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Anybody got a euro key on their keypad?
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:27 PM Alors tiens! I like having a common currency with my neighbours. If they try to get me into their army I'll shoot them. My own government is much fonder of snatching away rights than Europe is - and my British neighbours' government is fonder still of depriving its citizens of rights. By the way, did anyone notice that the Americans are proposing to demand biometric passports - with fingerprints or other genetic ID - of all incomers? If they do that I won't be visiting America, or knowingly buying any goods from American companies again. Now, we were talking about freedom, or was that money? |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: GUEST Date: 03 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM Try as they might the British media could not find a fault with the very smooth changeover to the Euro. C`mon you limeys, throw away your wee Union Jacks and join the real World. Patsy Richbitchksi. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Red Eye Date: 03 Jan 02 - 01:13 PM Got to admit after following this thread that the Euro is for me. eg: Looking to buy a new RHD BMW, Germany €20,000, France €23,000, Ireland €29,000, Italy €27,000, Just an example of how I can compare prices with other nations for the SAME car. This will also relate to other goods in a retailing outlet. The customer will go where the price is best and they are all on a level playing field. If a country keeps it's economic house in order that will relate to the prices being offered to the consumer and lead to an increase in business for that country.
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Bill D Date: 03 Jan 02 - 03:40 PM yup, Red Eye...sorta what I said back up ^ there, and a couple have repeated in various ways..... It just allows easy comparison and exchange By the way JTT...in regard to "By the way, did anyone notice that the Americans are proposing to demand biometric passports - with fingerprints or other genetic ID - of all incomers? If they do that I won't be visiting America, or knowingly buying any goods from American companies again.".......I do wonder what you'd suggest that America should be allowed to do for protection? We are a huge, fairly open country that has become a popular target for hate & terror. We don't think that those who wish to kill & destroy should be given easy access, but mind reading at checkpoints seems to still be unavailable. We are in danger largely because we HAVE been open and welcoming...we can't keep everyone out, and we dare not let everyone in! Do you have a suggestion for screening that is fair, yet useful?......... |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM Most of the people who kill Americans tend to be Americans. Most of the violent maniacs and fanatics in America tend to be Americans. That's not picking on Americans, it's the same for pretty well any other country. If biometric identity stuff or whatever is seen as the only way to stop terrorism, it's no good just saving it for incomers.
I assume if thye are planninhg to bring in that kind of thing for incomers, that'sjust a way of softening-up people, before is introduced for your native population.
Whatever we do about frontiers, in Europe or America, the truth is it's just one permeable world. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Blackcatter Date: 03 Jan 02 - 06:10 PM To me the scarry thing for all of us Americans who have various left-over European currencies from our vacations. I've got, let's see... 2 marks, 12 francs, 1 Irish pound, 50,000 lire (WOO-HOO - 50,000!), 19 drachma, and more. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Ringer Date: 04 Jan 02 - 04:29 AM I see that the British press today is full of a story which backs up what I said above. Gus O'Donnell, the Treasury's chief of macro-economic policy (!), and the guy who'll be responsible for assessing the famous "5 tests", is reported as having said that economic tests can never be clear and unambiguous, and that any decision will be based on political, not economic, criteria. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Jan 02 - 07:58 AM I sent a test email from Eudora on my Mac to Outlook on a work PC, and the Mac Eudora euro sign (option-shift-2) didn't come through to Outlook; nor did it come through when I copied the email into Word. It'll be interesting to see what programs can handle it. What do I think Americans should be allowed to do? Well, people should be able to buy duty-free *at the port of entry*, not the port of exit, so bottles aren't carried on planes, for a start. All baggage should be properly checked, and there should be a limit on the amount people can carry on a short flight - people using planes like buses should carry only hand-luggage. Seats should face backwards, which is safer in a crash. Seatbelts should be augmented by airbags. Really mad-seeming people like the poor soul arrested trying to blow up his shoes, who even to me as a non-expert is clearly as crazy as a kish of coots, should be checked a little more thoroughly. The level of checking currently done on planes is made clear by yesterday's British claim that an average 20 passengers on every flight from Jamaica are carrying drugs, with an average flight carrying dozens of kilos of cocaine. Apart from this, I think America seriously needs to rethink its economic and political policies. Now, don't think I want people bombing and hurting Americans, indeed I do not, and grieve for those who died on September 11. But the middle-class, nicely-brought-up boys who are turning into suicide bombers are not doing so for no reason - but because they believe that America is a terrible political and economic entity which does great harm. Now, back to the euro? |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM What's scary about that Blackcatter? If there are sizeable amounts of money, you just pay them in to the bank and they'll change them. It it's just small change, pass them across to some charity which is collecting it with a view to doing the same.
Up till the end of February there shouldn't be any hassles at all about changing the money. After that it shouldn't be hard up until the end of the year - for example Bureaux de Change in British Airports will change currencies up till December 31st. After that itll be harder, but there'll be arrangements to allow for hoards of the old banknotes turning up in Granny's old rocking chair. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Ringer Date: 04 Jan 02 - 10:04 AM "Criticism of the European Union is akin to blasphemy and could be restricted without violating freedom of speech," - Advocate-General at the European Court of Justice (in case C-274/99) The self-inflated arrogance of these posturing buffoons takes my breath away. It would be laughable were it not so dangerous. The procedings of this case, incidentally, were not published in English by the EU. I hazard a guess that it was because they were aware of the furore it would cause in Britain.
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Jan 02 - 11:14 AM For those who want to judge themselves: European court case C-274/99 (in English, by the way) Look it up, read the case, search for 'blasphemy' and you'll see that Bald Eagle's citation is (1) far from being verbatim and (2) not even a fair summary of what was said.
Wolfgang ---Jeff (PA)--- |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jan 02 - 12:53 PM That quote from the Advocate General - there are pillocks like that in every government in every country. Real politics is about organising to get rid of them, and it has to be done repeatedly, like flies in the kitchen. I can't see how any law trying to ban people from criticising the European Union could stand up in court any more in Europe than it would, in America.
Unless of course the court was packed with bent and subservient judges, as can happen. But that kind of thing is probably easier to achieve in a nation state anyway. (An Advocate General is a lawyer, not a judge. Lawyers are there to try to twist the law to suit their clients, and that includes government lawyers.) |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Bill D Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:25 PM Netscape would not display the URL Wolfgang posted and cut off the rest of the thread, I presume there was some flaw in it...I copied and pasted it from 'view source'...lets see if it works here is the rest of his post, which was blinking in 'view source'
"Look it up, read the case, search for 'blasphemy' and you'll see that Bald Eagle's citation is (1) far from being verbatim and (2) not even a fair summary of what was said." |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Bill D Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:36 PM Well, Opera gave me the rest of the thread, with the 'missing' parts still missing, but although the URL is now posted, it is not replying. "document contains no data" ..sorta like Mudcat on occasion... |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Hawker Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:46 PM Well Bugger me! Yes I Have!!!! I was convinced that I wouldn't have such a key and to be honest I wasn't really too worried! I am still in feet and inches, pounds and stones etc.!!!! Lucy |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jan 02 - 02:46 PM Here is a link to the court's judgement in that case which puts a different slant on the affair.
The court ruled that a public servant writing a book about the organisation they are employed by, in this case the European Commission, has to ask permission before doing so, and that the bloke in this case had not done so and was therefore at fault.
However it also said that if he had asked permission it would probably have been illegal for the Commission to have refused permission, even if it had wanted to. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Jan 02 - 03:35 PM It feels awful to make a mistake and due to that mistake being even not able to post about it in that thread. Thanks for the help, Bill, and thanks to Pene who has restored my ability to post here. My link doesn't work for me now, but thanks to McGrath you now can read the press release about the judgement and if I don't mess up again the actual judgement in that case (which of course has been translated into English as is any opinion in those cases contrary to what Bald Eagle has stated). I had found the English translation of the opinion of the advocate general in that case (which I tried to link to above) and I can only say that in this case the reporting of parts of the British press is to blame completely. The applicant, Connolly, was the one who introduced a blasphemy case in his appeal in order to argue that except in cases of blasphemy the right of free speech cannot be restricted. The advocate general had to respond to that argument brought forward by the applicant. I have seen nothing remotely similar in content to the above citation. In contrary, he upheld explicitely the general right of any person to criticise openly the European commission or its decisions. Mr. Connolly, however, was an employee openly and harshly criticising his employer and was dismissed for that critique. That is what the case was about with the additional twist that the critique titled The Rotten Heart of Europe · The Dirty War for Europe's Money was published during a short leave for personal reasons. I wonder how the Britsh press might react if a high ranking employee of the British government would publish during a short leave a book The rotten heart of Downing Street openly criticising by name several sectretaries and the Prime Minister and their decisions and would then sue against his dismissal with the argument that only blasphemy is forbidden and Blair isn't God and therefore can be criticised by anybody at any time. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Jan 02 - 05:16 PM It is a bit difficult to find in a local server of the EC and perhaps that's why the link doesn't work as I wanted. I'll try again: Opinion of Advocate General Colomer in Case C-274/99P. In case it doesn't work here are parts of the opinion of Colomer including each single sentence with the word(s) 'blasph...' in it: Whilst on leave, Mr Connolly published a book entitled The Rotten Heart of Europe - The Dirty War for Europe's Money without requesting prior permission as required by the second paragraph of Article 17 of the Staff Regulations.... Freedom of expression is one of the fundamental pillars of any democracy. As the Court of Human Rights has stated in one of the finest passages found in its case-law: 'Freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of [a democratic society], one of the basic conditions for its progress and for the development of every man. Subject to paragraph 2 of Article 10, it is applicable not only to information or ideas that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb the State or any sector of the population. Such are the demands of thatpluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness without which there is no democratic society.... It seems to me beyond doubt that the disciplinary measure imposed on the appellant, in so far as it is founded partly on his failure to obtain permission prior to publication, constitutes, in principle, an interference with his right to freedom of expression understood in the general sense.... Like the appellant, I turn, by way of illustration, to the judgment of the Court of Human Rights in Wingrove v United Kingdom. (5) On that occasion the Court had to consider whether the refusal of a distribution licence for a video, which was considered to be blasphemous, interfered with the right to freedom of expression upheld in Article 10 of the Convention. It appears from the judgment that English law defined the offence of blasphemy in the following terms: 'Every publication is said to be blasphemous which contains any contemptuous, reviling, scurrilous or ludicrous matter relating to God, Jesus Christ or the Bible, or the formularies ofthe Church of England as by law established. (6) The imprecision of that definition did not hamper the Court of Human Rights in forming a view as to foreseeability. On the contrary, it acknowledged that the national authorities needed sufficient flexibility to enable them to assess whether certain facts fell within the definition of the offence.... Furthermore, the Court of Human Rights has somewhat softened its approach when assessing whether an objective is legitimate, analysing a breach of the Convention by reference to, in particular, whether it is necessary in a democratic society. It is sufficient to turn once again to Wingrove, in which the Court of Human Rights held that the offence of blasphemy, which was by its definition discriminatory in that it was limited to protecting the Anglican church and its beliefs, pursued an aim which undoubtedly corresponded to the 'protection of the rights of others within the meaning of Article 10(2).... Furthermore, as the defendant has pointed out, the Commission, in punishing Mr Connolly's conduct in accordance with the second paragraph of Article 17, was acting not as a public body protecting its reputation against a member of the public but as the employer of an official who has breached his duty of loyalty and rendered himself liable to disciplinary measures.... It is thus clear that the Court of First Instance, when considering whether the disciplinary measure of removal from post, so far as it was based on Article 17 of the Staff Regulations, was compatible with the requirements of freedom of expression, took account of relevant and adequate reasons and rightly found that the measure was proportionate.... I must start by saying that I share the appellant's aversion to rules which, more or less directly, entail the general imposition of pre-publication censorship. In my opinion, censorship may be justified only in those exceptional cases in which the misuse of freedom of expression may give rise to serious prejudice - serious in the sense of being intolerable from society's point of view - which is, moreover, irreparable.... It must be pointed out, furthermore, that contrary to what may be inferred from the appellant's submissions, the Court of Human Rights has not declared unlawful, as contrary to the Convention, even rules which result in the creation of systems of real censorship. I refer again to the legislation considered in Wingrove. The grant in the United Kingdom of a distribution licence - which could be refused if, inter alia, the video in question contravened criminal law, including the law against blasphemy - did not exempt its owner from any liability whatsoever. However, the Court of Human Rights confined itself to ruling, confirming the point of view expressed in its judgment in the case of Observer and Guardian v United Kingdom, (16) that 'the fact that the present case involves prior restraint calls for special scrutiny by the Court. (17) In addition, in the latter judgment the Court of Human Rights had declared 'for the avoidance of doubt that Article 10 does not of itself prohibit all pre-publication restrictions....[that is the closest in content I have found to the citation above, Wolfgang] I have read by now a couple of articles in the British press published at that time and I have found sentences very close or identical to what Bald Eagle has posted. I must say that I am not impressed by the ability of those journalists to summarise adequately what has been read. The opinion read was in Spanish and it should be common knowledge among journalists reporting from 'Europe' that translations to all other languages are often not available before some days have passed (in cases of staff shortage: weeks). The journalists reporting these cases should either have the ability to read the language of a particular proceeding (the language that will be used is know beforehand) or at least the ability to refind later an English translation and correct their reports then. What I could find in 15 minutes (without any knowledge before I started) should not be too difficult to trace for a journalist. Wolfgang
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: GUEST,hrothgar Date: 04 Jan 02 - 08:32 PM Yes, Wolfgang, we are familiar with that, but do you have a Euro key on your keyboard? |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 04 Jan 02 - 08:42 PM € uugh where did that come from!! |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Big John Date: 05 Jan 02 - 12:52 PM I recently purchased an EPIPHONE guitar. People who see the Epiphone logo on the guitar mistake it for a € sign. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 07 Jan 02 - 11:22 AM Where it (€) came from? Arthur Eisenmenger, the then chief designer of the EEC, has designed it for the EEC in the early 70s, but with 'Europe' in mind as meaning of this symbol. Jacques Santer, then president of the European commission, in 1997 introduced the € as a sign for Euro and said it represents a mixture of the greek letter epsilon as a sign for the common civilisatory roots of our countries, the letter E for Europe and two parallel lines indicating stability. Well, that's what politicians usually read from sheets others have written for them at such opportunities. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Ringer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 10:02 AM Oh dear, it looks as though I may have been wrong **shame**. I apologise, and thanks, Wolfgang & McGrath, for putting me right. Not easy reading, those decisions, are they? I think I'll continue to read digests in the press (even though I may have to come back here from time to time and apologise when my sources let me down). |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Ringer Date: 23 Jan 02 - 01:48 PM But maybe, after a bit of research, not so wrong as all that. OK, "blasphemy" may have been a red-herring, but here's a direct quotation: ...the Court of Human Rights has never accepted the view that a body which is a public authority may not legitimately limit a fundamental freedom in order to protect its reputation. The opposite seems to be the case... When you strip out the double-negative and simplify, what the man is saying is the Court of Human Rights accepts the view that a public authority may limit a fundamental freedom in order to protect its reputation. Thus, there is an opinion within the EU that you are not allowed to libel it. And the opinion doesn't say (even in context) to protect its reputation against unjustified criticism, it appears you can't even tell the truth if that truth tends to lower the EU's reputation. Oh dear. I confess that within these threads (and elsewhere) I have vilified the EU in a manner calculated to lower its reputation. I have called it corrupt (but it is corrupt), accused it of being run by bureaucrats for bureaucrats (but it is), accused its politicians of being power-mad (but they are) and its institutions and operations of being undemocratic (they certainly are). I shall continue to do so. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:35 PM there is an opinion within the EU that you are not allowed to libel it Correct, if the 'you' in that sentence is explicitely and solely read as a person on the payroll of the EU. Members of the general public are not meant by that 'you'. So, unless the EU is your employer, Bald Eagle, you may safely call it 'corrupt' and other words. If you happen to have an employer try to imagine how they would react if you'd call them e.g. 'corrupt' in public while mentioning your position as an employee. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Dave Bryant Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:46 PM The EURO key is right next to the ANY key. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Ringer Date: 24 Jan 02 - 05:15 AM Wolfgang: "whistle blowing" is not allowed in the EU, then? |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:12 AM Depends on the kind of whistle blowing. I know I'd have a hell of a time if I'd call the administration of my university in general 'corrupt'. I might barely prevent being fired by a quick apology and retraction. But if I'd call one specific person 'corrupt' with good evidence some others still might decide to make my life harder so next time I think twice before whistle blowing, but there would be no court case against me. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Ringer Date: 27 May 02 - 02:16 PM Hey, Wolfgang: in your post above (03-Jan-02 - 06:24 AM) you prophesied that prices would go down in Germany with the introduction of euro currency (because of the fortuitous exchange rate). I heard that two out of three Germans now wanted out of the "Teuro" when opinion-polled recently, because prices have increased markedly. What went wrong? P.S: I used to be Bald Eagle. |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Haruo Date: 28 May 02 - 03:27 AM € Just checking to see if I can do it. Liland |
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Subject: RE: Anybody got a euro key on their keypad? From: Wolfgang Date: 28 May 02 - 04:10 AM What I had seen then correctly was that most of the prices were going down (in supermarkets etc., like in the example from DM 1.99 to 0.99 €). What I hadn't seen then is that those prices that went up went up by a large amount (whereas those going down went down by a small amount). Prices went up especially in the service sector and in restaurants. All restaurants had waited with the printing of new menues for 1. 1. 2002. In extreme cases the prices went up by nearly factor 2 (the former DM prices became Euro prices). That's what people have in mind when complaining. When half of the prices go up and the other half go down people recollect those going up. I never have trusted what people have in mind when I can have numbers instead: The last percentual increase available in Germany averaged across all prices in April 2002 was 1.6% (compared to April 2001). This figure is well within the range of the last years before the Euro. January 2003 or December 2002, we'll have a couple of surveys on what Germans think after one year about the Euro. I'll post then the results. Wolfgang |
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