info?: Horses Brawl

Subject: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 10:41 AM

in a radio 4 prog Sat 15th
viz "Sounds from the Seabed" How musical instruments salvaged from The Mary Rose have been replicated today
amongst a lot of exceptionally interesting stuff they played a tune they called "Les Boufont" (hair not air?) which for all the world sounded like out "Horses Brawl" by "Horses Branle" but with all the interesting bits taken out. Are there any other "also rans"?
In the key of GG ho ho ho
(G to G minor in Blowzabella's book actually)

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 10:42 AM

out should read "out of", must have thrown a shoe there.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: John P
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:52 PM

"The Horse's Bransle" is one of many bransles that start with the same six notes or so. Many of them sound similar in the rest of the tune as well. "Bouffons" is one of the best known of the other bransles.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Dec 01 - 10:07 PM

Charlotte's, Maltese, Peascod; bransles are boring. Try Black Aleman, Saltarello, Sellinger's Round......Pavannes are boring too, esp. when you have to play them 50 times because of the length of the Procession.......I am sick of Earl of Salisbury.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: John P
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:58 AM

Aw, Sorcha, bransles can be good if you play them with enough energy. Have you heard Malicorne's take on the Bransle de Chevaux or the Bransle de la Haie? My band sometimes does Bouffons -- arguably one of the most simplistic melodies ever written -- but we play it with a great deal of vigor and I put a highly rhythmic accompaniment with it. People always think they're hearing something with more actual melody.

We've been doing a couple of tordions that I like a lot, also a basse dance called "Jouissance vous donnerai". I agree that saltarellos are nice -- I really enjoy the two I know. And, of course, a couple of La Rottas. I like a lot of the English country dances -- Sellinger's Round that was mentioned is a good one, as are Robin Hood's Dance, Rufty Tufty, and Gathering Peascods.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 10:51 AM

Gee thanks folks
I was looking for more nags but this is fine.
any more?
what about the dance moves to go with them?
call me unusual (as a keen dancer) but I particularly like Horses Bra**(**) because it is so inclusive, not being a partner dance and kids just join-in the spirit with their own bits.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,HelenJ
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 11:29 AM

I heard the programme too - very interesting, especially the bit about the shawm. I also thought they played a variation on Horse's Branle (or is it Horses' Branles?) I don't know, I just play it. Have you heard Branles des Pois and Washerwoman Brawl? They go well together. I've got Shave The Monkey doing it on CD - they go well together. I taped the music bits of the programme. Pity they didn't last longer.

HelenJ.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 01 - 05:37 PM

I like the idea of Washerwomans Brawl - sort of graphical - (one you can, dare I say, - let rip?). I will investigate that one.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 02:40 PM

Looks like the horse we are flogging is dying.
thanks for the info......

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 04:28 PM

Hole in the Wall is fun. I have dance steps written down, but they would be nearly impossible to post. PM me your snail addy and I will copy and mail.......music, too if you like.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM

I was going to ask about 'Brawl' v 'Bransle' - but then found it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bransle

to share wi' y'all!

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 07:26 AM

On the subject of the Mary Rose, it's recovery was a treasure trove for archaeologists and everything on it was new, unopened and well preserved.
In 1996, I was working in a lab at Bradford University minding analytical equipment which was occasionally "borrowed" by the archaeologists. One was investigating the contents of a medicine chest from the ship. The jars had been filled, sealed and packed for the voyage, then sunk. It was about the only example of original untampered contents which could be accurately dated.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:16 AM

There is a famous genre of tune in Japan, "packhorsemen's songs". These have been elaborated far beyond anything a working horseman could possibly have sung, with wildly complex instrumental variations. One of the commonest types is called "Esashi oiwake" (there must be YouTube and Spotify versions but I can't look for them right now).

The most elaborate horse tune in British tradition is probably "John Paterson's Mare" aka "The Black and the Grey" - long set of variations in the William Dixon Manuscript. Not in the same league as "Esashi oiwake" though.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: bubblyrat
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:00 AM

One lives and learns.....I always thought of it as a "Branle",sans "s", but I am happy to stand corrected. Actually, I rather like this tune (The Horse's one) , but I find that it sounds much better ( and,in my opinion ,more authentic) if one plays it all in the same key,and avoids the dirgy minor bit....give it a try ! ( I mean ,play the dirgy minor bit,but in the same key as the rest of it ....lovely !).

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: TheSnail
Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:47 PM

bubblyrat

I mean ,play the dirgy minor bit,but in the same key as the rest of it ....lovely !

What!? and lose the two great defining characteristics of the tune?

First, the "dirgy" minor bit itself, made all the more interesting by the fact that nobody can quite agree on Bbs and F naturals.

Second, the return to the beginning. Half the musicians (especially the melodeon players) have dropped out for the C music so the power surge you get when everybody piles back in at the beginning of the A is positively org... Well, very nice.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Marje
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 04:49 AM

Well, thanks Bryan, that's one of the most positive things I've ever heard anyone say about melodeons in sessions!

But I have to say I agree with bubblyrat. When I first heard the tune played, it was all in G major with none of that dirgy minor nonsense. I find the minor C-music rather lugubrious -the fact that it feels so much better when it changes back doesn't make the minor key good in itself. And it makes for a somewhat downbeat finish to the tune/dance.

Marje

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:38 AM

I came across Branles de Chevaux and Branles Couples in the Czech Republic on a Christmas Week Folk Dance Course run by "Dvorana" in 1993 & 1999, this was their programme this Christmas:

http://dvorana.cz/dance/2009/xmas/index.php

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Marje

that's one of the most positive things I've ever heard anyone say about melodeons in sessions!

Which, the dropping out or the coming back in?

And it makes for a somewhat downbeat finish to the tune/dance.

Always make the last F sharp and at the very end finish on a Gmajor chord.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:15 AM

Is "Mr Red" still around?

I interpreted the original message as a request for horse-related tunes, but it wasn't very clear.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: treewind
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 06:29 AM

"Half the musicians (especially the melodeon players) have dropped out for the C music"

Never mind the dropping out or coming back, the "positive thing about melodeons" there is including us in the same sentence as musicians!

I always drop out at the C music if it's a session with people I don't know, in order to find out what they others are going to do (and the answer is often: they don't all do the same. Ouch!) The Bb isn't a problem but if they play an F natural I have to steer clear of that. Rhythmical hammering on D (low and high together) makes a nice alternative.

Anahata

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 07:57 AM

The dirgy bit is the most fun part of the dance! I love the Arbeau book (Info here then scroll down) as much for the illustrations as for the dances, but have used it to teach renaissance dances to kids. The faster bit involves some fast footwork, but then everyone stops and bows and curtseys and flirts and it's a good time all round.

Seems to me you can do that flirting and stuff musically in a session just as well!

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:25 AM

Re: the C weird bit on melodeons, I've tried to play it but much easier to leave out on the treble but just keep playing the bass accompaniment.

On my instrument, Delicia D/G, the accidentals needed are at the extreme top end of the trebles, so it'd be much easier to play 'em if I had a prehensile thumb on me right hand!!

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: bubblyrat
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:42 AM

Good to see such a major / minor debate ensuing here !
    Does anyone know from what period the tune comes,and whether or not the contemporaneous musicians (and,indeed,their instruments ) were up to playing the C part in a minor mode / key,whatever ? ( I am not a musician !).

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Marje
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:46 AM

My melodeon doesn't have accidentals, so B flat is not an option. I either leave out the C music or do a sort of vamp using an open-5th G chord. But now that Bryan has revealed how exciting he finds it when the non-playing melodeons come back in, perhaps I'll stick to the first option and have a quiet gulp or two of beer during that bit. Or sometimes I play recorder, but my recorder playing is of dubious benefit in a session.

And yes, I too would be interested to know where and when the tune took this form, and which instruments would have been used in this place/time. I've always assumed it was connected to the Moorish influences on some regional French music, but this may be wrong.

Marje

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:59 AM

Does anyone know from what period the tune comes,and whether or not the contemporaneous musicians (and,indeed,their instruments ) were up to playing the C part in a minor mode / key,whatever ? ( I am not a musician !).

The tune comes from Thoinot Arbeau's Orchesography of 1589 (Branle de chevaux), and the original version of the tune had the flattened notes - it's the all-major version which is the modern variant.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:21 AM

More info:

Orchesography was written by Arbeau (real name Jehan Tabouret) as a compendium and an instructional manual for the dances that were poopular at the French court at the end of the 16th Century: the tone of the discourse is that some of the dances recorded were falling out of favour and possibly even considered archaic by the time Arbeau was writing.

The musical instruments mentioned in the book (or, to be accurate and pre-empt MudPedants, the Dover Publications translation of the instrument names) include the fife, the pipe and tabor, the hautboys, and the violin. Most/all of those instruments, in the hands of averagely skilled court musicians of the period, would have easily coped with the inclusion of the flattened note for the C part of the Horses Brawl tune.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:42 AM

Reading the Wiki page describing the dance tradition and the etymology of the French word Bransle it suddenly struck a Francophile friend and I that this was also the origin of a popular French slang word for masturbation... ahem, 'shake', geddit?

It would not be an isolated case of a sexual slang word being used in a dance context, although given the age of the Bransle genre it would foolish to claim any original connection. But then I'm sure the other 'pass-time' is older still.

Therefore I give you this piece of information simply as an added dimension and to raise a smirk on your face the next time you play the tune. Everyone will wonder what you are so happy about.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 09:47 AM

.......so its really 'Horses W*nk'?? 8-)

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM

I know it's only baroque and bransles, but I like it

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 10:21 AM

Is "Mr Red" still around?
No he is still more straight up and down, though round is becoming more normal.

The original request was for tunes that were obvious derivatives of Horses Brawl, Like Les Bouffont. But if it sparks interest - in a tune I rather like...............

I have no problem with the key changes on the Bodhran..............

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Meggly
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:23 AM

I didn't know horses could wink...oh...I see what you mean. Blush, blush.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:03 AM

But now "sfman" says that it is, after all, as I have always called it, a "Branle" , NOT a " Bransle" ----

    So, come on then.....What's it to be ???

I STILL think it sounds much better without the flattened notes in the C-part !

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 03:30 AM


But now "sfman" says that it is, after all, as I have always called it, a "Branle" , NOT a " Bransle" ----

    So, come on then.....What's it to be ???



Either / both were common, but Arbeau uses 'branle'.

At about the same time over the channel in late 16th-Century London, Shakespeare's contemporaries couldn't even decide on a single spelling for his name (or indeed pretty much anything else) and would sometimes use different spellings of the same name or word in the same document: spelling just wasn't as fixed and codified as it is now.

A tradition which bubblyrat honours by spelling me 'sfman' of course :)

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:17 AM

Spelling was not important until Dr Johnson published his dictionary. Even after that it was not uncommon for those who could read and write to spell phonetically. eg

Whiskey, Whisky, Wiskey, Wisky and probably wiskee etc.

The first two survive today.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: bubblyrat
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:17 AM

Wel, spelink nevr wuz me forty,ennyarr.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 11:15 AM

It's how you say it and how you play it that counts, not how you spell it.

Subject: RE: info?: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Jun 16 - 03:59 AM

You Toob animation not the dance that I was familiar with, but then the version we dance commonly is properly the "City Brawl" written by Eddie Upton. He tried to make it appropriate by making a horseshoe shape, and the format lends itself to not needing a set number (10 can do it if they know the dance, 6 or 7 will suffice) and you don't need a partner, nor does the dance. What I calls a mixer dance. Inclusive, a "get the wallflowers up and in" dance. What social dance is all about IMNSHO.

Wki on Thoinot Arbeau (aka) French cleric Jehan Tabourot who did the French equivalent of John Playford's (wiki) EDM (website has no music)

ORCHESOGRAPHY - By JOHN WEAVER, Dancing-Master - Gutenburg Project only a hint of Arbeau and no horses or Bransles/Brawles.

I was sure I had seen a website that listed Horse's Bransle as a tune not the dance in the EDM but it is proving very elusive, and my copy of Encyclopaedia Blowzabellica seems to have danced away. It might have had useful references.