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History and Folk Music
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:56 AM And a case in point from your own post; although the wearing of Highland dress (rather than "tartan") was indeed forbidden for a while, the bagpipes were never proscribed. That is a myth of later years; see, in an earlier discussion here, The bagpipes in the aftermath of Collodden Burns was quite a prolific collector of folksongs and tunes, and was indeed concerned with preserving them; but the perceived threat to them was not from any legislation, but from the urbanisation that had already begun in his day, and the tendency of the growing middle classes in Scotland (and England, for that matter) to aspire to a bourgeois "art music" cultural model based on fashionable Continental forms rather than on "native" tradition. The object was in large degree to make Scottish vernacular music culturally respectable, and in this he and his colleagues were pretty successful on the whole. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill Date: 14 Dec 01 - 06:18 AM Hi Malcolm, thanks for the correction. I had a read down through the thread you referred to - as I concluded in my mail above fascinating stuff! cheers Bill. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: richardw Date: 16 Dec 01 - 12:10 PM Jumping back a little here-- I agree with Art's message. Dicho is also on target for me but in correcting Art also makes some common assumptions that are not entirely accurate. The first cattle drives were not Texas to Montana. They were from old California, Washington and Territories to the goldrush camps of BC in the 1860s. There are lots of records of these drives and we hope one day to find the songs that tell the story. Dicho says: "Songs do reflect areas, but only to a certain extent. The area of old songs was, as you say, in the southern mountains, but also in the piedmont and coastal areas, where people settled early and stayed." I may be misunderstanding the term "old songs" but we have found many songs here in B.C. (that's Canada) that do indeed reflect place, occupation and time. Not only do we find certain "popular" songs being sung in the 1860s-70s but also songs being brought in from other traditions and new songs being written to feflect the current work and time. For instance, some miners had previousle been Irish constables, had fought under Wellington at Waterloo, probably under Napoleon as well and many had come from the Crimean War. So those songs were being sung in B.C. goldfields. Then we have men like James Anderson, a Soct on whom I am writing a biography and CD, who used poets of the day like Hood, Tennyson and Burns, to write songs and poems reflecting his situation. One in particular "Rough But Honest Miner" was a favorite of miners. How do we know it reflects popular opinion? Because he was asked to sing it over and over at the local music hall. (The words of this song have been posted here about a year ago.) So I would argue that these songs, for example, do reflect concensus, as do many other. He also wrote one of the first labour poems or songs, modeled on Hoods "Song of the Shirt". Dicho says: "They may be documents but they must be interpreted within the context of history." That is so for ANY document. If we think a lettter or diary or journal is any different we are wrong. Letters reflect who is being written TO, not just the writer. And diaries and journals even more so. Journals were written for someone to read. Find out who and new light is shed. If for oneself then they show one side. If they are written for mother or wife or husband to read they will be written quite differently. Enough for know. This is a great thread. BTW I am not arguing with Dicho, just discussing this facinating topic. Th words to "Rough but" are also found here, as is more information on Anderson. http://goldrushbc.com/anderson.htm Richard Wright
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:27 PM Richardw, you have a point about the cattle drives in relation to the gold fields. I was objecting to the laying of hands solely on Texas for cattle drives. "By old songs," I was referring to the old ballads (Child material, etc.), 18C or earlier, that were preserved in the areas of old settlement. I should have written more clearly. Speaking of British Columbia and Canada, I get questioning looks when I mention the Hawaiians working as voyageurs. Most people in B. C. know about the Hawaiian carpenters that helped build Fort Langley, and helped in the Hudson's Bay trading efforts, but not elsewhere. And, of course, the Hawaiians working for the Spanish in California in the hides trade. And the first cowboys outside of Louisiana and the Spanish areas were those in Hawaii, Mexican vaqueros rounding up cattle left on the Big Island by Vancouver and others (pre-Gold Rush days). Lots of stuff for which we have, in our culture, no or few preserved folk songs. (Whoopie-ky-yi-yo may be LA French according to some scholars, but was more likely vaquero range communication) |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Dec 01 - 05:15 PM When I was told that the Alabama was sunk in 64 not 65, I thought about it and decided that going to her grave was amuch better ending to the song that starts with her keel being laid.Being a few months out is not as important as a good last line. Apart from fiddling the facts to improve the song, folk song is inevitably partisan. Most British versions of Plains of Mexico award the battle of Monterey to Santiana. Did the British really run at New Orleans? Heave away, Keith. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Dec 01 - 05:41 PM Santiana? Do you mean President and General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, the great Mexican patriot and hero? The battle near New Orleans was a post-war victory, fought two weeks after the cessation of hostilities. Such were communications at the time. Legend has the pirate Lafitte contributing to victory. Did the British run? Honestly, I don't know. How many were involved? Not all that many, but the battle (skirmish?) contributed little to history, although much to legend. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Dec 01 - 06:18 PM Well, cowboy songs were, very generally, all over the western part of my U.S. map. Granted, I hadn't put many of those in Oregon and Washington. Those states were full up with "Portland County Jail", "Acres Of Clams" and some of Woody's songs--"Roll On Columbia" etc. Only one of those might've been sung by people all the way "From California to the New York Island" though. ;-)
The map, like the songs, didn't have to be totally accurate to get the idea over that there were different Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Aldus Date: 17 Dec 01 - 09:50 AM Many years ago I did a thesis on the Industrial Revolution in Yorkshire. What I discovered was that the feeling of the ordinary person was often to be found in songs. In fact , social history is often told through music.Although not a factual source,songs often convey the emotions of the time much better that any other source. This is a most enjoyable thread, I have learned a lot |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: PeteBoom Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:08 PM Regarding the British at New Orleans. No, they did not run. No matter that the song written 140 years after the event said they did. No contemporary accounts describe anything other than a grudging withdrawl from the major (last) assault. Pakenham (British commander) was fighting in bad ground - his heavy equipment had to be brought through the bayou by boat - even though there were places where the water was only inches deep. Where Jackson's command had the time and resources to make rudimentary defenses - including the cotton-bale breast-works shown in the movies - they also firmed up the defensive line by building gun platforms for artillery from wood planking. They brought in barrels of dirt to build defensive positions that were higher than the very wet ground surrounding them - giving them an edge in two ways - First, the defenders could be more or less dry - they could build fires and dry out wet clothing. They could have hot meals on a regular basis. This meant they were better rested and, even though on alert regularly for some two weeks, more fresh than the British troops who had come by ship to be landed in a swamp where they had no landmarks they could recognize. Second, and this is subtle and is often times missed by armchair generals who have had no experience in close-order drill. The attackers found themselves looking UP at the defenders - even if only by a few inches in places. That can be a fairly demoralizing situation to be in, no matter how battle hardened your rank-and-file are. Jackson controlled the initiative from the onset - he kept roving patrols of dragoons operating between the lines on an irregular schedule - this kept the British from obtaining solid information about what the defenses looked like, their size, etc. He also sent small units out nightly to attack pickets and keep them in close to the British camp. Finally, he sent marksmen as close to the British camp as they dared go to pick off British officers. They'd fire a round and move - then fire again. These things combined to wear down British resolve. New Orleans is often shown, and in the song was implied to be, a veritable turkey shoot. In reality, it was a close-run thing. The main British column was stopped short of the defenses with great loss of life. The American left (if I remember right) was actually driven from their positions. Quick action by the American gunners kept the British troops from using the captured American artillery for firing down the American lines. If this had happened, it is likely that the outcome would have been very different. The riflefire that cut down the British infantry would have been facing point-blank artillery from their own ranks. This would have allowed the British main force to overwhelm the defenders. The American artillery officer on that flank was able to get the guns spiked and destroyed the prepared cartidges (threw them in the water). This made the loss of the flank a mere side-show to the bloody main event. Jackson was heavily criticised by armchair "regular army" types for not pressing home his advantage and attacking the British army while it withdrew back to the waiting ships. This criticism was unwarranted. What most people do not realize is that even with massive losses, the British forces outnumbered the Americans nearly 3 to 1. Jean Lafitte (that does not look right... ah well) assisted in reality, not just legend - his "privateers" joined the American ranks as gunners, bringing their own heavy artillery on ships' gun carraiges - massive pieces that were three and four times the weight of the American field artillery Jackson had otherwise. Also, the residents of New Orleans took up arms. One, I've forgotten his name, had been a general of artillery under Napoleon, had retired and emigrated to New Orleans after the Napoleon was sent to Elba. He was credited with directing the fire of a couple of huge pieces that detroyed or damaged the largest pieces in the British artillery park. That left the attacking infantry without effective artillery protection. THAT allowed the American artillery to fire on the British infantry instead of British artillery. Sorry for the history lesson. Just could not resist... Pete |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Frank Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:47 PM History gets the facts but the songs get the spirit of the times. Even then, those "facts" are subject to interpretation. Some of the "facts" in songs are made up by a point-of-view. The reporting becomes less accurate when history is older. Sometimes folklore and history can become blurred such as the Washington Cherry-Tree myth. Or "I cannot tell a lie". I think that Joseph Campbell is right about the myth being as important as the fact in assessing the meaning of history. Frank |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Mr Red Date: 17 Dec 01 - 05:43 PM Actually these songs can be merely the seed, the kernal, the starting point of a very interesting fuller story. Take the Alabama and the Kearsarge, I read/heard somewhere that the stand-off at Cherburg took so long that 10,000 people were standing on the cliffs to watch the showdown. I suppose the modern equivalent of that would be CNN (et al) in Afghanistan. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 17 Dec 01 - 05:55 PM This is a great thread, and really a pretty inexhaustible topic; how much of the "news" we get with all of our global village technology is objectively factual, and how much is ANYTHING 100% "true", when we all see things from our own individual perspectives? I'd say, as an historian, that in order to get the best possible chance at actually understanding what happened at any time (even yesterday!), you'd just have to get as many opinions & versions from as many sources as are available, and let's face it---you're still going to ultimately draw your own conclusions based on the accumulated data. Now, about that alligator..... |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: rich-joy Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:24 AM I seem to recall reading a book on this very (most interesting) subject some years ago - by British Folk Historian, ROY PALMER - but it was a library book and I don't have the reference - worth chasing up though, to read the comparisons between various folksongs and the accepted history on the particular subject ... Cheers, R-J |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:35 AM ..also Battle of New Orleans: some UK singers sing "Jackson" instead of "Pakenham" as the British leader (I've been guilty myself in the distant past), thus making him change sides! BTW Just how many miles is it on the Cumberland Gap: 14,16,19? RtS (final staff meeting today to hand over my jobs: they've brought in a trained chimp especially, but he may be overqualified) |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Keith A at work Date: 18 Dec 01 - 07:41 AM Er..the version I know doesn't name the Brit commander, but gives the US cmndr as Packenham.(P. said we could take them by surprise...) so according to Pete Boom, those UK singers were right Roger. Re the artillery, what size shot can be stuffed in an alligator's head? Keith. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:26 AM I think I meant sang Packenham instead of JACKSON...or whatever...should be: "Along with Col Jackson to the mighty Mississip" AS Pete Broom says,Pakenham was the Brit commander, Jackson the American. RtS (nobody stays to listen to me beyond the first line any way!) |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:21 AM My husband came home last night to find me hunched over the computer (I've been home with the 'flu), cross-referencing various folk songs & Child ballads w/various mediaeval literature. What I think is so fascinating is this sort of basically unchanging vocabulary of themes that recur over and over; just as many of Chaucer, Bocaccio & Gower's stories have roots going back at least as far as Ovid, many of the traditional ballads are essentially telling these same stories, woth very slight variations. One can easily see how exploring & researching these connections can become an OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE behaviour (especially when one is running a fever)! ;-) |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: PeteBoom Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:31 AM Back into it - try "Ol' Hick'ry said we could take 'em by surprise...". With that being a nick-name given Jackson during the Creek campaign of 1812-13. Pete |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Jim Dixon Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:59 AM I like this quote: "The use of history . . . is to rescue from oblivion the lost causes of the past. History is especially important when those lost causes haunt us in the present as unfinished business." [Paul (?) Goodman, 1960]. In general, history – at least the part of it we are usually taught in school – has done a lousy job of rescuing those lost causes. Folk music has a chance of filling the gap. |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM When I was a pupil, history lessons tended to be a listing of monarchs (or presidents later on), dynastic interests and a lot of battles, and woe to you, when you forgot the years everything happened in. It were the folksongs where I first learned how the common man felt in those times glorious of victories (defeats are mostly mentioned only when the opposite site got a good biffing. Naturally there are a lot of historical songs, e.g. about the battle at Pavia in 1525, where the German lansquenets beat the French and Swiss, or the deeds of their General v. Frundsberg,where the main events are meticulously reported. Opposite to them are the soldiers songs describing their hard life pressed to service, how they were drilled, beaten with rods, or the terrors of the battlefields (... here you see lying a head cut off, here an aram; God ha' mercy on us, as a German songs puts it). Also the songs of various trades, some proud, some very dreary, especially the bricklayers working in danger on their high scaffoldings. Those songs give a living impresion of the life of our ancestors, and sometimes I'm glad to live in our times with a lot of progres making life a little bit easier. But the best example I know are the songs of the German revolution in 1848-49. The songs are still sung, especially you heard them at the 150th anniversary. Nearly every family in South Germany has lost a member killed in action, executed, jailed or, in the best case, fled to the US of A because fighting for freedom. From the singers I learned a totally different approach to history than at school, where we learned, how a rebellion was subdued by the forces of law and justice. These songs held alive the memory of their grand- and great grandfathers and their burdens fighting for a noble cause. Wilfried |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Susanne (skw) Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:36 PM Desdemona - I don't need to run a fever, actually! It's a great way of pretending to yourself you're too busy to do the washing up, or write that article you promised when the deadline was comfortably far away. I hold the Mudcat, and the opportunities for song research it provides, largely responsible for the growing mounds of unfinished business around my computer ... |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Gareth Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:48 PM Just a thought Wilfred - Is Lille Marlene history, and if so whose ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: GUEST,Desdemona Date: 18 Dec 01 - 07:00 PM Susanne-AHA! So that's why my house is such a pigsty! I KNEW it couldn't be my tepid enthusiasm for housewifery that was to blame..... Thanks for alleviating my incipient sense of personal responsibility ;-) ! In perfect truth, I need little excuse to neglect my domestic tasks in favour of historical minutiae (to say nothing of my job!); it's just nice to know I'm not alone! |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: Susanne (skw) Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM Same here, Desdemona! :-) |
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Subject: RE: History and Folk Music From: robomatic Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:16 PM I learned from Warren Zevon how commandos are able to be so mobile: We parachute in, we parachute out Death from above we're screaming now
Sweat and muscle and jungle work |
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