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So what if I'm playing in the wrong key?
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Subject: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: GUEST,Nick Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:39 PM I have been printing out lots of pennywhistle notations of Christmas Carols from digital tradition. There are times when I find one that I dont't have a whistle in the right key for. I have been playing the song anyway. Bb notation played on a D whistle. How much will this screw up people who want to sing along? Or if I play with others! It sounds ok but, I am I commiting some henoius slight to the baby Jeusus? ( Ok so that is a bit much but I think you see where I'm going with this.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Jeri Date: 16 Dec 01 - 01:50 PM Other folky instrument players will love you for D. Instrumentalists who don't play from sheet music in Eb probably won't mind, and singers can probably easily adapt, if they notice at all. Personally, I don't do Eb, either...well, not on purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Bill D Date: 16 Dec 01 - 02:00 PM I suspect that if the singers can't handle a key, you'll find out soon enough!...*grin*...if you have several whistles, just switch to one that works...and use the easiest fingering, like I do! |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Dec 01 - 02:21 PM The wrong key is when it's different from the key other people are playing or singing in. Or if it's an impossible key for someone to sing in or play in. Which doesn't apply with most Christmas Carols, because they don't tend to have tunes that can't be sung by most singers in a range of keys.
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 01 - 02:26 PM Folk songs don't come with mandated keys. Get used to it!! This policy has the official approval of the Baby Jesus, too! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: M.Ted Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:02 PM If you know it in one key, and someone else starts playing in another, you will find out soon enough what the problems are-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:04 PM It really depends on the circumstances - I doubt that players playing in Bb would appreciate you although instruments that tend to favour that sort of key include brass instuments so you may not be heard anyway... As Jeri noted, many players of folky instruments love D but it may be a good plan to invest in a Bb whistle as it would give you more flexibility. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Mr Red Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:16 PM Well lets think laterally folks, stables never had keys now did they? I'll get my coat (of many colours) |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:33 PM This is not precise music, and adaptability is important. Just because you have always played a tune in a certain key, that does not make it the "right" key. Classical music IS predise. Beethovens violin concerto in D would not do well in F# minor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:41 PM This is something I've wondered about for a long time. Is key just the change of pitch a few steps up or down, or does a change of key cause other, more subtle differences. If a song is written in C and I change it to G, what happens? Why are so many classical pieces identifies by their key? If you play it in another key a few steps higher or lower, is it still the same, or are there other differences? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: X Date: 16 Dec 01 - 03:48 PM As most of you know most bluegrass banjo tunes are in the key of G. If I try to play them in any other key, well my banjo's neck is just not long enough. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Jon Freeman Date: 16 Dec 01 - 04:06 PM Joe, some people seem to hear differences that I can see no reason for but there are other factors - here a couple I can think of: The standard 12 TET scale equally spaces all the notes by a given interval and in some ways is a compromise scale, e.g. I think the 5th doen't sit where the natural 5th lies - the sort of thing where your ear may disagree with a tuner when tuning a guitar. Not all instruments are tuned this way, and therefore can give more noticible "feels" of different keys. Stringed instruments sound different on the open strings to fretted strings. Most intruments are simply easier to play in certain keys than others. Jon |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Jeri Date: 16 Dec 01 - 04:21 PM Joe, I've heard others say certain music sounds better in certain keys, but to me, it just sounds higher or lower in a different key. I suspect some pieces are written in a specific key because of the range of the instruments, but this is just a guess. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: JohnInKansas Date: 16 Dec 01 - 04:56 PM Joe, Jeri & others: In olden times, when instruments were actually tuned mainly by using harmonics and beats of one note against another, tuning was nearly always to the "harmonic" scale(s). In this system, there is a very real difference when you change the key of a tune. With enharmonic tuning, a Bb in the key of F is not necessarily the same frequency as the A# in the key of B. When Beethoven "pushed" the equal tempered scale into a degree of acceptance, the distinctions - for ET tuned instruments - became much less important. Harmonic scale tuning still is used - on antique organs and in a cappella singing (e.g. barbershop), but for the most part the world works to the ET scale, and key changes don't have the impact they once did. As a personal opinion -- t.i.c., persons who make a fetish of cross-tuning their git's to all of the "right" harmonics automatically make themselves "out of tune" if they change keys: but if they cain't hear that, then we'll let them do their thing. Listen to a good barbershop or other unaccompanied group, to get a feel for how things work in the enharmonic world. In the real world, pitch varies so much with fret locations, bridge compensations, aggressiveness of attack, and dozens of other things, that "close enough" is really all that is obtainable - or required. It has to sound good - and be fun. John |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: IvanB Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:21 PM In musical parlance, raising the pitch (key) of music tends to 'brighten' it. Conversely, lowering pitch 'darkens' it. And, yes, it does change the sound and even the 'feeling' conveyed by the music. Years ago, I was in a small choral group which sang a cappella most of the time. I remember one particular case where the conductor had us raise the key of a piece by a semitone to brighten it. Most of us, who read music by relative intervals, had no problem, But we had one person in the group with perfect pitch. She had a terrible time because she had to transpose the piece mentally while singing it. But the change of key definitely did change the sound and the effectiveness of the music, which was a Renaissance mass. All that said, if a piece of music is in a key that's unsingable for me, I'll change it, composer be damned. If I'm squawking uncontrollably I doubt the 'darkness' or 'brightness' of the tune will make much difference - any listeners will merely hear a bad performance. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Sorcha Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:39 PM If you really are playing in Bb, you are pretty much garunteed to lose the fiddlers. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Amos Date: 16 Dec 01 - 07:42 PM As far as folk guitar playing goes it does make a difference. The intervals involved in a major chord are the same for any key relative to the tonic note; but those intervals fall very differently in the fingering of one key or another on a standard tuning guitar. Not to mention what happens when you open-tune the instrument. Changing the key by capoing up doesn't have this effect. Most blues players learn their boogie woogie in E. for example. So an awful lot of blues are played in E-A-B7 and related chords. But the same songs played in the G configuration will have a different emphasis in intervals, with some of the brighter notes now falling on the lower strings and vice versa. Also, just organically, there are certain kinds of runs and sequences that as guitar player drops in to in one or another key. These can change the fabric and feel of a song as it is performed. A |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 16 Dec 01 - 08:55 PM I dont consider myself a musician, so, what I dont know would fill a big book. To capo up the neck of a guitar does tend to "brighten" the piece, but, you lose the lows. My favorite chord is D because I can tune the low E down to D and get a really full chord. It's a kick ass chord on a 12 string in the Dminor position. Gordon Bok tunes his down to C and if you listen to Peter Kagan and the wind, you will hear that low note like the crack of doom. It really says a lot at that point in Kagans story. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Sorcha Date: 16 Dec 01 - 09:11 PM Seriously, though, changing the key does sometimes change the "feel/character" of a song. I can't imagine something like Dona Dona done in D major, even though it is possible. Of course, minors should always be left as minors, etc. but some folks don't.
I also can't imagine RagTime Annie in anything but A--usually the "commonly accepted" key gives sympathetic resonances and easy drones which would be lost if the the key were changed. Sometimes it really doesn't matter--John Henry sounds fine in either D or G. Would be strange in F, though.
I think you will find that USULALLY a tune/song in a particular key is designed for a particular instrument. For example:
Glass O'Beer in D has great whistle fingerings, but bad for fiddlers. Fiddlers prefer it in (something else) It has to do with fingering patterns for each specific instrument. Key is not generally the problem, fingering is. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: paddymac Date: 16 Dec 01 - 09:14 PM You might accidently be shifting the music into some modal octave, which might, or might not sound ok. Just because your whistle is for another key doesn't necessarily mean the notes you are playing are not in the piece or some appropriate chord. When you hit a note that doesn't fit, you will most likely hear it. If so, just play some other note that does fit, and if anybody should ask just tell them you're playing a harmony line instead of the melody. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Bob Bolton Date: 16 Dec 01 - 09:20 PM G'day Nick, I've been doing a number of Australian Carols, particularly those written by John Wheeler and William James, back in the 1940s, to give us carols about celebrating something that may have happened in Israel against our own setting ... not the dark gloomy fortests of northern Europe (synchretised from a lot of older religions). Many of these are in the "flat keys" eg; Bb and Eb. I tend to transpose these down one semitone ... to A and D respectively and, especially with more modern voices, these prove to be comfortable singing keys (as well as ones in which I have whistles, or accordions or concertinas). A few get another shift if it turns out that people prefer another key ... that is the ultimate test ... there is nothing holy about the original key, although it may well be carefully thought out for the voice ranges of trained choristers singing in 4-part harmony. If it works ... it works. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Dec 01 - 09:45 PM If the key fits, turn it. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Bobert Date: 16 Dec 01 - 10:13 PM Well said, McGrath. I used to lead a rock band and every time I introduced a new song to the band I'd get a lot of "Blah, blah, blah" from them but guess what, after I went throuh it a few times, the boyz would figure it out and get over it... until I introduced the next song that is. It's all relative. You can play just about anything in any key and make it work. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: M.Ted Date: 17 Dec 01 - 01:40 AM JohninKansas point about the tempered versus the untempered scales is still important, since, ewven now, only keyboards and fretted instruments are really tempered(and fretted instruments can be tuned with perfect chords in open positions and tunings) --violins/fiddles always play the perfect fifths rather than the tempered ones, and the D penny whistles and such are usually not tempered-- In addition, even when part of a tempered scale, different key notes have different sounds, partly because the audible frequency range is fixed, and the higher the note, the fewer audible overtones it has, the lower the pitch, the more audible overtones, and partly because the instrument(even the voice) resonates differently relative to different pitches(guitarists know that a D down tuning makes the instrument vibrate in a whole new way)-- So different songs played in different keys do sound different--if they didn't, what point would there be in having different keys?
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 17 Dec 01 - 07:35 AM My rule of thumb when playing solo is to pitch a song in whichever key ensures that the highest note in a song is the highest note I can sing comfortably. In my case this would normally be an "E", although sometimes I will take it down so that the highest note is a "D". But that is just what suits me. My experience is that women tend to sing naturally about a fifth above the male voice, so a song which I would sing in, say, in the key of D, will sound better transposed into the key of A if I am accompanying a woman. Not to drift too far off the thread here, but in what key do you sing "Happy Birthday" ? Normally I sing it in G, but my guess is that most women would prefer to sing it in D. But for a male to sing it in that key he would have to be either a basso profundo or a castrato. (Or an expert harmonizer). Murray |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:04 AM Keys? Keys? We don't need no steenkin' keys! RtS(OLd Skiffler's Sayings #201) |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:16 AM I can't see any problem with Happy Birthday in D. So long as the range if a song is fairly I can't see any problem in singing in just about any key - if you can't reach the high note, sing it an octave lower, and vice versa.
If the range is so wide you have to sing the lowest notes high, and the highest notes low, it can get a bit confusing, but most songs don't involve that.
The crucial thing with keys is that if you're playing with someone who can only play some keys - as with some squeezeboxes - it's not polite to try and play in keys they can't play. The same goes if it's possible for them to play in the keys, but fiendishly difficult. (That doesn't include those guitarists who make a big thing about never using a capo. You should always try to play in C sharp or something like that in such cases.) |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Barbara Shaw Date: 17 Dec 01 - 08:31 AM Here's a link to a previous mudcat thread: Why Keys? which has more discussion and some interesting links. |
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Subject: RE: So what if I'm playing in the wrong key? From: Cappuccino Date: 17 Dec 01 - 09:23 AM I occasionally back a guitarist who, when asked for the key, says 'it's in D' - and never realises that he's playing D shapes, but with a capo on! And, while not wishing to disagree with Bobert, you can cartainly play a * lot * of things in different keys and make them work, but not * everything * - theoretically yes, in practice for mere humans, no. As Sorcha's pointed out twice, playing in Bb is a bitch for a fiddler. Certain tunes were written because they just fell under the fingers naturally on the fiddle, or mandolin, the way the strings are tuned. Just to make the point - why is the Shadows' 'Apache' played by every guitarist in Am, while the sheet music is in Dm???? All the best - Ian B |
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