Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't

Subject: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 05:40 PM

No doubt this has been discussed here many times before. I play mainly from reading music have to transpose some tunes to get them in range of my flute. Unfortunately I have started to go to a long running session where some of the music is in a key suited to Violin (it goes down to b)so how do I play along? do I transpose just the phrase that goes to low by an octave?
Is there a better solution, other than not joining in or missing the low notes out?

roger

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: allie kiwi
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:06 PM

It is many years since I learned the flute - the clarinet suited my needs far more - but I remember it was possible to get a 'B foot' - the 3rd small part of the flute when you assemble it? You can get a different one that takes your range down to B.

Yikes I'm well out of my depth here *blush*.

Allie who will quietly leave so the experts can explain...

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 06:16 PM

So am I because I am a fiddler. I understand the problem, though. Would it work to sound the B an ocatave higher? We do that on fiddle a lot--I'll play in one ocatve, Dana plays in the other. Sounds OK on fiddle anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: 53
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:33 PM

too bad you can't use a capo on the flute like you can the guitar or bango, hope that you'll figure out what to do. BOB

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: allie kiwi
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 07:55 PM

I had a look around about this B foot thing.

The B foot flute, is longer than one with a C foot. Its lowest note is B3. This longer foot joint also facilitates some high notes. Whereas the lowest note on most of the student model flutes is C (called C foot), professional flutes have the extended B foot. Some musical pieces, usually in the more advanced or professional category, requires the usage of the B note. Hence, the extended B note allows flutes to be used even for this type of musical pieces.

I dont know if you can buy a different foot piece for your brand of flute, though. A closed hole one seems to be about 500 pounds.

What type of flute have you got?

Allie

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:13 PM

If you are playing the melody rather than a harmony part you could try playing the whole piece(s) an octave up and it should sound OK. Trial & error - If it fits in OK, just play the low phrase an octave up as you suggest. If you add another piece to the length of the flute it would probably change the key from C to B? as well as giving you the lower note. I would suspect that the extension would transpose the flute from C to Bb so that it could be played along with "Fifes" as used in Orange,Hibernian or Military "Flute" Bands, or played with brass bands without the need for a separately written parts.

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: GUEST,Brían(Cookie Expired)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:56 PM

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: GUEST,Brían(Cookie Expired)
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:09 PM

Roger,
Some tunes are better suited to fiddle than Flute. A tune like Drowsey Maggie, while a contant workout for the fingers on a flute or whistle, falls under a fiddlers fingers. Other tunes like The Mountain Road and Mary Ramsey have that darned B in it. I have seen people play the B an octave above or a roll on a harmonizing note like G. Other tunes like The The Fox Hunter's Reel are better on the fiddle in A, while better on the flute in G, although most fiddlers can play it in both keys.

Brían

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Helen
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:29 PM

Sometimes I just play a low d note if a b is required, so that it harmonises on the third. If that doesn't fit with the music try a fifth above, i.e. an f, or the octave b above, as others have suggested. You might have to fiddle (wicked grin, as she slips a dreadful pun into the thread) about with what works best, but I find that the third usually works well.

My sister will often play the whole tune an octave above and it makes it more like an arrangement decision - because it changes the feel of the music, but if you don't want to feature the flute over the fiddle doing this may make it too obvious.

Experiment around. Maybe tape the fiddles playing these tunes so that you can play around with them at home and work something out. Or do what I like doing and get the midi of the tune and play around with variations on a music notation programme like Noteworthy so that you can hear the overall effects of each idea.

Helen

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: allie kiwi
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 10:53 PM

"If you add another piece to the length of the flute it would probably change the key from C to B? as well as giving you the lower note. I would suspect that the extension would transpose the flute from C to Bb" Kenny.

I dont think the longer foot actually does do that. It just adds another note.

From www.fluteworld.com

B Foot This foot joint reaches down to low B, one half-step lower than the C foot, by adding one more key and extending the length of the flute. The B foot joint adds weight to the overall instrument which increases resistance and results in producing an overall darker tone versus the brighter tone of a C foot joint. The B foot joint improves the overall pitch of the third octave. It is the standard flute choice for contemporary compositions requiring extended techniques.

But I agree that harmonising by palying the 3rd above sounds like a good idea.

Allie

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:03 AM

If the tune is well known.

Give a good solid, on the beat, a "RAP" with the hand, foot, or knee; and it becomes a "creative interpretation" which the audience, in their minds, fill with the "missing note.

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:06 AM

Since this thread implies that you are playing with others....skip the beat and allow the accompanying players to fill in the note.

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:55 AM

Thanks for the help

Allie I started on the standard keyed 'silver' flute and then moved on to wooden flutes. Unfortunately my wooden flute has a nice tone but doesn't go below D, it was all I could afford and I had to compromise on something and that was to lose the low C for reasons of cost

I don't really understand harmony and Helen answered the question I should have asked. When joining in I played the D instead of B and it didn't seem out of place, just didn't understand why. The low bit of the tune is one of its best bits so yes it would probably change the overall sound in a bad way if I jumped octave at that point.
Thanks everyone, now if I could just understand what 3rds and 5ths are!

Roger

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:01 AM

Sorcha this tune, like many others, is difficult for me as played as written it goes to low. Played an octave higher a couple of notes go higher than my range - two octaves is fairly limiting!

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Helen
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:32 AM

Roger,

If the tune is in the key of C major (which I have to confess I assumed it was) then you work out the thirds and fifths by counting the notes up from the tonic(i.e, the note which names the key).

So: C D E F G A B 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

1st is C, 3rd is E, 5th is G.

If, for example the key is G major, with one sharp on F, then:

G A B C D E F# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

If it was in a minor key like A minor (i.e. the tonic note is A, but there are no sharps and flats) then:

A B C D E F G 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

So you need to know if it is a major or minor key. Looking at the starting and finishing notes of the melody often helps to decide this. And you need to know what key it is, e.g. C major or G major, or their corresponding minor keys. Then, as my clever friend would say, Robert is your parent's sibling. (Bob's your uncle - for some reason in Oz this phrase means everything is just right/sweet/hunky dory.)

If it's a modal tune then identifying the key is fairly complicated and I don't understand all about that, so it's best not to confuse yourself with complications before you understand the basics. Worry about that stuff later.

On the celtic harp the firsts, thirds, fifths etc are just found by counting strings - as long as the levers are set to make it in any identifiable key. What I'm trying to say is, it's really easy - easy as 1-3-5, in fact.

Hope this helps. Hope I haven't totally bamboozled you.

Helen

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: pavane
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:07 AM

If you can read either the dots or abc notation, my program HARMONY has just been upgraded to generate 3rds and 5ths - but this facility is only available to Beta testers at the moment (Any more volunteers? Please PM me))

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:37 AM

Its G
unless its the minor key, and I still don't know how to work that out
The other day I had a lucky guess when I asked a knowledgable friend if one of the tunes I was playing was in a minor key, it was, the melancholy sound of that one was the only clue I had
Starting and finishing notes, the first note is a B but that is one of two lead in notes before the first complete bar. The first note of the first bar is G as is the last note of the tune. Chords given are G,Em,Am,C and D
I seem to remember some strange things called tonic triads at school which seem to bear some resemblance to this - if only I had paid attention or played an instrument at the time!

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 10:00 AM

What's the tune called?

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:16 PM

Hmmm you might have heard of it Malcolm

The Rose Tree

very similar to this version from JC's, except I changed it from 4/4 to 2/4

X:22
T:Rose Tree, The
C:trad.
I:speed 400
M:2/4
K:G
|:BA | G2E2 D2B,2 | D3E D2D2 | G2G2 A2GA | B2A2 A2BA | G2E2 D2B,2 | D3E D2D2 | G2G2 A2GA | [2 B2G2 G2 :|[2 B2G2 G3A | |:B2A2 B2c2 | d4 c2B2 | A2e2 e3d | e2A2 A2 BA | G2E2 D2B,2 | D3E D2D2 | G2G2 A2GA | [2 B2G2 G3A :| [2 B2G2 G2|

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 12:50 PM

Are these B foots avialble to add on to any flute?

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:09 PM

Ah, I thought it might have been the Red House session you were talking about.  In fact, that particular version of the tune came from an undated manuscript book where it was titled Johnnies Grey Breeks, and written out in C.  We play it a fourth lower because it turned out that way (and nobody really enjoyed it in C); it's usually played in D elsewhere, though.  I'd go with the consensus here; just play a note that fits and don't worry about that B.  Quite a few of us do that sort of thing (especially me, with tunes I haven't finished learning) and the result, when it works, is a nice textured, "arranged" sound.  In some cases, I've become so attached to my improvised second part that I haven't bothered learning the real tune at all.

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: allie kiwi
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:44 PM

"Are these B foots avialble to add on to any flute?" ClintonHammond

I'm not sure, Clinton. When I was looking around I saw them available for Pearl, Yamaha and Gemeinhardt. I guess it depends on your brand of flute and whether they sell the extra foot separately.

All this flute talk is getting me quite nostalgic - I think I'll go get mine out!

Allie

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:58 PM

I guess the chances of them being available for a p.o.s. Artely are slim and none eh...

;-)

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: allie kiwi
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:52 PM

I have no idea, Clinton. *grin* I looked up Artley and they seem to make clarinets now, while the company they are part of makes flutes under the brand of Armstrong, and didn't list a b foot as an accesory you could buy individually.

http://www.unitedmusical.com/

You might need to spend the big bucks to get a newer model. *wink*

Allie
who'd love a harp, but can't play one...

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 08:02 PM

Spend the bucks... do me a favour.. tell that to Herself o.k.!! Just make sure I'm not in the room when ya do!!!

LOL!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: allie kiwi
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 08:05 PM

OK, let's make a deal - I'll tell 'Herself' that the big bucks are needed for a new flute, if you get my hubby to spring for a new clarinet for me?

Allie
eyeing up a lovely new licorice stick

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 10:59 PM

One of the tunes I mentioned should have been Lady Anne Montgomery, not Mary Ramsey, My brain appears to be fried from the Holidays. The Rose Tree is normally played in D where I live, at least the version we play, which is used for the Gaelic song, Portlairge. It fits very well on a D flute or whistle.,BR>
Brían

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Helen
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 12:06 AM

Roger,

This is possibly not going to be at all helpful, but...you can identify the tonic note in minor keys in the same way that, even though there were those couple of lead in notes, you identified that the Rose Tree tune "started" and ended on G. I get the "sense" of what the start and finish notes are because of a sense of resolution of the melody.

If the melody feels unfinished then you probably aren't listening to the "end" note. Some of those really earwormy tv jingles often play on that sense of unfinished melody to make you want to start replaying the tune in your head again. A little like the written music I have for The Munster Cloak, in G major. To achieve that sense of resolution you have to bring the melody back to G to end it - otherwise it would never end, but just keep going round & round in your head.

The minor tunes do seem to evoke a more subdued or melancholy feeling than the major tunes.

By the way, I forgot to put line breaks in my neat little treatise on thirds and fifths.

Should have looked like this:

"So:
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

1st is C, 3rd is E, 5th is G.

If, for example the key is G major, with one sharp on F, then:

G A B C D E F#
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

If it was in a minor key like A minor (i.e. the tonic note is A, but there are no sharps and flats) then:

A B C D E F G
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 01:04 PM

Clinton I love the crazy one liners you throw into other threads. Thought you were so sure of yourself that no one could phase you. Now appears a chink of vulnerability - HERSELF wears the trousers, does she have a helmet with horns and a hammer like THOR?
Sword for hire - pay herself

Did I just read somewhere that Jon got into trouble for posting while drunk, think I just joined the club, pass the rest of that wine.

Subject: RE: Help: the music goes down to B my flute can't
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 01:09 PM

Roger...

"HERSELF wears the trousers"

Abso-frigg'n-lootly! I'm a kept man and damn proud of it!!!! I clean, I laundry, we cook... she goes to work day after day to support my folk music career... And then she comes home, and USES me!

AND I LOVE IT!!!!

LOL!!!!!!

You should all have it so good!