Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)

Subject: song search....Andrew rose
From: alanKH
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 02:52 PM

Here we go again...I am looking for the song andrew rose..preferably by Mike Harding..I have never seen it on one of his LP's..I heard it while serving in Nepal and it was on one of the "folk on the BBC"recordings that we got for BFBS in those days. But never been able to find it since..Any catters out there got any ideas...I know the lyrics and tune..to both Andrew Rose and Andrew Ross..just want to be able to get the Mike Harding version if at all possible.

Alan

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: GUEST, NOMADman
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 03:52 PM

I don't know about Mike Harding, but this song was recorded by Tony Hall on an LP titled "Fieldvole Music" on the Free Reed label. I don't know if anyone has reissued this on CD.

Regards
John

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 03:53 PM

It seems that Mike Harding got this song from Joanna Colcord's Songs of American Sailormen; text and tune are in the DT, here:  ANDREW ROSE.  There is also an Orkney set in the DT:  ANDREW ROSS.

I haven't been able to find any reference to a recording of either song by Mike Harding, but both Tony Hall and Peter Bellamy recorded Andrew Rose; the former on Fieldvole Music (Free Reed FRR012, 1976); the latter as part of The Maritime England Suite , made for BBC Radio 3 in 1982.  There was at least one "Folk on Friday" LP compilation; though, so perhaps someone round here remembers more.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 05:03 PM

Certainly, Tony Hall released it on Fieldvole Music...A Brilliant LP....Destined never to see the light of day sadly
Haven't heard Peter Bellamys version, would like to though.
Ralphie

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: GUEST,Folkmonster
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM

From the Fieldvole sleeve notes:

Andrew Rose is printed in Capt. B. Whall'S fine old book Sea Songs and Shanties. The story it tells is horrible but true. Stan Hugill, the noted shantyman and writer on sea-lore, tells us, "The episode took place around 1845. The ship was called The Martha and Jane which is shortened in the song to make it come in rhyme, and I have the actual ship's log which relates to this tale. It seems that The Martha and Jane was short of a crewman and a Captain when near the West Indies, so they shipped aboard Andrew Rose and Captain Rogers at Barbados to make up a full complement. These two had despised each other even when on shore, and when on board the hatred grew and Capt. Rogers' torture and unspeakable degradation of Rose began. Andrew Rose was a deeply religious man who continually sang Methodist hymns during the voyage, aggravating the Captain yet more.

Capt. Rogers was hung for his crimes in Walton Jail-in fact he was the first to hang in the new Walton Jail, built to replace the old one which had stood down by the docks. The Mates during the voyage were not punished." Stan Hugill also recollects seeing a commemorative wax statue to Andrew Rose during his youth in a Liverpool dockside Waxworks.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: GUEST,Nancy-Jean
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 06:37 PM

This song appears in the Helen Hartness Flanders Ballad Collection--twice, from singers in Maine. I heard one of the field recordings recently (at the Library of Congress). Whipping, mangling, gagging and strangling mentioned. Gruesome tale.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Stewie
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 08:41 PM

I have the Tony Hall record, but I know this song best from another recording, and it is now bugging me that I can't place it. I can hear MacColl singing it in my head but I can't find it on any of his records that I have in my collection. It may be from one of the Critics albums on Argo, tapes of which I have somewhere. Does anyone know of a MacColl recording of this song or am I just imagining it?

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Dec 01 - 09:30 PM

Roy Palmer examined the historical background to this song in an article in English Dance and Song (vol. 51 no. 3, 1989); it's a true story, more or less.  There's also a set in the Greig-Duncan collection, noted from one T.S. Towers, probably around 1906, which is very close to the Orkney set in the DT.

It's certainly the kind of song that MacColl would have relished, and he wouldn't even have needed to produce a hitherto unknown tune for it from "family sources"...

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Stewie
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 12:57 AM

I found it finally. It is on The Critics 'Ye Mariners All' Argo LP. Unfortunately, on the tape I made of this decades ago, I did not record the record number or personnel, but it is definitely MacColl singing. The album is excellent, as were others by this group such as 'The Female Frolic', 'Waterloo Peterloo', 'Sweet Thames Flow Softly', 'As We Were a'Sailing' etc. It would be great if some of them were reissued on CD.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: alanKH
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 12:58 PM

I first heard the song in the sixties at my local club..then forgot about it untill I heard it on "the radio" in 1979..however show was a recording on a BBC record..and I dont know how old it was..I "liberated" the recording when they were being thrown out to make room for new shows, but unfortunately lost the dammed thing about 4 years later.. I do remember Mike harding singing both King Cotton and Andrew Rose on the show...and he was not the live guest..from this I assumed that he had recorded it at some stage..but have never been able to find any reference to it.. I have heard the same by MacColl..trouble is..I cant remember where or when either...its a failure of age..the little grey cells start to desintigrate and leaves us asking people on Mudcat for help...ahh well we cannot win them all..

alan

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 03:37 PM

You'll find that "Andrew Rose" was also recorded by Jim Mageean on a vinyl recording - "Of Ships...And Men."

It is apparently a true story and as a result of the cruelty imposed on a sailor Andrew Rose, the first and second mate were transported for life. The ship's master Captain Rogers was executed at Liverpool on the 11th September, 1857. It was carried out in the presence of a crowd of 50,000 people.

Incidentally, Captain Rogers was a Swansea man.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 09:44 PM

Though resident in Swansea, Henry Rogers was a native of Aberdeen (born c.1822).  He was hanged on the 12th September, 1857, outside Kirkdale Gaol; the crowd was assessed at the time as being between 20 and 40 thousand (Report in the Liverpool Mercury, 14th September 1857).  Orkney tradition has it that Ross was a native of Stronsay whose given name was John, though his father was called Andrew; records indicate that he was born in 1832, and died on the 5th June 1857.  The Andrew Ross in the DT was first published in the Orkney Herald (11th February 1925) though, as I mentioned earlier, the earliest known example seems to have been of the first decade of the 20th century.

Roy Palmer, from whose article (cited above) this information comes, suggests that Ross may have been suffering from a psychiatric disorder, consequent upon illness picked up in the West Indies ( he signed on for the passage home from Barbados); certainly, witnesses at the trail recalled his cropped hair, and assumed as much.  He appears to have suffered from occasional incontinence, too, which goes some way to explaining some of the details of the way he was treated.

Palmer's enquiries of Orkney families believed to be connected to Ross were unfruitful; nobody seemed to want to be associated with this sordid event, which is understandable.  It certainly appears that news of John/Andrew's death did not reach Orkney straight away (except via court reports which did not fully identify him); there is a tradition that the song was sung at a wedding at Eday where his sister was present, and that she fainted on realising whom it concerned.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 04:49 AM

I took my info' regarding Andrew Rose from the sleeve notes of Jim Mageean's recording. It was from an excerpt of "The Times", September 1857.

It is intriguing to note that the "Fieldvole notes on Tony Hall's record (See GUEST:Folkmonster), that the two mates were not punished.

Anyway it was interesting to discover so much more about this shocking episode from the notes here. Particularly the interest on the American side of the Atlantic. Thanks guys for enlightening me.

By the way do any of you possess Jim Mageean's recording "Of Ships...And Men"? It's on the 'Greenwich Village' label which is probably deleted now.

Dave R.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Dec 01 - 10:53 AM

The mates, Miles and Seymour, were tried and convicted with Rogers; all three were sentenced to death, but the mates' sentences were commuted to transportation.

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 09:26 AM

Refresh!

Subject: RE: song search....Andrew rose
From: GUEST,Les/ Manchester uk
Date: 31 Dec 01 - 01:38 PM

What a song!

I first heard it on a Topic EP (extended player -5 tracks I think). First released in the early 60's, the other tracks may hace been

1. A young Sailor cut down in his prime>BR> 2. Blood red roses

Sorry the rest escape me

What may surprise is that one of the singers was Harry H. Corbet who went on to be Son of Steptoe and Son. I think he had spent time in th Unity Theatre etc. and perhaps had come under the inlfuence of one Jimmy Miller

Anyone connect with this?

Subject: Lyr Add: THE ORDEAL OF ANDREW ROSE
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:35 PM

Lyr. Add: The Ordeal of Andrew Rose

Come all you bold undaunted seamen,
Come listen a while to what I'm saying,
I will sing you of a cruel murder
That happened on board of the Martha Jane.

Oh now think on his cruel tortures,
He had no friends for to interpose,
Where they whipped and mangled, gagged and strangled
The British sailor named Andrew Rose.

The captain swore he would ill-use him
Seven long days before the time,
Then the cruel mate and the cruel captain
They then commenced at their bloody crime.

'Twas up aloft they sent that victim,
He was naked to the burning sun,
Then the cruel mate he flogged him after,
He flogged him till his blood in streams did run.

In an empty water-cask they put him,
Seven long days they kept him there,
And so pitiful he begged for water,
But our cruel captain would let none come near.

Then the captain and mate they made him swallow
Things on earth I cannot name,
And all of our crew fell sick with sorrow
Wlilst on board of the Martha Jane.

Then the captain trained his dog to bite him,
He not knowing what he would get,
And he bit and tore him, served him barbarous,
There were mouthfuls laying upon our deck.

And when his sores commenced to fester,
His legs and back and his sides likewise,
Then poor old Rose he could live no longer,
He lay down on the fore-hatch and died.

Oh now think on his cruel tortures,
He had no friends to interpose,
Where they whipped and they mangled, gagged and strangled
The British sailor named Andrew Rose.

Now for six long weeks we sailed the ocean,
Then our ship in Liverpool arrived,
But as soon as the justice came for to know it
He said,"Captain Rogers now you must die."

"Here stands my wife and children beside me,
Here stands my wife and children three,
I will leave them all now for my conduct,
For it's hung I'll be on the gallows tree."

Mrs. Mary Ann Galpin, Codroy, Nfld., 1960.
Kenneth Peacock, 1965, "Songs of the Newfoundland Outports," vol. 3, pp. 825-826, with music.

The record of the trial, verdict reached Sept. 12, 1857, was published in 1857 by Lewis and Son, London. "Trial for the Wilful Murder on the high seas of Andrew Rose, a seaman..." (part of the typical long title). Copy in Lillian Goldman Law Library (along with other papers).
Correct names, from the book on the trial- Andrew Rose, Captain Henry Rogers, and two mates, William Miles and Charles E. Seymour. Rogers was hanged, Miles and Seymour were transported. Rose had died on the 5th of June, 1857. The ship was "The Martha and Jane."
Also see 84589, "Happy" Happy Sept 12
Song not known before 1900. Other versions in the DT.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:21 AM

"Certainly, Tony Hall released it on Fieldvole Music...A Brilliant LP....Destined never to see the light of day sadly"

Strange that so many of us seem to have heard it! Mind you, my copy went missing - perhaps Topic withdrew it!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:24 AM

Ah Dr Manitas.
Nice to see old threads popping up from time to time.
What I meant to say on the 28th Dec 2001 was
"Destined never to be re-issued"!!
Let this be a warning to all. Careful what you write here. It may come back and bite you one day!
Still one of my fave recordings though.

Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: Little Robyn
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:36 AM

Mike Stanley recorded it here in NZ over 20 years ago, on his record, Farewell to the days of sail.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:17 AM

http:// The Singing Sailor
Harry H Corbett was involved with Joan Littlewood's Theatre workshop, and Jimmy Miller [aka Ewan McColl] was her then husband, so that's probably where they met. Ewan went on to marry the mother of Kirsty, Jean Newlove, but left her for Peggy Seeger in about 1956. The rest as they say, is history.
Giok

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:19 AM

Oops The Singing Sailor
G

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 07:36 AM

I found this thread when I was checking the words to 'Andrew Rose.' I have the Topic EP mentioned by Guest Les/ManchesterUK. It's TOP 27 and is by Stan Kelly and called 'Liverpool Packet.' It was issued in 1958. The songs on it are:

Maggy May
Lowlands Away
Way Haul Away
Sailor Cut Down in his Prime
Andrew Rose
Hullabaloo Belay.

Leon Rosselson is on guitar, accordeon and banjo, and Geoff Rose is on accordeon and banjo.

The record with Blood Red Roses on it (and Harry H Corbett singing Blow the Man DOwn)is Topic T7, and is an 8" LP entitled Row Bullies, Row. I still have it!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: MARINER
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 10:36 AM

The song ,sung by Stan Kelly is also on the Topic CD ,Sailors songs and Sea shanties .Well, it's Highpoint Recordings issued under licence from Topic.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 10:48 AM

Stan Hugill sang Andrew Rose on any number of occasions at the Mystic Seaport Sea Music Festival. No one could deliver this song like Stan. A truly animated singular character.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 04:39 PM

From The Annual Register, Or, A View of the History and Politics of the Year 1857, Volume 99 (London: F. & J. Rivington, 1858), page 158:


20. MURDER ON THE HIGH SEAS.—Liverpool Assizes.—Another instance of the brutal excesses into which the possession of unlimited power will lead men of ill-regulated minds, and of the need which British seamen may sometimes have of the protection of the law against the violence and tyranny of their own officers, has been exhibited by the circumstances which led to Henry Rogers, William Miles, and Charles Edward Seymour being indicted for the murder of Andrew Rose, between the 11th of May and the 5th of June in this year. Henry Rogers was master, William Miles chief mate, and Charles Edward Seymour second mate of the ship on board which the offence was committed. The deceased was an able seaman on board the same vessel—the Martha Jane. She was a British ship, owned at Sunderland, and had sailed from Hartlepool last year to Calcutta, where there was a change of masters. From Calcutta, she came on the homeward voyage to Demerara, and after leaving Demerara she put into Barbadoes to repair, where another change taking place, Henry Rogers became the master of the ship. While the vessel was lying at Barbadoes, Andrew Rose, the deceased, also entered as an able seaman, and signed the ship's articles. Soon after Rose came on board the ship, he was put to do duty by the second mate, who found fault with him and beat him so severely that he was advised by some of the crew to leave the ship, and he accordingly ran away. He was away from the ship for several days; but on the 9th or 10th of May he was brought back by the police, and put in irons. The vessel sailed on the 11th of May. At that time he appears to have been released from irons; but the day after the vessel sailed he was again beaten by Seymour and the chief mate with a rope's-end whip, and the captain also beat him on that day. From that day until the last act which terminated in death, he was flogged by one or other of the prisoners almost every day. The deceased, when he went on board ship, was apparently an able seaman and in good health; but he had his hair close cropped, and there was reason, from that and from his conduct, to surmise that his intellect had been in some measure deranged. He was fond of singing, and one Sunday morning, soon after the ship had sailed, although in irons, he was heard singing, "Oh, let us be joyful." The captain bade him be silent, and saying "I will make you sorrowful," thrust an iron bolt into his mouth. The chief and second mate then tied it round with rope behind his head, and he was kept with that gag in his mouth for about an hour and a half. The captain had a dog on board, and he taught the dog to bite the deceased, so that, when he came forward to whip the deceased, the dog would fly at him and bite his legs and feet. Upon one occasion the dog bit out a piece of flesh. Upon another occasion, the deceased was sent aloft to furl a sail, and when he came down he was sent up again. He was naked at the time, and as he went up the chief mate followed him, and whipped him so severely that the blood run from several wounds. The deceased laboured under an infirmity which disabled him from containing his excretions, and upon one occasion, when he was in irons, he asked leave to go forward for that purpose. He was refused by one of the mates, upon which he relieved himself on the deck. After a beating from both the mate and the captain, the captain ordered two men to hold the deceased down on his back, and with an iron pin forced the excrement of the deceased into his mouth. He forced open his mouth with the iron pin, and thrust it up his nose, saying, "Is it nice?" and "You shall have more of it," until those who were called on to assist shrank away, unable to witness the revolting scene. A day or two after the same thing occurred. Upon another occasion the captain called the carpenter to knock the head out of a small water cask, and as the carpenter was not quick enough the captain and mates did it themselves. They then brought the deceased Rose to the cask, put him into it, and bade him crouch down. They fastened the head on the cask, and turned it, and they then rolled it backwards and forwards, the deceased being inside. They then lashed the water cask to the side of the ship, and there he remained from 12 at noon till 12 at night. While there he begged for water, and expressed great distress; and on one of the men going to him and giving him a little pea-soup, the captain was very angry, and turned the man away. The last occasion on which he suffered, the deceased was told by the captain, "Rose, I wish you would either drown or hang yourself." Rose answered, "I wish you would do it for me," upon which the captain and the two mates took him to the mainmast. They got a rope and put it over his neck, with a "timber hitch," and hoisted him up, so that his feet were three feet from the deck. When he had been suspended for about two minutes, his face became black, his eyes protruded from their sockets, froth came from his mouth. He was then lowered, and the moment his feet touched the deck he fell flat as if he were dead, and the captain was heard to say by one of the crew, that if they had kept him there half a minute longer he would have been dead. After this his health sank rapidly. The crew got him down to the forecastle, but he was so crazy that they were obliged to tie his hands. He remained in the forecastle a day or two, and on the morning of the 5th of June they carried him from the forecastle on to the deck to wash him. The deceased could scarcely crawl. He lay down on the deck with his head towards the hatchway, and his feet to the scuppers. In that position, with the sea-water over his legs, he died. The state he was in at that time was this:—He had wounds all over his body from the beatings and ill-usage he had received. His wounds had festered to such a degree that, when the captain ordered his body to be brought aft, the crew were loth to touch him. They dragged him aft with a rope, and in about an hour afterwards, by order of the captain, he was thrown overboard. The ship made land next morning, and arrived at Liverpool on the 9th of June. Information was given and the captain and mates were arrested.

The facts above narrated were fully proved in all their sickening details by the other seamen, and medical testimony having been produced to prove that such barbarities were in themselves sufficient to cause death, or, if the deceased was labouring under any disease at the time they were inflicted, they would necessarily have hastened its fatal termination, the jury found all the three prisoners guilty, and they were sentenced to be hanged. Great exertions were made by certain humane persons to obtain a commutation of the sentence, which were successful with respect to the two mates, but Captain Rogers was executed at Liverpool on the 11th of September, in the presence of a crowd which was computed at 50,000 persons. He displayed great firmness and penitence in his last moments. The sentence passed on the two mates was commuted to penal servitude for life.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: GUEST,Kieran Wade
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:28 AM

Going back to the original post: I was a student in Manchester in the early 70's and a group I was in were the resident opening act for a while at the Golden Lion folk club.
Mike Harding was the main act one night and he sang "Andrew Rose", the same version as in the DT.
The show was recorded for their folk programme by BBC Radio Manchester, so maybe that was the original source for the recording heard by alanKH.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: Hagman
Date: 24 Sep 18 - 10:36 PM

Cohen Braithwaite-Kilcoyne has recorded a ripping version on his 2017 CD "Outway Songster." He credits Tony Hall and then Damien Barber and Mike Wilson as recording influences, and Roy Palmer's 'Oxford Book of Sea Songs' as lyric source.

Fabulous CD, for both the singing and the melodeon/anglo concertina playing.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 10:25 AM

I believe that the song, as now sung, was introduced into the revival through its appearance on the Caedmon album, "Sailormen and Serving Maids" (1961), as sung by John and Ethel Findlater of Dounby, Orkney.

The Findlaters were recorded in 1955 by Peter Kennedy.

And here they are:

https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-MSMUS1771X1X-0412V0

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Andrew Rose (from Mike Harding)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Sep 18 - 10:48 AM

Joe Stead recorded it, could have been with Kimbers Men but my memory fails me.

Dave H