BS: What annoys me about mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM

What else annoys me about Mudcat: threads that run well over 100 posts, without a link to a new thread.

So here, at post #118, is the link to part 2 of this discussion: BS: What annoys me about Mudcat PART 2

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:17 AM

Oh wow. This is what I get for not paying attention. Oh, Mark, sweety. You just gotta learn how to play it right. These things don't just happen, you know. You have to work it. I'll teach you some of my stuff if you want. Don't feel bad, I think you're doing really well. Just take a moment to stop and smell the plumeria, and I know you'll feel much better.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:53 AM

LOL...good example, Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:17 AM

OK, this annoys me. People who make requests for lyrics, but don't use punctuation, so they run together the artist's name, the album name, the song title, and maybe some lyrics and other verbiage so you can't sort them out!

id like the lyrics to blue balls down the hill softly under the mistletoe is how it began I think it was their first album

AARGH!

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 12:59 AM

.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 01:30 AM

I echo the thanks, Rick. I've been over there just playing one tune/song after another. It's great. Who is honkingduck? Great site, great service.

Eb

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 10:53 PM

Wow! Thanks Rick, for sharing that site!!! I missed it whenever and wherever Stewie posted it, but I'm sure glad to find it now!! May even have to dust off the old fiddle!! KT

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:40 PM

I suspect I'm just lurking more and enjoying it less. No offense meant. Too much goin' down in my private life these days. Love to all.

art

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:06 PM

That link, and this site for Old-Time tunes to learn and play along with are two of the finest reasons I stick with the 'Cat. I even (finally) got an answer to my puzzling tech question, and along the way got more belly laughs than I would ever have gotten if I'd asked the question on a tech forum. And yes, we have had some knowledgeable people leave. And we've had some knowledgeable people show up, too. So? So I'm willing to put up with the bullshit. I'm even willing to put up with 'Spaw.

I don't expect Mudcat to change to suit me, I just expect to keep learning new stuff and meeting new people and having fun with old people (!) and finding new things to amaze me and delight me and bore me and annoy me but mostly to enjoy. When I used to hang out at the Seattle Song Circle, we didn't just sing songs and talk about folk music, we also shared experiences and told jokes and hung out. Sure, there were some people there who I didn't like all that much (you know who you are....), but most of the people there I did like, and overall it was a good experience, and one I miss very much...which is why I appreciate the Mudcat so much.

But.....do you want to know what REALLY annoys me about the Mudcat? What has me so damned pissed off I'm ready to chuck the whole thing and go hang out at Oprah's book club or the frozen green bean recipe forum? It's that CAROLC GOT A BIRTHDAY THREAD AND I DIDN'T!!!

Aloha,
Mark (Guess next time I'll be smarter and won't have my birthday on Joe Offer's wedding day!)

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 06:29 PM

This may be irrelevant but I think it deserves a mention. Everything on the internet is owned by someone. Somebody owns this forum and has an idea of what they want it to be. If someone else disagrees... tough luck. The only recourse is persuasion. As for unnecessary postings, there will always be newbies. Everywhere you go. Deal with it. I'm one myself. I'm trying to learn but it doesn't happen instantly.

Subject: RE: BS:What a great link!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 02:22 PM

That link rick gave makes this whole thread worthwhile. Here it is again for those who skipped past it.

There was a story in the paper the other day that said that they've discovered that when you really get into it the whole universe is really a sort of turquoise - pistacchio I think is the name of the shade they decided on. I don't really like that colour at all. But on the whole I think the universe is good enough to put up with stuff like that. That goes for the Mudcta as well.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:02 PM

Happy about kat, if you really want happy, I'll spell it out and give you a delighted about: That is Max's "Anyhow, it includes some advanced filtering technology that should make the 1%ers more satisfied with the content without the other 99 even noticing".

Whether it really proves to be a solution in terms of making the 1%ers more satisfied or whether complaints continue for other reasons is another matter but what I do see is a very positive attempt to address what I belive is a key issue within Mudcat.

For the first time in a while, I will go as far as to say I am optimistic about Mudcat!

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:41 AM

I agree with you, Jeri.

Also, it might help if use of a prefix were mandatory, even if it is a GENERAL INQUIRY. There are a LOT of threads right now which do not have the BS distinction and they decidedly NOT about music.

Max has said before that storage is no problem.

Jon, I like the Annexe very much and really appreciate it. I do not see it as any kind of competition to the Mudcat. I also like your prelim design for a music forum, which, again, I do not see as a competition thing.

Artdarlin'....if we could get all of the one like you who have stopped coming by, to come by in a concerted effort and post MORE on music, I think you would find it a welcome change. Most of us cannot post with anywhere near the knowledge and scholarship that you, Deckman, Don Firth, Sandy Paton, Hamilton, Jean Ritchie and others are capable of; most of us would LOVE to hear more. Now, if you're saving it for that memoir and don't want to spoil the publication, I can understand being a bit quiet.*BG* Anyway, we'd love to ehar more and I am sure would show the appreciation we usually do when we read something so interesting and significant as what some of you have posted.

I wasn't going to post to this thread. Then, I was just going to post links ot all of the ones like it, from the past, for Spaw's suggested Bitch, Piss, and Moan Permathread, but I think some important things have been discussed. I would like to see the same people who've posted to this one, also post a few things that they are happy about with the Mudcat, too.

In general, I agree with Jeri's earlier post, too about loving Mudcat for what it is, not what I think it should be.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:40 AM

Sorry Jon. I was overly testy last night. It's no big deal and I apologize. Shoulda had my bran flakes first!

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM

The filter doesn't remove anything from the database. It removes threads from the view of a person using the filter. It's a matter of individual choice.

In all this business about "what annoys me about Mudcat, people are talking mostly about what other people do and say here, not Mudcat itself. If Max were to use his authority to limit what was said or done here, would there be any fewer pissed off people? I think there would be more.

It still comes down to people being frustrated and angry when their view of the best possible Mudcat (or more like the behavior of the contributors) doesn't match reality. Maybe it's just me, but I find it easier to be here somewhat free from expectations than change reality.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:57 AM

But if you start filtering BS from the archive, many of the Mudcat regular's posting history here will cease to exist!

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:32 AM

I'll just offer my opinion on storage as it has cropped up again and Norton's statement where he indicated some degree of agreement with me did not really reflect my thoughts.

I very much doubt that storage is a problem on the system as it is hosted by Max. To the best of my knowledge he has a big database server which I would guess is capable of holding several gigabytes.

I'd guess there could be questions over preformance but again, as far as I know, Max is running SQL server which is very powerful.

Where I would have doubts (and this is a grey area) over storing old threads is that as time goes on, under the current system, there will become more and more BS to wade through when trying to search for information from old music related threads. Only time will tell as to whether it really will become a problem and there is certainly a possibility that the advanced filtering Max mentioned would ease these worries.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:10 AM

I really need to slow down with my links. Sorry about this! Try this one

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:08 AM

Sorry, my FAQ is here

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:03 AM

Rick, given that there were also a lot of complaints over Christianity here - seem to remember Praise getting a lot of stick - don't you? - and I started a Christian Fellowship Forum again to try to cater for a need, it would be rather difficult for me to argue against hymns being discussed in a Christian forum.

I guess you could argue that discussing instrument making in a craft forum was splitting hairs but it is difficult to know where to draw the line - you might be aware that instrument related threads are typically my favourites and I would have loved to have had the thread there. Perhaps my move which I seem to remember was to suggest that thread continued but not to start others was the wrong one - I don't know.

What I do know is:

1: it is not me that wants to be restrictive - my problem has been trying to make it absolutely clear that I am trying to run as an addional facility rather than competition to Mudcat and that line is very hard to draw.

2: The buck stops with me and any stick regarding having "competitive" threads comes to me.

3. The Annexe is not my vision of a forum - it is my vision of trying to provide solutions to problems that I would like to think are temporary (perhaps this advanced filter project will make it easier for other needs to be accomodated in Mudcat) and that what the Annexe attempts to provide is effectively catered for by Mudcat itself.

I'm sorry if it caused you offence. Check out my FAQ I have tried to be as honest, open and clear about the Annexe as I can there.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:46 AM

On storage considerations-- there is one forum that deep archives the older threads, which can be found through some sort of search and can be resurrected back into current-storage till they get old again. I dunno how they do it technically. But they aren't trying to store songs in their threads, either, and it would seem silly to have to apply for refreshing a thread just to get a song out of it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Hilary
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 08:14 AM

The advanced filtering sounds a wonderful idea.

Though I think the main focus should be music, I would hate to lose the BS threads.

But the storage capacity issue mentioned above does strike me as important, I don't enough about exactly how the 'cat is structured - can BS threads be simply not archived, or selectively archived ??? More work than is feasible I guess, & maybe heading towards censorship ???

Suggestions for developments (& whinges) aside, it's still an amazing place.

H

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:24 AM

Hi Amos. You said: "Unless you really enjoy being steamed up as a sorta pastime." Took the woids right outta my mouth!

You also said:"Chacun a son mauvais gout" To those who weren't born in Quebec, I'll translate: "An ill goat in every pot". Words to live by!

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM

Wal, I hear ya. The only thing about the Mudcat that annoys me is the enthusiasm some people seem to cultivate in themselves for being annoyed.

I appreciate the motivation to improve, but I believe there is a better tenor that can be placed on it. Carping about it is kinda ungracious considering that it is a free service. If you're making suggestions because you really care about what the Mudcat could become, I don't see much merit in getting steamed up!! Unless you really enjoy being steamed up as a sorta pastimne.

Chacun a son mauvais gout, as the saying goes. It is not only true that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar....it is also true that ya tend to drive flies away with vinegar.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 11:55 PM

It was my thread (asking about people who like building instruments) in Jon's Annexe, that quickly resulted in my receiving two PMs from him questioning their 'appropriateness'. I felt there might be a chance to have a nice discussion without the constant "me toos", and "I like Fender!" comments that seem to be a part of current Mudcat. I gave it an honest shot, but it's hard to be enthusiastic when hairs are split that quickly after arrival. Discussion of Hymns apparently was fine. No problem. I just left without making a fuss. For some folks it seems like a perfect fit, for others it obviously wouldn't be.

There's a great deal of Music AND good discussion back here at Mudcat...along with the expected distractions. We can't be all things to all people. (and I DON'T wan't to discuss it in PMs...I'm too busy)

To me, Mudcat is not about negativity and complaining, or assinine threads, and flaming folklorists, it's about people like STEWIE and "pot of Gold" threads like this:
click

That's why I stay.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Melani
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:32 PM

I love Mudcat the way it is now, even when people occasionally act like jerks. One of the people I work with in 3-D life acted like a jerk for a whole week, but then she got over it and we're friends again. That's what happens.

As for old-timers vanishing, people's lives change, and sometimes they no longer spend hours on line, or they develop interests in different sites, or whatever.It doesn't always mean they got disgusted and left.

I first posted here as a guest, and then got sucked in by the discussions and responses. If an anonymous guest posts something offensive, I don't have to read it. There's plenty of music-related and other stuff to keep me busy here. I like the fact that anybody can post easily, whether registered or not; my daughter just asked me to read an article on a forum she frequents, and when I hit the button for "comment on this article" I couldn't figure out how to make a comment. The ease of discourse here is what keeps the new blood coming in, and that's what makes evolution happen.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:50 PM

Jon, the Mudcat Market is being done by Mudcatters, not by Mudcat. All Mudcat did to accommodate it was add a link to it in Quicklinks. It's an example of the unpredictable positivity that happens here when an idea is really the right one for Mudcatters-- it gets discussed briefly and then someone with a good approach runs with it and people find it workabkle too, so they get into it. Organic chaos.... evolution. Your Annexe has been the same way. I hope it continues to be-- and that more people use it, for non-music stuff. I have recommended it often, behind the scenes, for that. And the Annexe and your work on it ARE appreciated.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:52 PM

Max (ignoring the period),

Even I, probably one of the biggest critics here would not argue against you being one of the best. The matter to me seems more of further evolution...

I wish the advanced filtering project well and hope that it really will produce your aims.

I'm glad you posted this and as unlikely as it may seem, I wish you well.

Good luck and good wishes,

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:44 PM

Well said Max. My hat's off to you ... and most of my hair also. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Max
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:28 PM

We've been toiling with the issue of topic here for a while. We are a folk/blues/traditional/historical/folklore Web site, but to try to control it manually is an endless if not impossible task. I keep hearing the members-only recommendation, but am not comfortable with that. The fact that long-time core members, who seem to have the most to offer us, are visiting less often bothers me even more.

Can't help to take things for granted, but as far as specific-topic Forums, I'd say we're among the best. And even more importantly, we maintain a significant desire to continue to improve. The new version of Mudcat is in operation to a select few volunteers for testing and development. It's pretty damn cool if you ask me. Anyhow, it includes some advanced filtering technology that should make the 1%ers more satisfied with the content without the other 99 even noticing. I'd be surprised if it takes more than 2 months to finish at this point, though one of our important helpers is going on a honeymoon for a stint.

Without getting on a rant here, just trust that we are very aware of these issues, and we choose to deal with them in technological ways rather than with rules or censorship. You all have your own reasons for being here, and we all have our reasons for creating this Web site and this database. Mine is to collect data that may not otherwise be collected and to facilitate a community of people who have similar interests. (Emphasis on the Period at the end of that sentence)

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:01 PM

Well for what my 2 pence worth is.

The basic theme is folk music.

There are deviations from that theme, most of good humour, some serious.

Yes I've made contrbutions that have not been acepted in the spirit that they were intended - and yes I've made posts which on reflection perhaps I should not have made.

And when, with my limited knowledge, I think I can comtribute to a serious music thread I do so. And I try very hard not to enjoin in the Flamers Game, no matter how great the temptation. This is one reason why I have not previously posted on this thread.

But you know, it don't take a geniuos to realise the direction a thread is going too after you read the first few posts.

If you wish to participate in the Mudcat you have to take the rough with the smooth, and as they say in the Navy " If you can't take a joke, you should not have joined !" ( Traditionally said whilst clinging to a Carley Float = Cork life raft).

I would be a lot happier if Anon. Guest(s) were contributing to the save the Mudcat appeal - but then if they are not prepared to give their names - why should we and Max expext their money.

I suspect the Cat is bigger than the occasional spat - After all we are supposed to be adults - or should we confine the music to "Jack and Jill" and the like.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:50 PM

"I'm putting my money on Mudcat to stay the course and keep evolving." So am I Susan but the current course has been followed for over 2 years with the same effect...

My well being: in honestey, I am much better than I have been in 2 or 3 years with the need for a drink before doing anything decreasing and even being eliminated in some areas.

"The same old song and each time with more added" is perhaps a worry but that is simply is a factor of trying to get a reasonable response from people when ideas are given and I guess it gets more and more annoying each time round and I tend to react more strongly.

I of course know I should have got out when I tried to last year. I tried to leave aimably then but got back in. For the record, the final straws for me then where one getting involved (not for the first time) in trying to stop a security issue that I had warned about hitting the forum. It came very close as did another one that you know about Susan. I was right, but stupidly in something that I do regret, let those out. I am now accused of dictating how security should be here, demonstrating live hacks in threads and even setting terms of how these errors must be fixed and have read replies from based on lies.

The other annoyance and the real final straw for me when I decided to quit was the healing thread rows the PM one and the healing one stemmed from the same source as it was a side issue in the same row. My final straw was Joe putting in his opinion as a view (a view that I have to say that given Mudcat limitations, I agree with) in the FAQ and then deleleting a counter opinion from Mousthief which produced more argument. If there ever was an attempt to control, that surely was one. So I tried to be anti-control but, when I came back, I tried to offer a solution - yet now, at least according to people like Marty, I am setting terms when all I did was try to cater for what MC could't or wouldn't.

I guess while I'm on, I will enter my final gripe which is one of the talk of money and a great job. It is certainly true to say that money is important and that Max provides a service that is expensive to run and it is also true to suggest that people with skills are needed but in a community like this, such skills are avialible and the real question revolves around the dedication of people to donate thier services rather than an issue of cost.

Perhaps in that area, my biggest question would be this: How is it that Mudcat can introduce a new "Mudcat Market thing" in a matter of days but fail to introduce changes that have been promised for over 6 months? Is it a matter of where interest lies or where money is? In reality, it probably is the "crisis factor" but it does show what can be done when there is a real need. Perhaps, by my way of thinking, it shows what could be done if there was real dedication and better attempts at utilising resources.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:30 PM

It's true....Lots of detail things take time and there is truth in diminishing returns. Some get very offended when a question is answered with an old thread, but when the answer and a lot more is IN the old thread, why not? Ted has posted some theory info that is a great resource so why not link it with a few additional comments?

BTW, Stewie just ran across and posted an Old Timey Music site that is a killer! Yeah, the joint still evolves, but new topics are harder to come by because there is so much info already on the threads if we can learn and teach others to use it. I can't wait to answer some requests with the site that Stewie just linked........Ya' know, it occurs to me too that we also have a lot of threads like this one we could link when the subject comes up. Maybe we could put them all together for those who want to complain and all into a "Bitch, Piss, and Moan, Permathread."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:14 PM

M.Ted,

I think those are very astute observations on your part -- about it being just plain ol' hard work to post worthwhile information and contributions. I've also seen you lift more than your share of the instructional weight. bravo!

I thought about the question of diminishing posts/posters/posting about interesting folk-related info -- especially in history and lore.

At the inception, talking about the lore, every story was new --at least to this site. History being what it is by nature, a done deal, it is a finite source for conversation content.

Sure, there's still tons of stuff that's never been discussed here (I'm speaking theoretically, as I don't personally know of whole lots more folk history or I'd a-posted it by now), but the truth is --the strip mining is over and it's just lots tougher to find a new vein to mine.

Just as you said about the music/theory information threads, even the folk lore/history threads are just harder work and research. Meaningful answers require meaningful research.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 05:45 PM

Well Jon, I think you are taking it all a little too seriously and personally, and I say that as your friend. No one I now feels that strongly about anything you have done, or you, although some of us do worry abvout how you are doing because you have shared, pretty openly, where your struggles lie. And the list of annoyances about Mudcat is pretty much the same as it seems it's always been. And yet it is still heavily used, with songs being added all the time and work to make it more organized progressing. Yeah, it is evolving. Maybe not the way you envisoned-- probably no the way anyone envisioned. It's more complex than we can envision accurately anyhow. But something that is evolving sure ain't dead.

I'm putting my money on Mudcat to stay the course and keep evolving. And I am content to know that anyone's single voice is not what will influence it. That leaves me free to say how I think it ought to be and then relax, knowing wise hearts will take ALL the input and do what is possible with it.

Of course whatever you will do is up to you, make no mistake that I think otherwise. But I would like to have thought that the man of integrity, who assured folks he had no desire to compete with Mudcat, is still my friend Jon.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 05:35 PM

Shenendoah said "I find the people with a deep and wide knowledge of the music don't spend near as much time in these discussion forums as they once did."

As someone who has posted many answers to technical musical questions, I have a little insight in to why that is so--simply enough--it is a lot work to keep providing serious, in-depth answers to musical questions that people have--

When someone has a question or problem, you have to spend time figuring out what it really is, and then you have to sit down and write an answer that is clear, complete, and understandable. You have to be careful not to confuse the issue more, and, you have to be ready to deal with the response, which can be anything from a thank you to another question, to an insult, or to no reply at all--

You could literally write a music textbook in the process of responding to all the questions that come up here, and after a while, the novelty wears off, and you gravitate toward posting only when no one else does, or where the discussion is going in the wrong direction, or when it is something that is really important--

It is not that you care any less, or that you are fed up with flames, or that you feel like you are casting your pearls to swine, it is just that it is a lot of work, and you tend to pick an choose the places that you invest your energy--

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:33 PM

Susan no one has taken over my cookies, I don't want to compete with Mudcat and in fact have done my best to the ensure that the Annexe uses fairly tight categories so as not to interfere with the sponatnious general chat that occurrs in Mudcat. I demonstrated concern over one thread which was craft but was instrument related as I felt it was encroaching on Mudcat territory. If I'd have wanted to compete, I would have started out that way.

Having said that, I find myself in a situation in this forum where I can tell the truth about something and watch lies being believed. Can try to offer constructive suggestions and see them viewed either with complete negativity or as "competetion" to Mudcat. I mean I am being treated over here as if I am trying to do all the things I didn't want to do. I am coming more and more to the point where I feel I might as well just go ahead and have done with it.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:14 PM

Is that Jon "I don't want to compete with Mudcat" Freeman there? Or has someone taken over his cookies?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 03:09 PM

Apart from a few oddballs like me, pretty well everyone here is anonymous, in the sense that they don't post with their actual face to face names, and most of the time they don't have profiles or photos on the Mudcat. And there is no problem or complaint by anyone about that, and there never has been and there never should be.

The stuff about GUESTs isn't about anonymity as such, it's about people who are unwilling to join in a conversation, but just want to throw in their contributions like stink-bombs. If a stranger joins in a conversation that's one thing. But if they shouted out interruptions from behind a curtain it'd be something different. The medium is the message, and the medium here feels like it's meant to be insulting. And if it's not meant to be insulting, noone has ever explained why it's done.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:54 AM

bbc is of course right that the answer is not to care.

I would take issue with Jeri's "should be" however as I am not convinced that there is anyone who is believes there is a single right or wrong.

There is however a belief in what the forum could be and it remains my belief that Mudcat falls short in this department. My view is that Mudcat evolved in unexpected and exciting ways which involved an increasing community element. These changes did have an effect on several older members and from the very first time I looked here there were rows and comments about people dropping out. Comments in this thread seem to back up the fact that the dropping out continues because of content.

Where I seem to fundamentally seem to differ with many of the others like me who contribute to BS is I can see the other side and rather than take the "if you don't like how it is now leave" attitude, I try to think of ways of making life more bearable for all and I firmly believe that there are ways.

A major reason for me starting the Annexe was to cater for repetitive threads such as healing threads (not that it's been used much for that) that provoked rows here. The rows were not caused by me, in fact a common complainer was Joe Offer who didn't want the volume. I try to find space, suggest alternative solutions, etc. in this case, even provided one. Why - basically because Mudcat was either unable or unwilling to evolve to meet the need.

I'm pretty sure I know the end course for me by now which will be leaving to good riddance - a well warn path but I may well end up going alone on music and try to create a place for people who like to talk music without BS but does have a comminity for those that want. I don't know if it will get any support and I am at a dissadvantage both in finances and in not having a big song database but on the other hand, I do have creativity and imagination together with the ability to react quickly to changing or growing needs on my side.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: mack/misophist
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:35 AM

Anonymity: May I say a word? I'm retired, back in college studying computer science. Every one of my teachers who has an opinion on the subject promotes anonymity on the internet. There are some truly odd people out there and you don't want to attract their attention. A technically savvy person can sometimes track you down and make mincemeat of your privacy. Even in a nice friendly place like this, it'e wise to keep the internet as much at arms length as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:12 AM

John, I didn't exactly accuse you personally "of being a macho bullshitter, of being irrational, or of being afraid of the unknown" now did I? Reread my post again--there is no personal attack against you. But if the shoe fits, well...

I feel there is a very strong undercurrent of machismo and intimidation towards guests here, which is "justified" by those who engage in it by playing the "anonymous = evil" card. You weren't exactly using polite, friendly, helpful language yourself when you said "Give your name or shut up" which is what I reacted to as just more of the same guest bashing we've already seen in this thread, and in every thread where this subject rears its ugly head.

I agree with your points about Mudcat really being a reflection of the wider world. I don't treat strangers the way they are treated in this forum. I trust my gut instincts about them first, which is, of course, hard to do on-line. But I would never, ever just assume they are asswholes (!) just because I don't know who they are. I can't think of a more negative attitude to go through life with. Especially when there is no shortage of member asswholes in Mudcat aweady. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: 53
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 12:17 AM

nothing really, everybody who has a name seems to be great, its the guest who post with no name are the trouble makers. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: John P
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:47 PM

Guest Shenandoah,
I think you must have misunderstood what I was saying. If you look at my post again, you'll see that I said I was bothered by "People who use anonyminity to say things they would never say if they could be held accountable. . . . Give your name or shut up." When I said I have no problem with helpful and friendly anonymous people I was indicating that the anonyminity is not the problem for me, but rather people who use it to be rude without having to face the consequences of their actions. I readily admit to having a hot spot about anonymous posters who do a lot of flaming, having spent some years being being stalked around the newsgroups by a crazy person who never gave a name. Also, this thread is about what bothers us; listing my peeves doesn't mean I really expect the world to change to suit me. See my peeve #3.

I don't much care to be accused of being a macho bullshitter, of being irrational, or of being afraid of the unknown. Perhaps you should take the time to find out what a person is about before you start firing off insults. And perhaps you should have read my post a second time before going public with such an obvious and strongly worded misunderstanding. Flaming is not a good way to achieve a meeting of minds.

I enjoyed and agreed with all your other posts on this thread, by the way.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:45 PM

I figure most of the problems people have with Mudcat come from a belief that we can make things go the way we want around here. When things don't go according to our vision, we get frustrated and pissed off. Trying to direct what other folks do or say here, though, is a bit like herding cats, or maybe more like trying to change the path of a river. We want folks to post less, or more, or say what we think they should say, or stick to the topic, or read the thread, or be nicer, or get less pissed off when other people aren't nice, or not act like sociopaths, or not look for excuses to be offended... The river, and Mudcat, just continues on its merry way, and takes little notice of us, and we stand by its banks, livid with rage. It ain't worth it.

It's not that we can't sometimes get people to understand our point of view, it's that we can't conrol how anyone but ourselves behaves here.

Bbc said she had to learn to stop caring about Mudcat. I never did stop. I had to learn to stop caring about what I thought Mudcat SHOULD be, and find what was good in what it IS.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:37 PM

To Art ... You know Art, you and I have agreed a lot lately. We've messaged a couple of times off line. We are of similiar vintage, tho I am older. I agree with your last posting 100%. I think the way that I'm going to handle the idiots is like this: I'll continue to start the occasional thread, as I just did, but I'll watch the postings VERY closly. I well know the names of the jerks that turn me off. When they post, I'm outa' there. If it reaches the point that these jerks have no one else to jerk but themselves, well then they deserve themselves ... I always know how to reach quality people like yourself. CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 10:23 PM

1. Helpful people

2. Tons of songs

3. The chance to discuss the songs

4. Clickable tunes

5. Photos to recognize people out at events

6. People coming from 4-9 hours away for a Mudcat Gathering

7. Challenging thinkers

8. People to write new songs with

9. People to learn old songs from

10. Free speech

And that's just the stuff bugging me today!

God, I don't know how I stand it!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM

The world is usually a warm and a friendly place, but if I was to go back and take note of all the times people have given me the finger from within the safety of their speeding cars I'm sure it would be more than the number of posts in this thread and several others cmbined. Yes, from the safety of these posts we can do whatever and not care a whit about how it might look and/or feel to others. That's why, I suspect, I'll not be joining in a ton in the future.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:36 PM

Such a long list for such a small, warm, friendly place.

Subject: RE: BS: What annoys me about mudcat
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jan 02 - 08:22 PM

I think I have come up with the one thing that bothers me more than anything else.......Threads like these.

Spaw