BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry

Subject: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 10:10 AM

Article from today's Boston Globe claims Christian conservatives much prefer Frodo to Harry:

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/361/metro/Religious_ratings+.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: grumpy al
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:44 PM

So What???

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 02:57 PM

As a liberal christian I'd like to go on record and say that I prefer Mississippi John Hurt to BB King.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: hesperis
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:00 PM

*rolls eyes*

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:09 PM

I also prefer Frodo to Harry. Now I'm getting worried...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:24 PM

I think they're both very nice, it's just that Harry calls for a niec cream sauce, while Frodo's good with just a little butter & lemon.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:27 PM

Actually, I don't really know much about Harry...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:38 PM

Oh, I think you'd be just wild about him on a bed of greens with some nice crusty bread.....

Actually, the books are great fun, and the movie's not bad, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:45 PM

Frodo and Harry are different species; they live in very different universes, although both share a set of magic phenomena. They have different missions, Frodo is too old for Harry anyway!! This is an apples and oranges thing. It's like doing a survey that proves once and for all that Moral Majority members think Tom Sawyer is a nicer person than Mickey Mouse, for crying out loud!! Using this sort of comparison on fictitious elements is like arguing about whose dream is more intersting!! Oy, vei!! Actually, given the survey audience its more like asking people who are absolutely convinced that Aslan the Lion is going to pop out of their wardrobe any minute to compare Donald Duck with Farmer Brown.

Here's a mathematical puzzle -- how many imaginary universes can fit inside a pinhead? And which one is more important?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 03:48 PM

I guess I'll speak up as a religious conservative. Of course this is my opinion only - I don't claim to be a spokesman for anyone else.

I saw the Harry Potter movie (haven't read the books though most of my children have) and enjoyed it thoroughly. I found nothing offensive to my beliefs, keeping in mind that it is fantasy not reality. I've read LoTR many many times, and the Silmarillion at least five times (it's a much more difficult work). I've seen Fellowship of the Ring once and will no doubt see it again. In my opinion, Tolkien is much deeper than Rowling. I'll admit that my opinion is somewhat uninformed on Rowling.

I have come to the personal belief and understanding that Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn represent three separate aspects of the character and attributes of Jesus Christ. Frodo represents the humble, saviour aspect - doing for the world what was impossible for the world to do for itself. Gandalf represents the divine, godly aspect. Aragorn represents the kingly (King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Son of David) aspect. Each goes through a death/ressurection cycle (symbolic, or in the case of Gandalf, literal) - Gandalf in Moria, Frodo in Shelob's lair, and Aragorn in the Paths of the Dead - just as Christ died and rose from the tomb. Many other Christly attributes are apparent in one or more of them - teaching, prophesying, and healing, for example. Whether Tolkien did this conciously or not, I do not know; but I fully believe he was capable of it. Whether Rowling is capable of such depth, I don't know; but I give her full marks for creativity and story-telling ability.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:00 PM

Jeeze, Jon, didn't the Spanish try that with all those Incan deities? Or did you learn it from Bill Gates -- absorb, extend and redefine for incompatability?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:10 PM

Jon: I didn't know that teaching, prophesying and healing were Christian attributes. I thought they were just attributes that some Christians admired. But I guess before Christians came along the rest of mankind didn't have ANY attributes.

I'd love to hear your take on Jesus Christ and Sancho Panza.

Or the Three Musketeers Or the Three Stooges

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:11 PM

Several things important to remember. One is that Rowling's books were written for children, Tolkien's for adults or mature young people. So to compare them in terms of the depth of their writing would be comparing apples to oranges.

But as to the context of this thread and the Boston Globe article itself, as well as the very long, interesting thread which went on for some time here on this issue in relation to the Harry Potter phenomenon, I think there is something larger involved in Christian conservative comparisons of the two.

That something larger, IMO, has to do with the fact that Harry Potter books and film are geared to "impressionable" children who (according to this logic) would find themselves "lost" to the teachings of the church (be it fundamentalist Catholic or fundamentalist Protestant) which prohibit the "magic" and "occult" from being acceptable to true Christians.

Or at least, that was how I read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:15 PM

What's the difference between praying successfully for a miracle, and waving your fingers in the air with the intention of making the same event happen? The difference is, you're allowed to take responsibility for your own acts in the latter case.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:16 PM

I find it difficult to understand that "magic" and "occult" are unacceptable to Christians. Isn't the wine supposed to turn into blood? Wasn't Jesus supposed to be able to do miracles? etc, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:16 PM

Amos said:

Here's a mathematical puzzle -- how many imaginary universes can fit inside a pinhead? And which one is more important?

I assume an infinite number. As far as importance, the one that you're in / imagining you're in, I guess...

Am I right?

Paul

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:22 PM

Sorcha, to devout Christians, opinions don't matter, theology does.

Here is a quote from the article:

Christians have been wary of sorcery and witchcraft for centuries, viewing them as supernatural powers derived from evil forces. Protestant and Catholic countries persecuted people accused of witchcraft through much of Christian history.

Even today the Catholic catechism warns that ''all practices of magic or sorcery ... are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.''

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:28 PM

Amos, you misread my message. I didn't say that teaching, prophesying, and healing were Christian attributes, I said that they were Christly attributes - i.e. attributes of Jesus Christ Himself. And I never claimed that they were exclusive to Him either.

Sorcha - Although there are many sects of Christians who don't formally believe in miracles or at least in the continuance of miracles since the days of the Apostles, there are some who do. What they worry about, in terms of magic and the occult, is from what source does the power to do any particular miracle by any particular individual spring, God or the Devil? Of course if you don't believe in either one, or if you believe in only one or the other, it doesn't much matter to you, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:36 PM

PS I haven't read Don Quixote in anything like the original, so I can't comment on Sancho Panza specifically.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 04:54 PM

Still doesn't explain the theology of the doctrine of transubstantiation.......the Catholic priest is practising magic, no matter how you slice it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:00 PM

And Sorcha, if you are willing to add "in my opinion" rather than state your personal beliefs as facts, I might find it easier to agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:00 PM

Apples and oranges...

I gave 'em both a solid 8 outa 10 as really damn good movies...

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:03 PM

Right Clinton, we aren't debating about how good we thought the movies are. It is about the ways the two films are being viewed differently by Christian conservatives who objected more to Harry Potter than they are to LOTR. I find that to be a pretty fascinating subject. I think some others do too, if the previous thread on Christian conservatives response to the Harry Potter film is anything to go by. Which is why I provided a link to today's article.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:20 PM

o.k... Seeing as how my opinions of what Christian conservatives think are just gonna cause hostility, I'll leave ya's to it eh...

Lemme know when yer done, and we can meet at the end of the bar for a jar and a song k!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM

OK, fine. I'll add IMO, but the doctrine of transubstantiation is a fact, not my opinion. I didn't say I believed any of it; in fact, I don't, but a lot of people do. I'm going down to the end of the bar to join Clinton. Guinness, please, Clint, since you're buying.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:35 PM

Sorry Jon. No offense intended, really -- I just get crusty at the bewildering layers of what appears to me to be synthetic and authoritarian doctrine not easily mapped to genuine efforts. But I'm all for miracles, whoever pulls 'em off.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:37 PM

Sure thing sorch... just don't call me Clint o.k...

;-)

Shot o' Tully with that??

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:41 PM

The fact is that there is such a doctrine, true. Anything beyond that doesn't fit my definition of the word "fact", anyway....

Guinness for me too, Sir Clinton. Here's mud in yer eye, Sorcha. Break out the Ouija board, why doncha?...and let's see if there's anything interesting happening over on the Dark Side of the Force!! LOL!! Mwaahahahahaha.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:44 PM

Sure thing, Clint uh, ton. Ouija board coming up!

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:50 PM

Geeziz........Personally I prefer a good healthy shit and this thread seems to be bringing one on. Thanks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 05:55 PM

I don't think the current fundamentalist backlash against Harry Potter has anything to do with transubstantiation or the Real Presence/consubstantiation or any other Reformation-era doctrines (which aren't facts, BTW, they are just doctrines).

I think it has much more to do, in the case of the Protestant fundamentalists who seem to be leading the charge this time, with religious doctrine related to superstition.

The battle launched by the protestant reformers against 'superstition' indicated much of what was central to their preoccupations. Following St Augustine (and medieval theologians) they defined superstition as not merely the credulous notions of the unlearned but the dangerous worship of false gods. The latter extended to idolatry, divination, sorcery and magic.

Now, that isn't the same doctrine used by the Catholics to flush out heretics during the Inquisition, but the effect was pretty much the same, if you were one of those who stood accused. Both Protestant and Catholic countries persecuted with equal zealotry, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:01 PM

Gee Guest, what a wonderful post! A perfect example of "Trollobabble" if I ever saw it.

Now go ooff somewhere and fuck yourself before someone actually takes that crap seriously.

Thanks for stopping by and starting and fueling this dumbass thread.

Have a mediocre day!! Bye now.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:18 PM

Need a loan for the purchase of some indulgences, Spaw?

Sorry if I have offended people here by mentioning the Boston Globe article. After the very long and really interesting thread on this subject just a few weeks back, I thought I'd call it to the attention of Mudcatters who might have an interest in the article. Apparently, I was wrong. So we can let the thread die a natural death.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:25 PM

You read Silmarillion five times?

I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:28 PM

I don't suppose its possible that these stories have to do with the good guys beating the bad guys and how they went about it and nothing more?

Anything caught in the middle is just story telling??

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 06:46 PM

Don, it has to do with who was doing the fighting for good, and the methods they used, which bothers the religious conservatives, whether they believe in the infallibility of the pope, or the infallibility of the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:04 PM

Now the Next question is wot happens to Harry when he leaves "Hogwarts". Does he go on to the "Unseen University" ? - and what happens when Captain Carrot learns that he spent 10 years living in a cuboard under the stairs ?

Question ? is Moldevarts (sic) a match for Susan D'Eath ?

This could be interesting !

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:09 PM

The Pope is human and there by nature must be fallible. The bible, not a living being in any accepted term, can neither be fallible or infallible, is at best a history with some pretty good suggestions as how to live on this earth. And the bible being written by humans must have a few mistakes in it.

To discuss Harry Potter or The Rings on religious terms and whether or not they contribute to the grand scheme or whether God might approve seems to give them more weight than they deserve. They are great stories that entertain and along the way teach one message. Goodness will defeat badness. Over time it always has.

Which may well be the great message after all. It isn't owned by one religion or one belief or by one sect that thinks it has a better spin than another.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:24 PM

I agree with you wholeheartedly Don. My mention of infallibility was merely descriptive of beliefs central to fundamentalist Protestants (the bible) and Catholics (the pope).

I personally describe myself as a reformed Catholic heathen, but most folks these days don't get the joke because they have precious little knowledge of Christian religion. Its kind of hard to have a sense of humour in these threads when no one gets the drift of your meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:38 PM

Guest,

I caaught your meaning upfront.

My long held complaint is is everyone tends to be too serious. Complaints about using emoticons abound. Its hard to tell when someones tongue is in their cheek or not. A simple symbol may save a bent feeling or stop a fight before it can begin.

My religion is simple and easy: Be fair, help anyone who needs its if you can and they want your help, Don't evangelize, give them a second chance and don't expect to recieve anymore than you give.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Jon W.
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 07:52 PM

Yeah, let's not get over serious about this. Although I still maintain that Tolkien was more serious about it than he generally let on.

Yes I've read the Silmarillion five times (at least). It took about four times through just to figure out what it was about, though. There are a couple of really good poems in there that ought to be set to (folk) music.

BTW I'm neither Catholic nor Protestant and therefore I consider neither the Pope nor the Bible infallible.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 09:16 PM

DonMeinxer: You said, "They are great stories that entertain and along the way teach one message. Goodness will defeat badness. Over time it always has."

That can ALWAYS be true as long as you don't bother to define 'good' and 'bad' since without that definition, our interpretations are arbitrary. Where, for example, has the more popular idea of good won out over the popular idea of bad relative to the treatment of Native Americans?? Get my point?

Lyle

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: DonMeixner
Date: 27 Dec 01 - 10:45 PM

Good and Bad are not a point of view. That which is truly good and truly bad are obvious to all rational minds on an elemental level. Is it good the way that the American Indian was treated by the White European land robbers? No. Not all white Europeans were bad or treated the indigenous Americans badly. Not all American Indians were stoic and honorable men either, some where very bad. And regarding the good verses bad of this meeting of peoples, the finality of it hasn't occurred yet. Good (The right of it) will win out, I have some faith in that. But isn't this getting a long way from a few works of fantasy?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 06:40 PM

Geez, Spaw...have a smile and a coke and shut the fuck up, eh? :-)

Don W. - I think your original post about Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn was right on! These are universal themes of heroism and self-sacrifice, and Tolkien clothed them in beautiful language. It is these very attributes which ennoble and save humanity and lead us on to greater things. Bravo!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Barky
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 06:48 PM

I think that they're both awesome movies, both well done. Obviously, the Tolkien movie was a bit of a let down at the end, 'cause it's going to be a trilogy, and ya don't see how it ends, but they're both beautiful (although, I'm not much of a fan of Elijah Wood, who plays Frodo). And Harry Potter is awesome. I can't wait for the fifth book to come out!

~Barky

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 06:49 PM

Well I did Hawk, even had a couple of cookies with it too and then I read:

"It is these very attributes which ennoble and save humanity and lead us on to greater things. Bravo!"

and now I've tossed my cookies..............geeziz........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 07:25 PM

Maybe it's an inner ear problem...try lying down, putting a cold compress on your head, and breathe deeply for a few minutes...

Feel better?

I find listening to David Bowie singing "Space Oddity" quite calming in stressful moments too, but I think you already knew about that.

Well, if there's anything else I can do to help, feel free to pm me.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 02:04 AM

To support a bit what Jon said, Tolkein was conscious that the LOTR was a fundamentally Catholic work, and wrote in some of his letters that it got more consciously religious as he wrote it. So it's not a coincidence at all that each heroic character has christ-like attributes.

At the same time, I agree with people who ask: who cares what conservative Christians, liberal Jews, or Libertarian Buddhists prefer? I'm old enough to decide for myself which I like better--in fact I like the movies about the same.

And I especially agree with those who have ceased to read my post and are offering their tonsil-gods some sweet libations about now...

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 06:06 AM

Jon W's comments were interesting and well thought out indeed. Though as for LOTR being a Catholic work, I would have expected there to be more of a strong and central female influence than I ever detected in it.

Or is there one?

Subject: RE: BS: Religious conserv. prefer Frodo to Harry
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 10:45 AM

Let's not overly romanticize how central the female influence is to the Catholic faith, please.

The rights of Catholic women before Vatican II were about equivalent to the rights of Muslim women in many country today, right on down to covering our heads, veiling, not making eye contact with men, and nun's habits. And to this day, the religious men and women of the Catholic church are required by church law to be celibate for life after taking their vows.

Not exactly what I'd call a positive female influence, thank you very much.