Who is packing heat this Xmas?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Red Eye
Date: 01 Jan 02 - 04:39 AM

Says Big Mick with the last word.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 11:30 AM

LOL, GUEST. I had that coming, nicely done. You are right. I really am not after kat on this, she is just the one who responded. What I have been after in this endless thread is to get folks to talk, and quit throwing strident bs back and forth. kat is being honest on what she is posting, and frankly I find her to be less prone to the "slogans and statistics" stuff than most. But as I say, she responded. Jerry, quite frankly, also seems open to the talk it out kind of discussion that I think this very difficult subject requires. I guess I am guilty of taking this further, but I feel so strongly that (in the USA) we need to get to the point of bridging the divides between reasonable people. Both Jerry and Kat seem to reasonable, even though our opinions on the subject are different. I guess it is time to let this one go.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,in the mudcat observatory tower
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 10:02 AM

hey big mick,

at 6:40 last evening you accused kat and jerry the boy wonder of having to get in the last word in this thread.

since then you've posted three more times to this thread. you sir, are the king of having to have the last word.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 01:59 AM

Yall are going for the record for the longest thread, right?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 12:46 AM

Well, me mon, I don't know what else to say. I don't think debating tactics is going to get us anywhere. I could as easily say it seems as though you are badgering and holding some to a different standard, but where would that get us? There is nothing hidden in what I say or do, as anyone who knows me can tell you. I call them like I see them. I went to the website which those two GUESTs cited, www.keepandbearams.com, and the gist of it seems pretty strident and paranoid to me. I am allowed to have my own opinion, last I knew.:-) Conversely, I didn't see anything paranoid about the article I copied and pasted nor at the newspaper I got it from.

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:08 PM

Yep, Kat, that is what I was referring to. It wasn't a paranoid posting as best as I could see. If I recall correctly, it was simply the posting of a situation where a woman displayed uncommon good sense in how she handled herself when confronted by a tough situation. And the person who posted it asked a very good question, which was ignored. If it had been paranoid crap from the pro gun side, I would have been all over it as well.

You have stated any number of times that you were raised with guns, know how to shoot them, used to carry, etc. I understand that. But what I am after is straight talk on this issue, and that is why I asked you what the difference was between the tactic you used and the tactic the other person used. I don't think you answered that question except to say that you thought it was from someone you ID as paranoid. Even if that is true, what is the difference in the tactic? Because context is important, I ask this within the context of trying to get folks to talk straight on the issue.

And yes, dearie, I know we must agree to disagree, but I am trying to find out on which point.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:07 PM

Keep guns out of the hands of children? No arguement here.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 09:45 PM

Mick, are you talking about the posting I made after the postings by the GUESTs from Colorado Springs? If so, I posted that because it seemed obvious their postings were from the well-known faction there which is paranoid by all accounts which I've read from various sources or seen reported. And, I am not talking about teh Brady bunch or any other org. from the left, I am talking about news sources and my own research when working on trying to get a bias crimes law here in Wyoming.

The story I posted was from a well-respected newspaper and I don't believe it displayed any paranoia on my part of the writer's. I simply was using it for an example and wanted to honestly know what some of you thought about, as I indicated to Kendall.

Remember, please, I was raised with guns, target-shooting and knowing how to use one for protection. I still have my dad's old .22 single shot. Do I feel a need to have a gun? No. Do I believe we have a gun problem in this country? Yes. Do I have any answers? No, BUT I do think we need to do something to keep guns out of the hands of children and that includes boys like the ones in the story I posted. If that makes me paranoid, well then I guess I qualify for a room at the NYCFTTS.:-)

Once again, agreeing to disagree.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 09:07 PM

Message received, kat, but the question remains. What is the difference between what you did when you called someone paranoid for the story of the woman who protected herself and what you did in the story you posted? I am not picking on you here, I just want to know.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 08:55 PM

Thanks, Kendall, that's all I wanted was a reply from a perspective such as yours. Agreeing to disagree, here.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 08:42 PM

Kat, my friend, to answer your question, more guns in that case WOULD have led to a blood bath. That is not what this is all about. This whole thing started by someone who is afraid of guns, even in the hands of qualified people who SOMETIMES carry, (LEGALLY.) I say again, logic will never outweigh fear. As far as I'm concerned, this thread has gone far enough. No minds have been changed, and it has become an exercise in futility.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 08:32 PM

OK, Jerry, fair enough. But once again I would ask what is the point in the context of this discussion? Training and good intention is sometimes not enough when it comes to combating terrorism. Shall we stop? Training and good intention is sometimes not enough in granting a drivers license, shall we stop? Training and good intention is sometimes not good enough, shall we abolish flying? The knee jerk response to these rhetorical questions is that I am being ridiculous, but I am not in the context of the observation you made.

I return to the predicate that this debate should be built on. And that is that guns, legal and illegal, are part of the fabric of this collection of States. I make the distinction regarding States with the intent of showing why comparison of us to countries like England, Scotland, Wales, or any other, isn't a valid comparison. The closest to a valid comparison would be Canada, and even that great country doesn't have the diversity of tradtions that exist in the United States. Even if one could ban weapons, the only thing that could be banned would be legal weapons. In far too many jurisdictions, the police are already outgunned by illegal weapons. While you would have some minor adjustment in overall death rate due to accident, you would have a rise in deaths due to violent crime. That is shown to be the case in every jurisdiction where guns are banned or severely restricted. Criminals would not stop their violent ways. Another way to demonstrate the point would be to ask this question. What is to be gained by taking guns out of the hands of lawful, trained and responsible gun owners like myself? There is nothing to be gained, and it certainly won't stop the horrific events that usually spawn this debate.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 07:47 PM

WHY are adults using children's restrooms in a public school?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 07:12 PM

Mick,

The point was made that guns are perfectly safe when entrusted to them with the proper training, like cops, for example. Real life examples demonstrate that that is not always the case.

I'm sure that the proportion of cops who pull a stupid blunder like that is very small and I'm certainly not advocating disarming cops. The point that I'm making is that training and good intentions are not necessarily enough.

If I hadn't seen the news report this morning, I wouldn't have brought it up. I did see it though, and it is relevant to the discussion.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 06:40 PM

Jaysus, kat and boy wonder. Does the term demagogic come to mind? Don't you understand that for every one of your stories I can produce stories of people who have saved themselves and/or others by using a firearm? You folks just can't get by on intelligent discussion, you have to keep throwing this stuff out. It is easily refuted by using your same tactic. In fact, kat, my friend, you called someone a paranoid for posting just such a story earlier in this thread. What do we call you now for doing the same thing? Come on, guys, if its that important to have the last word, then just say you disagree and forget posting this stuff.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 06:20 PM

I found a link on the CBC News site about the story I saw this morning about the cop leaving his gun in a school bathroom.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 11:51 AM

The following is from Indian Country Today from a search on the words "wounded knee."

I would like to know how gun advocates think more guns in this case would have been helpful. The way I see it, if the Indian girls had had guns with them, there could have been a bloodbath "shoot-out" with many wounded and/or killed. I am not saying the girls shouldn't have been equally equiped; I am saying the boys shouldn't have had a shotgun in the first place.

This story comes from one of the most racist places in our nation, when it comes to Native Americans. IMO, gun ownership is not going to solve any of the problems inherent in the region. Nothing hypothetical about this one, folks:

Shooting incident creating ripples across the plains
Many tribes call for federal intervention in the case

Posted: December 06, 2001 - 7:00AM EST
by: Kay Humphrey / Today Staff / Indian Country Today

EAGLE BUTTE, S.D.— The Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe joined a growing list of tribal councils which have passed resolutions or voiced support in connection with a firearm incident directed against members of the Crow Creek girls basketball team in early November.

Councilmen briefly discussed the incident during a special session late last month saying they wanted to express their support of the Crow Creek officials and students.

During a recent regional BIA-tribal meeting in Bismarck, N.D., attended by representatives of all tribal councils in the three-state region, the issue was on the agenda with councilmen expressing outrage over the shooting incident.

Crow Creek Tribal Chairman Roxanne Sazue and tribal school officials have made every effort to assist authorities in bringing a pair of unidentified Hand County teens to justice.

"All of Indian country is watching this case and a lot of non-Indian folks are looking at it as well. All the chairmen were there. All the BIA superintendents were there,'' Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux Tribe Vice Chairman Jake Thompson said.

"People are angry. We're all waiting to see what's going to happen. They have to be sent a message.''

The girls, traveling home from the ballgame, weren't physically hurt in the Nov. 1 incident in which a semiautomatic 12-gauge shotgun was fired at a pickup truck, but the event frightened them. Two young white males from Miller were charged in juvenile court, but Hand County States Attorney James Jones has said he will try to get the case moved to adult court.

The action of one girl tossing an ice cream drink at a car in retaliation after the a pair of white teen-age boys shouted obscenities, racial slurs and made crude hand gestures toward the girls, set off a three-car chase with one car passing the pickup carrying the girls. The driver of the car hit the brakes and the passenger pulled out a shotgun firing as many four times, the girls and their parents said.

Some tribal leaders and Indian groups say the teen-agers should be prosecuted for more serious crimes and that there were delays in the arrests and prosecution.

Further upsetting tribal members is the failure of the South Dakota High School Activities Association to investigate claims fans were shouting racial slurs at Crow Creek players during a district competition. Some have speculated the actions may have been the prelude for the events that happened to the 20-year-old driver with five Crow Creek student passengers.

The Lady Chieftains girls basketball team played a game against Wessington Springs in Miller hours before the shooting.

Tribes have written letters to the U.S. Attorney's Office calling for an investigation into the incident. On Nov. 20, five days after the regional tribal-BIA meeting, the Sisseton-Wahpeton Tribal Council issued a letter to U.S. Attorney Michelle Tapken, expressing outrage and asking for federal intervention:

"In response to the described incident, we request that the District of South Dakota United States Attorney's Office initiate an investigation and determine whether there has been a violation of the laws enacted by Congress that provides criminal and civil remedies to victims of bias-motivated crimes."

Thompson said all the tribes have children attending Crow Creek High School, which operates as a boarding school. "That's why it's so important to us."

The Oglala Sioux Tribe decided it needs more information about the shooting before deciding upon a course of action and is conducting its own investigation. At least one of the tribe's enrolled members was in the pickup that night.

Tom Iron, vice chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, said a different approach beyond the courts might be in order and suggested bringing a federal mediation team to the area to work with tribal and non-tribal people in the area.

He said the shotgun incident was reminiscent of racial tensions that followed the occupation of Wounded Knee in the 1970s.

"We live in a society where there's so much tension."

The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe and the city of Mobridge went through increased racial tension following the death of Robert Many Horses, who died in 1999 after being stuffed into a garbage can by four white youths following a night of drinking.

After Many Horses' death, the Department of Justice sent two community relations specialists to the area to mediate problems between tribal members and the town.

"They did an excellent job. We had a lot of racial issues. We stood up and worked together. That could work here," he said.

The 16- and 17-year-old boys will appear in court in Miller Dec. 3. Each faces six counts of aggravated assault, a class three felony, in connection with the incident. Jones said the charges carry a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison and a $15,000 fine for each count if they are prosecuted as adults and convicted.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 09:43 AM

I just saw a story on the CBC sattelite news channel that a policeman in Quebec City went to speak to children at a grade school in October. After speaking to one class, he went to the bathroom and then went on to the next class.

A few minutes later, a seven year old boy finds the policeman's gun in the toilet stall. Luckily, the kid was smart enough to rush and get a teacher. Some other kid finding the gun might have precipitated a tragedy.

The cop was described as a veteran officer with a spotless record.

I guess that just goes to show that even those with the proper training can royally screw up.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 09:23 PM

Leprechaun, really, if you ever get near our area, you just gotta come over. If only to help us wipe the pee off the floor, cuz it ran outta my pants, down my leg.... really, we are in stitches here!!!!

Thank you so much for bringing a light touch to this!!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: leprechaun
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 07:37 PM

For those of us who have to pack heat, it can be a pain in the ass. You want to maintain some consistency, so it's not a good idea to switch your carrying method. When my buns get really sore, I'd like to switch to a shoulder holster, but I haven't found one that adequately conceals my duty weapon. Maybe when my torso gets broader...(My firearms instructor told me to drink more beer)

It also limits your wardrobe. You have to wear something that conceals the damn thing, so either you have a coat on, or you don't tuck your shirt in. I have a collection of hawaiian shirts, but that only works in the summer.

There are ways to tell if somebody's packin'. They have to adjust their clothes in a particular way when they stand up or sit down, or move about. They also tend to caress the thing occasionally, to make sure it's still there, that they didn't accidentally leave it at grandma's or drop it at the Grade three Christmas pageant. Oops, I mean, winter festival.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 04:17 PM

To those who want to live in fantasy land, ponder this hard cold fact. What is, is. We must deal with things as they are, not as we would like them to be.And, the fact is, this world is getting more and more dangerous.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 03:17 PM

There's nothing wrong with the logic at all. I know that I have the right to protect myself from illegal attacks against me - I know that that right extends to the lawful use of firearms. As Kendall says, there is no reason for me to allow any advantage to the people who would do me harm.

I don't advocate looking for ways to deter crime. I don't encourage vigilante-ism or anything. I advocate the lawful use of firearms. I don't own a firearm - but only because I don't have a use for one, don't travel in enviroments where I amy need one (very often) and haven't had the time or money to be a hobbyist - so I never bought one. I learned to use them (a bit) as a kid, and probably would have owned them had I continued living in the environment where I grew up (rural; hunting and shooting sports were common).

Trey is OK now, by the way. And the thug who injured healed OK too. The two attackers will be free of any punishment, criminal record or rehabilation efforts soon, as well (at 18 years their juvenile record is expunged). That's a damn shame; attempted murder is attempted murder no matter how old your were when you attempt it.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 09:27 AM

...there's something wrong with that logic, Jed. Everyone who wants to carry a gun to deter crime against them can already do that and it hasn't stopped very many criminals at all. All the Junior G men in the world would need capes to fly in order to stop all the crime they think they can deter...but I am very sorry about Trey

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 09:19 AM

All we want to do is to level the playing field! Why the hell should the scum bags have the advantage?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:23 AM

LOL - Kendall! I am sure you're correct about the second ammendment's origins.

I just learned today that my daughter-in-law's younger brother (Trey) was attacked on his way home from work (walking on a busy Houston street late at night) by two thugs intent on hurting him - the attackers were 15 & 16 years old and one was armed with a knife. Trey was punched, kicked and cut pretty badly, but managed to get the knife away from one of the guys and stabbed him with it. The other guy took off. Trey and the thug were take to the hospital, the second 'bad guy' was caught eventually - and the thugs were processed through the juvenile system. They will graduate to firearms for their next crimes - and now they know that some people will fight back, they'll pull the trigger first next time.

These are not misguided boys who just need a lucky break to rise above their lives of crime. These will be killers soon (if they aren't already) and if I run into them in the street, I know I would need to have a firearm if I had any hope of surviving the encounter.

'Packing Heat' as the thread title suggests is a reasonable thing to do for many of us. Thank God it is one of our options.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 09:19 AM

Listen to Mick. It is not the guns we should fear, it is the criminals! We must get at the reason these apes do what they do. If it were just the guns, then law abiding citizens like Mick and me would be robbing and killing.We have the means, but we lack the reason to mis use the gun. (It's all Englands fault anyway. the second amendment was an overreaction to the way the redcoats acted here before the revolution)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 09:09 AM

I am guilty of a little bating on this to see where folks would go...

Mick, I am sorry to learn that you did that. Adding and inviting upset and then expecting people to think MORE clearly is.... unrealistic, at best! I would have hoped that you would ALWAYS write from your heart, here, open-handed-- with nothing up your sleeve.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 03:20 AM

Gosh Bert, when I start making sense...we're in Big Trouble (that is in Texas, I believe, just down the road from Cut and Shoot)

CB

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 01:21 AM

I don't much disagree with them on a philosophical level, Jed. If those were the options, I would be right there with you. Imagine the havoc The Beef Brothers could wreak...........LOL. But my time in the political system of this country tells me that that is not where it will head. The slope is pretty much a certainty, but by folks like us being a part of the discussion, we can make sure that there are two sides of the hill that slope. I am not saying that we shouldn't have strident views. What I am saying is that, IMO, we have to understand the dynamic of the political system and remain a voice in it. If we have the views that you express, but are not willing to temper them with reality of what it is we face, we end up in a "Charge of the Light Brigade". Remember when the NRA wasn't a strident "slippery slope" organization? They were respected and no one would consider them a fringe organization. But when they started taking "cop Killer bullet" types of positions, they lost it. These days, on the hill, they are only perceived well by the radical Senators on the pro-gun side. And their credibility with the voting public is lessening. Correspondingly their ability to successfully lobby on behalf of legitimate gun owners is lessened.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 12:57 AM

I don't smoke, but I'll fight for your right to do so. I don't own a firearm - but I sure as hell will the day they are outlawed!

If we think Alcohol Prohibition created a huge class of lawbreakers, ie normal Americans perfectly willing to break and even laugh off the law - wait 'til firearms are outlawed. I promise you it would be the start of the second US Civil War.

I don't really fear that prohibition - I fear the slope opening that leads to it. I am afraid that pressure to regulate and legislate 'safety' or ownership requirements are disingenuous. There is no doubt in my mind that a government that wishes to oppress its population must first render it defensless. So a government like that of the USA, who face a population unwilling to give up their firearms must first apply the tourniquet of registration and regulation before it twists the tourniquet tighter and tighter. I think it's worth the fight; keep that damn tourniquet off my arm!

I just don't want to see one more personal freedom slip away. I don't know if it will happen, in my lifetime ... I hope it never happens ... and I don;t want to see it start.

Anyway - Mick, I don't suppose my comments were much for the 'bridging' notion you suggest - but at least I've stated where my side of the river is!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 12:31 AM

Interesting stuff, eh Rick & Spaw? As I told my two friends about a week ago, I am guilty of a little bating on this to see where folks would go. I also indicated that I would respond to Guest Paul's link to a very well thought out and researched article. If you haven't read it, go back to his post and do so.

I guess I wanted to see if anyone could get past the emotional and strident tit for tat responses that always come about in any discussion on this topic. A few did. Most didn't. And, IMHO, that is why this debate is never ending. Let me explain my real views.

First off, I really do own a number of guns of various types, including a handgun. I am exceedingly responsible with them, very well trained, AND my politics really are to the left of center. In fact, in most areas I am far to the left of center. BUT I do not include gun ownership in this.

My real issue is stridency in views on this, or any other topic. But let us stay with guns. In over a quarter century of political activism, there is one lesson that I am taught over and over again. No solution is possible, in a modestly democratic society, when the only voices are from the two ends of the spectrum. Reasonable solutions come when reasonable people allow the circle of their respective experiences to overlap. In other words, we cannot get reasonable solutions until the opposing sides try to wear each others moccasins.

Folks like myself, law abiding citizens who own guns, see them as a part of our heritage, and ownership as a generations old legacy passed on from generation to generation. The right to shoot is a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood. The learning to handle these weapons is much like learning to drive a car. It comes with age, signifies acceptance as an adult, and demonstrates that one has shown the maturity and intelligence to handle these weapons. The hunting and shooting stirs up memories of good times and happy hours spent with Da, Uncles, cousins and friends.

For other folks, the guns stir up different feelings. It is a parent sitting in their living room, the one place they should feel more secure than any other place, and seeing a hole appear in the wall, or a window shatter. It conjures up the cold fear that they feel when they hear the report and in a panic scramble to check if their kids are alive or the victim of a drive by shooting. All the feelings that I have never occur to this person.

That is the chasm that must be bridged, yet one would ask how is this possible. And I believe the answer is found in trying to get these two disparate groups, along with the others that have other views to talk to one another. Without the strident crap thrown in. If the parent who fears for the safety of themselves and their families could come to understand that it isn't my guns that they have to fear, it is the criminals, that would be a beginning. If folks like myself could understand the horror by folks having to worry for the basic safety of their families, that would foster understanding. But this won't happen when all that folks do is sit back and spout strident crap about 2nd amendment rights or how their is no legitimate use for guns. Neither statement is correct.

Guest Paul's article was extremely well written and full of accurate data. What is the problem with it then you might ask? Simple. It's basic predicate is that it makes the arguement that we would be better off without any guns, as if that was possible. It is not. Like it or not, guns are part of the fabric of this country. Whether we are talking legitimately owned guns, or guns used in the commission of crime, or guns used in shooting accidents..........the simple fact is that in the USA, guns have been a part of our heritage (good and bad) since its inception. And the numbers, where you can trust them, show that there is not support for the most strident positions on either side of the question.

So what am I saying? Just this. Spouting second amendment rhetoric is silly and polarizing. No court has ever upheld that position nor will they. Mouthing off about completely banning any legitimate gun ownership is a waste of time. There are too many people, like myself, that will not give up our guns because they are an important part of our lives. And because of these splits, in a democracy, it is highly unlikely that either of these positions will ever be achieved.

But this much is certain. There will be change in this society on this issue. The key for the parties is to be a part of the discussion. Those who cling to these tired old arguements on both sides of the issue will not be a part of the discussion. And that would be a shame.

One of the most interesting things to me is that as long as folks cling to these strident positions, they often end up voting for politicians who on most every other issue vote against the best interests of the same folks. That is why it is imperative that folks get to reasoned discussion without blown out of proportion stats like the Brady's use. I have met both of these folks in my travels. While they may be Republicans, they can hardly be classified as the darlings of the Republican party. Their views have made them outcasts with much of their own party.

Enough rambling.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Bert
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 11:30 PM

You make a lot of sense CB.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: leprechaun
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 11:19 PM

Will they confiscate "Dave's Insanity Sauce" in Canada? Dave's Insanity Sauce is much hotter than Tabasco sauce. It's even hotter than "Smack My Ass and Call Me Sally" sauce.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:57 PM

On that sad note, I think we all can declare this a draw.... pun intended. Merry Ho Ho.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:50 PM

I'll probably not be getting one either. Ah well...

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:44 PM

No. Ending this neverending thread !

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:34 PM

Ending the year with a bang, are you gnu? Sounds like fun to me...

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:22 PM

BANG !

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:00 PM

Hey!

I find it odd that the "left" wants guns banned and the "right" doesn't. It would seem to me that people who have a great deal to fear from an encroaching government would not want to rid themselves of their means to protect their freedoms and those who wish to encroach on people's freedoms would not want the citizenry to remain armed. OOOH! hey, maybe I got it all wrong. Maybe it is the "left" that wants to curtail our freedom and the "right" that wants to protect it.

Man, it sure can get confusing sometimes.

I belong to the NRA and I voted for Bill Clinton and supported him through both terms. How's THAT for dichotomy?

I believe that we not only have a right to bear arms but we have a duty to at least consider that we might NEED to use those arms in order to remove an unwanted government. As looney as that sounds, the people do indeed have the right to remove the governement, by force if necessary.

Of course the government has the obligation to blow us away should we exercise our right to overthrow it.

Dang I wish that Joe Offer had deleted THIS thread.

Well I gotta go, hafta go out to the Militia firing range, seems someone got a Exocet for Christmas and we're gonna do some missle drill.

Kill the thread, please!

CB

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:24 PM

You know, Rick, I almost never do this, but I'm going to do it for you right now...

LOL!!! (Especially the Charleton Heston bit.)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,rounder
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:21 PM

'Handguns are for peace officers and not civilians'... Last time I checked, police officers ARE civilians... If we lose our 2nd ammendement rights piece by piece (starting with handguns) we'll find that folk music is the least of our problems. In places where the folk were not alowed to own guns, the tyrants - the kind we like to sing about overcoming - take over and genicide prevails. Or as Mason Williams may have put it,,,"How bout them Corman Rouge ain't they Sweet? stackin dead bodies out in the street. How could they kill most every one? cuz they's the only ones had a gun! Politicaly correct folk singers need to concider the correctness of self reliance, of which self defense is a part. You are responsible for your self protection. the Police are responsible to society. Just try and file suit against the police for not protecting you if you get mugged and see what you get - a good subject for a folk song. Peace at any cost... Rounder

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:17 PM

A LITTLE SURVEY OF MUDCATTER POLITICAL ORIENTATIONS.

~S~

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:06 PM

Carol, what you didn't know was that all us Canadians DO pack heat. Tabasco Sauce is the weapon of choice. If we are confronted with a violent felon armed with a hot dog (or back bacon on a bun) we unscrew the lid and let him have it right between the buns.
These are just the "law and order" Canajuns mind you...the liberal Commie Pinko Castro luvin' ones NEVER pack a higher calibre hot sauce than HP. We've also found that instead of expensive alarm systems, a simple framed photo of Charleton Heston's cold dead hands, placed strategically in the window, sends the bad guys a runnin'.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:44 PM

Do you have to be a right wing fanatic to own a gun? I hope not, it would be a real problem for me!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 10:16 AM

I haven't seen any right wing fanatics here, Jerry. I am sure you're safe here, and your opinions welcome - even if some of us don;t agree with them all.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:29 AM

I quote Norton1's response to me:

"I think what Jed was stating is that your assumption of 33,000 children killed each year by a handgun is ludicrous. And it is ludicrous."

This is a total distortion of what I said. I said that an average of 36,000 AMERICANS, "many of them kinds," are killed each year by gun violence.

I did not say that 33,000 of those were children. Perhaps you should actually read what people say before commenting.

BTW, this thread is telling me that this is a group that I'm not sure I want to be a part of. I came here out of an interest in folk music, not to be among right wing fanatics.

Keep well and please keep your guns away from your children.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:01 AM

I pack two canisters of pepper spray at all times. Except when I'm traveling in Canada. Love carrying the pepper spray. And it's concealed, too, so I guess that makes it a concealed weapon.

Interestingly, though, I felt safer when I was in Canada without any pepper spray (confiscated at the border) than I do in the US with my pepper spray. A lot safer, in fact.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:38 AM

I don't think so. The heat you feel is from the Flaming Assholes that just posted from "Keep and Bear Arms" that just posted. Can you say "dickheads?"

Spaw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: leprechaun
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:17 AM

Does pepper spray count as heat in this survey? It's really hot.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 01:17 AM

My gawd, the paranoia right wing of Colorado Springs fame has hit the Mudcat! Quick, get all of the banjos, bazukis, bodhrans, fiddles, tiples, geetars, pipes, accordions, etc. and circle the wagons! Tune up, tune up and get ready to play!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Ann
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:41 AM

Articles appearing in The Gazette, Colorado Springs

If you think an armed neighbor is a threat to the safety of you and your loved ones, perhaps it is time to think again!

As she prepared for bed on November 18, 2000, Colorado Springs resident Jean Zamirripa heard noises – noises that sounded like someone trying to break in through her back door. Aware that a 56-year-old woman and 74-year-old woman in her neighborhood had recently been raped, the 72-year-old grandmother decided to take no chances. She retrieved the loaded .38-caliber revolver, purchased at a friend's insistence, from its hiding place beneath her bed. Barefoot and clad in her nightgown, the retired medical assistant made her way to the back of her house and braced her elbow on a countertop to steady her shaking hands. She heard the storm door open and within an instant, a man was bursting through the back door, ripping it off its molding. Full of fear, but prepared to act, Jean held her position as the intruder fell to the floor. When he at last stood up, Jean fired. Four shots rang out from her revolver, 3 of which hit their target. The intruder fled. Jean reloaded and dialed 9-1-1.

The intruder, Anthony Peralez, bleeding from two wounds to his arm and one to his abdomen made his way to his parked automobile. As he raced from the scene, he hit two parked cars and eventually came to a stop in the parking lot of a car dealership, where he was found by police and arrested.

As the investigation took shape in the ensuing days, police became aware of similarities between the invasion of Jean's home and the rapes of three other women in the Colorado Springs area, including the two rapes in Jean's neighborhood. Through DNA and other evidence, police were able to connect Peralez to those crimes and on August 22, 2001, Peralez was found guilty of 51 charges, including sexual assault. Peralez will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

Immediately following the break-in Jean told reporters, "I've always felt that homeowners should have the right to have protection. It's time people know they can defend themselves from this kind of thing. It doesn't matter where you live or how old you are. This is how the world is." Later, Jean expressed gratitude to her friend Carl Duncan for persuading her to keep a gun in her home. "Were it not for him," she said, "I might not be here."

Jean's advice to the rest of us: "The only thing I could say to anyone is you can never let your guard down … at any age."

Good advice. But Jean's story conveys so much more. Her story clearly illustrates the benefit of armed citizens – armed neighbors.

In a day and age when anti-self-defense activists are encouraging their followers to harass, shame and badger their neighbors into giving up their best means of self-defense, Jean has used that same means – a gun – to secure safety for her neighbors and her community. She has used a gun to rid her community of a terrible threat – a danger to the health, even the lives, of those living near her. How many women in Colorado Springs can rest easier because of Jean's actions? Ten? A hundred? A thousand? More?

If Jean had not had a gun, what would the outcome of her story be? Would we be reading about her brutal rape or even her murder? Would Peralez have continued to add to his list of victims? How many more? How many lives ruined? Should people like Jean continue to be vilified because they have chosen to own a firearm and are willing to use it to protect not only themselves, but their families, their neighbors, even strangers, from those who prey upon us?

Jean Zamirripa is a bona fide hero. Sgt. Rod Walker, head of the Colorado Springs Police Department's major crimes unit said of Jean, "She did everything right and kept her wits about her. She's a hero, not because she shot someone, but because of all the clear thinking and everything she did prior to the shooting." Jean's actions not only put a career criminal – a serial rapist – behind bars for good, but protected all of us from any further assaults by this scum. Anti-self-defense advocates should thank their lucky stars that people like Jean are still willing to face danger dead on and stop it. They should thank her for doing what they cannot, or will not, do – take responsibility for the protection of themselves and their loved ones.

I have but one question for the anti-rights activists: If Jean Zamirripa had not had a gun and had not been willing to use it for lawful self-defense, who would Peralez have targeted next? You, your mother, your daughter? If you think an armed neighbor is a threat to your safety, perhaps it is time to think again. Your life may depend upon it!

http://www.keepandbeararms.com

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Dan Dall
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:34 AM

The 83,000,000 lawful gun owners of the United States of America are not the bad guys; we are the good guys, and we refuse to lay down and be disarmed.

Let's make full use of a virtual forum on this web site to establish and facilitate a coordinated and combined force effort to cease this cultural war being waged against the lawful citizens of America. Let's establish a command central via the web.

It is time to unite the force of those vast numbers that are out there but have been very much disjointed to this point. For firearms owners and groups who do not have the web-technical means to pull such a forum together on their own.

Dan Dall

[e-mail]
http://www.keepandbeararms.com

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:27 AM

Just a note: Jerry did say from "gun violence" not just from "accidents."

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:03 AM

I used the stats from a 1995 National Center for Health Statistics report and did a littel math. The point I wished to make was very simply that there are many many ways that accidents take the lives of our children every day - and in truth, firearms accidents are among the very lowest. The firearm accidental deaths, as sad as they are have been a low percentage, and have steadily decreased over the years. They are among the lowest type of accidents counted. To consider curtail my constitutional rights as a result of these few accidental deaths is ludicrous - as I said, the accidental death rate for children from firearms is about as low as the accidental death rate from medical practice accidents. I don't hear anyone talking about stopping medical practice for children.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:44 PM

Well Jerry - I have taken enough statistic's classes to know that they are all skewed to the statistician's view. And yes - even the Health Department skews them.

I think what Jed was stating is that your assumption of 33,000 children killed each year by a handgun is ludicrous. And it is ludicrous. During our years in Viet Nam we lost about 8,000 troops each year, that is an average as during 1968 we lost a bit more, and total losses from the war came to roughly 60,000. Now I don't know about you but I remember that during the war everyone knew someone who had a family member killed during the war.

So let us extrapolate a bit. If we lost 33,000 kids each year wouldn't each and every person in this thread know at leat one dead kid? Well we don't. It may not be statistically correct but it is reality. And your 33,000 is pulled from total deaths (assuming that is true) each year - not just kids.

So let's go to the other extreme. The NRA, bless their souls, says that there are well over a half million crimes that aren't committed due to firearm ownership. Now where did they get that one? If the crime wasn't committed how did we know?

It's the same with domestic violence, child abductions, and a host of other extremist versions of the truth that give us the "Oh my God!! Let's add another worthless law to our overburdened system." folks.

Stand up for your convictions - but get real about your stats, your mission, and your purpose.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST, - Logged out, to remain anon
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:09 PM

I assign the same level of probability to the need for citizens to arm themselves against the powers that be, as I assign to the citizens needing to arm themselves again against the Redcoats attacking....

Make of that what you will in the context of this thread..

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Artemis
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:31 PM

I would like to see all citizens be required to have the same training and psychological tests as our peace officers, in order to carry a gun. I would want those tests to be yearly and to cost appropriately.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:44 PM

As far as some of us are concerned, Loopy (good choice there) the White House has been taken over by religious zealots.

Oh, and, I've never been to Berkley, never had a stash, have no ticks, and would have no problem loading, aiming and firing a rifle. So...if you don't want to be labelled as a right-wing militia, mountain-man-crazy gun-nut, maybe we can dispense with the generalisations.

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 05:53 PM

Some observations, thoughts, opinions, etc.

The second leading cause of death for "young people"? Again, tell me that this 1994 statistic doesn't include criminal youths shooting each other or getting shot in battles with police, and I'll listen. Until then, it's just a distorted government-created stat at a time when the government wasn't too high on the concept of individuals' rights.

It's illegal to possess a gun in Washington D.C. Ask someone there what the murder rate is lately. (Guess what? They're not beating each other to death with garbage can lids!) It's illegal to possess a gun in Australia. Ask someone in Victoria how well that law has worked. (Hint: The murder rate there jumped 400% the first year the law was in effect.)

Under Clinton's Justice Department, The rate of prosecutions for Federal gun crimes dropped by over 40%. But it's not about enforcing the laws already on the books (of which there are hundreds, if not thousands); It's about government having total authority over people, and about criminals having the right to your personal property.

A last thought: Over 170 million people were murdered by the hands of their own governments in the past century. What's the first thing the government did in each case before the "cleansing" began? They disarmed the public. And it makes sense, really. It's easier to kill someone who disagrees with your policies when they're not shooting back. And remember, every person to whom it happened probably thought "It could never happen in MY country". Feel free to label this as right-wing militia, mountain-man-crazy gun-nut talk. You'd be wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion. I don't like "wings", I prefer breasts and thighs. I do sometimes wonder how quickly the left would change its mind about disarming the public if a nut-job like Pat Robertson or Pat Buchanan or Jerry Falwell ever managed to connive their way into the White House, and the Senate chambers overflowed with religious zealots. Remember, the government is our friend...We don't need guns, because the government is there to take care of us... I have to admit I would find it hillarious, patriotic, and ironic to see some tick-infested Berkley Hippie Relic trying to figure out which end of a rifle to fire as the troops marched in to take him prisoner and burn his stash. Ok, my blood sugar's low enough for the afternoon. Hope this has been entertaining and educational to some extent...

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:33 PM

Jed,

According to the Center for Disease Contorls website,

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/fafacts.htm

firearm injuries were the second leading cause of death for young people in 1994.

If 1994 is typical, and I would assume that it is, then your stats would seem to be wrong.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 04:24 PM

Thank you, Jerry, and MMario.

Robomatic, just curious if you have anything on hand now that you are living in Alaska? None of my business, if you don't want to answer that's fine, just wondering if your perceptions etc. have changed or not.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 02:18 PM

LoopySanchez,

The statistics quoted by the Brady Campaign come from the National Center for Health Statistics.

The Brady Campaign is headed by Jim Brady, former press secretary to President Reagan, and his wife Sarah. As prominent Republicans, they are hardly "liberals."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: MMario
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 02:05 PM

some statistics on drowning and near drowning in children here

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 01:45 PM

"8,998 deaths" from "Unknown Causes"? The Brady Campaign wouldn't be one to pad their stats to support an agenda, now would they? They're the same ones who count 19 year-old gang members shot by police after brandishing weapons or by rival gang members as "Children killed by handguns". That's how you get "30 children a day killed by handguns". It's a quite effective tool the liberals use to try to accomplish many goals.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 12:42 PM

I think this is a great thread, and we even got a song posted. I am a relatively liberal guy from the East Coast but I now live in Alaska which is kinda like Montana with an edge and lots of deep southern influence both in the flavor of Christianity and the ways of weapons.

One theme I hear again and again, and mostly subscribe to. The police are good at record-keeping and searching out the accused. They can't be everywhere. In a case of home invasion, the only help you're going to get is the help on hand, which is often the help you can put IN your hand.

Going back to my pre-Alaska days, I remember a hiking trip with an Englishman who, if I'm stating his observation accurately, said that the average Englishman, if not European, had a self-image of unimportance relative to society or the 'state'. This is not meant to be derogatory, the sense is that the average European doesn't seeing himself or herself making a difference. The average American had a much greater self image relative to the state, that he/she could make a difference, in fact, that there are cases where you have no one to rely on but yourself.

I'm not claiming the above is correct, neither was my English friend. He was making an observation on self perception. To finish it off, the average American was much more willing to take on the life-and-death issues that come with personal firearms as an individual question than those across the pond. And this willingness is more or less embraced by us as a society and even celebrated in the movies.

I wonder how our Canadian neighbors fit into the mix? I suspect they watch most of the activities south of the border in a state of severe bemusement.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:43 AM

katlaughing,

From: http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=289

"Statistics on total U.S. gun deaths (including suicides and unintentional shootings), as compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics, have only been collected since 1979. But between 1979 and 1997, 651,697 Americans lost their lives to gun violence, including 334,870 suicides, 278,865 homicides, 28,964 unintentional shootings, and 8,998 from unknown causes."

1979-1997 is 18 years. 651,697 over 18 years is an average of more than 99 per year, what I described as "about 100."

I have no idea where Jed Marum's statistics come from.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:17 AM

Would you both please cite your sources for the statistics stated? Thanks.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:10 AM

P.S. I don't know why even the most vociferous of gun supporters would find it absurd to abhor needless death,

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 11:07 AM

Jed,

I quoted the well-known statistic that, on average, 36,000 Americans, many of them children, die every year from gun violence.

I pointed out that that annual death rate was about 10 times that of the traguc World Trade Center murders.

I said that all of those deaths were "such a waste."

You then describe my comment as "absurd."

Absurd? I'm sorry, but I don't consider it absurd to abhor needless death.

BTW, I consider all of the accidental deaths due to the causes that you mention to be a great waste as well.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM

Well Boy Wonder, let's put your absurd comments into statistical perspective. About 30 times as many children will die this year from car accidents as from firearm accidents ... about 11 times as many will accidentally drown ... about 10 times as many will die in fires ... 3 times as many will choke to death on swallowed objects ... and about as many children who die from medical practice accidents will die from firearm accidents.

Maybe we should ban the practice of medicine too.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:20 AM

See FAQ thread, top of list. Line breaks explained, and more.

~S~

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:38 AM

????

Why did the lines in the song run into each other? At least the verses were separated.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:35 AM

This song by Joel Mabus is on his CD called "Six of One." I think that Joel makes an important point that *anyone* can snap at anytime. God help anyone who's around when someone with a gun, even a normally rational, safe and well intentioned person, snaps. It happens often in America and thousands of us die every year because of it.

A Virus On The Town

There's a story going round
About a virus on the town
It can strike at anytime or anyone
How your hand goes to your heart
When you hear the first report
Somebody snapped, somebody got a gun

In the schoolyard - in the office
In the church or on a train
Here we go, here we go again
Interview the neighbors, the lovers and the friends
The characters keep changing but the story never ends

Call the doctors - call the priest
Call the counselors of grief
Point the camera at the man who wears the frown
For the camera will not tell
Anything it cannot sell
And the headline is - a virus on the town

In a famine or a feast
It's the nature of the beast
To prey upon the weak and the diseased
Now there's an odor in the air
You can smell it everywhere
The taste of gun smoke on the breeze

And the fingers point to Hollywood
It's a storyteller's crime
Oh, the lobbyists are working overtime
For the ammunition makers
And the congressmen they buy
They're selling you "protection" and the pistols multiply

There's a virus on the land
You can hold it in your hand
You can fill the chamber with another round
You can pull the hammer back
And prepare for the attack
There's no safety with a virus on the town.

line breaks added by
- el joeclone -

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: jaze
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 03:54 PM

I've never touched a gun and hope I never do. It's a right I choose not to exercise. The only time I saw some sense in it was when the population of Kosovo was forced from their homeland. I realized that could NEVER happen here! To each his own. James

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: leprechaun
Date: 22 Dec 01 - 06:21 PM

Just to help that nice fellow bareArms with his survey:

I wear a gun on my hip all day every day at work. I wear one most of time when I'm not at work. It plays hell with my sciatic nerve sometimes, but that gives me a great excuse to importune somebody for a butt and leg massage. I can't count the number of people I have pointed my gun at over the last 17 years. But I've never had to put any pressure on the trigger outside of the range. The closest I came was when a large fellow picked me up and threw me through a fence. My wig fell off. Then he was on top of me trying to hit me. He was drunk, and lucky for both of us, not very effective. I just held my gun away from him and blocked with my elbows until my partner arrived with his flashlight.

Last week I was preparing plans for a search warrant and I got a paper cut. There's danger everywhere.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 22 Dec 01 - 01:37 PM

Assuming statistical averages of the recent past are steady, since the beginning of this thread on December 18, approximately 400 Americans, many of them children, many of them accidental, have died from gun violence.

About 100 Americans die every day from gun violence. That's more than 36,000 over the course of a year. The annual death count is about 10 times that of the World Trade Center terrorist murders.

Such a waste.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 03:18 PM

"Holy holy holy war God's right hand was in the car That shook the church, shopping mall."

Threads like this one suck.

Preaching to the choir.

We in the USA live in a diferent world. Very few can comprehend how much different than: England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. We speak the same language (sorta) but then the similarity starts to unravel.

Wyoming is not Chicago (thank God!) is not rural Missouri is not the (San Francisco) Bay Area is not Alabama is not Wisconsin. So the differences begin to show up even within our borders. As tiresome as the old bumper sticker is(Guns don't kill people, people kill people) it is true. Here in lovely, peaceful, rural Franklin County Missouri we have had four murders committed by edged weapon and only one by firearm (in the last year). No firearm related accidental shootings fatal or otherwise. Three suicides, one by firearm and over 90 vehicular deaths. Our population here in Franklin County is just under 50,000 and we are the second largest county in area, in the state of Missouri. Everyone I know (and a great many I don't) owns firearms. Not one or two but numerous firearms. The state of Missouri requires all citizens who apply for a hunting license to take a hunting safety course and PASS it before they are issued a hunting permit. The course deals with firearm (and archery) safety in the field, in transportation and at home. Here in Franklin county we rarely have discussions about firearms except about what might be the best turkey gun or something like that. The only time we talk about gun ownership, banning of guns, gun rights, the second amendment, etc. is when it gets some play in the big city (St. Louis) press or on TV. I don't know of anyone who is irresponsible about firearms. I have never heard of or seen any incident involving firearms. For those of you in the UK: you have a long history of un-armed law enforcement personnel. This certainly used to work very well. I have heard that there are more and more officers being trained in the use of firearms and being required to carry them than before. You also have some very strict gun laws. It seems that you are experiencing an increase in gun-related criminal activity even as you implement tougher sanctions. As WE (NRA members, gun owners) see it, strict gun control will not have a positive effect on deterring crime. Private ownership of firearms is not a deterrent to crime, don't misunderstand me. The thought of thousands of armed "muggles" being ready to blaze away at intruders is truly scary. But the prohibition of firearms has created a source of income for the criminally inclined. WE in the USA learned this the hard way with the prohibition of alcohol. It is still a lesson to be learned as regards to "controlled substances". Prohibit something and you have created a lucrative market for the prohibited item.

I have carried concealed and un-concealed both (legally). I have had training for police reserves. I have taught a simple handgun safety course for armed guards when I was an employment supervisor for Pinkerton's.

While this all may seem strange to you who live over the water, it's fairly normal here and I really don't see that it deserves all the blather it has stirred up.

Let the Flamers go elsewhere and lets write of music, please!

thanx CB

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:30 PM

Greg, I think we may have a case of misunderstanding here. Threads about controversial issues often wind up with folks just looking for an excuse to jump on someone else. When I re-read your comments, you seemed to be talking about folks with a certain mind-set. What's missing is you saying those comments applied to everyone who owned a gun or thought others should. If the mind-set doesn't apply to you, the comments don't either. The "bubbas, rednecks, and conservative politicians" bit sounds like it refers to those who resist any gun control/safety legislation, and I'd be willing to bet even gun owners differ wildly in their opinions on that issue.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:14 PM

Jeri-

Actually, I made a statement about bubbas, rednecks, and conservative politicians. How you, Mick, or anyone else chooses to interpret that statement is your problem, not mine!
The "pry it from my cold, dead hands" syndrome is only one-and not necessarily the main- component of "bubba-ism", "redneck-ism" and/or conservatism.

I'm not arguing with anyone- just responding to random potshots taken at me personally.

As for your 'stereotypes' comment, though its none of your bloody business, I'll make you a present of the fact that I was a life member of the NRA for many years & turned my membership card in & told them what they could do with it about the same time Bush Senior did (one of the few decent gestures he's ever made)- after the organization veered hopelessly to the right and forgot its basic principles and purposes.

Regards, Greg

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 10:08 AM

I voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and drive an old Ford pickup with a rifle rack in the back window. It has a cowboy rope, a rifle, and a spotlight hanging off of it. I wear cowboy boots, have worn blue jeans all of my life, think the Grand Old Opry was one of the finest entertainment centers ever on radio and early TV, and play much more country than I do folk. I tip my hat to the ladies, open doors for them too, salute the Flag of the United States, know the words to the Naitonal Anthem and all 5 verses to America the Beautiful. I believe in the right of free speech, defending those who can't (in the words of my friend PJ "De Oppresso liber"), and know that many things worth everything can't be bought.

I believe that friendship is all that is really worth anything, music is the heart and soul of love, and that a red neck means you work in the great outdoors. I believe in God, but don't go to church, I believe in gatherings, but rarely participate with more than a handful of friends, I fought for my country, and grieve for my friends. I fit Jeff Foxworthy's definition of a redneck and yet find myself on both ends of the spectrum - neither liberal or conservative - somewhere in the middle sphere. Oriented, confused, full of life, and been refered to as "Bubba" by those that don't know me very well.

There is no defining one's position. We are all of that great mass called humanity. And our positions shift from day to day and situation to situation. Some of us carry guns and some don't - some of us worry about trivial crap and some of us worry about nothing. I Thank the Good Lord that I live in a place that gives me the right to make choices about these things and to argue with others about it. I think it helps me clarify my position when I enter the debate on what is correct and what is not. My mind may not get changed but it certainly provides me with food for thought. I certainly enjoy the views of others from places so much different from mine as they have a historical litany that prescribes a different way of thinking and feeling about things I take for granted.

You all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Steve (Who thinks he may be more Bubba than whatever the alternative is - *BG*)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Peter T.
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 09:03 AM

Hads anyone noticed that Pete Seeger carries a dangerous and unconcealed weapon with an aggressive slogan? Surely something should be done about this.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 08:46 AM

If a person believes X, they must also believe Y...
Folks get the idea of what a "liberal" looks like from what the media feeds to them, and when a person has ideas that don't fit your personal stereotype, the person gets accused of being messed up?! If you find yourself accusing someone of not fitting your image of what they should be, maybe it's your image of them that isn't accurate. Maybe you should be asking yourself where that image came from, and whether there are facts to support it.

Greg, you made a generalization about gun owners and said Mick "can't prove the statement universally untrue by citing a single exception." Would you care to offer proof that your generalization is true?

If you're arguing with Mick because he doesn't believe what you think he should believe, maybe your stereotype really doesn't fit everybody you think it ought to.

...and I'm another "exception."

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 08:14 AM

M.Ted, I'm thinking the movie to which you refer is "Rio Bravo," with John Wayne, Dean Martin, Ricky Nelson, and Walter Brennan.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 07:24 AM

Well, OK, Mick- if you want to play classroom games for a course in Logic 101. By the same token you can't prove the statement universally untrue by citing a single exception.

You didn't go to a Jesuit school, by any chance, did you?

Best of the Holidays to you-

Greg

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 01:51 AM

Jerry, I apologize for the smart ass nature of my comment. Happens sometimes and I usually regret it. I am sorry for the characterization, it is obviously off target. As to the substance of the point I was making, I stand by it. You made the point that you see nothing leftist in my politics. On that issue you are incorrect. But the larger point is that the gun issue gets so weighed down in the rhetoric that people make these type of generalizations. The only thing that you could have possibly drawn from the posts here is that when it comes to my right to own weapons, I am firmly in the corner of the maintaining that right. And most of the so called logic on the subject isn't logical at all.

Greg.........you demonstrate my point again. I said clearly that my comment wasn't about my thinking you were talking about me specifically. You made the follwing comment "Its the bubbas, rednecks & conservative politicians who need to be brought into the 20th century, never mind the 21st. That comment is a gratuitous assertion. All one needs to do is show one example of it being wrong to disprove it. I used myself to demonstrate to you that it is an incorrect statement. I then followed up with explaining to you that, within the context of the discussion it doesn't matter if you like me or I like you. Your statement was simply incorrect. As are most generalizations.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 12:27 AM

It is a sociological study to watch the responces - after Joe said, "This is a troll thread."

The "Reality" is... the MC.... slowly, ever so slowly, is becoming a TROLL HAVEN!!!!

Poor Max is not to blame, the paterns were developed six years before "he" sought his fame.

IF IT AIN'T FOLK Or Divorce It don't belong!!!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Dec 01 - 12:11 AM

I remember that from an old movie, Kat, I don't remember the name of it, but I saw it many times on TV in my youth--

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:00 PM

Say, this guy could be a buddy of Mick....from Michigan and all.............Check him out!!!

Spaw....just trying to lighten this one up because there won't be any agreements or mind changing here.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:45 PM

Big Mick,

My comments were not a personal attack so I fail to understand why you responded to my comments by trying to ridicule me? I did say that my observations were solely based on this discussion.

Anyway, I hope you have a nice Christmas,

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:31 PM

gnu, my old history book on Casper is packed away and in storage, so I cannot tell you about whether the citizens did or not. Probably not, as the law may have been of their doing, an attempt to cut down on the rowdiness of cowboys coming to town after a long time out on the range. I'll ask Rog if he remembers, when he gets home.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:05 PM

kat... everyone ? Even those who lived there ?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jock Morris
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:05 PM

MMario,

I don't have the statistics to hand , but it was widely reported in the media here within the last couple of weeks. Channel 4 did a documentary on the reasons behind the increase (mainly drug related crime) just last week.

Scott

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: MMario
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:52 PM

Another interesting fact is that the incidence of armed crime in the UK has gone up since handguns were banned. Another indication that the change in the law failed to achieve the stated aim of increasing public safety.

Anyone have statistics on this?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:51 PM

Just one note to M.Ted, there was more gun control in the old West than some may think. Here, in Casper, at one time, it was the law that one had to check their firearms in at the sheriff's office for as long as they were in town. Saved a lot of barroom brawls from becoming even more deadly.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: gnu
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:49 PM

M.Ted hit the nail on the head. I would like to see more done to deter crime and to rehabilitate criminals. That includes raising the standard of living for a great number of our populace.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:41 PM

I'd suggest that those who wish to rant at each other on a personal level take it to the PM channel. I find it works much better - And for once I agree with Guest - time to put a bullet in this thing's head.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:32 PM

Jesus, Mick-
Do you think yourself so fucking important that my comment HAD to be about YOU PERSONALLY? All you 'demonstrated' is that you don't feel the comment applies to you. Get a grip.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gary T
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 01:33 PM

Place yourself above other people? For some sad souls, perhaps.

Prevent violent immoral people from injuring or killing you and your loved ones is probably more accurate for the overwhelming majority of legal gun carriers.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Airto
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:43 PM

A person carrying a gun is making a statement, even if only to themselves, "if someone pushes me far enough I can kill them on the spot".

Isn't the purpose of that to place yourself above other people?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 11:04 AM

One fact that no one wants to deal with is that there was a time when guns were not very much regulated, and gun related violence(and all types of violence) was fairly low--Demands for gun control, and gun laws were called for when violent crime(not all gun related) began to increase--they haven't solved the problem--

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 10:27 AM

Paul, thanks very much for the article link!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,jockmorris
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 10:04 AM

Jane 2001,

Thomas Hamilton (he of the Dunblane Massacre) obtained his firearms and retained his firearms because the police failed to do basic checks on his application form and failed to follow the advice of one of their own officers. When applying for his license to own full-bore handguns he claimed to be a member of a shooting club in Hamilton (you have to prove you have an approved place to use the weapons you own). This should have stopped him getting the weapons on two counts: firstly, he wasn't a member of the club and secondly, the club wasn't approved for full-bore pistols. The club in question is run by the police social club in Hamilton, so it should have been easy for the police to check whether he was a member.

When his licence came up for renewal (about a year before the massacre) the police constable who interviewed him as part of the renewal process recommended to his superiors that the application be refused as he did not believe he was a fit person to hold a firearm; his superiors overruled him and granted the application.
To me it seems very clear that the police were negligent in their duties and the problem is not with the vast majority of gun club members.
Personally speaking, I was quite happy when full-bore handguns were banned in the UK as I fail to see where they fit into the sport of shooting as a test of accuracy and discipline. When New Labour gained power and banned small-bore handguns I feel they made a big mistake. Many of the shooters who had to surrender .22 pistols now legally own .22 semi-auto sport rifles, which are more accurate than the pistols they replace and almost as easy to carry about. In other words, if the aim of the law was to increase public safety then it failed. However, I believe Labour made that law as a political statement rather than for safety.
Another interesting fact is that the incidence of armed crime in the UK has gone up since handguns were banned. Another indication that the change in the law failed to achieve the stated aim of increasing public safety.
Sorry for the length of this post, but a raw nerve was touched.

Scott

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:55 AM

Let's turn our thoughts to the things that should be most important to us at this time of year.

Yes! Yes! Like what we're gittin' for Christmas!

I still want a collapsed-antimatter-BB gun!

Peter.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:53 AM

Lighten up, Greg. Your age is showing. You made what is known as a gratuitous assertion. I demonstrated in my response that your assertion is false. Standard debate tactic. I am being neither nice, nor am I being not nice. I am simply responding to your assertion. Whether you remain nice or not means nothing to me in the context of the discussion.

The trouble with the boy wonder's observation is that he attempts to categorize my politics on the basis of this discussion. My guess is that because he lacks the ability to adequately defend his positions using facts, figures and cogent arguments, he then falls back to ridicule or the type of comment he made. It's like this, wonderboy. My politics are way left of center in most areas. Environmentally, womens rights, labor law, trade law, Indigenous peoples rights, universal health insurance.........these are all issues that I have worked on the left side of the spectrum all my life. I would agree with you that Gore's positions on many issues is very centrist. But I am a pragmatic leftist. I know that the Tom Harkins of the world can't be elected. And so I choose the most electable candidate from my side of the spectrum.

PAUL, great article!! And I will respond when I have more time. I just popped in for a quick morning check in. I did a fast read of it and found it to be well researched. But I don't know if I buy into the predicate upon which they base several of their arguments. I will respond in a day or so. I wonder if you could tell me the organization or person that authored it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:26 AM

Well, I'm sorry that I allowed myself into this thread as it was obviously started to get the sort of reaction that it has. I had vowed to stay away from this sort of thread, so I'm out. Let's turn our thoughts to the things that should be most important to us at this time of year.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:14 AM

Mick-

I don't believe I called YOU a bubba or a conservative or for that matter brought you personally into my comment at all. Be nice if you'd return the favor.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 08:01 AM

Actually, Mick is so leftist that I appear to be a center-right leaning individual.

Regards -

Pete

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jerry Dingleman: The Boy Wonder(inactve)
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 07:27 AM

Big Mick wrote:

"I am a left wing union organizer. My politics in most every area are very much on the left side of the political spectrum. I was also the State Director of the Gore Campaign in the last Presidential election. I am not a Bubba, or a conservative. And I own guns. And I am VERY well trained. I shoot them for fun as well."

If you examine the left-right political continuum, you will find that Al Gore is a centrist on some issues and somewhat to the right of center on most others. What is considered "liberal" in the USA, is usually on the right wing side of the fence in almost all other industrialized democracies. Look north to Canada or across the pond to Great Britain, for example, and you will see that such policies as socialized medicine for everyone, considered far left in the USA, is an inviolable right.

Canada's far right party, the Canadian Alliance, wouldn't dream of proposing the kind of right wing welfare laws passed by the Clinton-Gore administration.

Big Mick, I'm sure you a sincere individual. However, based on what you've written in this discussion, I can see nothing leftist about your politics.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 06:50 AM

Thanks Susan!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 06:20 AM

Mick said: Instead of telling us your opinions on our right to bear arms, why don't you try giving me substantiated fact as to what you think the gain is. Let us debate facts instead of your emotional opinions.

See this article

Paul

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Bo
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 05:18 AM

In an effort to sum up this discussion:


I demand the right to carry IRELAND.

I know Ireland is a sore subject with people as is gun control but I think if I'm responsible and dont Euthanize anyone I should be allowed to pack Ireland.

Of course I would be willing to get the necessary permits.

My reasons:

1. Its a lot smaller than the country I live in, Canada. 2. It would allow me to pack all the peat I personally need.
3. For my tastes it would make MP3s obsolete
4. Its full of little people.
5. I would make myself available to come over to all mudcaters for christmas and share. You supply the munchies and I'll bring Ireland.

BO ;)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: fox4zero
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 04:26 AM

I own about a dozen handguns and have a full-carry permit for these. Most are target or hunting weapons from .22 RF to .44 magnum. The only times I carried a loaded handgun was during my 3-year tour as a flight surgeon in Alaska during the territory days.

I believe that carrying a handgun is looking for trouble.I have been held up once,leaving my office at night. It was a young couple in a car with a .25 auto and bandanas over the lower 1/2 of their faces. I suggested that they "beat it" (adrenaline talking) and they did. I was a little shaken and carried a .38 S&W for a week afterwards, to and from work. After a week I was my old self again (very depresssing!)and put the gun back in the gun vault.

I thank God that I was not carrying that night!!! I would not like to see the contents of that boys head splattered all over the inside of the car, every night before I fell asleep for the rest of my life.

Early on, someone suggested a handgun as a self-defense home weapon for an inexperienced woman. I think that a .410 pump is a far better choice....less flinching in target practice, better odds for a lethal or non-lethal hit and limited bullet travel through walls etc.

Lighten up Mudcatters. Make love, not war.

Larry

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 01:36 AM

Point worth considering for our British and Canadian friends: Private ownership of firearms in what is now the US has been a fact of life even longer than it has been a right on this part of the North American continent. We're talking centuries at this point. This in and of itself doesn't make it right or wrong, but may help explain why those of us who peacefully and responsibly exercise that right are reticent to give it up. In many, if not most states, we law-abiding citizens have to (figuratively speaking) jump through a number of legislated hoops in order to purchase and oftimes register firearms. Criminals aren't bothered with such annoyances. An interesting aside; I have been researchng my own family history for most of my life. I can account for each branch of my family back to around 1650 at this point. Each branch of this family tree has consistently owned and used firearms. Usually for hunting. Frequently for self-defense. Many times in war (including the American Revolution, American Civil War (both sides), Spanish-American War, WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the middle east, etc.). There has not been a single case of death or injury caused accidentally through misuse. There has been no random violence involving guns. On both sides of my family, guns have been treated as valuable, potentially lethal tools. We don't carry them to church, school, daycare, bars, etc. Much was said following the Columbine school tragedy about how we needed to not allow guns in schools. Many were surprised to learn such laws were already on the books. The real weirdness of that story was that the perpetrators' parents hadn't noticed or dealt with their sons' activities, many of which were carried out at home. Guns and bombs and certain videos in your kid's room should be a clue that all is not well.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:19 AM

AAAAaaaaah GEEEEEEZ!!!

Here we go AGAIN!!??

Merry Quanza, everybody!

(Maybe next time...) };^{)~

UJ in ME, USA

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: ddw
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:15 AM

Doesn't somebody have to go make him cold and dead first? Geeez! We could be tied up on this for days!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM

Now, if we can just get a volunteer to go un-wrap gargoyle's cold dead fingers, I think we got us a free gun!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Dec 01 - 12:01 AM

Pretty good observation, kat. My understanding of this statistic is that it is a rate per 1000 of population. I will dig it up and post.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:58 PM

Mick said, If you look at the relationship between violent crime and gun laws, you will find that in states where the gun laws are very strict, they have a much higher violent crime rate. Where the laws are less strict and law abiding citizens have the right to carry, the violent crime rate is much lower.

I am not saying this is fact, because I don't know, but it could be because the states with stricter gun laws have many times more people in them, so the percentages get skewed. For instance, we have less than 500,000 people in the whole state of Wyoming, that's about 90,000 square miles. Seems to me we'd be bound to have a lower violent crime rate just because there aren;t as many of us.

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:49 PM

SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO ARM BEARS!!!

You can take my gun
After you un-wrap my cold dead fingers around it.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:42 PM

I'm damned proud to be a Canadian where I'm protected by laws that won't allow the vast majority of us to own weapons that are designed only for killing.

Then...if I've fired off thousands of rounds over a lifetime, and never killed anything that I know of...I must be missing the whole point?!?

Oh, damn, damn, damn.....

Peter

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:22 PM

Sorry, Greg F, but you have it all wrong. I am a left wing union organizer. My politics in most every area are very much on the left side of the political spectrum. I was also the State Director of the Gore Campaign in the last Presidential election. I am not a Bubba, or a conservative. And I own guns. And I am VERY well trained. I shoot them for fun as well.

Get your facts straight folks. If you look at the relationship between violent crime and gun laws, you will find that in states where the gun laws are very strict, they have a much higher violent crime rate. Where the laws are less strict and law abiding citizens have the right to carry, the violent crime rate is much lower.

But this really comes down to this. Law abiding citizens have had a right to keep and bear arms of all sorts in this country since its inception. In order to take away that right from law abiding citizens, one should be able to produce factual information/data to support the reason it should be taken away. No one has done that yet. It is all emotion and no logic.

Instead of telling us your opinions on our right to bear arms, why don't you try giving me substantiated fact as to what you think the gain is. Let us debate facts instead of your emotional opinions.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: ddw
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:16 PM

LEJ,

Bit of a logical jump there, eh?

Big Daddy said: "If all firearms magically disappeared and were then outlawed everywhere in the world, there'd be people building them in basements and garages and caves all over the world."

How do you get from that to "are most of you Canadians fabricating handguns on your workbenches?"

Nobody said anything about "most people," only that people, implying "some people" would build them in their basements and garages.

Seems like a reasonable statement to me. I know quite a few people with the tools and technical knowhow (I live in an automotive city) to make pretty sophisticated weapons and, if they weren't available from any other source, you can bet somebody would be running a cottage industry making them.

That said, I might also point out that it's not even that difficult to make an effective weapon. Ever seen a zip-gun?

For our Brit friends trying to get their heads around this debate, I would also not that until the 1970s virtually every male American was drafted into the military for a few years and received weapons training of some kind.

I'm pretty convinced that that lack of training after the draft was ended is responsible for a lot of the accidental shootings that everybody decries and a more cavalier attitude toward what a handgun can do.

Add to that the "training" kids get from video games (kill, kill, kill, kill) and you get a Columbine High mentality. That alone is enough to make me want to carry a weapon in a lot of places.....

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:06 PM

John, "proselytization" is where one a**hole tries to get another a**hole to quit being the kind of a**hole they already are... and tries to get them to be the same kind of a**hole they are, for vaguely stated reasons based on that particular form of a**holism... and in such a fashion that all that is glorified is how much of an a**hole they (both) are.

IMO.

Thanks for asking! Love ya!

~S~

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:27 PM

The Constitutional arguments regarding all of the Bill of Rights are completely tied to interpretations of the document in regards to the time it was written and whether or not that stricture should be considered.

Take any of the amendments and you'll find people on one side of the issue using the "times" argument IF it suits their purpose. What I find most interesting is that the same person may argue it as being relevant on one and not relevant on another.

In the final analysis the Constitution is interpreted by politics and money......and that's just the simple fact. Arguing the "right" of any Right under that condition is an exercise in futility at best and more like mental masturbation.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:18 PM

I think it's about time to put a bullet in the head of this sorry-ass thread. I've enjoyed all I can stand.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:17 PM

Its the bubbas, rednecks & conservative politicians who need to be brought into the 20th century, never mind the 21st.

And Stanley knives are now recognised terrorist paraphernalia, so don't be caught with one lest you be hauled in front of a military tribunal...

Greg

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big John
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:29 PM

Those who shout loudest in defence of your right to bear arms are the politicians who are in the pockets of the arms manufacturing parasites. These guys run a multi billion dollar industry and will pay well to be allowed to remain in business. Your constituional amendment was written at a time when it was necessary for the general public to bear arms in defence of your nation. It is now obselete and your constitution should be brought into the 21st century.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:28 PM

What is proselytization?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:19 PM

I guess another myth bites the dust.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Steve Latimer
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:11 PM

LEJ,

I've lived all 42 years of my life in Canada. I've never seen a handgun other than the ones that the Police carry. Yes, they're out there, but handguns in Canada are owned by two groups, outlaws, with whom I don't associate, and the police that we pay to keep them in line. I don't live in the fear that one of my children will accidently kill themself or their sibling with the "family Gun". I trust the police to keep me safe. I know of nobody fabricating guns on their workbench.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:56 PM

Hey SteveL, just wondering. BigDaddy said if guns were banned, people would be building them in garages...are most of you Canadians fabricating handguns on your workbenches?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:55 PM

Just a couple of thoughts from this UK person (who has handled and shot a couple of hand guns and rifles but found it boring)...

I'm always puzzled by the firearms to protect your property - to the best of my knowledge, most robbers over here are not armed. It seems to me that if everyone had guns to protect thier property, more robbers would carry guns to protect themselves from being shot... Seems like a bit of a pointless viscious circle to me and one that is only likely to lead to needless deaths on both sides. Besides that, on a personal level, everything I own is insured and can be replaced - well nearly everything - some items have a sentimental value which is important but still rather less in my value scales than a human life.

Jon

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Steve Latimer
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:43 PM

You know, once again, I'm damned proud to be a Canadian where I'm protected by laws that won't allow the vast majority of us to own weapons that are designed only for killing.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,manitas at home
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:19 PM

Funnily enough, the real problem in the UK is knives. You can get them easily anywhere 'tho shops aren't supposed to sell them to minors. I'm beginning to wonder if I should keep the knives I have (multi-purpose for box repair jobs, m'lud) more handy or go back to carrying a music stand (bloody heavy when handled right) or perhaps a walking stick.

I was going to make a quip about packing Deep Heat but the discussions got too serious for that.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 06:46 PM

OK, let's just have a free for all on the same old same old.

Abortion!

Guns!

Proselytization!

Ireland!

Nazi's!

Antisemitism!

Sexism!

Violent Teens!

Bad parents!

PERNENNIAL, UBIQUITOUS, IRRECONCILABLE VICTIMS OF EVERYTHING!

Censorship!

The press!

Affirmative action!

RIGHTS, RIGHTS, RIGHTS!!!!!!!

Controlling people....

Hoo-ee!! Nothing good going on to focus on, let's have at it! Wallow! Roll around in it! Spread as much of it as possible, as far as you can!!!

Merry Christmas.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 06:45 PM

I don't know what the average person in Idaho or Wyoming thinks they NEED a gun for...but maybe they have better attitudes about it than many here in the big cities of the eastern USA, where 14 yr. old kids have been recorded in interviews as saying that it is just 'easier' to shoot someone if they 'mess' with you. No, I am not often near those neighborhoods, but if I were, HAVING a gun would not do me much good. I suppose if I were in Wyoming...I might own something, but not here!...and what about a mid-sized city in Kansas? There sure seems to be a wide difference of opinion, depending on where you live and certain .....ummmmm....well, just certain basic attitudes.

Let's face it...SOME folks just like guns, no matter WHAT reason, statistics and the law say.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Randy Littleton
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 06:25 PM

I just wanted to thank every one on this site for the knowledge I have gained by visiting and reading your comments. I would like to add my two cents here by saying that, IF a trained and competent School Teacher wants to carry, they should not not only be allowed but also encouraged to do so, only my two cents, but thats my opinion, again thanks for sharing the knowledge. Randy Littleton

If your interested, these are my photos during a breaking and sighting in of a Blaser R-93.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=274270&a=11297593

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:55 PM

This is about as likely to produce any sort of consensus as a discussion of abortion "rights." I'll have to throw my hat in the ring with kendall, Big Mick, ddw, etc. Never shot anyone yet and hope I never have cause to.Had to laugh last year when Michigan passed a "right to carry law." Heard someone say, "This is terrible, now people can carry guns anywhere." Wanted to tell them, guess what...they can, and have anyway. If all firearms magically disappeared and were then outlawed everywhere in the world, there'd be people building them in basements and garages and caves all over the world. Once the technology and knowhow are there, there's no stopping it. If you choose to be firearms-free, so be it. Increased numbers of firearms laws and restricted gun ownership has only had an impact on law-abiding citizens. It's far more difficult to go through legal channels in most of the United States to buy a gun than it is to purchase one illegally.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:12 PM

I'm just gonna bite my tongue here. The UK has its policy and we have ours -

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:10 PM

Artbrooks, you are taking this back into the realm of serious talk, probably not a good idea...

At any rate, let me point out that there are many restrictive gun laws in our country--the big cities, such as NYC and Washington DC have laws that are easily as restrictive as the British Laws, and most states are fairly restrictive as well. It is a gross misrepresentation to say that citizens have an unfettered right to keep and bear arms--

I find it interesting that people are very concerned about gun related deaths, but have little to say, particularly in a political way, about vehicular deaths, which account for many, many times more deaths--

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gary T
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 05:00 PM

Come now, artbrooks, people don't ignore the opening clause of the second amendment, they just interpret as intended at the time it was written.

(Well regulated=effective; militia=every capable citizen.)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:56 PM

artbrooks, you make some good points. I find the M-79 a bit bulky for shopping, especially if you want to brandish your weapon while looking for a parking space. The UZI is small in appearance, which is why I like to fire a quick demonstration salvo into the Gap before entering, just to soften up the room.

And sure, grapeshot or canister can be devastating in the confines of an intimate family gathering, but sometimes tends to do excessive damage to the decorations.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:44 PM

I do not own a firearm. Never have. I've considered getting one for sporting purposes. I have not had time to get what I considered proper training. Thus, I have not bothered taking the required exam (where the clerk asks if I will be paying cash or credit).

I have had people point a hand gun at me, twice. While working as a college kid at a fast food resturaunt (is that a contradiction?). Was I scared - a bit - till I realized neither had the safety off and their finger was not on the trigger. One time we just handed the guy the money in the till. He walked out. We called the cops and told him who had robbed us and where he lived. He was an employee's younger brother. (Not smarter, younger.)

I tend to have sharp pointed things about, that I know exactly where they are, and have the confidence in my own ability to use them. Does that make me a knife/axe/sword nut?

Ah well....

Pete

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jane 2001
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:40 PM

Another comment from Britain. Some of the arguments here are amazing. "It's people who have never handled guns who bad-mouth people who do." Well yes, otherwise we'd call them hypocrites wouldn't we? "Cars, guns, axes even combs can kill." Yes, but not from across the street, and not whole rooms full of people. And to the Brit who is in favour of nice people belonging to gun clubs, the Dunblane kiddies were massacred by just such a nice club member.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:27 PM

Les B: The 2nd amendment to the US Constitution states that "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This dates to 1791. Many Americans, including many of our elected leaders, choose to ignore the first two clauses and interpret it as meaning that citizens have an unfettered right to keep and bear arms. Others insist that this is only true in the context of membership in a militia organization {or the National Guard, successor organization to the local militias} and therefore may no longer be valid. Not even the Swiss require their part-time soldiers to keep their weapons at home anymore. Parties on both sides have, through the years, been very careful not to bring this question up through the levels of our legal system for a definitive determination.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:15 PM

I'm all in favor of more intensive training for people who want driver's licenses as well.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:13 PM

How come when car or truck drivers act like idiots or maniacs, it's the driver's fault, but when hunters, or people out shooting in general, act like idiots or maniacs (and I'm the first to agree that many of them do), it's the gun's fault?

I, personally, have done a good number of stupid and/or dangerous things with a car in my life (mostly when I was younger, but I'll probably start again as I approach senility), but few, if any, with a gun - and I do like to shoot. But people want to take my guns away and leave me with my car. It don't make no sense.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 04:13 PM

LEJ: could you hang some christmas lights that blink on and off on that little holster? That would make it even more festive!

DougR

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:57 PM

Well, I've had a pheasant hunter fire a gun from behind me and just to the left of my left shoulder, aiming for a bird that was in the road just ahead of me.

And I've had people hunting groundhogs for sport, shooting right through my yard when I had a small child and a dog in the vicinity.

And another time some hunters actually did shoot my dog.

I don't know about concealed weapons, but I sure as hell think people who use guns for sport need more legally required training in how to use them responsibly. I think I'll go over and post this to the other thread.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:51 PM

To quote Ian McKellen, in Xmen...

"You homo sapiens and your guns..."

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Les b (U.K.)
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:45 PM

Norton1 I find your reasoning for gun ownership strange, as I always assumed that in the said fight both sides had guns, which should mean that we all have guns over here!
From my viewpoint I still can't understand why anybody would want to own a gun. Different cultures I suppose.
Cool Yule
Les

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:36 PM

Les - The roots of gun ownership in America is solidly tied to our fight with England for our independance. I'm glad you are enjoying this! It is always with disbelief that I read posts from places that cannot own firearms. How odd for me!

I've not met you - so Merry Christmas to you and yours also!

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM

I had a loaded gun... but herself took care of that this morning before she went on her way to work... Now it's just spent and relaxed...

;-P

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Les b (U.K.)
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:26 PM

Here in the U.K.I read this thread with growing incredulity. I cannot conceive why anybody would own or think about using a gun.
The only people I can think of that might use one, are either criminals, the police(in exceptional circumstances), and wildfowler types who seem to think that by massacering wildlife it makes them more of a man!
The fact that you are all talking about it so matter of factly, I find unbelievable. Meery Xmas
Les

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:26 PM

An M-79 with a flechette round would also be quite useful for navigating crowded shopping malls. It's the nice big bore that does it...a lot more physical presence than your wimpy Uzi, especially if you prefer the 10" one. Black powder cannon are great for celebrations, but grapeshot or canister works much better than ball on your REALLY difficult targets, like conservatives and "right-to-keep-and-bare-machine-guns" fanatics.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:19 PM

EJ - Absolutely superb!

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Paul Mitchell
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:18 PM

As a Brit' I, too, find this an interesting thread to watch. Until recently I couldn't understand the desire on the part of any right thinking person to carry a gun. However, having recently been targetted by a guy diagnosed as having psychopathic tendancies (and I'm not being overly dramatic here), I find myself wanting to protect my family as best I can. So suddenly I'm wondering if I would carry a gun if I was allowed. This bloke is due out of prison in Jan' next year (unless the police do him on another couple of charges), so this may not even be paranoia! If I believed HE was able to access a fire arm (which for all I know, he can) I'd be climbing the walls!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:06 PM

And there are probably quite a few out after you Leej..........Especially after a post like that one....LOL.......Great job!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 02:54 PM

Christmas presents a great challenge for those of us who wish to "pack heat". I can't say what is right for you, but by following some simple guidelines, you should find yourself discretely deadly in any situation.

Last minute shopping in those crowded malls? I suggest you head off any potential trouble by wearing something with large caliber heft and possibly semi-automatic firing capability. I prefer an Ouzi, because its lightweight comfort doesn't slow me down, and its obvious presence hung from a leather shoulder-swing discourages any conflict over the last Playstation 2.

You daughter's Christmas Choral Concert? Something easily concealable and discreet strikes the right festive note here. I like my 22 caliber Beretta pistol, worn under my blazer in a red and green shoulder holster. I'm sacrificing firepower I realize, but most of my fears of becoming the victim of a sudden hostage situation are waylaid.

Suppose you are invited to an old-fashioned Christmas celebration? Nothing says "celebrate the occasion with a bang" like a fully-functioning smoothbore black powder weapon. And if you should get into a heated altercation with a liberal or other anti-American, nothing has the stopping power within 100 yards.

Wishing everyone a secure Christmas, and remember...its not paranoia if they REALLY are out to get you!

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 01:28 PM

Yeah Doug, but he's kinda' Downeast stubborn and his hearing's going too, because when his doctor suggested that Viagra could help, Kendall just blew him off......Said he thought the doc was a damn fool. Kendall said it didn't make any sense that a waterfall would help his performance problems.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 01:02 PM

Ahem. "mebbe."

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 01:01 PM

Meme so, Spaw, but Kendall can read! He watches TV! He reads magazines, and even in a place as isolated as Maine he must have read, seen, or heard abut VIAGRA!

DougR

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:05 PM

Well hell kat, he has to "pack" some sort of firearm since his original equipment "packed it in" long ago..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:58 AM

That's right, Kendall, and of course, I was too scared for my daughter and myself (At one point it looked as though he was going to turn around and come back) to even think about doing such a thing. Out here, though, one would most likely be found not guilty by reason of self-defense.

I forgot, there was a time that I "carried." When working as a bartender at a pizza parlour and I was walking home every night, alone, at 2 and 3 a.m. This was at the height of the oil boom when almost anything "went" and it was a risk my then-father-in-law didn't like me to take, so he bought me a small handgun to carry. As soon as I quit that job, I got rid of the gun, too.

Kendall, I would have absolutely no concern in being around you while you were "packin'."

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:45 AM

I gotta go figure out why I give a shit for the opinion of someone who doesn't even know me.

Because, Kendall, you are a conscientious person who (in spite of your image) is deeply concerned and caring about your friends and fellow persons.

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 11:38 AM

If you had chased that yahoo down and blown him away, you would be commiting murder. Clearly, when he left he was no longer a threat to you. This is where the knowledge of the law comes in handy.It is always a bad idea to shoot at a fleeing felon. I agree that there are too many yahoos out there with guns, I am not a yahoo. I dont fault harpgirl or anyone who is afraid of guns, it is your right. What I do object to is people who dont know me calling me nasty names. I gotta go figure out why I give a shit for the opinion of someone who doesn't even know me. BTW, my PM's and e mails are running 100% with me.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:54 AM

Before my parents divorced, my dad had a shotgun in the house, and I knew Beyond ALL Doubt that if I even got within spitting distance of it without supervision, that I would not live to tell about it. Not because of a firearms accident, but because of the Wrath of Dad. He didn't kid about things like that. Now, I knew some of the things I could push my luck on, but that wasn't one of them.

Same with my step-nieces and nephews. They can all shoot (most of them can outshoot me!)and they know their daddy don't mess around neither.

Maybe we could replace the term "cowboy" with "yahoo"? A real cowboy respects the power of his weapons. A yahoo, on the other hand.............

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:25 AM

Artbrooks, put me in the minority, too. Although I was raised with guns, target practising, and enjoyed it, I haven't shot a gun in almost twenty years and only own one very old .22 single shot rifle which belonged to my dad.

In all of my time living back East, in some of the not so great areas, I never felt a need to have a gun and never had problems with any break-ins. Only when I moved back to Wyoming did I have a problem when some drunk ass drove past me and shot across the back of my car in the middle of the night while I was taking my daughter to the hospital. All of my friends out here urged me to get a gun and told me tales of how they would have chased the fellow down and blown him off the road. Sorry, not my cup of tea. And, Sorchadarlin', NOT everyone in Wyoming owns guns, the majority, yes, but not all of us.

The old cowboy mentality was what I was raised with: weapons were kept out of the reach of children, said children knew how to use them, but also knew they'd be in deep shit if they ever took one down without permission. We were also taught to never use a gun in anger and never, ever point it at someone unless we meant to use the deadly force we were all too aware of. A lot of people, like Sorcha, still teach these ways, but I've seen too many drunks kill their spouses or kids accidentally shoot their friends, or a kid going home from school and getting out the family gun to successfully commit suicide. In a perfect world, there would be no guns, anywhere, for lack of need or desire.

kat

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:16 AM

Kendall, you aren't really carrying a snubnose loose in your pocket, are you? That's what the prior posts made it sound like!

I will defend - loudly - the right of any person with the proper training, and no history of violent crime or other evidence of instability, to possess and carry weapons. But you reach in your pocket for a pick or beer change and you bump that hammer, and your vocal range goes up two octaves in an instant!

I hope I misunderstood.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 10:10 AM

Mister and I thought about getting concealed carry permits, which are available in Tennessee, but we haven't done it because The Process is Long and Arduous and Expensive. Not just any bloke can apply for a permit and get one, which is as it should be. You have to go through certified training with the weapon you intend to carry, plus post a bond or prove insurance or something like that. Anyway it costs some money aside from the cost of your pistol.

When this became a law a few years ago, gun shops, instructors, and the State couldn't keep up with the demand.

A gun is a tool like any other tool. If you want to use one, you need to know how, or else accidents can happen. Same goes for lawn mowers, hammers, chainsaws, axes, scissors, and kitchen knives, to say the least. And wool combs- they have sharp teeth about 4" long.

Kendall, I would trust you to protect my sorry ass anytime. :-)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:50 AM

Funny - Out here in Idaho if you don't have a weapon people think you are a felon. This is a very rural area and is very much a part of the old west. Like Sorcha - we figure the best defense is to promote the good and well being of all who come here. We teach our children safe and responsible gun handling. My state not only has concealed carry but every pickup around has a gun rack in the rear window with at least one rifle hanging in it.

Ground squirrels are a serious problem and in the spring we shoot all of them we can - rodent control - and when unwanted folks come into our homes I think we see them as part of a problem. More rodent control.

For those who never see a gun in anything but a store window, a museum, or on a police officer's hip I am glad. There are others out here who have seen just about everything else and are justified in the Legal carrying of a firearm.

And I too believe Guest (Lord that misnomer again) is very familiar with us. And one day Guest (Gad can't we give this tourist another monicker?) will be identified after he goes over the line. Then the clown will have to become responsible for his little self. I'm glad Joe deleted his message - Kendall my Brother I don't doubt you can handle yourself - but our little girl started something that was best left private and I'm real OK with Joe Offer stepping in.

My best to you all in the Holidays!

Steve

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 09:47 AM

No paranoia here, Kendall. I would never break the law and carry where it is not legal to do so. As to the cowboy mentality that certain ignorant folks here are trying to label us with, I would ask a question. Where has that ever been the case? At any number of locations where it is legal to carry, that is not the case. While in Arizona for 6 months on assignment a few years back, I saw any number of folks carrying. I also saw fender benders, disagreements, even a fight outside a local watering hole. Never saw a soul pull a weapon.

Mick

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:51 AM

Jock, I am with you. If I could wave a wand and make ALL guns disappear forever, I would do it in a heartbeat. However, reality steps in here, and those of you who need to bury your heads in the sand should be grateful that some of us are on duty to protect your sorry asses. And, macho has nothing to do with it. If it did in my case I'd be packing a .44 magnum instead of a .38 with a two inch barrel. Some of you remind me of my little girl, age 8, when she saw me putting up smoke detectors. She asked what they were, and I told her. She started to cry because she just began to realize that her world was not safe and perfect. As long as there are whackos out there packing unseen guns, I will also pack, and I will eat at McDonalds with the assurance that some nut case wont get all of us. What have you people got against equality anyway? BTW, my license is only valid in Maine and Florida, so, all you paranoids in between can relax when you see me coming.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:14 AM

Hey Gervase.....Is there a song there? Maybe to the tune of "Pistol Packin' Mama"??? How about "Pissed and Packin' Gerry?"

Spaw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 08:13 AM

Well, I guess I'm a member of that very small minority of Americans, at least according to what some folks would like to think. The only firearms I've ever carried or fired were the ones the Army issued to me. Creaping into another thread, the only hunting I've ever done was for Asian deer in the Korean DMZ with an M-14 rifle. I'm 55 years old, have lived in most parts of the country, and have never seen a weapon pointed at anyone, never been in or around a civilian/gangster firefight, never had my home entered by armed (or unarmed) intruders, or encountered any of the other reasons others give for carrying at all times. Perhaps I live in a dream world or perhaps I'm just lucky. If a person wants to carry for valid person defense reasons, and he/she is trained and qualified to do so, ok with me. If a person wants to pack iron because it wakes him feel more macho to do so, let me know so I can be somewhere else.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:52 AM

...Not to mention Gerry Fitt, who was given a Home Office licence to carry a personal firearm as well has having his own armed Special Branch bodyguard.
Fitt (the man who rang the Downing Street from a fish and chip shop in Derry in the middle of a riot to get Wilson to send in the troops to protect the civil rights movement as the Protestants went on a savage rampage against them) was a prodigious drinker, whose passion was gin & tonics. His personal protection officer was instructed to do as Fitt did, but just to have the tonic water whenever they were out on the town. One poor guy lasted five days and then had to go sick because he was suffering from quinine poisoning.
Then there was a time tha Fitt couldn't get served at the bar of the Irish Club in Eaton Square (one of the swankiest addresses in London, for them across the pond). He pulls out his Webley and fires four shots into the ceiling - and is served in seconds and everything is quietly, ahem, hushed up. The club only got round to removing the last traces of Fitt's fit about four years ago.
Not that I'd ever condone someone being pissed and packing, of course...

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 07:43 AM

As a Brit watching this spat from across the Atlantic, I can't see why anyone has a problem with Kendall carrying a firearm. He's clearly trained in its use and is a responsible and thoughtful former law enforcement officer.
Many Brits, especially in central London, would be surprised if they knew how many people around them were armed. With the current terrorism alert, virtually every officer of SO8, SO13 and SO19 (Special Branch, Anti-Terrorist and Firearms branches) is deployed on the streets, many of them in plain clothes. But most people have no problem with that.
Unfortunately our firearms laws have become so draconian that pistol-shooting looks like dying out as a sport over here - pace this very good piece by Labour MP Kate Hoey (who's from an Irish hunting family and is a damned good MP). And it mentions Christmas!
But much anti-gun reaction is from those who have never had anything to do with them (and I know that the Snowdrop campaign, set up in the wake of Dunblane and which led directly to the current firearms law was a reaction, but it was quickly taken up and taken over by those who had nothing to do with the tragedy and who had their own agendas to further). Personally, I find knives much more scary when in the wrong hands.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From:
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 03:59 AM

Speaking as someone who owns two .22 target rifles and shoots as a sport I can safely say I'm glad to live in the UK where people can't (legally) go wandering the streets carrying weapons concealed or otherwise. Guns have no place in a civilised society outside of properly run gun clubs or in rural areas for controlling vermin.

Having said that, if I was in the US and lived in an area where a break in was a serious risk I'd probably be very tempted to have a handgun in the house to shoot the intruder with. Could look on that as controlling vermin I guess:-)

Scott

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 02:24 AM

I think you may be right about the anti gun people being those who've never handled a weapon. I guess I'm the exception to the rule then.

I disagree strongly with carrying personal firearms. I have worked with and fired a variety of them, and that with both 'live' and 'safe' conditions (live ammo and disabled weapons). I've never seen the damage a gun does to a human, but I know they kill. So do bread knives. So do cars. Hell, even some innocent little lamp can zap someone enough to make them think twice.... I try to be very careful in my car, because I know that they kill. One of them killed my brother. I don't carry weapons, because here it's a)illegal and b)doesn't act as a deterrant but completely the opposite. Trouble is, I'm quite happy for people to own them for personal sporting use. Gun clubs are full of responsible people with responsible jobs all wanting to practice their sport, to encourage sensible use of guns and to provide a safe environment to do so in. Trouble is, British law will not distinguish between the two ergo - If you own a hand gun, you are likely to use it to kill someone. Even antiques were strictly controlled. The museum I worked in at the time of the gun amnesty (hand in your firearms and we won't ask questions) benefited by at least 40 new weapons, ranging from a WWII Webley officers pistol to a brand new, just out of Argentina, MiG machine gun...... and that was a little rural county! So go figure.....!

The only heat we're packing this Christmas is the heated foot spa for Camilla.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:46 AM

Oh, Coyote Breath, I'm gonna disagree with you a bit. I don't think the poster is just an Internet cruiser. This is someone who is familiar with the Mudcat.

I just think you folks got "took" by a flamer.

DougR

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:40 AM

OH! Packing Heat - I thought this was a discussion about the smoke from Irish fires backing up and asphixiating people - you know, Hacking Peat!

pax yall

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: ddw
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:39 AM

Kendall et al who own guns,

Does it strike you that almost all of the people who badmouth weapons owners are people who have never actually touched one? Talk about yer judgmental twits.....

I grew up hunting, loved being out in the woods and stalking prey, but didn't like killing things. As soon as I could earn money I put that into buying meat instead of hunting it. But I don't think anybody should be allowed to eat meat if they've never killed for it — at least chopped the head off a chicken or turkey or goose.

And just as an aside, I wonder if society might not be a pleasanter place to be if we had the assurance that EVERYBODY was armed. Bet you wouldn't run into nearly as many rude assholes.

cheers,

david

BTW — I don't own any weapons now, but only because of the Draconian laws in Canada. I inherited an 1860s shotgun a few years ago and, after checking with my local police department, found it was going to cost me something in the neighborhood of $4,000 to $5,000 to bring it into the country. And that for an antique..... Go figure...

ddw

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Chip2447
Date: 19 Dec 01 - 12:14 AM

I wonder why responsible firearm owners are often villified as evil doers in the disguise of 'normal people'. I have owned firearms all of my adult life, and never shot anyone, never threatened anyone with a weapon. I guess I need to find my Snydly Whiplash costume.
Chip2447

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:39 PM

Yes, Rich, guns are an American Icon. And kendall, get your lady friend a .41 magnum with 6" barrel. If she hits him he won't get up. Even if she doesn't hit him, the noise will scare him to death. Just don't let her keep it under her pillow. Harpgirl, I reccomend that you NEVER come to Wyoming--EVERYBODY here has guns. I mean everybody. We ain't giving them up, either. That is all I am going to say.

Sorcha, Certified Hunter Safety Instructor in 2 states who doesn't kill anything but flies and mosquitos now, but damn sure owns guns. Sorry, I just finally had enuf of the crap and had to post a little of my own.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 11:25 PM

These 'provocative' threads, it seems to me, are often started by someone called "guest -------". I have a sneaking suspicion that there are people who surf the net looking for places to post something provocative. I don't think it matters much what. As I define being 'provocative' this sort of person would properly be called a "provocateur"; as in "agent provocateur". In the pre-net days this sort showed up at "free forum" nights in local coffee houses. The difference being, of course, we knew who they were (more or less). I have said before (well if I haven't I'll say it now) the internet is a modern (and more socially acceptable) equivalant of the restroom wall. My grandfather had a saying about this sort of thing which I hereby share; "Fools names and fools faces are often seen in public places." Of course he wasn't being literal.

Someday, when I have time (unless Joe Offer can do it through archieve searching some how) I am going to go throuh a large selection of threads, say a years worth. I am going to see how many of these threads are provocative and not directly associated with folk music or blues. I am then gong to see how many were atarted by someone identified as Guest-------. I might be surprised but I will bet that identification will apply to the majority.

Hmmmm. Perhaps I should just forget the whole thing and go to bed. I don't know what such information would mean after all.

CB

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:26 PM

FYI I have a lady friend who lives alone, and she wants me to help her choose a hand gun, and teach her to shoot. She lives in a posh neighborhood, and, if she is ever faced with a home intrusion, she doesn't have much confidence in being able to passivly resist the intruder. I'm curious bare arms, now that you know, what has actually changed? Did I suddenly become an ogre'?

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: RichM
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:23 PM

Wow...interesting to watch americans talk about one of the sacred objects of their culture...

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 10:05 PM

Just for the record, I dont ALWAYS carry a gun, but, when I do, it is my business. Now, all you paranoid types, what do you see when you look at an armed police officer? Are you less concerned because it is visible? Given my background, I think your concern is groundless. I'm not, and never have been a rapist, robber or gun wielding nut case. I am a retired Federal law enforcement officer who may one day get out of the habit. Until then, ..I'm a rambler, I'm a gambler, a long way from home, and the people dont like me, they can leave me alone. (Gotta get some music into this)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:44 PM

OK, now you're getting into personal matters. If you want to disagree with a person's statement that he/she carries a handgun, do it in the thread where the person made the statement - and identify yourself by name.
Better yet, don't do it at all.
Message deleted.
-Joe Offer-

---

Maybe I shouldn't have deleted it - Kendall seems to be able to handle things just fine.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:39 PM

:(

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:20 PM

Joe,

You are a wise man

My respects to you

(apologies for not having the 'guts' to make up a meaningless pseudonym for myself)

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:13 PM

I never saw the need for carrying a weapon. I've never personally needed one, and if someone else were in trouble, I'd have no idea how I'd react, and guns can be very dangerous in that situation. People in a state of panic, or just plain anger or fear, don't often behave rationally.

I have carried a weapon, but it's pretty hard to conceal an M-16.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 06:10 PM

I'm not actually replying to you, "Bare Arms", but simply registering my DISAPPROVAL at your rude, naughty behaviour and general lack of manners.

Merry Christmas, and may you learn to know better in the new year, who or wherever you are.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:48 PM

Well, I guess this has turned into a discussion. I didn't 'spect it would - but I've been wrong before.

I worked as an investigator for the U.S. Government for 25 years, doing background checks on applicants for sensitive positions, including law enforcement jobs. I sometimes worked in dangerous areas, but I have never carried a firearm. Some of my coworkers did - and some of them got fired for it. I know that people often assumed I was "packing," but I wasn't. Was I safer because people assumed I was armed? - I don't think so, but maybe that's the case.

I can tell you all sorts of tales about people who used firearms irresponsibly, but I can't tell you any about civilians who used firearms in a responsible manner to solve a problem. I remember one 6-month period when I had TWO Border Patrol Agent applicants who shot themselves in the buttocks with their handguns when they were trying to put the guns under their belts. I never did find out if they got the job. I'm sure glad they weren't working with ME, although I did have two coworkers who were less than responsible with their handguns.

I've had a gun pointed at me only once in my life, and I'm glad I was unarmed and was able to convince the people I was unarmed. They were scared, and they might well have shot me if I had a gun. Common sense, a smile, and a calming manner are a much better defense than a handgun. Handguns are for peace officers, not civilians.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Midchuck
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM

I don't carry unless I'm going out in the woods to shoot tin cans or whatever. Where I live, in VT, where it's perfectly legal, there's no need. Every single murder is a front page headline. In the cities, where there is a need, they won't let you.

Going to Montana for Xmas, so I probably should - it's expected of one there - but trying to get it on the plane and not get into trouble would be too chancy, so I won't.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:19 PM

I got a loaded squirt gun in my pocket...want to get it out for me?

I wouldn't care who that person is...and what they were carrying, so long as they are properly trained in its usage.....hell...If I came across katdarling carrying a bazooka at a barney festival and she knew how to use one....i would not break a sweat...that is until I opened my mouth...it does have the tendency to get me in trouble...

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 05:04 PM

... my illusions have been shattered by this Mudcatter... Illusions are no help to living rationally, and the purpose of Mudcat is not to reinforce them. So when someone says this sort of thing, it sounds rather more like trolling than like real interest in discussion.

Is carrying concealed, loaded guns typical of the people who frequent Mudcat? The vast majority of people who carry a concealed weapon are unlikely to want to advertise it gratuitously. So again, this looks more like trolling than like real interest in discussion.

Being a folkie and/or a Mudcatter is no guarantee what anyone is like!!! We are each responsible for exercising judgment about with whom to associate, and under what circumstances.

~S~

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,SharonA on vacation, checkin' in
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 04:54 PM

I agree with MMario. It's the people with the UNconcealed loaded guns who present a threat! ...and also the people who threaten to draw their guns, boasting about it publicly.

I haven't read the post to which Bare Arms refers, so I don't know the context in which the person in question mentioned his gun and can't form an opinion about his intentions. Can someone provide a link?

BTW, there's plenty of folk music that can be interpreted as promoting violence, notably the pro-union songs. Have you read or heard what some of those songs say that the workers will do to their bosses once Labor has the upper hand over Management??? It ain't pretty.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: MMario
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 04:40 PM

carrying a loaded gun does not neccessarily mean a violent person. I know several ladies in their 80's who routinely put a loaded pistol in their purse when leaving the house in the morning - and most of them wouldn't hurt a flea - without provocation.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Bare Arms
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 04:27 PM

The idea comes from reading another thread where a prominent Mudcatter reveals that he always carries a concealed, loaded gun.

I always thought that folk music people were gentle, non-violent sorts. I think of the anti-gun songs by people like Tom Paxton, for example. But now, my illusions have been shattered by this Mudcatter. I'm trying to determine if I'm out of step. Is carrying concealed, loaded guns typical of the people who frequent Mudcat?

I have seen this heat packing Mudcatter at family oriented folk music festivals. I sure don't want my kids around him now that I know what he's about.

Subject: RE: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 04:11 PM

What gave you the idea that this would be an interesting topic for discussion? I don't intend to delete the thread unless it becomes a flame war, but I can't see what relevance this has in a music forum. I'm hoping we can let this thread die a lonely death.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Who is packing heat this Xmas?
From: GUEST,Bare Arms
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 03:51 PM

How many other Mudcatters are carrying loaded guns this Christmas?

Do you pack heat when you go to Gandma's?

How about to the Grade 3 Christmas Pagaent?

I call myself 'Bare Arms' cause I cut off my sleeves.