Origins: Heather Down the Moor (from June Tabor)

Subject: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From:
Date: 03 Jan 97 - 03:03 PM

Hey!

WHat a wonderful site!!!!!

I'm looking for the lyrics for June Taobr's version of Bonny Heather Down the Moor, Doon the Moor etc....

Subject: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From:
Date: 03 Jan 97 - 04:00 PM

Hey!

WHat a wonderful site!!!!!

I'm looking for the lyrics for June Taobr's version of Bonny Heather Down the Moor, Doon the Moor etc....

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Susan of DT
Date: 03 Jan 97 - 05:30 PM

It's in the digital tradition (the database attached to this site). I put in heather moor and came up with 5 songs, which I think includes what you are looking for

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From:
Date: 06 Jan 97 - 05:24 PM

Thanks Susan,

That was the first thing I did actually...but alas, it's an old song and there are many versions. I'm looking for the lyrics to the version on A Cut Above, A wonderful June Tabor Record.

Thanks,

L

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Jacky of Kent
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:16 AM

Did anyone ever find these lyrics? I'd really like to learn this version, but the songs i've found have different words to those used by June Tabor.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:02 AM

I'm sure we've had this discussion before . .

Malcolm? Malcom?

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:06 AM

there is another set of lyrics in the forum - but I don't know if it is closer to Tabor's or not.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GeorgeH
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:15 AM

Ok, so a forum search suggest we may not have had this conversation before . . well, not successfully.

The three versions in the database seem to be:

Version 1

Version 2

Version 3

None of which is actually the version June sings (I'd say, approximately, that the first is closest). Nor have past discussions turned up June's words. I'll try transcribing them, but I'm not sure how soon!

Sorry!

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:26 AM

Yes I think it's closest to version 1, too.

I think she sings
Down the moor and among the heather
Over the moor and through the heather

as part of the chorus (followed by the last two lines of the preious verse and down the moor).

She also at one point sings about 'a plaid wrapped neatly round her waist' - although it always sounded to me like 'bladderwrack neatly round her waist'. Why she wanted this seaweed with herall time we can only guess, unless it was a portable weather forecasting system!

Les

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Jacky of Kent
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:05 PM

Interesting - can you use seaweed to forecast then? I wonder if its more acurate than the idiots on TV. I've tried to get the words from the Cd, but her accent is strong and the music so fast, I end up with some pretty weird lyrics!

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:21 PM

if the seaweed is wet, it's raining. If the seaweed is moving, it's windy...

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:31 PM

From a Scouting resources site

A piece of kelp or seaweed hung up will become damp previous to rain - Any truth probably comes from salt remaining on the surface of the weed. Salt is hygroscopic, which means it will absorb moisture when the air is humid. This may mean the chance of rain is slightly higher. Sailors noted that ropes tend to be harder to release ahead of rain (they shrank). Musical stringed instruments sound as tension increased due to shrinking. Rush matting was found to shrink in dry and expand in hot weather.

So you see, you don't need any seaweed - you can do exactly the same thing with a banjo. There, got it back to music!

Les

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 01:54 PM

The question came up in  Lyr Req: June Tabor lyric  nearly a year ago, and Jeri gave a link to a transcription of the text Archie Fisher recorded, and which he learnt from Belle Stewart:  Queen Amangst the Heather

At the time, I suggested that this was probably the best bet for an approximation of the words June Tabor used, as she is also supposed to have recorded Belle Stewart's set of the song; however, I haven't heard June's recording in many years, and George and Les's comments suggest that either my information was wrong (I can no longer remember where I came by it), or that June collated more than one text; certainly she seems not to have used Belle's title for the song, and Belle had no chorus.  Either way, I'm afraid I can't help with this one!

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:26 AM

Hey! Malcolm defeated . . the guy's human after all . .

I did start transcribing it last night . . there'e one verse which I haven't yet made out the words to (she does sing it at a cracking pace . . )

Monday?

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Jacky of Kent
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:27 AM

You are a star - forever in your debt.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GeorgeH
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:16 PM

Lemme get there first . .

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: nutty
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM

This broadside in the Bodleian Library is very close to the version that June sings:- CLICK HERE

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:27 PM

Now here's an odd thing.  I was looking for something else just now, and checked  LYRA CELTICA  (1896, revised ed. 1924).  What should I run into but this:

O'er the Muir amang the Heather  [Attributed to] Jean Glover (1758-1800), with this comment:

 The author of "O'er the Muir amang the Heather" was the daughter of a Highland weaver settled in Kilmarnock.  She married a strolling actor, and her fugitive songs became familiar throughout the West of Scotland.  "O'er the Muir amang the Heather" has become a classic.

Have a look and see what you think.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: nutty
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 03:21 AM

It is highly possible that the information is correct Malcolm.

The earliest broadside I have been able to find is HARDING B11(2771) 1797 - 1834 which was Printed by Walker of Durham(North of England)
As we know , the oral tradition does produce different versions of songs
PS - Can the tune be traced at all?

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 09:18 AM

It appears that the attribution to Jean Glover (for which Burns was responsible) is nowadays considered doubtful.  Certainly, the tune seems first to have been published, as O'er the Moor amang the Heather, in 1758, the year she was born, and appeared in a MS of 1740.  This information from Bruce Olson; on his website he further notes:

"O'er the Moor amang the Heather ['In the Moor among the Heather' in P. Thompson's Twenty Four Country Dances for the Year 1758, p. 11, and with Bremner's title in another such by R. Bride for 1769, p. 51.  These have same tunes but different dance figures.]; RBR 77: [?]; NSR 9: Aldavaligh or O're the moor among the Heather; AMR 24"

A little more poking around in the Forum resulted in the following:

Skippin' Barfit through the Heather  Text and tune from Alison McMorland, who learned it from Jessie Murray of Buckie.  I posted this one myself, but had forgotten about it.

Queen Amangst the Heather  Suzanne (SKW) quotes some comments made by Hamish Henderson, who traces the song back to Glasgow Peggie (Child #228), the story of which is vaguely similar.  Henderson points to similarities in the tunes that carry the two songs.

Heather on the Moor...anyone?  Bruce Olson quotes the text from the Scots Musical Museum (1792), with comments on the antecedents of song and tune.

heather on the moor  Text as noted by Burns, with info from Bruce.

For the sake of completeness, I'll repeat links to the DT files that George has already pointed to, using relative URLs for times when the main server is down:

DOON THE MOOR (2)  From Colm O Lochlainn's More Irish Street Songs; with tune.

DOON THE MOOR  No source named or tune given.

HEATHER ON THE MOOR  From Dan Milner's Bonny Bunch of Roses.  No traditional source named, though two tunes are given, unfortunately unidentified.

A set of O'er the Muir Amang the Heather/ Aldivalloch, transcribed from the Skye Collection by Wendy Galovich, can be found at  JC's Tunefinder.  It is identical to that given in Niel Gow's Repository of the Dance Music of Scotland, book I, (c. 1799) and probably derives from it.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 09:22 AM

Eddie Butcher version?

Subject: Lyr Add: HEATHER DOWN THE MOOR (from June Tabor)
From: GeorgeH
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:15 AM

Her's what June sings. I believe she attributes her version to Eddie Butcher (but didn't have time to check the tape of her singing it where I think she makes that attribution.

I've tried to keep the lines to the phrasing June appears (to me!) to use, rather than regularising them. And I've left the chorus/refrain there in full ('cause I couldn't think of a neater alternative).

HEATHER DOWN THE MOOR
(from June Tabor)

One morn in May
When fields were gay
Serene and pleasant was the weather
I spied a lass
And a very bonnie lass
She was sweeping the dew from among the heather.

Down the moor
And among the heather
O'er the moor
And through the heather
And a very bonnie lass
She was sweeping the dew from among the heather.
Down the moor


Bare footed was she,
She was comely dressed
And her hat bore neither hat nor feather.
She's a plaid wrapped neatly round her waist
As she tripped through the blooming heather

Down the moor
And among the heather
O'er the moor
And through the heather
She's a plaid wrapped neatly round her waist
As she tripped through the blooming heather
Down the moor


I stepped up to this fair young maid,
Tell me your name,
Come tell me hither.
She answered me "Down by the bonnie burn side"
"And I'm herding of my ewes together."

Down the moor
And among the heather
O'er the moor
And through the heather
She answered me "Down by the bonnie burn side"
"And I'm herding of my ewes together."
Down the moor


I courted her that live-long day,
My heart as light as any feather,
Until the beams of the red-setting sun
Come a-shining down amongst the heather.

Down the moor
And among the heather
O'er the moor
And through the heather
Until the beams of the red-setting sun
Come a-shining down amongst the heather.
Down the moor


She said "Young man, I must away,"
"My ewes are straying from each other,"
"But I'm as loath for to part with you"
"As the bonnie wee lambs to part their mother."

Down the moor
And among the heather
O'er the moor
And through the heather
"But I'm as loath for to part with you"
"As the bonnie wee lambs to part their mother."
Down the moor


So up she got
And away she went
And her name and place I cannot gather
But if I were a king I would make her a queen
The bonnie lass I met in amongst the heather

Down the moor
And among the heather
O'er the moor
And through the heather
But if I were a king I would make her a queen
The bonnie lass I met in amongst the heather
Down the moor


HTH!
As I said, she sings this at a cracking pace. The song, WITH an "instrumental verse", totals less than 3 minutes.

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GeorgeH
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:18 AM

Oops, that first chorus should end:

I spied a lass, and a very bonnie lass She was sweeping the dew from among the heather. Down the moor

And sorry about the lapse into bold . .

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

George is right, Ms Tabor sings this very fast. I just tried to sing along with these lyrics, it lasts 2 minutes 47 seconds.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Bearheart
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

June Tabor did record Belle's version, Queen Amang the Heather, on one of her first two albums, many years ago. It is the version of this song that I've been singing myself for about as many years. Archie did record it also. In the early-mid '80's Belle sang it at Scottish Week at Augusta Heritage Arts Workshops (alas, Scootish Week no longwer exists). Belle herself recorded it though I have no info on that as I don't own the album, but it was one of her best songs, in my humble opinion.

Since that time I've heard at least two other versions, one Paul Brady recorded I think in the '80's. Again, don't own the album so I can't give details.

What I like about the version June recorded first is its lyrical, poetic quality. One of those gems that is actually best without accompaniment, and which encourages the singer to ornament in the old style. Many of the more up-tempo ones seem best with instrumental arrangement. This version is really a singer's song... Also if you like the old songs June did a great job of doing some of the old ballads on those two early albums. They are really worth looking for. She also did great covers of two of Eric Bogle's best on those early albums, The Band Played Waltzing Matilda and The Green Fields of France.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 08:07 PM

Thankyou; that explains the confusion.  She recorded both Belle Stewart's Queen Among the Heather (on Airs and Graces, Topic TSCD298) and, a little later, Eddie Butcher's Heather Down on the Moor (on A Cut Above, Topic TSCD410).

I have Belle's recording, and it is as you say.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: GeorgeH
Date: 17 Sep 01 - 12:49 PM

The first two June Tabor albums (Airs and Graces and Ashes and Diamonds are still "in print" on the Topic label in the UK. About 12 months ago they were available as a "bargain box set" with A Cut above.

Also, apropos nothing, I note June has now broken with her tradition of her album titles always starting with "A".

G.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: ChS
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 01:27 PM

Further to a contribution by Malcolm Douglas on 14 July 2001 (09.18) to the thread "Tabor - Heather Down the Moor", stating that:
"Dan Miller's 'Bonny Bunch of Roses' gives two tunes titled 'Heather on the Moor', which are however unidentified",
I noticed incidentally that a Jacobite broadside ballad titled "Brigadier M'Intosh's Farewell to the Highlands", kept in the National Library of Scotland Broadside Collection and, judging by the topic, the 1715 Uprising, probably published in 1715-1716, has a characteristic burden that reminds of "Heather on the Moor", whilst the rest of the text scans one of the tunes pretty well:

Lyrics of the song "Heather on the Moor" :

Oh as roved out on a bright May morning
Calm and clear was the weather
I chanced to roam some miles from home
Among the beautiful blooming heather.
And it's heather on the moor.

Lyrics of "Brigadier McKintosh":

M'INTOSH is a Soldier brave,.
And of his Friends he took his Leave,.
Unto Northumberland he drew,.
And march'd along with a jovial Crew..
With a fa la la ra da ra da.

The broadside bears the mention "to an excellent new tune". If the tune referred to is one of the two "Heather on the Moor" tunes, it gives a hint at how old the song is.

Particulars (sequenced tune, sheet music, etc.) may be found on my site, at:
http://chrsouchon.free.fr/mcintosh.htm

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:02 PM

The version June does looks very similar to Peter Bellamy's. Which is excellent.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 02:25 PM

Jon Boden who also sings this set cites Peter Bellamy as his source, who in turn said he got it from Eddie Butcher: ' . . . an Irish version of a song I'm sure they stole from Scotland' said PB. I've never heard anyone take it at such a lick as June Tabor though. Boden takes a whopping 5'31" to get through it.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 04:26 PM

[OT] John Boden's (and indeed Bellowhead's) repertoire would be considerably impoverished if not for the back catalogue of PB. [/OT]

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Compton
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 07:28 PM

The Martin Carthy/Brass Monkey vewrsion isn't far off either!

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 02:41 AM

ChS: You state, and repeat on your site, that I said "The book names no traditional sources, though two tunes are given." I said no such thing. My remark was, precisely, "No traditional source named, though two tunes are given, unfortunately unidentified". Since I was describing the Digital Tradition file, it should have been clear that my comment referred to the DT, not to Dan Milner's book, which I have not seen. My guess would be that he included only one tune, and that properly sourced. It is the DT compilers who tend to omit source information and link several tunes to a file without saying which is the one that belongs to the text concerned or (sometimes) where any of them came from.

I would be obliged if you would take note of this and remove the comment on your website. It misrepresents Dan Milner; and, for that matter, me. I can see how you may have misunderstood; but you should never paraphrase instead of quoting accurately and in context. Further, the statement on your website, unqualified as it is, implies that you yourself have seen the book. Have you?

I doubt if there is any connection at all between 'Brigadier M'Intosh' and 'Heather on the Moor'. You seem to have jumped to an anachronistic conclusion, comparing an 18th century text with a 20th century one and then guessing that the 20th century tune may have some connection on vague metrical correspondences. You need instead to compare roughly contemporary texts and tunes if you are to get anywhere.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: ChS
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 07:19 PM

Malcolm: Thank you for your exhaustive answer. I do appreciate your straightforwardness.
1° I admit that I misunderstood your comment bearing on the Digital Tradition file and not on the book "Bonny Bunch of Roses". I certainly will remove the sentence - not purposely- misrepresenting Dan Miller.
2° I find, however, perfectly legitimate and in conformity with tradition, in order to illustrate old Jacobite songs for which the tune is not known, to put them in connection with tunes matching them. For instance Anne Lorne Gillies sings Lady Nairne's "Attainted Scottish Nobles" to the tune of "Dainty Davie" on her CD "White Rose o'June" and there are many other instances. I agree with you that this practice should insult neither metrics nor chronology.
My point when resuming this thread was precisely to check if the tune I found on the DT site could chronologically qualify for the connection I made. Since neither of us have read Dan Miller's book where this information is certainly provided, the question remains, so far, unanswered.
But, there is certainly far more than "a vague metrical correspondence" between the text of "Brigadier McKintosh" and the tune considered. The body of the text scans the melody and the concluding 2 note pattern matches the burden line of the ballad.
It matches the modern lyrics as well, but since it could be misunderstood, I shall remove them.
3° To the best of my (search engine's) knowledge I did not quote your name on the McKintosh page but on 2 other pages, since you already helped me to clarify problems. Please would you care to have a look at them and tell me if you want me to modify or remove these mentions?
http://chrsouchon.free.fr/morungea.htm
http://chrsouchon.free.fr/queenswe.htm

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:49 AM

The song is on the LP ' I Once Was A Daysman ' by Eddie Butcher on the Free Reed label, the sleeve notes say Robert Burns attributed the song to ' a Kilmarnock girl called Jean Glover, who was not a harlot but a thief '

eric

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:56 AM

Dan Milner's Songs of England, Ireland & Scotland, A Bonnie Bunch of Roses (Oak Publications, 1983), page 181, has the following:

Heather on the Moor

Here's a bouncy song Robin Morton collected from Hugh Lees of Enniskillen, Co. Fermanagh. Paul Brady was always being asked to sing this one when he lived in New York.

Source: R. Morton, Folksongs Sung in Ulster.
Recording: Paul Brady, The Gathering, Green Hays 705.

----

(text as linked in the DT above)

The first DT tune (HTHRMOOR) is the one that is given in the book.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: ChS
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:07 AM

Unlike for the tune in Dan Milner's book there is no doubt about a connection between the song Eric mentions and Jacobitism.
Simon Fraser's Collection includes a tune (#225) titled "The Rising of the Year 1715" for which Fraser states:
"The chorus of this air and its name are well known to allude to the rising of the year 1715...this little ancient air embraces the subject of two favourite Scots tunes, which seem to have been built upon it, viz. 'O'er the Muir among the Heather' and 'Peggy now the King 's come'... "

'O'er the Muir...' is the song you mention (Scots Musical Museum #328) while 'Peggy...' is SMM#239 for which a Jacobite version also exists ("...An somebodie were come again, then somebodie maun cross the main...")

The (capital) information provided by Becky hints at an old (ultimately?) Irish song and not a modern one as supposed as yet in the discussion. It makes the hypothesis that this tune -or a variation of it- could be the same as in "Mackintosh" at least plausible.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:13 AM

Thanks, Becky, for the reference. Morton rather thought that the song was based (textually) on 'The Laird o'Drum', but I'm not convinced of that. They share a basic theme (and so do a lot of other songs) but are really quite different.

Thanks, too, to ChS for correcting his web page.

The second midi (HTHRMOR2.MID) in the DT file is also linked to from DOON THE MOOR (2), the text of which is copied from Colm O Lochlainn's Irish Street Ballads (not Songs as stated in the DT): the implication would be that that is where the tune came from (O Lochlainn credits his source, but the DT omits this information) but when converted to staff notation the DT midi bears little resemblance to the printed tune, being in a different time signature, a different key, and with entirely different note values.

Where did it come from, I wonder? I suppose I shall have to try to find out, but there won't be time for that any day soon.

I'll address ChS' other questions at a later date. Meanwhile, if you want an appropriate tune for 'Brigadier M'Intosh' you need to be looking at 18th century melodies.

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:31 AM

I see that you came to much the same conclusion while I was typing the above. Go for 18th century tunes (but don't pay any heed to the word 'ancient' in old collections of songs or tunes; many such were actually composed for the London theatres within the lifetimes of the people who supposed them old) and don't limit yourself to 'O'er the Moor'. The metre isn't that uncommon, and you don't as yet have any evidence for a connection.

Why 'ultimately Irish', incidentally?

Subject: RE: Tabor - Heather Down the Moor
From: ChS
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:34 AM

"Ultimately?" -with a question mark- suggested that Hugh Lees of Enniskillen in Ulster, so far the remotest source identified, was the singer but not necessarily the composer of the song whose origin would then remain obscur. Could it not have crossed the Irish Sea at some earlier stage? Could it not belong to the 18th century tunes that should exclusively be taken into account?

Subject: RE: Origins: Heather Down the Moor (from June Tabor)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 May 22 - 06:27 PM

Joe - check this