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Help: HTML practice

GUEST,Vectis at work 07 Dec 01 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,vectis 07 Dec 01 - 09:30 AM
vectis 09 Dec 01 - 04:21 PM
vectis 09 Dec 01 - 04:29 PM
vectis 09 Dec 01 - 04:35 PM
Steve in Idaho 09 Dec 01 - 05:37 PM
GUEST 09 Dec 01 - 05:38 PM
Joe Offer 09 Dec 01 - 06:07 PM
Jeri 09 Dec 01 - 06:31 PM
GUEST 10 Dec 01 - 11:07 AM
vectis 10 Dec 01 - 04:38 PM
Joe Offer 10 Dec 01 - 05:17 PM
Jim Dixon 11 Jan 02 - 03:29 PM
Doug Chadwick 20 Oct 02 - 10:34 AM
Melani 13 Feb 03 - 10:15 PM
Melani 13 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM
Melani 13 Feb 03 - 10:22 PM
Melani 14 Feb 03 - 12:40 AM
*daylia* 14 Feb 03 - 09:50 AM
GUEST 14 Feb 03 - 10:19 AM
*daylia* 14 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM
Joe Offer 17 Nov 03 - 02:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Nov 03 - 07:24 AM
Watson 17 Nov 03 - 01:19 PM
Bill D 17 Nov 03 - 05:22 PM
John Routledge 17 Nov 03 - 05:38 PM
John Routledge 17 Nov 03 - 05:41 PM
Mark Clark 17 Nov 03 - 07:51 PM
Mark Clark 17 Nov 03 - 11:35 PM
Noreen 17 Nov 03 - 11:49 PM
Bill D 18 Nov 03 - 12:21 AM
Noreen 18 Nov 03 - 12:31 AM
Bill D 18 Nov 03 - 12:41 AM
Mark Clark 18 Nov 03 - 12:46 AM
Mark Clark 18 Nov 03 - 01:01 AM
Noreen 18 Nov 03 - 01:04 AM
Mark Clark 18 Nov 03 - 01:23 AM
Noreen 18 Nov 03 - 01:45 AM
Mark Clark 18 Nov 03 - 02:43 AM
Watson 18 Nov 03 - 06:38 AM
Jeri 18 Nov 03 - 10:18 AM
GUEST,MMario 18 Nov 03 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,MMario 18 Nov 03 - 10:55 AM
Watson 18 Nov 03 - 11:05 AM
Bill D 18 Nov 03 - 06:11 PM
Snuffy 18 Nov 03 - 09:06 PM
Mark Clark 18 Nov 03 - 09:26 PM
Bill D 18 Nov 03 - 10:20 PM
Bill D 18 Nov 03 - 11:14 PM
Noreen 19 Nov 03 - 07:33 AM
Bill D 19 Nov 03 - 11:47 AM
Snuffy 19 Nov 03 - 07:08 PM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 03 - 05:32 AM
Bill D 20 Nov 03 - 08:49 PM
Bill D 20 Nov 03 - 08:52 PM
Snuffy 21 Nov 03 - 09:04 AM
Mark Clark 21 Nov 03 - 12:07 PM
Bill D 21 Nov 03 - 12:56 PM
Mark Clark 21 Nov 03 - 01:20 PM
Mark Clark 21 Nov 03 - 01:27 PM
JohnInKansas 21 Nov 03 - 03:21 PM
JohnInKansas 21 Nov 03 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,MMario 21 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM
JohnInKansas 21 Nov 03 - 03:52 PM
Bill D 21 Nov 03 - 05:51 PM
Mark Clark 21 Nov 03 - 07:22 PM
JohnInKansas 21 Nov 03 - 11:02 PM
Mark Clark 22 Nov 03 - 12:57 AM
JohnInKansas 22 Nov 03 - 06:32 AM
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Subject: HTML practice
From: GUEST,Vectis at work
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 09:24 AM

These are some sites of interest to teachers of special needs pupils in the UK. Courses and conferences

Bett 2002

Nasen

self esteem
Hopefully these blickies will work and the title will be bold.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST,vectis
Date: 07 Dec 01 - 09:30 AM

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It worked. My first Blicky ever.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: vectis
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 04:21 PM

Here are some web sites which are of interest to special needs teachers in the UK.

Special Needs Information Press

Click to e-mail snip

Bett 2002

Nasen

Self Esteem Advisory Service

Electronic Library 250

iANSYST

Revised Code of Practice

Click here To join in a virtual conference on the new Code of Practice

Professional Association of Teachers of Students with Specific Learning Difficulties


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: vectis
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 04:29 PM

[message deleted]
Vectis posted a copy of Dan Mulligan's instructions from the Mudcat HTML Guide, but Dan's display HTML did not copy into this post. Refer to the HTML Guide for correct information. I deleted the copy here because the lack of HTML display codes made it incorrect.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: vectis
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 04:35 PM

Thanks Mudcat for helping me out with a bit of the site. What a wonderful facility.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:37 PM

Huh?? I am impressed though! I'm just glad I can do a clicky and italics. Maybe next week I'll learn something else :-)

Does make ya feel good to do a clcky though *G*

Steve


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:38 PM

a bigger pile of good information mixed with utter nonsense, i have rarely seen...

If you're not sure about HTML, be very wary of the above.

Some truth, lots of mistakes / misinformation


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 06:07 PM

I dunno - I think the above post from Vectis is correct, except that the HTML display codes didn't copy. It's a copy of Dan Mulligan's post in the Mudcat HTML Guide (click). Take a look at the information there, and let me know if there are any corrections to be made.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-
Joe's practice:
&schwa;


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 06:31 PM

I think this oughtta work. You can use these for examples of HTML:
Type &lt; for <
and &gt; for >


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 11:07 AM

Joe,

Just curious, but why didn't you delete the subsequent messages?

They make no sense in the light of what you have deleted.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: vectis
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 04:38 PM

Joe was correct. I edited Dans original post to suit me and then posted it here so that i could print out what it looked like as part of a project I had to do.
My copy was sound enough to meet my needs but was not complete enough for anyone to use it to encode HTML. Use Dans original or the Mudcat HTML guide for good advice.
Sorry Joe I didn't consider that my bit of practice could mislead others.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 01 - 05:17 PM

Hi, Guest - Standard policy is that we go into HTML practice threads and delete practice messages every once in a while, to make room for more practice. I deleted the goofed-up guidelines from vectis because they might be misleading, and because it was a very lengthy message that prolonged the load time for this thread. I left the other messages up for the time being so people would know what happened.
We don't usually delete messages in ordinary threads, but HTML practice threads and PermaThreads are the exception.
I'm glad you asked.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 03:29 PM

These "Various Artists" albums may be of interest:

"The Great Depression: American Music in the '30s," Columbia CD CK-57589, 1993.

1 Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? - Rudy Vallee
2 All of Me - Louis Armstrong
3 It Don't Mean a Thing (If It Ain't Got That Swing) - Duke Ellington
4 Hungarian Varsovienne - Henri Ford, Old Fashioned Dance Orchestra
5 Detroit Moan - Victoria Spivey
6 We Sure Got Hard Times - Barbecue Bob
7 Dark Was the Night (Cold Was the Ground) - Blind Willie Johnson
8 I'm Slappin' Seventh Avenue (With the Sole of My Shoe) - Duke Ellington and Orchestra
9 Mean Low Blues - Blues Birdhead
10 Happy Days Are Here Again - Casa Loma Orchestra
11 There's a New Day Coming - Ted Lewis
12 I Surrender, Dear - Red Norvo & His Orchestra
13 Creole Love Call - Duke Ellington
14 Gloomy Sunday - Billie Holiday
15 Headin' for Better Times - T. Lewis
16 N. R. A. Blues - Bill Cox
17 Are You Making Any Money? - Chick Bullock and His Levee Loungers
18 He's in the Ring (Doing the Same Old Thing) - Memphis Minnie
19 With Plenty of Money and You (Oh! Baby What I Couldn't Do) - Hal Kemp and His Orchestra
20 Dawn of a New Day - Horace Heidt & His Orchestra
21 Whistle While You Work - Artie Shaw & His New Music

"Songs of the Depression: Boom, Bust & New Deal," Bear Family CD 16029, 1999:

1 Hittin' the Ceiling - Smith Ballew
2 I'm in the Market for You - Bert Ambrose, Ambrose Orchestra
3 Happy Days Are Here Again - Casa Loma Orchestra
4 Song of the Bayou - Hardy, Marion Alabamians
5 Eddie Cantor's Tips on the Stock Market [Monologue] - Eddie Cantor
6 A Cottage for Sale - Hotel Pennsylvania Music
7 Get Happy - Ted Wallace, Campus Boys
8 Sweeping the Clouds Away [From: Paramount on Parade] - Casa Loma Orchestra
9 Laughing at Life - McKinney's Cotton Pickers
10 It's a Great Life (If You Don't Weaken) [From: Playboy of Paris] - Sam Lanin
11 Cheer Up! Good Times Are Comin' - Hotel Pennsylvania Music
12 Cheer Up! Smile! Nertz! [Ballyhoo] - Eddie Cantor, Phil Spitalny Music
13 Singing a Vagabond Song [From: Putting on the Ritz] - Ted Lewis Orchestra
14 Son of the Sun [From: Luana] - Jack Teagarden, Ben Pollack Orchestra
15 Hallelujah, I'm a Bum [From Hallelujah I'm A Bum] - Al Jolson
16 Big City Blues [From: Fox Movietone Follies of 1929] - Annette Hanshaw
17 There's a Tear for Every Smile in Hollywood [From: Showgirl in ...] - Blue Steele
18 Ten Cents a Dance - Ruth Etting
19 Cigarettes Cigars [From: Ziegfeld Follies of 1931] - Ruth Etting
20 Just a Gigolo [From: Doctor Cheer CBS Radio Transcription] - Johnny Marvin
21 Love for Sale [From: The New Yorkers'] - Libby Holman
22 We Can Live on Love - Smith Ballew
23 There's No Depression in Love - Vincent Rose
24 Now's the Time to Fall in Love [From: Palmy Days'] - Victor Young
25 I'm an Unemployed Sweetheart - Lee Morse
26 I Got Five Dollars [From: America's Sweetheart'] - Emil Coleman
27 I Found a Million Dollar Baby (In a Five and Ten Cent Store) - Paul Specht
28 Last Dollar - Eddie Droesch
29 Here It Is Monday and I've Still Got a Dollar - Chick Bullock
30 Wrap Your Troubles in Dreams (And Dream Your Troubles Away) - Mildred Bailey
31 Whistling in the Dark - Sam Lanin
32 Dancing in the Dark [From: The Band Wagon] - Ben Selvin Orchestra
33 Alone Together [From: Flying Colors] - Victor Young
34 Life Is Just a Bowl of Cherries [Excerpt from: Gems from: White, ...] - Mills Brothers, Boswell Sisters, Bing Crosby
35 (We've Got To) Put That Sun Back in the Sky - Boswell Sisters
36 Shoo the Hoodoo Away - Bert Ambrose, Orchestra Ambrose
37 Whistle and Blow Your Blues Away - Ben Selvin Orchestra
38 Headin' for Better Times - Ted Lewis Orchestra
39 Let's Have Another Cup o’ Coffee [From: Face the Music] - Enric Madriguera
40 Sittin' on a Rubbish Can - Julia Gerity
41 Underneath the Arches - Henry Hall
42 Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? - Bing Crosby
43 Remember My Forgotten Man [From: Gold Diggers of 1933] - Freddy Martin
44 It Must Be Swell to Be Laying Out Dead - Alex Bartha
45 Supper Time [From: As Thousands Cheer] - Leo Reisman
46 Banking on the Weather [From: Crooner] - Russ Carlson
47 A Shanty in Old Shanty Town - Gene Kardos
48 (Here We Are) Rolling in Love [From: The Old Fashioned Way] - Joe Morrison
49 I'd Rather Be a Beggar With You - Gene Bullock
50 Here You Come with Love - Freddy Martin
51 Let's Put Out the Lights (And Go to Sleep) - Bing Crosby
52 The Clouds Will Soon Roll By - Graham Prince
53 Rome Wasn't Built in a Day [From: Roman Scandels] - Abe Lyman
54 If I Ever Get a Job Again - Gene Kardos
55 Them Good Old Times Are Coming Back Again - Ben Selvin Orchestra
56 Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf? [From: The Three Little Pigs] - Ben Bernie
57 There's a New Day Coming - Ted Lewis Orchestra
58 Buy America! - Ted Lewis Orchestra
59 Hey! Young Fella - Ruth Etting
60 The Grass Is Getting Greener - Victor Young
61 (I Went Hunting) And the Big Bad Wolf Was Dead [From: Cockeyed Cavalie] - Ted Fiorito
62 We're Out of the Red [From: Stand Up and Cheer] - Ramona Davies, Park Avenue Boys
63 We're in the Money (The Gold Diggers Song) [From: Gold Diggers of 1933] - Boswell Sisters
64 The Road Is Open Again [From: The Road Is Open Again] - Dick Powell
65 Let 'Em Eat Cake [From: Let 'Em Eat Cake] - Emil Coleman
66 In a One Room Flat [From: The Way to Love] - Freddy Martin
67 What Have We Got to Lose? (Hi-Ho-Lack-A-Day) - Phil Harris
68 Stringin' Along on a Shoe String - Henry Red Allen, Coleman Hawkins
69 When My Ship Comes In [From: Kid Millions] - Eddie Cantor
70 If I Had a Million Dollars [From: Transatlantic Merry-Go-Round] - Boswell Sisters
71 Our Penthouse on Third Avenue - Gene Kardos
72 Raisin' the Rent [From: The Cotton Club Revue] - Romona Bargy, Roy Bargy
73 Annie Doesn't Live Here Anymore - Chick Bullock
74 The Boulevard of Broken Dreams [From: Moulin Rouge] - Connie Boswell
75 Now I'm a Lady (Goin' to Town) - Paul Whiteman Orchestra
76 I Gotta Get Up and Go to Work - Adrian Rollini & the Gang
77 Gotta Go to Work Again [From: My Man Godrey] - Ted Wallace
78 Are You Making Any Money? - Chick Bullock
79 Got the Jitters - Ozzie Nelson
80 Rain - Don Bestor
81 With Plenty of Money and You [From: Gold Diggers of 1937] - Ink Spots
82 I'm Feeling Like a Million [From: Broadway Melody of 1938] - Teddy Hill
83 Slumming on Park Avenue [From: On the Avenue] - Red Norvo
84 Whistle While You Work [From: Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs] - Artie Shaw
85 W.P.A. - Louis Armstrong, Mills Brothers
86 Hey Pop! I Don't Wanna Go to Work - Kay Kyser
87 Dawn of a New Day - Horace Heidt
88 Happy Days Are Here Again - Ben Selvin Orchestra

"Poor Man's Heaven: Blues & Tales of the Great Depression," Bluebird CD 50958, 2003:

1 Eddie Cantor's Tips on the Stock Market - Eddie Cantor
2 A Tale of the Ticker - Frank Crumit
3 Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? - Leo Reisman And His Orchestra
4 Remember My Forgotten Man [Gold Diggers] - George Hall
5 It Must Be Swell to Be Laying Out Dead - Alex Bartha And His Hotel Traymore
6 Raisin' the Rent - Ramona, Roy Bargy
7 Sittin' on a Rubbish Can - Julia Gerity And Her Boys
8 Ten Cents a Dance [Simple Simon] - High Hatters
9 Poor Man's Heaven - Bud Billings, Carson Robison
10 The Rich Man and the Poor Man - Bob Miller
11 Hallelujah, I'm a Bum - Harry "Mac" McClintock
12 All In, Down and Out Blues - Uncle Dave Macon
13 Taxes on the Farmer Feeds Them All - Fiddlin' John Carson
14 How Can a Poor Man Stand Such Times and Live? - Blind Alfred Reed
15 The Farmer Relief Song - Vernon Dalhart
16 Dusty Old Dust (So Long It's Been Good to Know Yuh) - Woody Guthrie
17 35 Depression - Daddy Stovepipe, Mississippi Sarah
18 California Desert Blues - Lane Hardin
19 It's Hard Time - Joe Stone
20 President Roosevelt Is Everybody's Friend - J.M. Gates
21 Cwa Blues - Joe Pullum
22 Jimmy Shut His Store Doors - Cedar Creek Sheik
23 Welfare Store Blues - Sonny Boy Williamson
24 Poor But Ambitious - Wilmoth Houdini


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 20 Oct 02 - 10:34 AM

not underlined underlined


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Melani
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:15 PM

I'm trying this because I had no success with a blue clicky earlier.

http://www.nps.gov/safr/

The test link works fine, but I can't get the one in the post to work.

???


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Melani
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:17 PM

Whoopee! This time it worked!

???


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Melani
Date: 13 Feb 03 - 10:22 PM

Okay, one last experiment:

Balclutha


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Melani
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:40 AM

Tech support has arrived, so I'm gonna try the one that didn't work.

HERE


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 09:50 AM

PEACE

Aha! So THAT'S how you can change the font color with every letter! (used Joe's example at the link above). Now I just need to figure out how to get the font size back to normal ...


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:19 AM

There you go.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM

WAR   is   for   FOOLS

OK, feelin better now ...   :-)


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 02:06 AM

OK, so what's the ampersand code for a schwa?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:24 AM

Joe:
See ASCII Table it should inlude what you require, in Octal Hex & HTML

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Watson
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 01:19 PM

Very useful Nigel, but it doesn't answer Joe's query.
I don't believe there is a code for a schwa (looks like an upside down e)
If you look at on-line dictionaries with pronunciation guides, where a schwa indicates a neutral vowel, a gif is always used to represent the character.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:22 PM

http://www.mikmaq.com/language/extendedcharacters.html


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:38 PM

http://www.yha.co.uk


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: John Routledge
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:41 PM

testing testing

http://mudcat.com

works?


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 07:51 PM

Coding for the schwa character may be found on page 3 of the document on the Unicode Latin Extended-B character set at the Unicode Home Page site. The coding is given as 018F for the majuscule (capital) and 0259 for the minuscule. I haven't played with the HTML but I assume you need to specify the charactger set in a <font> tag set.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:35 PM

Voila!

This turned out to be much easier than I first thought. The codes given for the Unicode characters is in hexadecimal (base 16) notation. Converting the code 018F from hexadecimal to decimal yields 399 and converting the code 0259 to decimal yields 601.
Ergo…
&#399; displays as Ə (majuscule schwa) and
&#601; displays as ə (minuscule schwa)
Happy coding.

     - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:49 PM

Oh no it doesn't ....


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:21 AM

it doesn't, Noreen? It did in Mark's post..maybe you need a primer in Schwabian ;>}


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:31 AM

Nah, I get two rectangular boxes where the schwas should be in Mark's post.

Could this be because I don't have 547 different fonts available on my computer as you do, Bill?

:0)



(There must be a better plural than schwas. Schwaren?)


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:41 AM

hmmm...I only have 360 odd fonts installed..and several thousand more in reserve and on disk..*grin*...but no font is specified in Mark's post that I can see..unless '38' is a font..

I do see the schwazzzz, tho!


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:46 AM

I should note that I'm using Windows XP Professional SP1 with everything up to date and Internet Explorer 6.0 also fully up to date. Netscape is a nice browser too but around five years ago I found there was no longer any need to take up disk space with two browsers and since IE was required in my work, I dropped Netscape.

Of course I wouldn't have submitted my post above if I hadn't tested it and verified that the schwa characters displayed correctly on my own system. Character set support is part of the the HTML specification. If developers of a browser product choose not to implement the complete specification—found at the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) site—then I guess that's an issue between the developer and their customer base.

Noreen, What OS and browser do you use? And what do you see displayed above in my post purporting to display schwa characters?

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:01 AM

Sorry, Noreen, I started my post before you described what you see. I am curious about your OS and browser though. Still, the boxes you describe suggest that you may not have a font that contains a schwa character. Another possibility is that your OS doesn't support Unicode character sets.

‘38’ isn't a font specification. In the example, I coded the leading ampersand as &#38; so it wouldn't be seen by browsers as a valid character code. I wanted to show the coding without having it interpreted.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:04 AM

Windows 98, IE 6.0


Before (majuscule schwa) and (minuscule schwa) I see a rectangular box.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:23 AM

Just another note on the subject of schwa characters. I got curious about the font question and started looking through my fonts. The font called Times New Roman, a Unicode font, contains both of the schwa characters I posted above. I used the charmap program (Start->Run->charmap) to view the characters and found the characters at U+018F and U+0259 as specified. Below this, I'll simply paste those characters in from my charmap display, without any ampersand coding, and you can see if that makes a difference. If not, you might look to see that your browser is using the Times New Roman font as a default.
Ə    ə
I should note that as I type this post into the Mudcat post box, I see the correct characters I'm pasting even though my typing is displayed in a font I take to be Courier New. My charmap display indicates that Courier New is also a Unicode font and includes the subject characters.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 01:45 AM

Yep- it says Times new Roman and Courier New are used by my browser.

I looked up character map, but no schwa visible for Times New Roman or Courier New- where should it be?


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 02:43 AM

I found a Microsoft Knowledge Base Article on Unicode that may be helpful. It looks as though Win 95 and 98 may not have full support for Unicode character sets. My own Win 98 system isn't connected right now. I'll connect it tomorrow and see how it behaves with these characters.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Watson
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:38 AM

I'm with Noreen on this one - small rectangular boxes.
I'm using Windows 2000 professional.
It does make a difference, however, what you set the default font to on your browser. If I change to Times New Roman it's OK, as is Arial. My previous setting of Arial Narrow doesn't seem to include the schwa.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:18 AM

Bill, it DOES matter if you have 360 fonts installed.

I got the wee boxes, then I switched my browser's default font to Lucida Sans Unicode and I saw the schwa.
(I saw the schwa, I saw the schwa, no more boxes with me saying 'duh', now I'm so happy, cuz boxes are 'blah', Praise the Lord, I saw the schwa)

Anyway...
MSIE, Tools, Internet Options, 'Font' button (at the bottom) and mess with 'web page font' on the left side.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:34 AM

yup - that works.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:55 AM

but I detest that font - so I'll just switch around when I need special characters.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Watson
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:05 AM

Doesn't have to be that font - maybe you can find a font you like that has the special characters.
Try a few.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 06:11 PM

I am using Opera browser, and it has MANY confusing font settings. You can, if you work it out, have different fonts for every heading and display area...I have 'most'header stuff set to Times New Roman, but my basic (what I am reading in the messages) text font is Georgia, which come with Windows, and probably has schwa support...
One of these days, I am gonna see just what I can do with the settings, so I can control it all...


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:06 PM

I can see them at work (Win2K, IE 6.0) but not at home (Win98, IE5.5). Both using Times New Roman.


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:26 PM

I got my Win 98 machine put back together and found I was seeing little boxes instead of “schwaren.” Maybe tomorrow I'll have time to look for a solution for Win 98.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 10:20 PM

well...for what it's worth, I have Win98II, and I just checked using the Mozilla browser, and it shows just fine there, too...'twill be interesting to see what the key is..


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:14 PM

as a matter of interest, I have Win98II, and the schwa displays fine in both Opera and Mozilla browsers....but I don't understand where it is stored...I don't see it in either of the fonts I have as default, nor is it in the Symbols font, as some things are...
Where I DO find it is in a font called Grolier 2...here is a screen capture of part of that font, with the schwa at position 39. (lots of strange characters in it!)

It will be interesting to see what Mark comes up with as the key to the whole thing...that is, why I see it and Snuffy only sees it at work and why the fonts don't seem to make the difference..


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Noreen
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:33 AM

I saw the schwa, I saw the schwa!
Thanks for that Jeri- I converted to Lucida Sans Unicode and schwaren now appear.

I'll change back now tho- no time to play with other fonts at the mo.

Interrrresting!


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 11:47 AM

VERY interrrresting! I have 4 Lucida fonts (sans, handwriting, console, and typewriter), but not Unicode, and none of them are set as defaults anywhere..yet I see the schwaren always..Maybe it is Divine intervention..or Immaculate Punctuation ...."Oh, Thou Font of Every Schwaring"


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Nov 03 - 07:08 PM

I can see them with Lucida Sans Unicode, but they go back to boxes with Times


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 05:32 AM

Ə displays as Ə (majuscule schwa) and
ə displays as ə (minuscule schwa)


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:49 PM

..but where on my computer is the code that tells it to display Ə or ə ? And why do some fonts work and some don't? And why do I see them, even when those fonts are not specified?


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 03 - 08:52 PM

ƃ ţ ė ī ō


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Snuffy
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 09:04 AM

Bill,

My box at work (the one which shows schwas) shows #355 as a t with a comma below, #279 as an e with a dot above, #299 as i with a bar above and #333 as o with a bar above. But #387 just displays as a box; what should it be?

And the one at home will probably just show 5 boxes


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:07 PM

The character &#387; is hex 0183 in the font tables. My reference to the Unicode tables above shows this character as the character beh from the Cyrillic alphabet. This displays as an unknown character (rectangle) on my system as well. I have Cyrillic fonts on my system but I don't use them as default for Web browsing.

Bill D indicated above that he uses the Microsoft font called Georgia as his default but that font has the beh character at U+0411 (as does Times New Roman), not U+0183.

Curiouser and curiouser.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 12:56 PM

387 is a funny large thing like a lowercase 'b' with the vertical line bent 90° to the right....(I just picked those #s at random to see what would happen)

Į ş ė ʼn


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:20 PM

Bill, You've just described the Cyrillic character known as beh.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 01:27 PM

The Cyrillic character beh looks like Б in the New Times Roman font. (U+0411 = &#1041; for HTML purposes.)

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:21 PM

For those using the Unicode tables to look up characters, note that you can code a character using the hex character number without converting to decimal, if you insert an x after the # in the character code.

Mark gave the example of the beh which is decimal 387 and hex 183:

&#387; (decimal) should print ·

&#x183; (hex) should print the same ƃ

Win98 was built back in ancient times when large font sets weren't too much used. It is limited, by its word length, unless a programmer deliberately incorporates DWORD (double word) characters into specific functions. It takes 32 bits(or is it just 16?) to represent all of the Unicode character numbers, and Win98 isn't equipped to do that.

To some extent with Win2K, and fully with WinXP, the ability to use true Unicode fonts is available; but it's not a recommended practice except where necessary because of the very large size of full Unicode fonts.

Windows operates from "Code Pages" that contain instructions for how it responds to each given instruction. One of the things that's included in the code pages is the instruction for how to replace a given character number with a glyph - i.e. a graphic that displays the "character" in a selected font - for screen display. The setup of the machine, and the fonts selected, will determine which (of literally thousands) of possible code pages are loaded. Windows can flip through the pages that are loaded, to see whether it can represent an unusual character - is there a glyph for it in another code page - but it can only use the pages it has up.

[Persons with ancient experience will recall adding ANSISYS to their Autoexec.bat or Config.sys file to load the page for the ANSI, or "Extended ASCII" characters in the good old days – which did nothing but load an additional code page with glyphs for character numbers above decimal 064.]

Microsoft has produced a number of what they call "big fonts," that load additional code pages to permit display of characters that are not commonly used. Most of these contain glyphs only for "Western European" alphabets (with a few spares thrown in to fill out the pages). NONE of them contain a full Unicode character set.

With some limitations, Win98 can use "big font" pages, but you have to go get them - almost on purpose. Win98 users who happen to have them most likely got them with an IE upgrade, since it's the program displaying the document that determines what the characters should look like. Some "big fonts" may have been included in Office updates, but it's a little tricky to say what's available. Win98 is obsolete, and is NOT fully supported, and the Office versions commonly used with it may, or may not, have similar status. Update tools for identifying what you can add may not be readily available. Existing downloads are mostly still there, at Microsoft's download site(s) but you may have to figure out for yourself what you want.

A particular problem arises from Microsoft's failure to rename the newer "big fonts." There is no simple way, in Win98, to tell whether a given font, such as Times New Roman, is on your machine in the "old" version or in the "big font" version. Most Unicode fonts will include "Unicode" or "UC" in the font name, but even that is not guaranteed.

An additional difficulty comes from the "Internationalization" of Windows and Windows applications. Those who purchase their Windows in Germany will get a different set of code pages than those who get theirs in the UK, which is in turn different than what you get in the US. In general, the characters each can use is pretty much the same, but they may be arranged differently on the code pages to facilitate access to the characters most frequently used, in the language expected to be most often used.

If you see the little rectangle, it's because – in the font you're using to view the document, the "little rectangle" IS THE GLYPH used by that font to represent the character number called for in the document. Nothing that can be done to the document will make that character number show a different glyph. If you want to see something else there, you must change to a display font that associates some other "picture" with that character number on the machine displaying the document.

The only real problem is in figuring out which of the fonts you have, or can get, uses that different picture.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:39 PM

Well, not only did I pick an example most people won't be able to see, I mistyped the code as well.

A simpler one: the letter j is hex 06A and decimal 0179. You can read both numbers from the WinXP Character Map.

&#0179; should print ³

&#x06A; should print j

If this doesn't work, I'll be off re-reading my O'Reilly.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:41 PM

that example gives me a superscript "3" and the lower case j


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 03:52 PM

Yeah, my Char Map only displays the decimal when you hover on a character, but when the character is "selected" to show the hex/Unicode number, it enlarges and covers adjacent ones. The hover picked up a "superscript 3" in the line below (Times New Roman) and read me the decimal for it.

Decimal character j (06A hex) is actually 0106. A (hex) = 10 (decimal), 60 (hex) = 6*16 (dec) = 96 (dec), 10+96 = 106.

&#0106; = j
&#x06A; = j

Back to my nap.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 05:51 PM

thanks, John...that helps a lot to understand why it is so hard to understand..*grin*...I will re-read all that several times...


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 07:22 PM

John, As usual, your technical explanation is excellent. Thanks for posting all the answers. I've been too busy to make good on my promise and the detail you prdovided goes well beyond what I would have come up with.

And thanks for hex tip. I was unaware that hex values could be used in HTML ampersand encoding.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Nov 03 - 11:02 PM

Mark -

The conversion between hex and decimal is pretty straight forward, but it gets really tedious if you have to do a lot of them - especially if you don't do it often. For some arcane reason, Unicode is standardized on the use of hex character numbers, so you can go to the Unicode standard and find the hex char number for any (known?) character, in virtually any alphabet/language that's been written.

The Char Map in Win98 gives you the decimal char number (ANSI) for quite a few characters. The Char Map in WinXP gives you the hex char number (Unicode) for virtually all of them. Theoretically, the WinXP Char Map will show the decimal value, if you "hover" on the character; but it's sometimes a little balky, and the display makes errors (as above) pretty common.

If you go to the Windows upgrade center, the Office upgrade center, and the IE center, etc., at Microsoft, you can let the site "survey" your machine and tell you what's available - for current software. Since Win98 is no longer a "supported product," I'm not sure that function is available for it. You should, however, be able to find a list of "available updates/upgrades" that will include some add-ins to allow use of more characters than were available when Win98 was new. There was a separate Win98/IE5 update to add support for the "euro" € character, for example, for US users who didn't get it with their releases.

Most of the "tech notes" on character representation seem to have been written when Win2K was relatively new; and they haven't been very will updated to tell what's available for WinXP. Fortunately, much of what you might want is "built-in" in XP. The Tahoma font, used for all the little message boxes, is generally a "full Unicode" font, for Western European (including cyrillic) characters. Most of the fonts that come with XP and corresponding Office suites are at least in the "big font" category, so they'll display most characters. The exceptions are mostly "banner" or "headline" fonts.

The thing that's missing in the "normal" Office XP installation is support for "right-to-left" character alignment, and glyphs for the characters in idiographic/pictographic languages (like Chinese, etc.).

If you buy your Office XP in a version "localized" for Israel or China (maybe for Japan?), you get those features. Otherwise, there is an add-in; but so far as I've been able to determine, the necessary add-in is only available on XP-Server distribution and/or resource kit disks. Not something accessible to most of us ($$$$$$$).

The "Bible" for all this is supposed to be a book called Developing International Software, 2d edition<, in the "Dr. International" Series from Microsoft Press (ISBN 0-7356-1583-7, © 2003). It's horribly expensive, and horribly written, however; so purchase is NOT to be recommended. You might pick up a first edition fairly cheaply, but it's © 1995, so pretty much out of date.

The most detailed and reliable information comes from the "Microsoft Developers Network" website, but unless you write code (I don't) and have the Software Developers' Kit (I don't), extracting anything meaningful there is extremely tedious. Most people would be well advised to wait for the movie version.

For most users, a check to see if there are IE and Office updates available, particularly updates that include font and/or character set/language upgrades, should be done.

With up to date IE, especially, most setups, including Win98, should have at least a couple of fonts that will display the majority of characters you're likely to see on the web (Japanese/Chinese language sites excepted). Trial and error is as useful as any other method for finding which ones you have that will work for you.

John


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 12:57 AM

Thanks, John. Actually, hex conversion isn't a problem for me, I've been doing it my head for thirty-five years or so. If I'm feeling lazy, I've any number of hex converters available including my Palm VII. I may be the last living person who can actually read a core dump.

My work with fonts tends toward the type one Adobe fonts and Knuth's Computer Modern fonts associated with TeX, LaTeX and Metafont. I use Word (Office XP Pro) for the odd client document but my own preference for nice looking documents is LaTeX. I run teTeX in Cygwin under Win XP Pro and my primary editor is GNU EMACS. I've done Windows MFC development in C and C++ but these days I tend to favor tools that support open development and the ability to target several OSs with a single code base. When PostScript printers were first introduced—but before GUIs came along—I used to hand code PostScript files just to make overhead transparancies that looked nice—a skill that came in handy when I started using a, then new, NeXT Workstation

I'm accustomed to specifying octal and hex values in source files and and in regular expressions using the backslash escaping syntax I just don't do enough hard core HTML or to have retained all the details of ampersand character encoding. I am, though, one of a relatively small number of people who've actually used Tim Berners-Lee's original text-only Web browser.

Now what Mudcat needs is a help page explaining to users of the older technologies how to configure their systems so they can see schwa characters as Joe begins including them in his posts.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Help: HTML practice
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 03 - 06:32 AM

Mark -

You assume that a significant number of mudcatters read anyone's posts carefully enough to notice a missing schwa here or there?

I'm just a simple mechanic, who got into 'puters to get the paperwork out. I've done some DOS, a very little C, and played with some of the BASIC macro functions, but never had much chance to get with op systems other than DOS and Windows.

I have been a PostScript enthusiast since I discovered I could make drawings by hand coding. Not too long ago, I had to produce a half-dozen aircraft component development specs, on a tight schedule and with no usable "drafting" facilities, so I hand coded all the drawings in PostScript for insertion into Word documents. Tedious, but it worked beautifully.

John


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