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Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza

DigiTrad:
A GRAZING MACE
AMAZING GRACE
AMAZING GRASS
AMAZING PRESS
MIORBHAIL GRA\IS (AMAZING GRACE)


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Haruo 14 Dec 01 - 08:46 PM
GUEST 14 Dec 01 - 09:31 PM
toadfrog 14 Dec 01 - 10:06 PM
Sorcha 14 Dec 01 - 10:59 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 15 Dec 01 - 12:50 AM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Dec 01 - 06:50 AM
nutty 15 Dec 01 - 12:21 PM
Uncle_DaveO 15 Dec 01 - 01:09 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 15 Dec 01 - 01:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 01 - 02:48 PM
wysiwyg 15 Dec 01 - 03:07 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 15 Dec 01 - 05:33 PM
Jeri 15 Dec 01 - 05:55 PM
Mary in Kentucky 15 Dec 01 - 06:13 PM
Mary in Kentucky 15 Dec 01 - 07:15 PM
Haruo 15 Dec 01 - 07:43 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 15 Dec 01 - 08:01 PM
masato sakurai 15 Dec 01 - 08:14 PM
Mary in Kentucky 15 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM
masato sakurai 15 Dec 01 - 09:57 PM
wysiwyg 15 Dec 01 - 10:11 PM
masato sakurai 16 Dec 01 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Pedant 16 Dec 01 - 02:22 PM
John Hardly 16 Dec 01 - 03:13 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 16 Dec 01 - 07:33 PM
John Hardly 16 Dec 01 - 07:53 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 16 Dec 01 - 08:09 PM
masato sakurai 17 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM
Burke 17 Dec 01 - 12:01 PM
Burke 17 Dec 01 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,prudentius 17 Dec 01 - 02:22 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 17 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM
Haruo 17 Dec 01 - 11:10 PM
Haruo 17 Dec 01 - 11:17 PM
Barbara Shaw 18 Dec 01 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Prudentius 18 Dec 01 - 01:34 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 18 Dec 01 - 09:47 PM
Haruo 19 Dec 01 - 09:10 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 21 Dec 01 - 03:45 PM
Barbara Shaw 21 Dec 01 - 04:07 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 21 Dec 01 - 07:18 PM
Haruo 24 Dec 01 - 01:19 AM
Haruo 06 Feb 02 - 02:59 AM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 06 Feb 02 - 03:34 PM
Desdemona 06 Feb 02 - 03:39 PM
voyager 06 Feb 02 - 04:48 PM
Burke 06 Feb 02 - 05:35 PM
Haruo 06 Feb 02 - 11:14 PM
Haruo 06 Feb 02 - 11:23 PM
kytrad (Jean Ritchie) 07 Feb 02 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Don B. 18 Apr 11 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Samuel J. Hardman 21 Jul 18 - 04:15 PM
Pete from seven stars link 23 Jul 18 - 12:41 PM
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Subject: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 08:46 PM

I saw Bill Moyers' Amazing Grace show last Sunday on my local Public Television station, and he and Jessie Norman were discussing some stanza I'd never heard of before (not one of the original John Newton stanzas, but one Bill and Jessie both knew) that contained imagery of "disrobing". I did a search and came up with one page that has the verse:
    

11. We lay our garments by
Upon our beds to rest
'Though death may soon disrobe us all
Of what we now possess.

But unfortunately it is (glaringly) two syllables shy of Common Metre in the incipit. Anybody know what the missing syllables are supposed to be? "We lay our something garments by", or "We sometime lay our garments by" or conceivably even "We lay our garments by upon / Our some such beds to rest"... ??

Liland
Liland, you still need to use line breaks - <br> - for the pre-formatted text. I added them. --JoeClone


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 09:31 PM

Query:

Why do I have to scroll to read this message?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: toadfrog
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:06 PM

That seems to be how the verse goes: "We lay our garments by." There are two websites out there, this one, unaccountably shared by Amazing Grace and Spider Man, and also this site, which is dedicated to the Dallas Scottish Country Dancers. People commonly also import all the verses from "Must Jesus Bear the Cross Alone," into Amazing Grace, just to make it longer.

I think if your really want to sing that verse, it would work just to insert rests for the first two syllables.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 10:59 PM

or "lilt" a couple of syllables......a la sean nos style. As in "by--uh-uh---eye".........


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:50 AM

I think you could make it

We lay our garments by to fall

That would give the rhyme to the word all


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:50 AM

Just give lay five syllables.  Easy!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: nutty
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 12:21 PM

"Lay our garment by" ..... means to put them to one side. To "put things by" is still commonly used in the North of England

An alternative to Malcolm's suggestion, for the verse, would be to treat the first two notes of the bar as rests.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 01:09 PM

How about

We lay our earthly garments by ???

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 01:23 PM

Since the verse is an add-on, not by Newton, why not get catspaw to replace it with something really interesting?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 02:48 PM

Easy enoug to fit the words to the tune, by stretching out one or more of the words. Only trouble would be deciding where to put in the stretch, and different people would put it in different places.

"We lay our earthly garments by" avoids that problem, and sounds fitting - the idea being that getting undressed for bed should be a reminder of the inevitability of death.

Pleasant dreams.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:07 PM

That verse is from EVENING SHADE, see Southern Harmony.

Easy fix:

"And now we lay our garments by,"

or "As now" or "And when" or "And as"

or... how I'd do it:

As we do lay our garments by,
Upon our beds to rest,
So death may soon disrobe us all
Of what we now possess.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM

Or, if you match the syllables of the first line of the "garment" verse to a first line of another verse.
  Amazing Grace, how sweet the   sound
-We-ee lay our gar- ments by

Susan, where does Evening Shade have the syllables falling?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:33 PM

Susan, you're right. The verse is from a different song, in Mom's church (Old Regular Baptist) it's known as, "The Day is Past and Gone." The first two verses:

The day is past and gone,
The evening shades appear;
O may we all remember well
The hour of death is near.

We lay our garments by,
Upon our beds to rest-
So time will soon disrobe us all
Of what we now possess.

Wish you could hear the melody- it's a gorgeous old swoopy, decorated, minor-modal one.

I did write to Bill Moyers, with this information, but apparently no one really cared about the source of the verse, or, it was just too late by then to make any corrections.

But, as someone else said, verses are always travelling, and I suppose there's no protection (or law) against it happening in sacred music, as well as all other! Jean


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 05:55 PM

OK, never mind my question. I re-read what Susan posted, and my brain inexplicably worked this time.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 06:13 PM

Ha! Jean, I have sheet music to that one in a book, "Something to Sing About, the Personal Choices of America's Folksingers" and it is listed as a favorite of JEAN RITCHIE'S! I'll post a midi shortly...you're right, it's gorgeous. (and I have four verses listed...you can check them too.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:15 PM

Here's a midi and four verses to "The Day is Past and Gone." If it's correct, I'll submit it to the DT.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 07:43 PM

Mary, Not having speakers on this here public library computer I use, the midi unfortunately comes out as an error message saying the plugin did not initialize properly. But I appreciate the verses. Could you email me the midi as an attachment? I really would like to hear it.

Thanks to all.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:01 PM

Thank you, Mary! That midi is a very good imitation of the voice decorating the tune; I hope it's not too confusing to those trying to fit the words in. Of course those are just MY decorations- when the hymns are sung, everyone does his decorations somewhat in his/her own way, as they're felt at the moment, but it works... the sound rises and falls more or less together, with little notes flying out here and there, much as spray and droplets fly out of a breaking wave, and it all gets where it's going in the end. Beautiful. Jean


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: masato sakurai
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:14 PM

"The Day Is Past and Gone" is in the DT (CLICK HERE. The original (tune mane: EVENING SHADE) was written by John Leland and Stephen Jenks (American Hymns Old and New, Columbia UP, vol. 1, p. 164; vol. 2, pp. 42-43). A favorite number among black gospel singers, too (in Songs of Zion, no. 13, where it is "traditional").
~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM

Thanks Masato, I didn't see that...and 5 verses! Since it doesn't have a tune, I'll see what Joe thinks. Like Jean said, if we put her decorations, we might have to indicate words or sylables with dashes.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: masato sakurai
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 09:57 PM

"The Day Is Past And Gone" (EVENING SHADE) is in the Southern Harmony (CLICK HERE, with music and MIDI). The Sacred Harp version has two stanzas only, but the second one is the "disrobe" stanza. Also in George Pullen Jackson, Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America (1937; Dover, 1964, no. 55; 3 stanzas, tune: VESPER). Recorded on Songs of the Old Regular Baptists (Smithsonian Folkways SF CD 40106; tune: IDUMEA); and on His Majestie's Clerkes (dir: Paul Hillier), Goostly Psalms: Ango-American Psalmody 1550-1800 (harmonia mundi HMU 907128; tune: EVENING HYMN by Elisha West; with sound clip).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 10:11 PM

Go Masato!

I THINK it is on the Anne Hills-Cindy Mangsen CED (Mine's gone!!!!) NEVER GROW OLD. A capella, lovely, haunting. With echoes in the chorus. Not sure how they titled it.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:38 AM

It's titled "Evening Shade" on Anne Hills & Cindy Mangsen's Never Grow Old (Flying Fish, FF-70638). CLICK HERE.
~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 02:22 PM

Everyone seems to agree that it's not a verse from Amazing Grace so why put it in? You could always learn one of the songs which it belongs to if you really wish to sing it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:13 PM

All this talk about verses to "Amazing Grace" reminds me of the most remarkable "version" I have ever heard.

A few years back a friend of mine died. He lived next door to me in an older section of our small town and though we were quite friendly (dinners together and lots of gab over the garden fence), I was never really aware of the church he attended.

He died during a particularly hot stretch of Indiana summer...you could break a sweat just thinking too hard. My wife and I made our way to the nearby, even smaller town and the church he atended. It was here they held the service.

The older building had ceiling fans making their slow whiring sound and in the racks on the backs of the pews were no hymnals...just those hand-held fans, you know the ones? cardboard with the old print of praying hands on the back and the Lord's Prayer on the front.

I've been in lots of churches and wasn't aware of anything particularly remarkable about this one. My other neighbor, Lester, though was not a church goer and just being in a church was enough to make him more than a little nervous, his eyes darting about the place trying to take it in.

Well, after we'd been there for a good long while, and all who were coming were finally seated, there suddenly arose a humming sound. The sound was very like a hive of angry bees. Lester was really sweating now. We were all looking around, like as if to locate the hive, until we realized it was coming from the front of the church where the brethren all sat on one side of the casket bearing my friend.

...seems they were tuning up.

after some time of this drone, one of the brethren fired off, in a monotone equal to that of the drone, the lyric that all were to sing. The sisters in their section of the church, and the rest of the brothers had books without music---only the lyric. The melody was only vaguely "Amazing Grace" though the first few verses were definitely that song. The other 12-13 verses I had never heard before.

This was my first experience at a "Regular Baptist" church with roots directly back to Appalachia. Most of Northern Indiana has little connection with that history. As a cultural experience I was absolutely drinking it in---loving the chance to witness this.

As a believer myself, I have never viewed church or denominations the same way since. It made me more aware than anything ever had in my life, that when your God is invisible, a church body collectively constructs, through the use of the arts (and music in particular) the palpable sensation of the God they intend to worship. We create these little worlds that make us feel closer to a God that we can't see.

I can't remember a time when I have been more "transported" to a different reality.

...I don't think Lester saw it that way.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:33 PM

John Hardly, you have just described what I've been calling, "Mom's church"... she went (and took me when I'd go) to the Little Zion Church at Jeff, Kentucky, a two-mile walk down the railroad tracks from home. They used a book (giving only lyrics and meter, and held only in the song leader's hands) called, The Sweet Songster. The song leader decided upon the song, say, Amazing Grace, picked a tune to fit the meter (C.M.) and sang out the first line, then "lined out" the second line and everyone, now aware of the tune chosen, would join in, and so on to the end of the song. The tune usually chosen for "Amazing Grace," in the Little Zion was quite different from the usual one.

The Sweet Songster gives six verses:

1) Amazing grace, how sweet...
2) Twas grace that taught my heart to fear
3) Through many dangers, toils and snares
4) The Lord has promised good to me
5) Yes! when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the vail
A life of joy and peace. (then my favorite verse):
6) This earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who sent me here below
Will be forever mine.
(this vs. not in the book but he lined it out anyway):
7) When we've been there ten thousand years


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: John Hardly
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:53 PM

kytrad,

That's exactly how it was....and it was thrilling! though I suspect that as a youngster your veiw of it may have been somewhat less thrilled :>)

By the way, I thought of you yesterday as Robin and Linda Williams did a spine tingling version of one of your songs-----wish I'd had my tape recorder going!!!

You are SUCH a treasure!

John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 08:09 PM

While I have the books out, may as well add a comment upon "The Day is Past and Gone." Masato, The Sweet Songster was submitted for copyright and first printed in 1854, by E.W. Billups, and the name he gives, to the right of the title, is Dupuy. No mention of Leland nor Jenks. And the Anglo American Psalmody source you gave for "Evening Shade," (with a very different melody) makes the song even older- and gives the composer as Elisha West. Could it be that all these men have been merely discoverers and arrangers of a song actually written by Anonnymous? Jean


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM

Jean,

My "research" has been very limited, but this commentary may be of some help:

The Day Is Past and Gone EVENING SHADE
St. 1-5
John Leland, 1792 Stephen Jenks, 1805

This hymn is one of the most attractive of those written in this country in the eighteenth century. The Rev. S.W. Duffield wrote that "there is an Ambrosian simplicity about this hymn which suggests at once a pure and unaffected piety, like that of the early church. The piece is really classic in its unpretending beauty." F.M. Bird states that the first publication of this hymn was in Philomela, or A Selection of Spiritual Songs by George Roberts (Petersburg, 1792). Its popularity dates from 1799 when it was included in the Hartford Selection of Hymns and it is this text which we reproduce. It will be noted that it was written in the first person as an individual prayer, although later editors have altered this feature of the text.
Among the early settings was a fuguing tune by Stephen Jenks published in 1805 which later gained a place in the Southern tune books and was retained in the Original Sacred Harp of 1936. However Jenk's EVENING SHADE was only a shortened version of his own MOUNT VERNON, which appeared in 1800 in his New England Harmonist. The earlier version is in the Aeolian mode. In the later arrangement the seventh step is sharpened in the tune in the third and in the penultimate bars suggesting a trend to minor. The traditional form printed by Annabel Morris Buchanan in her Folk Hymns of America is also modal. Jeremiah Ingalls includes a setting of this text in his Christian Harmony (1805). (American Hymns Old and New, vol. 2 (Notes by Charles W. Hughes), pp. 42-43)

John Leland was a "preacher and evangelist; b. Grafton, Mass., May 14, 1754; d. Jan. 14, 1841"; Stephen Jenks was a "singing master, composer, and compiler; b. New Canaan, Conn., 1772, d. Thompson, Ohio, June 5, 1856."

EVENING SHADE (The day is past and gone) is on Alabama Sacred Harp Singers, Sacred Harp Singing (Rounder CD 1503), with this note: "The composer is unknown. John Leland (Massachusetts, 1754-1841) is credited with the words. Leland was a Baptist itinerant preacher who was active in Virginia for fifteen years after the revolutionary war." "The day is past and gone" was sung to the tune LOGAN on Lomax's Southern Journey, V. 10: And Glory Shone Around -- More All Day Singing From the Sacred Harp, where the note says Leland "wrote this hymn in 1835" (this date is questionable; he could not have writtten it posthumously).
EVENING HYMN (not EVENING SHADE) is said to have been composed by Elisha West (1756-after 1808). It's also on Paul Hillier's compilation album, Home to Thanksgiving: Songs of Thanks and Praise (harmonia mundi HMX 2907264). West's works have been published in Two Vermont Composers: The Collected Works of Elisha West and Justin Morgan (Music of the New American Nation - Sacred Music from 1780-1820 , Vol. 7), which I have not seen.

To my regret, I haven't heard your singing (not included in 9 LP/CDs in my hand), but have the printed score, which is a beautiful modal tune (in Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians and Something to Sing About!).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Burke
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 12:01 PM

The 1991 ed. of the Sacred Harp lists Jenks as the composer of Evening Shade, it may be that the edition used when the Lomax recording was done did not have that information. Warren Steel updated the composer attributions for the 1991 ed. of the Sacred Harp. He's also the editor of Jenks' collected works so we can trust that attribution.

Southern Sacred Harp singers traditionally ignore the sharp 7th's & raise the 6th's a bit so it ends up halfway between aeolian & dorian.

Before I was 'converted' on the raised 6th's & lowered 7th's I used to get involved in long discussions about composers original intent, etc. The first time I attended the Midwest Sacred Harp Convention in Chicago a number of years ago I got 'stuck' in the back row because I was late. I ended up next to an older gentleman from Sand Mountain in Alabama who hardly ever even looked at the book. As we sang Evening Shade he sang a note that was not what I was used to singing. I looked down, saw it was the fa 6th. From then on I've raised those 6th without question, to the degree that I am able.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Burke
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:39 PM

Oops, did not quite thoroughly read everything.

Evening Hymn by West is a different tune than Evening Shade by Jenks. Both do use the same words. Evening Hymn has been reprinted in the Northern Harmony & is lovely.

I haven't heard Jean's version either, so I don't know which tune hers might have been based on. Of course, it could be a different tune entirely since the whole idea of the tuneless books was to use any tune in the correct meter that fit.

Getting back to Liland's original question. toadfrog linked to 2 sites with the same 7 extra verses & those same were posted in an earlier thread here. Does anyone know what the 'source' of that particular combination of added verses is?

Jean, your 6 for Amazing Grace are Newton's originals & the 7th is a pretty much universal addition now. I'm curious as to how far it might go back in oral tradition. 1909 is the earliest date I know of for it's being in print with Amazing Grace.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,prudentius
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 02:22 PM

Just to add a couple of comments: Early on in the thread someone implied that the quatrain "We lay our garments by" was sung as part of "Amazing grace" in Bill Moyers' documentary. Then the meter question arose. Amazing grace" is Common Meter (8686). "The day is past and gone" is Short Meter (6686). In the old days, any precentor or "chorister" would know the difference. But these are not the old days. I have been to churches where only one or two tunes are still lined out, and congregations are expected to adapt the tune to hymns of a different meter, with results the old-timers would call comical or disgraceful. "The day is past and gone" (from which the "disrobe" verse comes, is known in ornamented versions that resemble the short-meter tune IDUMEA. Alan Lomaz collected such a version in solo performance from a female singer (was it Vera Hall?), but it could easily be sung with lining out. "The day is past and gone" is by Leland, as Masato writes. Someone noted that Billups' Sweet Songster attributes it to Dupuys, who was the compiler of a campmeeting songster (wordbook), from which Billups presumably got it. The fuging-tune EVENING-SHADE is by Stephen Jenks, but it is not a "shortened version" of his own MOUNT-VERNON, as Masato states. Finally, the "When we've been there" verse never made a bit of sense to me in "Amazing grace." Where? Lots of hymns end with verses about heaven, but not this one. In fact, it has been shown that "When we've been there" was part of many 18-19c versions of "Jerusalem my happy home," where the verse fits in perfectly in a discussion of the heavenly city! It wasn't added to "Amazing grace" until around 1900, by an unknown person, in a lapse of both logic and taste.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:25 PM

Well! Thank you, Masato, Burke, Prudentius- I guess the Old Regulars were't too particular about who composed their hymns- they just sang them...Billups' SWEET SONGSTER has just a few credits, unless Billups were the composer. Most of them are just printed without credit-e.g., "There is a Happy Land" shows no author/composer at all. Another wordbook the Old Regulars used, HYMNS AND SPIRITUAL SONGS,, by Elder E.D. Thomas (always referred to as, The Thomas Hymnal), is the same; sometimes there's a surname to the right of the title, but no date nor other information.

I hesitate to read off to you any more of these Old Regular hymns- that would keep you busy until Doomsday! Well...here's one we did not sing in Mom's church, but reading the lyric suggests an unusual meter, and none is given, nor title:

Come, let us anew,
Our journey pursue;
Roll round with the year,
And never stand still till the Master appear;
His adorable will
Let us gladly fulfill,
And our talents improve,
By the patience of hope, and the labor of love.

It has three verses, and the second mentions "the mellenial year." I think it was probably written for the century ending in 1900? Many thanks for all your research. Jean


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:10 PM

I notice that the 1876 revision of John Wesley's hymns gives one entitled "The day is past and over"; wonder if this is closely related to the one under discussion above, or wholly unrelated.

Thanks to Mary for the emailed midi. Perhaps in a somewhat similar style is the midi of the tune I christened "West Jefferson" given in my online hymnal for the distinctly un-upbeat Newton hymn I would, but cannot, sing; the text is from the Primitive Baptists' text-only hymnal by Goble (1887, I believe).

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:17 PM

I'm afraid it's not related. Here's the text: The Day Is Past and Over. Oh well...

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 08:57 AM

Burke, I'm the one who posted the 13 verses in the earlier thread. I posted them as I found them in various places, so the order is chronological. A couple are variations, as mentioned above.

I seem to remember that the one about "Amazing grace has set me free, to touch, to taste, to feel . . ." is from a Judy Collins booklet which I cannot find. I believe she wrote that verse. The one about "We lay our garments by ..." I found in the Bill Moyers TV special. I wish now that I had documented where I found the others, but I know that some were surely from old songbooks. None of my sources had all 13 verses.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,Prudentius
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 01:34 PM

To Jean (kytrad): thanks for your comments, and your citation of "Come let us anew." This is a good example of a song in a rare meter that would bumfuzzle many a songleader. I doubt that the text, with its mention of "the mellenial year," was "written for the century ending in 1900," since, as you say, you quote it from the 1877 Thomas Hymnal. In Billups Sweet Songster (1854) the words are given as "matutinal year." But the original is "millennial year," and it's by Charles Wesley, written for New Years Day 1750! The text is on the Web among Wesley's other hymns at http://www.ccel.org/w/wesley/hymn/jwg00/jwg0047.html You may also be interested in the resources on lined-out hymnody at http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/resource/chap13.html part of Steven L. Sabol's shape-note resource list.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 09:47 PM

Right you are, Prudentius- I had noticed it in the Thomas Hymnal and did't think to look in Sweet Songster. The Thomas was published in 1877, by the way. Well, I suppose that Charles Wesley was celebrating the millenium of Something, when he wrote the song in 1750. Thanks for the information on lining-out the hymns- I have always sung them in our old church, but only recently have seen articles written by southern friends and realized that our Old Regular Baptist Church, and its brothers, rivals and branches, have a trail going back to beginnings in New England. Before that, I believe, the roots go further back, into Scotland and England mainly, with a bit of American Indian thrown in, maybe.

Barbara Shaw- Your 13-verse version of "Amazing Grace," was in truth amazing, but it's clear they don't all belong in the original song. I recognized two or three different songs from which a verse had been borrowed. I haven't gone back to re-read them today, but can give you the titles of those songs if you care to have them.

Liland, my Thomas Hymnal has, "I Would, But Can Not Sing," with no composer credits given. It has 8 verses, and appears in the section entitled, "Trust in God." The verses are the same as the one you give; some of the punctuation is different, only. Your major melody is one I haven't heard as a hymn, but it is similar to tunes I have heard with early "old-time" secular songs when I was growing up. Many thanks, all, Jean


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:10 PM

The millennium is yet to come.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 03:45 PM

It actually is spelled, "mellenial," in the Thomas book. Maybe it doesn't even mean, "millinnium."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 04:07 PM

Jean, I would appreciate knowing which songs those extra verses came from. I actually found all of them in various songbooks, listed as actual verses of Amazing Grace, although some of them seem to be "all purpose" generic verses that are used wherever the meter fits.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 07:18 PM

Just realized what Liland's first concern was- the meter in that "disrobing" verse. In our tune, it goes something like:

We-e lay-ay-ay ou-r ga-a-ar-ar-ar me-e-ents by

I know- it sounds as though I'm crazy! Works fine, though. Best I can do, knowing nothing about written music.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 01:19 AM

Thanks, Jean! Yeah, that was indeed my initial concern - what to do with what looked to me like two missing syllables in that "disrobing" verse. But all the digressions the thread has taken since then have been very interesting, too, and I've ended up with a bunch of useful information as well as a very interesting MIDI that I am told sounds like you. ;-)

Merry Christmas to all!

Liland
Esperanto hymnalist and occasional hymnist


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 02:59 AM

Jean "kytrad" Ritchie's son Jon just sent me a MIDI of the Old Baptist "Amazing Grace!" tune as sung by Jean, as well as a jpeg of the sheet music, and I have posted them as quick as I could type the html (yes, I type my html!) in my online hymnal:

http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thcdiv/partituroj/AG.html (sheet music)

http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/en/amazinggr1.html (Olney stanzas)
http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/en/amazinggr2.html (Folk Process Accretions)
http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/m/mirigagra2.html 2 Esperanto hymns (the first one original in Esperanto [and not half bad], the second a [rather poor IMHO] translation of Newton's.

I call Mudcatters' attention particularly to the "Folk Process" page, where I have summarized the additional stanzas gleaned from a number of sources, largely at the Mudcat, and added a few details I haven't seen here.

Thanks, Jean and Jon. Hope you approve of what I've done with your material here!

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:34 PM

Thanks Liland! I'm glad to see this melody get the attention it deserves...Kentucky mountain folks have been singing it for uncounted years.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Desdemona
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:39 PM

I agree that the insertion of "earthly" seems simplest & feels right with the rest of the song.

On the other hand, you could have some real fun by substituting words like "ugly", "smelly", "threadbare" or "tacky"!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: voyager
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 04:48 PM

At last night's DOWN FROM THE MOUNTAIN concert,
Ralph Stanley led the singing on AG(backed by the whole
host of artists) with the FAIRFIELD FOUR singing bass
underneath. The song reached to the heavens.

voyager


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Burke
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 05:35 PM

Liland, when I identified the 'How long, Dear Saviour,' verse with Northfield, I forgot to mention that it is the final verse of Watts' hymn that begins "Lo! What a glorious sight appears."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:14 PM

Glad you like it, Jean! Now I've even provided a link to it from my new "Amazing Grace: 2 Japanese Versions" page (which I hope Masato will be kind enough to critique for me while it's still fresh). The background music there is New Britain, but the MIDI link at the bottom is to the Old Regular Baptist tune. I've also significantly revised my Stanzas Added page, so I invite you all to look at it again and suggest any further improvements or corrections.

Burke, the "final" stanza you cite from Watts (or what passes for Watts in CCEL; 'twould be wise to consult the ancient hard copy before getting dogmatic; anybody have access to a copy?), to wit:
How long, dear Savior! O how long
Shall this bright hour delay?
Fly swifter round, ye wheels of time,
And bring the welcome day.
is not exactly either that which appears in another Mudcat thread, namely
How long, dear Saviour, oh how long
Have I on earth to stay?
Roll on, roll on, ye wheels of time
And bring that joyful day.
nor that which is set as the "first" stanza to Northfield in the 1844 Sacred Harp, i.e.:
How long, dear Saviour, Oh how long
shall this bright hour delay?
Fly swift around, ye wheels of time,
And bring the promised day.
There's still a bit of research to be done here, I think.

Liland
(who is nevertheless reasonably proud of his compilation)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:23 PM

It's always something. If it isn't one thing, it's another. The Stanzas Added page link should be to http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/en/amazinggr2.html, not to the Mudcat's home page.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 07 Feb 02 - 12:05 PM

Even the infallible are sometimes not so...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,Don B.
Date: 18 Apr 11 - 06:00 AM

The "Day Is Past and Gone" lyrics have been reworked and appear as the following:

Christ Jesus is my Shepherd King,
Who ransoms from the fall;
I'll be clothed with His righteousness,
When death disrobes us all.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,Samuel J. Hardman
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:15 PM

Many thanks. I am absolutely delighted to find that many are interested by this lovely "lost" stanza of Amazing Grace. I corrected this stanza in my work "Amazing Grace: How Sweet it Sounds" in 2005:

"As now we lay our garments by,
Upon the bed to rest,
So death erelong disrobes us all
Of what we now possess."

Samuel J. Hardman


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 12:41 PM

I guess that would fit nicely before " yea, when this heart and flesh shall fail ..."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,Samuel J. Hardman
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 11:09 PM

Pete (from seven stars link),

Please give us the complete stanza: "Yea, when this heart and flesh shall fail" And if you know more stanzas, give them. I am very interested, and I feel sure others are, too.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 10:58 PM

The Geocities page I linked to back in 2002 is in archive.org at https://web.archive.org/web/20091027050605/http://www.geocities.com/cigneto/thctxt/en/amazinggr2.html. The only problems I've found are the Scottish Gaelic version at the bottom being a dead link, and the MIDI file of Jean's ORB tune not working. (The file is there but software that opens other MIDI files isn't able to open it.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Amazing Grace 'disrobed' stanza
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 01:55 PM

Yea , when this heart and flesh shall fail / and mortal life shall cease / I shall possess within the veil / a life of joy and peace                                                                                  Another verse I've heard that's not usually in the hymn book -                                             The earth shall soon dissolve like snow / the sun refuse to shine / but God who called me here , below / shall be forever mine


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