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Old-time music in a rut?
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Subject: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:16 PM I've been playing fiddle in an old-time string band for ten years, or so I guess. And lately I've been wondering if the genre isn't getting into a rut. It seems that I hear new groups taking up the music, playing fiddle tune, after fiddle tune, after fiddle tune. Then I go back and listen to some of the old groups from the twenties and thirties, and realize that perhaps half or two thirds of their recorded material was made up of vocal selections. Consider the Skillet Lickers, the Bogtrotters, or Charlie Poole & the North Carolina Ramblers. The vocal tradition continued on into the sixties and seventies with groups like the New Lost City Ramblers, the Highwoods String Band, Any Old Time String Band, the Hotmud Family (who were really great vocalists) and others. What are your thoughts? I removed the BS: designation from this thread. This is a music discussion, and the BS: designator should not be used for music discussions. There are people who use a BS: filter because they come here looking only for music discussions. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Ebbie Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:28 PM I do know that audiences, whether in concert or in nursing homes and festivals, like vocals better than just one instrumental after another. (An audience of musicians, rather than a cross-section, may have a different take on it) In one group I was in, the leader, a fiddler, wasn't interested in songs, only tunes. We rarely got the listeners actively involved. Then the group members shifted, and with the new members on board, we started doing songs primarily, with an instrumental medley from time to time. Big difference- not only is our own enjoyment deeper, the audience dances! I buy some CDs and tapes that are strictly instrumental but by far most of the ones I buy are vocals. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:36 PM Actually, I buy more classical chamber music CDs than old-time music. And I consider myself fortunate to play in a very versatile group. Not only does the band really tear the house down at dances, but we have four very good singers who really are developing a tight vocal harmony style. Makes me proud. So what recordings would you recommend, Ebbie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Phil Cooper Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:39 PM I like both instrumental and vocal music. Some friends who run some of the recording booths at festivals mention occasionally a militant instrumental only faction that want CD's and tapes "with no sangin'" on them. I would be hard pressed to think of an instrumentalist that could hold an audience's attention just with their selection of tunes (I'm thinking of artists who wind up doing extended humorous introductions to their tunes as part of the show). At home I may put on an all instrumental recording and do other work. But I rarely do that with vocal recordins, because I stop what I'm doing and pay attention to the songs. In the old time field there's something hypnotic about the way the tunes are played (I'm thinking of night campfire sessions where the tunes seem to get the musician's into a group trance). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:47 PM Jim & Ebbie: I share your feelings. I've been involved with a sort of old timey group here, and when the "dominant herd cow" is a fiddler, the jams and performances seem to be skewed too much toward tunes, and not enough vocals. On the nights when there's been an even mix, the audiences seem much more appreciative. As one rather dry observer said about hearing a long evening of fiddle tunes "It's kind of like masturbation, those who are doing it seem to be having fun, but watching ain't much fun !" The observations about Charlie Poole et al seem right on - I much more enjoy the vocals. But, on the other hand, in reading the foreword to the Old Time String Band songbook by Mike Seeger and the rest of the New Lost City Ramblers, Seeger quotes an early recording company rep as saying that there were many more instrumentalists than singers. The rep had to actively look for singers to record, while the instrumentalists approached him. But, to reinforce our feelings, the rep apparently had the gut feeling that vocals were what would sell records.
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:53 PM Oh yeah. Been there, done that, and even got kissed a time or two re. the late night jams around the campfire. But even there, after a while, I secretly wish some one would launch out into a song, even something like "Sugar Hill" or "Fortune" or "Who Broke the Lock". If I want background music, I usually listen to the local NPR affiliate, say while I'm sewing, or doing some light reading. But I think you're making my point, Phil: that a musical group has to have a mix to really entertain well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Fortunato Date: 14 Dec 01 - 02:55 PM Jim, Last year my wife and I took our Old-Time Country Music to Mount Airy and Rockbridge for the first time. I'd been out of it for some years, since I'd played with Doc Scantlin's Red Hot Peppers. At Mount Airy we tented near long time friends and looked to play with them. We found that vocals were not particularly welcome. They played fiddle tunes in A for one day and fiddle tunes in D the next day. No retuning. Well, when we offered to sing a song in the KEY OF THE DAY, we were tolerated. It wasn't fun. Now later on Bruce Hutton (I believe you know him) showed up and we shared some songs. At Rockbridge we hoped for better since Mike Seeger's view of Old Time includes our Delmore Brother/Carter Family orientation. No difference, tune after tune. Limited sample I know, but I whole-heartedly agree with you based on our experience. That's fine if that's what they like, but I enjoy the vocals. I also enjoy playing, as I did with the Red Hot Peppers, a Riley Pucket form of guitar which includes A LOT more notes than these folks seem to want to hear. I don't mean a lot of unrelated notes, I mean the 'right' notes. In short let me know what festivals you plan to go to, 'cause I like fiddle tunes, but not non-stop for three days. Susette and I would love to try a few songs with you. Chance Shiver |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 14 Dec 01 - 03:06 PM Fortunato, Well, being out here on the Great Plains (some cynic would say Great Pains) of Kaunsaslaunt, I don't get much of a chance to go east. With any luck, I might be a Winfield next year. Barring that, I have contingency plans of going to the Eastern Primitive Rendezvous in Lancaster Co. PA. I agree with Mike S about including the Delmores and the Carters as old-time musicians. And I can well imagine that Ralph Peer had to turn away a lot of instrumentalists. The interesting thing about living in Kansas is there isn't any sort of identifiable fiddling style associated with the state. But there is quite a respectable body of folk song from the state. Must've been the drys that kicked out the rowdy, drunken fiddlers and their ilk. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,Chip & Tish A. Date: 14 Dec 01 - 03:40 PM We agree. I (Chip) don't sing but Tish does. "Old time" music seems to have been narrowed down to just a small slice of what was sung and played in the old times. Dance tunes are fun to play but are only part of the whole. Also, playing styles seem to have been narrowed down as well. I'm thinking of banjo as that's what I play. (What you said, Fortunato). It seems a shame to leave out so much. Peace, Chip |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 14 Dec 01 - 04:09 PM A couple of years ago, I was kidding around with a teenage nephew of mine whose friends had a ska band. He apologized for their vocals. I told him that with some of the string bands I've heard it sounds like they drew straws, and who ever lost had to sing. My favorite old-time band is Charlie Poole, and I used to love to hear Pete Stampfel and the Holy Modal Rounders put their weird twist to those old songs by Charlie and other primitive sounding string bands. My favorite more recent old-time string bands have been Double Decker (no duh!) and Major Contay and the Canebrake Rattlers. At festivals, it seems like the jam sessions in the corner are 100% instrumental. I think that old-time music definitely needs a shot in the larynx... not the right arm... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Midchuck Date: 14 Dec 01 - 04:48 PM Happy to see others that feel this way; that it isn't just me. The reference to masturbation is fortuitous. Around here, you get old-time jams that essentially involve three or four fiddlers, maybe a banjo player, standing in a tight, closed, circle and playing the same (simple) tune over and over for twenty minutes, in a sort of trance. It's exceedingly dull for everyone but those few musicians. The phenomenon is referred to locally as a "fiddlers' circle-jerk." Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Sorcha Date: 14 Dec 01 - 04:52 PM I agree, (our bunch does almost all instrumentals) but you have to have at least one person that 1)CAN sing and 2)is also willing. 3)Knowing the words helps too. I only qualify on the second one. The lady who qualifies on the first does not on the 2nd and 3rd. The gent who qualifies on the 3rd does not qualify on the 2nd. ooooo--- does that sound like lawyer-speak or what? (grin) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Rick Fielding Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:07 PM Jim, you win my (No cash prizes) award for MUDCAT THREAD OF THE YEAR! I guess singing old time music is simply not as much fun as gettin' into a hypnotic fiddle funk for a few hours. Same with most of the old time banjo frailers. I think it's a "zen" thing. Me? I luvs them vocal type songs! 'course if I was a better fiddler..... Rick P.S. Chance, keep playing those Riley Puckett and Alton Delmore lines....I'll be listenin' at least. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:50 PM I'll probably have the Green Mafia after me for this, but I see the same sort of instrumental thing happening in the Celtic sessions hearabout. And I still remember how disapointed I was on seeing both the Chieftans and the Boys of the Lough in concert and finding out they perform about 80% tunes and 20% vocals -- of course the tunes were marvelous, but I still wanted to hear the human instrument - the voice ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: RangerSteve Date: 14 Dec 01 - 05:56 PM It's nice to see there are folks out there that feel the way I do. Fortunately, I've been in bands that liked to sing, and my current band is the same way. Maybe when any of us singers plans on going to an old-time music festival, we should post it here - something like" I'll be at (name of festival), I've got a (description of your car,tent,etc.) That way we'll know who the singers are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 14 Dec 01 - 07:03 PM The situation appears to mirror many UK sessions where all that is played consists of Irish music. The majority of what is played are Reels. You seldom hear a jig, almost never a slow air. If a hornpipe is played, the lilt of it is flattened out to the tempo of a reel. I can usually join in or listen for about 20 minutes after which it just becomes a Diddley-Diddley blur where everything sounds just like something done previously. GtD.
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Bill D Date: 14 Dec 01 - 11:11 PM I suppose that more people can learn to tune an instrument than can learn to sing....and when the band is playing for a dance, tunes are great...but 'most' tune sessions are for the musicians, to learn, share (read *show off*) and do the trance thing...I can be impressed for a bit, but not entertained for very long. I did watch 20 minutes of a 'fiddle down' late one night behind a barn...tween Mark O'Connor and Jimmy Giles... they both drank beer and played every wild lick they could dredge up...now THAT was entertaining! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: X Date: 14 Dec 01 - 11:33 PM I would trade half of my skill on the 5-string if I could sing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Phil Cooper Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:25 AM Sometimes going out to sing at all instrumental sessions is like sneaking out to the parking lot for a smoke. Fun when a couple of you can participate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Sorcha Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:42 AM Bill, Jimmy Giles has just started performing again in public (2 years ago) because of the "crayture" and Mark O'Connor can't please an audience to save himself. By his own admission, he "spent too many years as a side man".....(heard that 2 yrs ago from his own mouth).
Marks' is one of the very few concerts I have ever walked out on. Mark at that time couldn't find a melody to save himself, let alone a lead. Sad for both of them. Neither are the "boy wonder" that they once were, but Jimmy seems to be bouncing back better as an entertainer than Mark. Mark (in MHO) just seems to want to promote Mark.....Mark is trying to do everything and doing none of it very well, while Jimmy is just getting back to the basics of entertaining. Just my opinion of course.........(and I think I know where that Barn was............) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Bsondahl Date: 15 Dec 01 - 10:42 AM I know when I go to a jam, I'm itching to give my fingers a workout, even though I like singing. It's harder to get a bunch of new voices to sound reasonable together than new instruments, but it sounds great when it does happen. And it's harder to remember the lyrics, and they often don't turn out to be the same version of lyrics or tune, so that takes its toll on singers as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Alice Date: 15 Dec 01 - 11:43 AM I heartily agree about songs seeming to be ebbing away. As most of you know, singing is my main interest, although I have been partaking in a (mostly Irish) session since 1995. I think we have a great session here, but I recall that a few years ago, there were more breaks in the instrumentals, for a song. I sense that one of the main singers in the session, who is very good and has a great memory for songs, has sung less since he picked up whistles and flute. He's great at those, too, but I really miss hearing the songs. I am one of the few who sing at the session, but I started a separate monthly song circle a year ago, just because I felt there was a need for more time set aside for singing. Very few people come to the song circle compared to the instrumental session.
When I grew up, people in my home would sing as they went about the house, doing daily tasks, and we would sing for our own fun. My mother's family were an example for that, too. The guitars and piano were there for tunes, but the voice is always with you. It just seems like singing in the US has been pushed out of ordinary folks' experience. People listen to recordings instead of singing themselves, and the interest in old songs has waned. Alice |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:28 PM Howzabout this! Who sings unaccompanied anymore? (I mean, when they're SOBER.) There are some songs that need to be sung unaccompanied. There is a freedom of phrasing (and feeling) that comes with unaccompanied singing and some songs just don't sound as good with instrumental accompaniement. Some of the old hymns get all the kinks taken out of them when you shoe-horn them into an instrumental arrangement. Amazing Grace never sounds sweeter to me than when it is sung by a large group of singers, unaccompanied. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Alice Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:29 PM Jerry, I do, I do... Click Here (sing unaccompanied, that is). Alice |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:00 PM Hi, Alice: I did click the bluey. Sounds like you're doing good stuff. I ran a folk concert series for 27 years at the Stamford Museum, in Connecticut. I had the great pleasure of booking Jean Redpath, Louie Killen, and my friend Roy Harris, and even though I didn't end up booking her, always loved to listen to Helen Schneyer over here. I still like to sing some stuff a capella, and my gospel quartet does several songs that way. There's something beautiful about the human voice with the only adornment coming from the heart. Som human voices. The original question here was about old-time string bands getting in a rut. Ironically, many if not most of the postings have been about "jams." The question has been answered. To many musicians, old-time music IS jams. I thought it was more than jamming on fiddle tunes. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,Arnie Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:15 PM Well it seems to me that there are more and more really good traditional fiddle and banjo players appearing these days. I think it's actually the opposite of a rut. The overwhelming availability of music to learn on recordings - especially releases of old and new fiddlers, is producing a lot of enthusiasm amongst players. Over the years when these recordings become available , you get to hear what folks are playing at the festivals from year to year. For quite a while it was Tommy Jarrell tunes, then John Salyer tunes, then Ed Haley tunes, now West Virginia tunes are really popular amongst the jamming crowd. A generation ago all we got to hear mainly was Charlie Poole, Dave Macon, The Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers and a few new stringbands who drew their material from what they could listen to. Thanks to these bands who managed to listen to a lot of good 78's- the music became alive again, and still more and more of these great old recordings are being remastered again. I wouldn't worry about the singing. The singers are still out there - and better than ever. And if you ever come to my place near Toronto - we'll do some singing - (and we'll play some new fiddle tunes too). I think the traditional part of old time is in good hands - but I'm not sure about old time music's evolution - now that's an interesting topic! Arnie Naiman |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Art Thieme Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:32 PM To use an out of date term, FOLKSONGS, more often than not were collected for their stories. The listeners were "held" by the intellectual content of those tales. If they happened to have a good tune to go along with a mesmerizing story, that was just that much the better. I rarely learned a song just for the melody---but that was just me. I've always been a word person. We have a great old-time band in these parts called The Volo Bogtrotters. Lynn "Chirps" Smith is a huge part of what that group is. Chirps has collected fiddle tunes all over Illinois---a place many people are surprised to find them. But rural is rural---and there you will most certainly find fiddlers and banjo pickers. Most of the Bogtrotters gigs are for dances where instrumental music holds sway. That works out perfectly and it dovetails nicely not unlike yin and yang or "69" ;-) Right 'Spaw ?? When there was a viable revival of interest in story songs, even the string bands sang songs that had to be heard, comprehended, really listened to and, possibly, even reacted to with affirmation or derision or nonchalance. One could not just tap your toes to it. (Like, "I give it a ten; it was easy to dance to.") ----Then again, instrumentalist collectors of musical artifacts are intellectually drawn into and turned on by the musical complexities of their found tunes with as much excitement as I ever could generate when I found 2 verses of "Robin Hood's Death" (Child ballad # 120) in the middle of Wisconsin. It was recited for me by 89 year old, Wes Asbury---a former police chief of Whitewater, Wisconsin in his little cabin/shack on the shores of the Rock River in the town of Fort Atkinson. So---as Pete and Ecclesiastes sang when telling us these things are all cyclical, "To everything there is a season..." YES, you are right. The semantic aspects of Old-Timey music, in some places, are in a rut.----But right now, Singer/Songwriters in all their navel-gazing glory, are having the time of their life. I do hope they appreciate it---'cause, hopefully, it won't last too long. ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Rolfyboy6 Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:01 AM The real old time musicians had mostly been to the old church sponsored singing schools. Wish those were still around, sure would help. I'd love to learn shape note harmony. Lots of the old timers didn't have the best voices around but could do alright and their harmony work on the old tunes was what made the vocals work. I wish that could be part of the old time scene now. Lots of the fiddle tunes have reference verses that nobody does now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Phil Cooper Date: 16 Dec 01 - 06:05 PM Art, Glad you mentioned Chirps. He is indeed a treasure trove of old tunes and a fine and vigorous player. Having spent a lot of time at his house when we were all playing in The More the Merrier for Christmas shows, I found that Chirps also had a huge interest in field recordings of the old ballad singers as well. He sings a great version of Froggy Went a courtin' and the Volos in concert did a great number of songs, besides the tunes. Margaret and I were over at this house once where he was playing Vivaldi string quartets, followed by Mississippi fiedl fiddlers, followed by Seamus Enis playing the Uillean pipes. I always contend, he liked the "real stuff" in folk whether it were intstrumental or vocal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Art Thieme Date: 16 Dec 01 - 06:44 PM Phil, You are correct and I'm sure that's true. Chirps loves it all. I was just pointing out that, these days, it's mostly instrumental dance music that's wanted for the dances they play more often than not. In concertizing times, festivals and rows of chairs with people sitting down to listen raptly like at a storytelling venue, word people had more opportunities on the so-called folk circuit to have their artifacts appreciated. Best to Margaret & Kate. All my e-mails to K. have been coming back. Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,sawyertammy@usa.net Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:58 PM I live and play old time music in Northwest North Carolina, just 45 minutes from Mount Airy.. Around here, if a tune has words, more than likely someone will sing them at least once through the tune. In fact, some jams will have really boisterous singers and it really adds alot to the tunes. Maybe it is more common to sing down here in the heart of oldtime than other areas of the country. What i like about it is you don't have to be a great singer to belt out the words to "Sally Ann" or some other good tune.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 18 Dec 01 - 02:28 PM Howdy. Back after a week end away from the MudCat. Looks like I really started something. And I'm pleased most of the posts seem to echo my sentiments. And there are a couple that mention something about fiddle tunes that could really get me started. So here goes.
Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,Fortunato back from college night with Ian Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:58 PM Sawyer Tommy, I did hear some folks sing the lyrics to some fiddle tunes at Mount Airy. I'm sorry if I failed to characterize the festival correctly. I've had limited experience as I said. However, when folks I HEARD did sing it was to a fiddle tune with words, not a song that fiddles played if you see what I mean. In other words they often came by to say to me that they enjoyed my singing of a Jimmie Rodgers song or a Delmore Brothers song and liked my guitar playing, but when they played my "old time" was not their "old time". Maybe I was just in the wrong group. If you will be at Mount Airy or Clifftop, then let me me know and perhaps I can find the place where the fiddles and banjos welcome a Carter Family tune. Regards, Chance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Mark Cohen Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:22 PM Well, here in the middle of the Pacific, I'd be very happy to be plunking my guitar in the middle of a pack of droning fiddles and banjos. I'd just learned about old-time music a year or two before leaving Seattle for points south and west, so I hadn't been doing it long enough to get bored, and I MISS it! But, as a singer, I certainly wished there were more opportunities for songs. I can squeal out a few lines of "Fortune" (the key of D makes me sound like my shorts are too tight), but I also wish the folks would take time out for "Winding Stream". Seems like it's the same everywhere, though. And I tend to agree with Art: I think much of this song/tune battle has to do with changes in style and taste...and maybe the position of the outer planets. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Coyote Breath Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:45 PM what a lovely thread. I almost never just play a song. After all they are SONGS. I have always felt just a bit out of it when goiong to parking lot pick fests and even at rendezvous where the music is mostly VERY old timey. Most people play. Gosh, I even sing WTBOI (Without The Benefit Of Instrument) lots of songs like Hansome Cabin Boy - Oh Death - Little Sadie - Lyke Wake Dirge - The Green Brier Shore - Song of Hard Times. More, too, but its late. I can't imagine a set with just instrumentals. We have a fine fiddler here who can't sing but wishes he could and a very nice string band who do almost nothing BUT sing (The Agusta Bottoms Consort - they were going to call themselves the Agusta Bottoms Pickers but...) They have put out my almost number one favorite CD, "Bottom Land". get it. Two dandy cuts "Its Time to Kill the Rooster" and "Coyote Life" They are: Paul Oviatt, Mike Bauermeister, Gloria Bauermeister and Rebecca Mayer and are found in Augusta, Missouri. Sorry, I digress. I've always loved the so-called folkmusic for its poetry, for its stories told in plain-tounge. That is hard to do with only an instrument. CB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 19 Dec 01 - 02:10 PM To reply to Alice's earlier post, I sing without accompaniment from time to time. Jack Munroe is a song I started singing unaccompanied because I couldn't find a way to accompany the song without getting in my own way. A Canadian Boat Song with lyrics by Thomas Moore is another song I do unaccompanied. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:03 PM Sorry here group....I'm enjoying your discussion, but I was searching for something else just now and tripped on a site that I suppose you all know about anyhow, but I thought I'd link it here anyway.......ya' never know. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Peter Kasin Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:54 PM Though I don't play or sing old-timey music, the NLCR's were an early inspiration to me for listening to and appreciating it, and for awhile in the 1970s I was seeking out any Gid Tanner/Uncle Dave Macon/etc. recordings I could get my hands on. Only in the last few years has my interest in old-timey music been re-ignited, when I attended a music camp where Bruce Molsky taught fiddle. His fiddling AND singing are nothing short of breathtaking, and inspired me to seek out field recordings of vocals on CD. If it is now in a rut, my experience suggests to me that it could take a great musician like Molsky to start people into a re-discovery, or a first-time discovery of this music, to introduce it to a new generation. There is a young fiddler here in California, Brittany Haas, who is a protege of Molsky and is a brilliant old-timey fiddler, in the Bruce Molsky mold. Maybe it's a new generation of instrumentalists and singers, inspired by master teachers and performers, who will get it out of any rut it might be in? -chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Mark Cohen Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:33 PM It was Bruce Molsky who first showed me how to play backup guitar for fiddle tunes, when I joined his band lab at the 1990 Festival of American Fiddle Tunes in Port Townsend, Washington. I discovered that as the guitarist, I was the drum and bass for the group, and it forced me to (1) keep a solid tempo, and (2) LISTEN!!! As a mediocre amateur-singer-songwriter-guitarist who always played solo, it was a real eye-and-ear-opener--and the first time I really understood what playing music WITH other people was all about. And I loved it! And still do. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 20 Dec 01 - 02:16 PM Yeah, thank goodness there are some musicians who are able to rise above the crowd and inspire others to excellence. I had much the same reaction as Mark when I took a fiddle class taught by Raef Sefanninni [sp? Sorry, Raef] at Davis & Elkins College, Elkins WV about eight or nine years ago. It changed my fiddling quite a bit. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Kaleea Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:01 AM I sing unaccompanied, whether in an Irish session, for a funeral (see other post for funeral music ideas!), or gospel & spirituals, or perhaps some Native American (Choctaw/Cherokee), not to mention mid-evil songs. One need not be in a rut when playing "old time" music as there are thousands of tunes & songs in the public domain. The more tunes & songs I learn, the more I find that I don't know. One might consider branching out into the realm outside of doo dah, doo dah, and set the barn on fire with some fancy fiddlin, even if there is no specific style of fiddlin attributed to Kansas. My fiddlin friends in OZ seem to set in with "taters" and end with the smoke risin from the strings & bow. Learn to read some music & get some books by Burl ives & others who spent many years researching tunes & songs of the early times of our country. In other words, get yourself out there and go to some festivals, get some new fangled CD's with tunes you never heard of and play along on them thar new tunes till you learn 'em! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Mark Cohen Date: 21 Dec 01 - 11:43 AM Certainly a good suggestion, Kaleea. I think, though, that Jim's concern at the outset of this thread was not that present-day old-time musicians (how's that for an oxymoron?) don't know enough tunes, but that they play only tunes, no songs. It's a question of style and attitude more than repertoire. You can certainly broaden the definition of "old-time music" and pick up thousands of new songs and tunes. But I believe Jim's point was that by focusing exclusively on fiddle tunes, the current fashion in playing leaves out much of what the "founding fathers and mothers" of the genre actually played. On general principle, though, I agree with you: there's a whole lot of great music out there to be learned! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Jim Krause Date: 21 Dec 01 - 02:35 PM Kaleea, I couldn't agree with you more, actually. And Mark summed up my thoughts and feelings quite well. I love old-time music. Would I be a fiddler in an old-time string band if I didn't? But I'm more than a fiddler. I enjoy a good song, and I like backing up singers, as much as having other musicians backing me up when it's my turn to sing one.
One of the reasons, I suspect, that singers are less than welcome at exclusively fiddle sessions, is that singers put the song where it is comfortable for their particular voices. And just as often, that means impossible [HA! Aint no such thing.] keys such as Bb, or perish the thought Eb. At the risk of offending fiddlers everywhere, that's just plain laziness. There is no excuse for refusing to learn to play in singer's keys. It ain't that hard. And it ain't that hard, 'cause the accompanist doesn't have to do all the fancy stuff he or she is capable of to back up a singer. Put simply, simple accompaniment is best.
Next time try it and see what I mean. Go to a session and when it's your turn, announce "OK, let's do The Nightengale in 2 flats. Kick 'er off there, Bob." And see what pained looks you get. Sheesh :-(
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Dec 01 - 02:56 PM Out here the Old Time Fiddlers are a vast majority of many public get togethers. And they don't sing a lick. So most of us tend to limit our participation with them - or make music off to the side. I've seen these old timers run good musicians off (literally) because they weren't doing the song exactly right. Funny bunch. So I'm like a lot of you in that I love to sing and don't care who hears me. Old time fiddlers are a necessary group in order to keep the strict tradition alive - but to dominate - no. And a rut is simply a grave with the ends kicked out. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,coyote breath Date: 21 Dec 01 - 03:29 PM I like singing in unison with a fiddle. I only know one fiddle thing (I am terrible on fiddle) I can do with any degree of reasonableness (is that a word?) and that is "Poor Drunkard". I love the way it sounds in unison with the fiddle. I can sing in D and sorta in G (but only after gargling with ice water) and certainly in A and with luck in E. Odd, though, I don't ever sing when I am playing the mandolin even though I have words to almost every tune I can manage on it. I wonder why? CB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Cappuccino Date: 21 Dec 01 - 03:43 PM Would you kindly forgive an interested question from a mere Englishman who likes old-time American music, but whose acquaintance with fiddle tunes is limited to occasionally playing bass in a barn-dance band? I recall reading some stories about the old fiddlers playing the early Opry and Louisiana Hayride and things, and I remember clearly the story about one fiddler who was disgusted after being pulled off after about half an hour... his words were 'I just won a four-day fiddlin' contest, and here's my medal to prove it'. I have * always * wanted to know - what the hell did those fiddlers do for four days? I love the reference to a A day and a D day (above), but did they keep the same tunes going for hours, or did they have a vast knowledge of different tunes, or were they brilliant improvisers who could think up variations on a tune for ages? Apologies if it's a silly question from an alien culture... but I've always wondered. - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Dec 01 - 04:11 PM Hey, Mr.Coyote Br., If you can play that one tune on the fiddle now, that's a tune more than you could play back in the '60s. Pretty good for 40 years. ;-) All the best, Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: GUEST,Les B. Date: 21 Dec 01 - 04:36 PM IanB - I think Midchuck's post, about eighth from the top, explains what we're seeing now days - the "circle jerk" with the same tune being played for twenty minutes. In terms of what an old time fiddler's contest back in the old days in the South would be like, I'm not sure. Currently the contests in my neck of the woods (the northwest) consist of two to three rounds of three tunes each round - a waltz, a hoedown, and a tune of choice (hornpipe, rag, jig, etc.) - and there is a time limit for each tune of around three to four minutes. Scores are posted after each round, with cut off limits marked, eliminating about half the contestants each round, until in the final round usually only the top ten scorers are left competing. This way you can get through 50 or 80 fiddlers in two to three days of contesting. As far as the "key of the day" thing, usually the fiddlers could shift keys easily, unless they're in some cross-tuning like AEAE, etc. It seems to be that they don't want to alienate the old-time banjo players who typically (around here) tune in open-tunings of either G or C, which allows them to capo into A or D - two of the more common keys for old time music. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Old-time music in a rut? From: Steve in Idaho Date: 21 Dec 01 - 04:59 PM IanB - Not a silly question at all. I played as an accompaniest to a fiddler at the Lewiston, Idaho contest many years ago. They played the same dang tune, the same way, for hours. I think we could have done the thing in our sleep. Old time fiddlers are usually out of tune and their timing is atrocious. Not all of them - but enough that it can be difficult to play with them. I know a couple of the old timers who are a delight to play with. They take their turn, let the singers sing, and are willing to allow others to be a significant part of the experience. But they are the exception and not the rule. One of the old timers we play with is in his 80s and is a judge at the National level. He quits and leaves when the singers show up. I personally can't tell the difference on most of his tunes. He saws away and ignores the rest of us. There are a couple of tunes that they are forbidden to play (Orange Blossom Special is one) because they'll sit up on stage for a half hour doing the same thing over and over again. The fiddler you are refering to most likely was doing one of those tunes and people got bored stiff with him. The "I won the - insert name of contest - and am special" is pretty common for some of these old guys. What is very good about their gatherings is they attract a host of really good musicians and singers who sift off to the side and play music for days on end without much of a repeating of tunes. The old time guys don't like this but haven't any way to stop it. Like I said earlier - I've seen them come into a room and literally tell people to leave. Hope this answers your question IanB - For four days they play the same tune the same way and then get judged by someone who plays it the same way to see who is the most correct in the replication. You want to hear good fiddling? Listen to Sorcha. Or let me know and I'll make you a copy of a CD I have of an old fiddler who is the best I ever heard. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Old-time music in a rut? From: dick greenhaus Date: 22 Dec 01 - 03:42 PM These mastubatory sessions or jsms or whatever you may call them serve a couple of real and valuable functions: they give instrumentalists a chance to practice; they help instrumentalists learn new (to them) tunes, and they're fun to participate in. One caution, though: they shouldn't be listened to, unless you're fond of hearing a dozen or so soloists trying to play in unison (albeit not always in tune.) It's a crying shame that ensemble playing for non-performance and non rehearsal purposes has virtually vanished. The problem lies, not with old-time music, but "old-time" musicians. |
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Subject: RE: Old-time music in a rut? From: Cappuccino Date: 22 Dec 01 - 10:28 PM Thank you, gentlemen - as always, the answers were better than the question deserved! - Ian B |
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Subject: RE: Old-time music in a rut? From: Caleb Date: 23 Dec 01 - 01:00 AM It's true; I really prefer when our string band meets to 'rehearse' and we actually play close to 50% songs and 50% tunes, but it rarely happens. We play a wide variety of songs from Depression NLCR stuff, to rip-offs of Double Decker, Highwoods, Critton Hollow, HotMud, Charlie Poole, Doc Watson, Tommy Jarrell, etc., to blues stuff, western praire stuff, and gospel stuff and country corn that we old-timey-fied. Two fiddles, guitar, banjo, mando- banjo and a host of inserts like uke, harp, and regular mandolin. But there are so many tunes in so many keys (3?)that a steady concentration on songcraft and singing arrangements only happens about once a fortnight, and sometimes it only happens on account of the gig, and then we break through some new vocal wall, end up blinking at each other, then just jump to the next G tune, which is really all there is.... But songs in the gig respect are absolutely necessary if you want to leave the hall alive, unless the audience leaves first. "We play until ya leave." I think that there is more and more new stuff (Julie Miller, Jones and Leva, others) that ought to be worked on in a string band setting. Keep singing some songs, Angeline the Baker to love songs like Elkhorn Ridge and Wild Bill Jones, and that will forgo the rut. As noted way back in the start of this thread, the old bands squawked away about chicken, women, mules and whether or not the river was whisky, and that is a part of the tradition that shouldn't be lost, never mind the good stuff about mills, mines, and politics....."Sal Went Down to the Cider Mill, she drank and she drank till she got her fill"...it's a beautiful thing; 'nough said. If you play old-time and you're in a rut, make an effort to crank out a smokin' Milwaukee Blues or Anchored in Love, and if it works, you still got it. Caleb |
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