do you think we could learn from this? bin Laden is only one tip of the iceberg. Zawahiri, Hamas, Jihad, etc. etc. and if we're not careful, our own military in which we develop a military dictatorship. . Bush is Ahab and bin Laden is the white whale. The secret word here is "infidel". The other secret word is "oil". Frank
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:27 PM Hey, nice jokes there, people! I think the real and paramount reason "we are trying to catch Bin Laden" is this: American culture always requires a specific "bad guy" to focus public attention on in order to mobilize the general public behind a dubious effort involving wholesale destruction of the civil administration and general infrastructure in a small foreign country, thus permitting takeover of strategic real estate, etc... Past examples: Manuel Noriega, Muammar Quaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Fidel Castro. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the "bad guy" is guilty of some or all the things the US media accuse him of, sometimes not. It hardly matters. The important thing is, the public needs that bad guy to focus on. Now I am not suggesting that Bin Laden is a nice fellow, not at all. What I am suggesting is that he's a handy excuse right now for launching a big military effort, and that catching or killing him will not solve longstanding problems out of which he and his followers arose in the first place, but will probably exacerbate them. But it will make Americans FEEL GOOD, and that's what really matters, right? From Bin Laden's point of view, what could be a better end than martyrdom at the hands of a superpower? Victory, after all, is simply not possible for his people...only martyrdom...at this point in history. - LH
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:36 PM The general consensus is that the highups in the US anyway would sooner he was killed than captured. I assume the thinking must be that if he were placed on trial, some of the stuff he might let out about those who have helped him in his career would be highly embarassing to important people in places like Washington and Riyadh.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Raptor Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:37 PM I say we give him a sex change and see how he likes being a woman in afganistan! Little Hawk Where have you been? Go to the coffiehouse tonight! Raptor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Mrrzy Date: 05 Dec 01 - 12:50 PM Bush wants to be reelected, I mean, really elected? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Gareth Date: 05 Dec 01 - 01:54 PM Now there's a thought - British forces capture Bin Ladan - It could solve the problem of our Defence Budget for the next few years !!!! Gareth
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Jim Krause Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:06 PM bert, put him in prison? Nah, don't think so. Kill him maybe, but not imprison him. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: DougR Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:17 PM You got it wrong again, L.H.. We are launching a big military effort BECAUSE Bin Laden sent a couple of airplanes into the WTC, the Pentagon, and Pennsylvania countryside. We want to catch him so we can EXECUTE him! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST Date: 05 Dec 01 - 02:20 PM McGrath-- The US doesn't need to worry about state secrets getting out--that is what we have secret military tribunals for. They don't want due process with bin Laden, they want to drag him alive through the streets of a third world country just before the elections next year, in hopes of winning back the Senate. bin Laden has nothing to do with this adventurism--the oil under the Caspian Sea is what the US and British governments are after. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:29 PM Whatever happens, he'll be turning up all over the place more regularly than Elvis for the next 50 years or so.
Especially if the world is informed that he was killed resisting capture. Even if it's true, nobody is going to believe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Benjamin Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:37 PM Rick, I had a simular idea. I noticed that everyone in military I know is in to ACDC, which would have to be one of the bands Bin Laden and the Taliban hate the most. Why not just blast ACDC into the caves of Afganistan and let the army rock out until they surface? Light My Fire is another great song to use. How about some Carpenters? Kung Fu Fighting, maybe get a disco ball in there. Heck, just recreat a 70's prom night! I'm telling you, this is a stroke of pure military genious (which I came up with first, but great minds think alike!). Okay, so I'm not a stratigist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:45 PM I know they tried that on General Noriega (in between killing a couple of thousand Panamanian civilians), but isn't there some kind of restriction on cruel and unusual punishments in the US Constitution ?
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST Date: 05 Dec 01 - 03:59 PM 6' 5" This is a trophy "raghead" and there are lots of Good Ole Boys ready to take him.... If he came at me with his hands up I'd shoot him anyway.... If you keep him in a zoo (Prison) you will only spawn a thousand I wanna save him terrorists... Fuck it! just shoot the bastard and come home for Christmas boys... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST,Souter Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:06 PM So instead of a thousand "I wanna save him" terrotists we get SEVERAL THOUSAND "I wanna avenge his death and be a hero" terrorists? Great plan, really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Troll Date: 05 Dec 01 - 04:47 PM Why do we want to catch bin Laden? To see that he stands trial in a duly constituted court of law for his crimes against the United States and its people. I do not like the idea of secret tribunals. Something similar to Neurenburg is what is needed. I do not want to see him executed, but held -should he be found guilty- incommunicado for the rest of his life; with no way to contact his followers and no news of their doings. And yes, oil just may have been at the bottom of his desire to destroy the US. Consider the fact that Russian oil is now available to the West. Kinda breaks the OPEC monopoly. In bin Ladens mind this would be the final insult to the Arab nations, the destruction of the last bit of power the Arabs have over the West. Add to that the Caspian fields and the Arab nations are relegated to the backwaters of power once again. Think about it. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:13 PM Souter... if you dont shoot him he will finance and breed several hundred thousand terrorists who will think Hey! all we have to do is start killing Americans and we will get anything we want.... Your choice mate... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Art Thieme Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:42 PM When I was visiting a friend on a reservation near the Four Corners area of the U.S. I saw that their rain dances in this very arid country involved dancing around while others threw live lizards under their feet. The dancers sang, "Hop on a gila, hop on a gila..." Well, it did make for a certain amount of moisture. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: gnu Date: 05 Dec 01 - 05:49 PM Art... oh Art ! I heard on the news last night that some of the suspected terrorists under arrest in the USA will face MILITARY court (tribunals ?) instead of US civilian justice. Hmmmm. Cause for thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Dec 01 - 06:43 PM The very expression "suspected terrorist" assumes that people accused are guilty. The media do it all the time, but it's a lazy and dangerous way of talking.
It leads to people saying things like "I don't care about protecting the rights of terrorists" when what they are in effect saying is that they don't care about protecting the rights of people who are not terorists, but who for some reason or other may have come under suspicion. Which could be any of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: ddw Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:04 PM Not to put too fine a point on it, McGrath, but what would you substitute? If there's reason to think someone may have done something wrong, do we not say "it's suspected that he did it"? And is he not called a "suspect"? If he his suspected of committing a terrorist act, is it not logical to call him a "suspected terrorist"? What would you call him? "That person who may or may not have done something that may or may not be terrorism"? david |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: poet Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:20 PM I am British and as such I cannot say that my Hands are historically clean but then again I don't know of any race that is. However to my way of thinking someone has declared war on America in the most unmistakable way by killing your citizens without warning!The last time it Happened was in 1941. I am not in a position to say Bin Liner is Guilty but your Authorities believe this. Now you can stand by and let your people die. or you can fight and its up to you, but I wonder how? you who are morally outraged would react if it was you or yours who were doing the dieing. I personally Believe that if you shoot at me I will bloody well shoot back Preferably with a bigger gun. There is no room in this overcrowded world for terrorism in any form. Poet |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: poet Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:21 PM I am British and as such I cannot say that my Hands are historically clean but then again I don't know of any race that is. However to my way of thinking someone has declared war on America in the most unmistakable way by killing your citizens without warning!The last time it Happened was in 1941. I am not in a position to say Bin Liner is Guilty but your Authorities believe this. Now you can stand by and let your people die. or you can fight and its up to you, but I wonder how? you who are morally outraged would react if it was you or yours who were doing the dieing. I personally Believe that if you shoot at me I will bloody well shoot back Preferably with a bigger gun. There is no room in this overcrowded world for terrorism in any form. Poet |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: DougR Date: 05 Dec 01 - 08:28 PM Well said, Poet, twice! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Benjamin Date: 05 Dec 01 - 10:22 PM Some points you just have to drive home Doug! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Hippie Chick Date: 05 Dec 01 - 10:51 PM I like the idea of giving Bin Liner a sex change operation and then dropping him back where he came from. Making him a martyr will just give the revenge cycle another boost forward. Of course, keeping him in a cell with an 8-track of Stayin' Alive, Barry Manilow's greatest hits, and weeping of the bereaved playing for the rest of his natural life is not too bad either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: DougR Date: 06 Dec 01 - 12:20 AM I don't understand why so many people are concerned about Bin Laden becoming a martyr. To his close followers his is going to be one whether he spends the rest of his life behind bars, or is dead. Big deal! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Spud Murphy Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:59 AM It is God's responsibility to punish or forgive Bin Laden. It is the responsibility of the United States Marine Corps to arrange the meeting. (Purported to be from a USMC bumper sticker.) Spud Murphy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Ringer Date: 06 Dec 01 - 10:03 AM Surely it is a matter of justice? (or are Troll and I just naif?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Deda Date: 06 Dec 01 - 11:02 AM Yes, I think it is a matter of justice. But there are plenty of people who can't attribute any good motive to the US government, or maybe to any government, and so they assign other motives, ranging from re-election to oil, and much farther afield. But I think it is really about wanting to see a terrible crime punished, which is a kind of justice. Keep it simple. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST,Frank Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:23 PM It would be a great precedent for the United States to try him in a U.S. court of law allowing him all the amenities that we deem to be important such as due process, writ of habeas corpus etc. Orin Hatch says that people would be afraid to serve as a jury on such a case. I feel that this would really be my patriotic duty and if called I would. No doubt, bin Laden would be convicted. It would send a message to the rest of the world that our system of legal jurisprudence works and is something to be proud of. I would also support his being tried at the Hague. Military tribunals are for military dicatators. If this is going to be American justice, what is the US fighting for? Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Dec 01 - 01:36 PM Doug - I know why you want to eliminate Bin Laden, Doug, but it was more your govermental authorities I had in mind...at the top level. I think they may have some longer range objectives in mind. I may be wrong. We'll see as time goes by. I don't think superpowers go to war by happenstance. The war with Japan was definitely and invevitably coming long before Pearl Harbour, and I think the same is true of this war in Afghanistan, and other conflicts coming up in the Middle East. These are local skirmishes in the establishment of the Pax Americana, post-1989...similar to Britain's performance worldwide following the defeat of Napoleon. The USA is consolidating its economic and cultural empire, and eliminating pockets of resistance along the way in various parts of the world. I do not think that anyone in the US administration anticipated the destruction of the WTC, but I'm sure they expected some lesser type of terrorist event to occur at some point, and they were prepared to make certain moves when and if it did. The collapse of the Soviet Union created a huge power vacuum in the world, and we are seeing the after-effects all over the place now. Rather than a peace dividend, we have inherited an extremely unstable and volatile situation which is likely to last for some time yet. The only other country capable of reaching superpower status at this point, I would think, is China...but not quite yet. They are biding their time, while they modernize themselves. The Chinese are known for their patience and their long range outlook. Until China asserts herself, however, America has basically got a free hand to junket around the world pulverizing poorly armed opponents in 3rd World nations, just as the British did a century or two ago, wiping out Africans and Asians with fast-firing rifles against spears, swords, and old flintlocks. Occasionally there's a screw-up. The British lost a column of redcoats to the Zulus at Isandlwana, and the USA lost the WTC to suicide pilots. The end result was similar in both cases...the British massacred the Zulus not too long after Isandlwana, and the USA is now massacring the Afghans. I do not, by the way, sympathize with the Taliban (never have), but they are just bit players in a worldwide drama that will soon forget them as it moves on to other stages. - LH
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: DougR Date: 06 Dec 01 - 07:24 PM L.H., I just think you are making something more complicated than it is. Our capitalistic barons who thirst for oil and suffer the scorn of many here on the Mudcat did not motivate Osoma Bin Laden to send the airliners into the WTC, the Pentagon or the landscape in Pennsylsania. We did not start this war; the terrorists did. They did it because they want to take over the world, not just the U. S. They are religious zealots who have no tolerance for any religion other than their own, as they interpret it. I have no argument with you about the Taliban. We weren't after the Taliban for anything other than that they harbored the terrorists. Frank: I respectfully disagree with you in regard to trying bin Laden in U. S. courts. The reasons are reported and reiterated on numerous television shows and newspapers multple times each day. A military tribunal for Mr. bin Laden, I say. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Devilmaster Date: 06 Dec 01 - 09:49 PM Like George Carlin says:
'The only good thing to come out of religion is the music' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST Date: 07 Dec 01 - 12:16 PM Naw...if you 'really' want to punish Bin Laden set up a giant PA system and pump Cat Steven's 'Moonshadow' through it non-stop...his own followers will give him up in pretty short order. Then once he's incarcerated play 'Itsy Bitsy Yellow Poka-dot Bikini' while he undergoes sleep deprivation in a soundproof cell. Then play any Amy Grant track until he converts or dies of boredom. Just don't shoot him...quick and painless is far too easy a fate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Dec 01 - 01:49 PM Now you're talkin', GUEST! That would indeed be a living hell, and not just for Osama Bin Laden... Add to it all the "I Love Lucy" episodes on a giant wall-mounted TV screen, one after the other in an endless loop. Given enough time, American pop culture can destroy any mind or at least render it inactive. :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Dec 01 - 03:09 PM Little Hawk, when you condemn American Pop Culture, you had better not be referring to The Simpsons when you do so! I wonder whether we Americans can actually practice what we preach when it comes to the Middle East? Do we actually want elected governments in those countries, when evidence suggests that those governments could well be Islamic Theocracies? The Pakistani leader is promising popular elections in the near future. Is that an encouraging prospect, given the prevalence of angry fundamentalists in that country, and especially coupled with their possession of nuclear weapons? Personally, I don't think we would tolerate a hostile fundamentalist government in Pakistan, freely elected or not. Who would be at risk from such a government? Certainly not only the US, but Canada, Ireland and all other "Crusader" powers. Before we handily accuse the US of nasty meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations, maybe some attention needs to be paid to the small concern of continued human survival. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Dec 01 - 05:19 PM The impression I've been getting is that the title of this thread is misstated. It should have been "Why aren't we trying to catch Bin Laden" - since every pundit writing in the media seems to be pretty clear that, so far as the US is concerned, the aim is not to catch Bin Laden, but to kill him.
It seems to be suggested that there are some crimes for which trials are not appropriate, but that killing without trial is? Lynch law rules OK?
As for what to call people who are accused of a crime, I've always thought the right way is to call them just that - not "suspected killer" for example, but "man (or woman) charged with/ accused of killing". It's a slight difference, but it places a brake on sliding down a dangerous slope to a situation in which people are required to prove their innocence rather than having someone prove their guilt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Amos Date: 07 Dec 01 - 07:55 PM And yes, LH, it WILL make Americans feel better, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Because Americans have this peculiar make up on the whole -- they feel better when underdogs win, they feel better when cruelty is brought its comeuppance, they feel better when their sense of justice is fulfilled, and they feel better when real hard-core antisocial criminals -- whether civil or war -- are rounded up and bloody shot. Call it an eccentricity if you like. They seem to have this bizarre notion that taking out people who launch massive sneak attacks on their nation will make the world a better place in some small degree. A
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: DougR Date: 08 Dec 01 - 01:35 AM McGrath: I don't recall having heard or read that any resposnible U. S. official, such as the President, Attorney General, Secretary of Defense, or even the Commanding General of U. S. forces in Afghanistan has advocated killing Bin Laden rather than capturing him. If you have information to back up your thesis, please point it out to me, por favor. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Terry K Date: 08 Dec 01 - 02:19 AM I'm concerned about the woolly-minded thinking that suggests doing away with Bin Laden will create a worse situation by making him a martyr. It didn't happen when Hitler got his lot, so I'm prepared to take the risk. Cheers, Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Dec 01 - 12:30 PM I think if you trawl through the political commentators, Doug - and I'm not talking about the comic-book ones - that has been a pretty widespread interpretion of the implication of statements by Bush and Rumsfeld. As I put it "every pundit writing in the media seems to be pretty clear that, so far as the US is concerned, the aim is not to catch Bin Laden, but to kill him."
They may be wrong and "every" is a rhetorical exaggeration on my part, since obviously I haven't seen what every pundit has written - I should have said that that is how all the ones I have seen have interpreted it. But I haven't seen too much about any statements from Bush and Rumsfeld complaining about the misinterpretation. Again, perhaps there have been such statements, and they haven't been reported too widely.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 08 Dec 01 - 12:38 PM SO WE CAN KILL HIM!!!! cb |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Dec 01 - 04:53 PM I feel better when underdogs win too, Amos! Always have felt that way, since I was a little kid. So...which underdog are we talking about in this case? Actually, I most prefer situations where everyone wins...but that's a whole other philosophical subject (thread drift, in other words). Regarding Pakistan, I think the main danger of a fundamentalist regime in that country would be to Pakistan itself, Kashmir, the Punjab, and India...not to the USA. If Pakistan becomes destabilized, it will probably be the Pakistanis themselves who suffer the highest body count. That's certainly what Afghanistan and Iran have experienced by so doing in recent times. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: DougR Date: 08 Dec 01 - 08:39 PM I will admit, McGrath, that I don't think anyone in the administration will be devastated if Osama catches a fatal bullet, or gets in the way of a bomb. That's purely a guess on my part though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: kj... Date: 08 Dec 01 - 10:54 PM ....we're not really trying to *catch* bin laden....just chase him around a bit so we can grab some more oil and make lots of money on the market.....(excluding self from royal we)....... .....if we actually catch him...we'll have to go to all the trouble of finding a new one to catch..... ....well i'm not *always* cynical..... :)kj |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Margo Date: 09 Dec 01 - 01:40 AM I predict that Bin Laden will die on an American holiday... :o) Margo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 01 - 07:52 AM I think Doug, you confirm, what I said.
If they fail to capture Bin Laden and to put him on trial it will be a serious failure. Yes, it could well be that Bin Laden gets killed or kills himself. But if that happens it will be very much a second best outcome.
It seems very likely that the people in charge don't see it that way, and think that, if he gets killed rather than captured, that'll be a better alternative. My opinion - and I predict that this will be the view of most future historians - is that that's crazy and irresponsible.
Does anyone think that Stalin was right in wanting to avoid having the Nuremberg Trials, and just have the Nazi leaders shot out of hand?
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 01 - 08:29 AM The men who actually perpetrated the crime died with their victims. The Hunt for Bin Laden is partly because the Shrub's presidency needed a big-time focus and useful diversion to keep other things moving through Congress without too much awareness/interference by the rabble and, partly to satisfy the victim's families and the rest of the country who want revenge/justice. Of course that is somewhat of a simplistic take, but it does fit in the mix. Amos, there are those of us who do not relish the death of anyone. I believe bin Laden should have a trial, but the outcome would be a foregone conclusion in this country. If it is to happen it should be elsewhere such as the Hague. If found guilty, I think he should be left to live out his natural life, in solitary confinement, living simply on simple food, no contact with the outside world and no luxuries, including books and music. Either way he will be/is a martyr to those who would follow him. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Gareth Date: 09 Dec 01 - 09:45 AM The orders not to take Ben Ladin alive may not have been given, but is there not an historic parallel ? "Will no one rid me of this turbulant Priest" Gareth - a former resident of Canterbury. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Dec 01 - 10:05 AM Kat - I agree with your analysis. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Celtic Soul Date: 09 Dec 01 - 10:12 AM Simply put, a lion without a head has a hard time eating you.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 01 - 12:21 PM That's all right for lions, less good when you're dealing with a hydra.
Or, lets say you're dealing with a disease, any doctor who think you've got to concentrate on finding some individual Big Boss Bug, and kill it, is not going to have much chance of curing anyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Midchuck Date: 09 Dec 01 - 12:25 PM I just noticed that the title of this thread fits the meter of "What Will We Do With A Drunken Sailor." Endless possibilities.... Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: katlaughing Date: 09 Dec 01 - 01:30 PM Thanks, LH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: GUEST,colwyn dane Date: 09 Dec 01 - 01:39 PM The Nuremberg War Crimes Trials were used to try the leaders of a defeated country - under an ex post facto law - some have said: "I think the Nuremberg trials are a black page in the history of the world... I discussed the legality of these trials with some of the lawyers and some of the judges who participated therein. They did not attempt to justify their action on any legal ground, but rested their position on the fact that in their opinion, the parties convicted were guilty..."(1) and "....it permitted the accusers to act as prosecutors, judges, jury and executioners; and it admitted to the group of prosecutors those who had been guilty of crimes as numerous and atrocious as those with which the accused were charged. Hence, it is not surprising that these trials degraded international jurisprudence as never before in human experience."(2) Stalin would have been right to have shot the German leaders out of hand but of course that was his idea of righteouness.
I think that any apprehension of OBL et co should not be seen as the capture of the leaders of a defeated country
CD.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: heric Date: 09 Dec 01 - 01:58 PM Nails his balls to a stump and set a fire 'round Balls to a stump and set a fire 'round Balls to a stump and set a fire 'round When we catch bin Laden -------------- Give'm a well hung cell mate with no K-Y Well hung cell mate with no K-Y Kneel and pray hard to the Big Guy When you're caught bin Laden ------------- Give'm a sex change in Afghanistan No anesthesia that's the game plan Feed'm on Spam and undercooked ham When we catch bin Laden -------------------------------- Hava Nagila never ending Hindu prayers ever offending Millions of folks are always sending Powder to his mail bag --------------------- Spiritual lessons from Madonna Buddhist chants to find Nirvana Daily exams now do you wanna Learn electric guitar -------------------------- Okay, flamethrowers out: I can take it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Ebbie Date: 09 Dec 01 - 02:33 PM Wow, Dan. Remind me of this before I move next door. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: heric Date: 09 Dec 01 - 02:46 PM Hey, wait, Ebbie. That's an amalgam of collective mudcat thoughts. It's not my own mind, really! It's research. . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Dec 01 - 03:28 PM The only thing wrong with the Nuremberg trials was that it wasn't possible for the same judges to also try some of the people on the winning side.
That's why we need a genuine international war crimes court which isn't going to take any notice of which side the war criminals are on.
There are some things that need to be the subject of criminal trials, no matter who does them.
I understand the American government is still dead set against that happening. That a great pity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Wolfgang Date: 10 Dec 01 - 07:29 AM Margo, good joke; telling the respective version of it (Hitler will die on a Jewish holiday) would have cost you your life in prewar Germany. The joke is at least that old, perhaps older, but I still like it. May you keep your life for a very long time to come. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: Celtic Soul Date: 10 Dec 01 - 10:19 PM Oh jeez, Peter!!! LOL!!! I have really hated the song Drunken Sailor for a lot of years, but I think you may have just enlivened it for me! :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why are we trying to catch Bin Laden? From: kj... Date: 10 Dec 01 - 11:03 PM ...yes katlaughing.... .."..If you want revenge you need to dig two graves...." Chinese proverb or something else not mine... :)kj |