Subject: Origins: Water is Wide From: GUEST,J. Knapp Date: 02 May 00 - 06:56 PM I'm sorta pressed for time, so I can't wade through everyone's entries about this song. Sorry! I just want to know if anyone has any clue who the original composer of this song is. Cheers, Jennifer Messages from multiple threads combined. Threads on this song:
|
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: AoifeO Date: 02 May 00 - 07:34 PM Traditional? |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: bflat Date: 02 May 00 - 07:52 PM Yes, I know it to be a traditional song of the British Isles also know as: Waly Waly. |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Hotspur Date: 02 May 00 - 07:53 PM I believe it is actually part of a longer ballad, "Jamie Douglas," and as such no composer is known. |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Crowhugger Date: 03 May 00 - 04:16 AM Another residuals cheque for Anon? CH. |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Kim C Date: 03 May 00 - 10:54 AM So old nobody knows. |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: GeorgeH Date: 04 May 00 - 10:30 AM At least one version is largely comprised of floating verses, so "various, anon" would seem to fit? G |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: GUEST,marcelloblues Date: 04 May 00 - 07:20 PM A few years ago, after listening to an U2 version, I was told that the original one was from James Taylor, don't know much about it. May this be a clue... Cheers |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 04 May 00 - 08:31 PM I think that somebody was winding you up, unless James Taylor is a couple of hundred years old... Malcolm |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Crowhugger Date: 04 May 00 - 09:42 PM ...more than a couple of hundred I'd wager. CH. |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Amergin Date: 04 May 00 - 09:46 PM I may be wrong, but I believe it's a Childe Ballad. Amergin |
Subject: RE: Help: Water is Wide From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 04 May 00 - 10:53 PM That's Child, Francis J. It may seem like nit-picking, but knowing how he spelt his own name will help a lot if you need to search for references. Jamie Douglas is Child number #204, for what that's worth, but as George H. pointed out earlier, The Water is Wide and Waly Waly are probably just songs made up of "floating verses", and not related to that song except insofar as they share a bit of text. A search of the DT for Waly will get you quite a lot of information, for a start. Malcolm |
Subject: 'Water is wide' From: GUEST,gerry.s@netunltd.com.au Date: 24 Jan 01 - 06:59 AM Hi from Fremantle in Western Australia, I'm trying to find the origin of the song 'Water is wide' and hopefully the lyric writer. Just recently I found the lyrics at Mudcat after listening to the song by Indigo Girls/Jewel/Sarah MacLachlan on a CD 'Lilith Fair' Hope someone can help, the lyrics are so beautiful. Gerry |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: Jon Freeman Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:16 AM Hi Gerry, I will point you towards this post made by Malcolm Douglas. I haven't followed the links but I feel pretty sure that the links he has given will provide you with a wealth of information. Jon |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: English Jon Date: 24 Jan 01 - 09:17 AM As far as I know the oldest versions are scottish, (Waly Waly) although the one everyone knows was collected in Somerset. Interesting song, particularly all that business about the oak... more layers than an onion. |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: Garry Gillard Date: 25 Jan 01 - 09:07 AM Hi, fellow Fremantle-dweller! Yes, this has always been one of my favourite song-groups, which I first thought of as "The water is wide", then as incorporating "I wish, I wish", then just about anything else with the same scansion. ... Tho I've never actually SUNG "waly waly" in any of the verses I know... |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: kendall Date: 25 Jan 01 - 07:44 PM A "blind" fiddler sang and played this in the film, The Bounty, to cover the noise of the seamen fighting. Excellent film. Stars were Anthony Hopkins, Mel Gibson and Leeam Kneeson (sic) |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: Julia Date: 27 Jan 01 - 05:55 PM I have a version of this called "The Irish Boy" from Southwest Scotland (Galloway) all about an Irish farm worker who comes to Galloway passing himself off as Scots, romances the girl then leaves. Given the situation and the geography, the song really takes on new meaning. |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: Amos Date: 27 Jan 01 - 08:02 PM Numerous prior threads on "Waly, Waly" and "Water Is Wide" can be found on the backtrack -- it's a perennial around here. A |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: Nynia Date: 27 Jan 01 - 08:04 PM Julia I'm in Dumfries, SW Scotland. could you please post or PM me your version I'd be very interested to see the lyrics Nynia. |
Subject: Lyr Add: THE IRISH BOY (from Phyllis Martin) From: Julia Date: 27 Jan 01 - 10:05 PM THE IRISH BOY Tune: The Water is Wide Learned from Phyllis Martin, Dalbeattie Scotland She learned it from her mother who is in her 80's Phyllis sings with the group "Stravaig" Her e-mail is phyllismartin56@hotmail.com
Chorus:
1)
2) |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: GUEST,JB the Folkie Sailor Date: 28 Jan 01 - 02:42 AM Kendall, The 'Blind Fiddler' in the 'Bounty' was played by Barry Dransfield who, with his brother Robin, was a major star of the UK Folk Revival in the '70's. He is not blind, but he is a brilliant fiddler, celloist, guitarist and singer. I saw him perform two or three years ago at the Royal Oak pub in Grimsby, England and he was simply stunning. Anyone out there know what Barry's doing now???? And yes, we sang the song at school and it's title in the book was 'O Waly Waly' JBTFS |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:20 AM Another beautiful member of this 'song family' is Will Ye Gang Love And Leave Me Noo. |
Subject: RE: Help: 'Water is wide' From: sadie damascus Date: 28 Jan 01 - 04:22 PM "Waly Waly" is actually a descendant of Child 204, "Jamie Douglas". It has come to share many general love-song verses, acquiring folkway quatrains that scan and keep the tears coming. Try all the verses from "Every night when the sun goes in" or "Down in the valley".
|
Subject: The Water Is Wide (Waly Waly) From: GUEST,skyvista scot Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:53 PM I've had some recent luck with this site in finding lyrics and tune to The Water is Wide. There is also refererence to an earlier song, Waly Waly (Jamie Douglas). Any information on where I can buy the sheet music (anthology, whatever) would be appreciated. Also would like to read more about song's origin. Thanks |
Subject: Lyr Add: O WALY, WALY UP THE BANK From: weepiper Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:11 PM Hi, This song is in a book which has just come out called 'The Scots Fiddle - Volume 2: Tunes, Tales and Traditions of the Lothians Borders and Ayrshire' by J. Murray Neil. Make sure it's the new one though as this set was originally published as a single volume and has been added to a lot so I'm not sure the one you want would be in the earlier one. He doesn't give it an author though. The version he gives is from William McGibbon's 'A collection of Scots tunes for the Violin or German Flute' 1762, but he describes it as very ancient. Here are the words he gives for it: O waly, waly up the bank, and waly, waly down the brae, and waly, waly, yon burnside, where I and my love wont to go! I lean'd my bank into an aik, I thocht it was a trusty tree, but first it bow'd and syne it brak and sae did my true love to me. Now Arthur's Seat shall be my bed, the sheets shall ne'er be pressed by me, St Anton's Well shall be my drink, since my true love has forsaken me. Martinmas wind, when wilt thou blaw, an shake the green leaves aff the tree? O gentle death, when wilt thou come? For o' my life I am weary. I guess since you're a Scot you'll know where Arthur's Seat is! :-) |
Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: The Water Is Wide (Waly Waly) From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:50 PM Just type Waly Waly into that ever-so-useful "Digitrad and Forum Search" box for lots of information, including more complete sets of the lyric given above. No author known, but if you do that search and read what you find, you'll learn lots (not all of it true or useful, of course). |
Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: The Water Is Wide (Waly Waly) From: weepiper Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:31 AM Malcolm, it looks from the request like skyvista scot has already done that for 'Water is Wide' which will mean he/she has seen 90% or so of the results you get when you type in 'Waly, Waly'. Incidentally the version in this book seems to have nothing to do with 'Water is Wide' or 'Carrickfergus', it's a totally different tune, in 3/4 for a start. |
Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: The Water Is Wide (Waly Waly) From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:15 AM I expect you're right, but a lot of background information does turn up in previous discussions, and I'd as soon not repeat it here. The problem is that we don't know which version of many Skyvistascot is looking for; the doubling up of the title (I can't remember who started that, perhaps Child or Sharp) confuses the issue still further. I'm guessing for now that the song wanted is Waly, Waly, Gin Love Be Bony (aka O Waly, Waly Up Yon Bank) -that is to say, the lyric song rather than the narrative ballad Jamie Douglas, in which part of it appears- which was published in Ramsay's Tea Table Miscellany (vol. II, slightly prior to 1727) and, in a slightly different form, in Thomson's Orpheus Caledonicus (1725; longer version in the edition of 1733). One or other of those was probably the original source of the set you quoted above. What appears to be the Tea Table text is given twice in the DT, at WALY, WALY 3 and WALY, WALY 2: The accompanying midi files differ, however, which is puzzling, and neither is that given in the Orpheus Caledonicus, though they are clearly close relatives. There is a set of sheet music available online at the Lester Levy Collection, "As sung by Mademoiselle Christine Nilsson in America", which appears to be a completely different setting: O WALY, WALY UP THE BANK.. Sheet music is available in plenty of modern anthologies; a quite nice one (containing the Orpheus Caledonicus set of 1733) is Wilma Patterson's Songs of Scotland (Mainstream Publishing, 1997; ISBN 1-85158-722-5). It's priced at £25, but is probably available in libraries, along with many other such books. |
Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: The Water Is Wide (Waly Waly) From: weepiper Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:11 PM Looks like the one I have came from the Orpheus Caledonicus then, as the melody doesn't quite match either Mudcat midi file though as you say is obviously related. |
Subject: Water is wide: song history request From: Clairez Date: 09 Jan 02 - 11:27 PM I have been searching the archives for historical references for the song "the water is wide" and I can't seem to find what I need (though there certainly are a lot of threads about the song). I am pretty sure the song has Irish origins, but does any one know for sure? Is it just one of those songs that have been passed around so long that the origins have been blurred? I am singing it in a concert in a few weeks and I am trying to prepare the song introduction. Because we are an Irish band, I would like to link it to its Irish roots. It would be great if I had some history on when it showed up in the U.S. how early a version was cited in Ireland. Maybe I am asking the impossible, but its worth a try. Many thanks, in advance, to anyone with some info. Claire |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jan 02 - 12:10 AM If this is the one also known as Waly, Waly, it goes back to Child 204, "Jaime Douglas." British Isles (inc. Ireland) generally and US acc. to the Traditional ballad Index. |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 02:56 AM I think it's worthwhile posting the entry form the Traditional Ballad Index. -Joe Offer- Waly Waly (The Water is Wide)DESCRIPTION: The singer laments the effects of unrequited love and an untrue lover. Typical symbols include the rotten-hearted oak that looks solid but breaks and the beautiful flower protected by thorns. In some versions the lover is untrue; sometimes (s)he is deadAUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1765 (Percy) KEYWORDS: love rejection lyric nonballad lament lover death FOUND IN: Britain(England,Scotland) Ireland US(Ap,SE) REFERENCES (15 citations): Bronson (204), 8 versions (including "Jamie Douglas") Percy/Wheatley III, pp. 145-148, "Waly Waly, Love Be Bonny" (1 text) Kennedy 149, "Deep in Love" (1 text, 1 tune) Logan, pp. 336-337, "Picking Lilies" (1 text) Leach, pp. 546-551, "Jamie Douglas" (3 texts, with only the third text belonging with this piece) Friedman, p. 101, "Jamie Douglas" (2 texts, with only the second text belonging with this piece) Sharp-100E 39, "O Waly Waly" (1 text, 1 tune) Sandburg, pp. 16-17, "Waillie, Waillie!" (1 text, 1 tune) Copper-SoBreeze, pp. 218-219, "Love" (1 text, 1 tune) Hodgart, p. 143, "O Waly, Waly" (1 text) Lomax-FSNA 70, "Love is Pleasin'" (1 text, 1 tune, of four verses, two of which go here, one belongs with "Fair and Tender Ladies," and the fourth could be from several sources) PSeeger-AFB, p. 77, "The Water Is Wide" (1 text, 1 tune) SHenry H683, p. 393, "The Apron of Flowers" (1 text, 1 tune -- apparently a collection of floating verses including one that goes here) Silber-FSWB, p. 145, "Waillie"; p. 163, "The Water Is Wide" (2 texts) DT (204), WALYWALY WALYWAL2* WALYWAL3* CCKLSHLL* WATRWIDE* CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Jamie Douglas" [Child 204] (lyrics) cf. "Love Is Teasing" cf. "Careless Love" cf. "Died for Love" cf. "The Butcher Boy" [Laws P24] (floating lyrics) cf. "Dink's Song" (floating lyrics) ALTERNATE TITLES: A Ship Came Sailing When Cockle Shells Turn Silver Bells Notes: Some scholars consider this a degraded form of "Jamie Douglas" [Child 204], with which it shares several lyrics. It can hardly be denied that they are related. Since, however, "Waly Waly" has worn away to a purely lyric piece (and some even believe it to be the older of the two songs, which has provided a few chance lyrics to "Jamie Douglas"), it is my firm opinion that the two should be kept separate. Paul Stamler considers at least some of the versions of "I Wish, I Wish/Love is Teasing" to belong here. To me, they look more like versions of "The Butcher Boy." Still, it shows you how lyric this piece has become. Under the title "Forsaken," this is one of the handful of traditional songs in Palgrave's Golden Treasury (item CXXXIII)- RBW File: K149 Go to the Ballad Search form The Ballad Index Copyright 2000 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:30 AM The best known version of The Water is Wide, which I assume you're referring to, was widely recorded in the early years of the folk music revival, not least by American performers -in particular Pete Seeger, I believe, who said that he had added a verse to it, having learned the rest from his sister Peggy (no word on where she had learned it). In those days, it was not always considered necessary to say exactly where you had got a song; "trad" was thought enough if you weren't going to try to copyright it for yourself, so a lot of people were probably inadvertently misinformed as to its origins. In fact, that set of the song was published (in 1904-6 in the UK, 1916 in the USA) by Cecil Sharp, who had noted it from Caroline Cox of High Ham, Somerset, in 1905; Sabine Baring Gould found related songs to related tunes in Devon and Cornwall in the 1880s. The text Sharp published was a collation of several that he had found in Somerset, but the distinctive version of the tune was, so far as I know, Mrs. Cox's. She didn't begin the song with the Water is wide verse; that came from another set, noted by Sharp from Elizabeth Mogg of Doddington, in 1904.
This version of the song is English, then, not Irish. It's worth mentioning that the DT file is unclear about precisely who its text came from (it's basically the same as the Sharp text, with a couple of verses added) but the tune given is the same, though set out differently. As to its origins: well, as you've probably already found out for yourself, it's one of those songs made up of "floating" verses that all turn up in other, often completely unrelated songs, so any attempt to trace an Ur text is pretty much doomed to failure. Certainly a large part of it turns up in Jamie Douglas (though without the Water is wide verse), but opinions differ as to whether that's where it came from or whether the ballad just incorporated an existing lyric as part of its narrative.
There are so many songs made up of floating verses of this kind, though, that it's impossible to be entirely sure which ones are genuinely related to each other, let alone whether there's any documentable "origin". You've probably already read some of the many previous discussions here, but I'll just add one link to a series of links I put in a year or so ago which may provide some interesting related information, though no definitive answers (because there aren't any):
[In the light of another year's learning, I'd say that my comments on The Butcher's Boy should be disregarded; I suggested that it was primarily an American song, but in fact it seems to have clear Scottish antecedents.]
I've said many times that the traditional musics of these islands are so closely interwoven that it's often a futile exercise to insist that one song "must be" Irish, another English or Scottish; of course it's satisfying to identify provenance when it can be done; not, I hope, for any nationalistic motive, but just because it's good to know the truth and to give credit where it's due. In the case of this particular version of this song, though, it is a matter of record that it is from England. I can't tell you whether or not it was also known in a similar form in Ireland, though that is perfectly possible, nor whether the tune is "originally" Irish, or English, or Scottish; all are possible, though, as I've said, this best-known form of it is an English one.
Ultimately, though, your audience will believe what it wants to. |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM Comments applied by Malcolm Douglas apply to other old ballads as well. If they were popular in the 17-18 C, they were spread throughout the British Isles and colonies of the time on broadsides and by word of mouth and paper trails have been lost. Sometimes local events were interwoven, and may help in determining the provenance of a particular version. If our experts like Malcolm can't provide an answer, there is little chance of finding one without spending years going through mouldy paper in collections of ephemera. |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: GUEST,Guest Genie Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:39 AM I think there is a version in Frank Kidson's collection which suggests at least one version was collected in Yorkshire (England) - but where that version originated .....? |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: Desert Dancer Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:18 PM Hi, Claire! ~ B in T |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: Clairez Date: 10 Jan 02 - 08:56 PM Thank you so much for all that great information. It is a beautiful song regardless of its origins, but I wanted to put real stuff into my introduction at the show. There is a lot to go from in your postings. Special thanks to Malcolm for taking the time to to provide references. Now, I just have to decide if it is Irish enough for this particular performance. Happy singing to you all. Claire |
Subject: RE: Water is wide: song history request From: GUEST,Kimberly Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:12 AM I was trying to find out about this song The water is wide/Deep river i had the song a few years ago on my pc but lost it. I think that it was recorded in the early to late 70's by a woman - named Karen somthing. Not Karen Carpenter. I pulled a search and all i came up with was Barbra Streisand. Does anybody have a clue?? |
Share Thread: |
Subject: | Help |
From: | |
Preview Automatic Linebreaks Make a link ("blue clicky") |