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BS: sliding into a depression

GUEST,rd 12 Jan 02 - 05:28 AM
alanabit 12 Jan 02 - 07:59 AM
kendall 12 Jan 02 - 08:02 AM
CarolC 12 Jan 02 - 08:06 AM
RichM 12 Jan 02 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Gern 12 Jan 02 - 09:42 AM
Allan C. 12 Jan 02 - 09:43 AM
Mr Red 12 Jan 02 - 09:44 AM
GUEST,Gern 12 Jan 02 - 09:49 AM
marty D 12 Jan 02 - 11:42 AM
Knitpick 12 Jan 02 - 11:47 AM
GUEST 12 Jan 02 - 12:06 PM
Steve in Idaho 12 Jan 02 - 12:26 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 12 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM
Bobert 12 Jan 02 - 01:41 PM
alanabit 12 Jan 02 - 01:50 PM
kendall 12 Jan 02 - 03:06 PM
Mudlark 12 Jan 02 - 03:31 PM
wysiwyg 12 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 12 Jan 02 - 04:31 PM
M.Ted 12 Jan 02 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,rd 12 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM
53 12 Jan 02 - 10:33 PM
wysiwyg 13 Jan 02 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,rd 13 Jan 02 - 03:55 AM
Hrothgar 13 Jan 02 - 05:21 AM
Liz the Squeak 13 Jan 02 - 06:12 AM
wysiwyg 13 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM
Wyrd Sister 13 Jan 02 - 10:13 AM
GUEST,TNDARLN 13 Jan 02 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,TNDARLN 13 Jan 02 - 01:06 PM
Noreen 13 Jan 02 - 01:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jan 02 - 01:57 PM
smallpiper 13 Jan 02 - 03:48 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 13 Jan 02 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 13 Jan 02 - 06:35 PM
53 13 Jan 02 - 09:01 PM
Bo Vandenberg 13 Jan 02 - 09:21 PM
M.Ted 13 Jan 02 - 11:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Jan 02 - 11:28 PM
M.Ted 14 Jan 02 - 12:56 AM
paddymac 14 Jan 02 - 01:32 AM
Bagpuss 14 Jan 02 - 09:30 AM
53 14 Jan 02 - 09:42 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 14 Jan 02 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,rd 14 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM
Hilary 14 Jan 02 - 04:40 PM
Liz the Squeak 14 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM
SharonA 14 Jan 02 - 05:53 PM
Steve in Idaho 14 Jan 02 - 06:13 PM
Deda 14 Jan 02 - 06:50 PM
wysiwyg 14 Jan 02 - 07:11 PM
wysiwyg 14 Jan 02 - 07:18 PM
kendall 14 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM
wysiwyg 14 Jan 02 - 09:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 14 Jan 02 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,rd 15 Jan 02 - 02:13 AM
Amergin 15 Jan 02 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,53 Glenda at work 15 Jan 02 - 10:00 AM
SharonA 15 Jan 02 - 12:03 PM
wysiwyg 15 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Desdemona 15 Jan 02 - 12:34 PM
Wyrd Sister 15 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM
53 15 Jan 02 - 03:20 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 15 Jan 02 - 04:30 PM
SINSULL 15 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM
53 16 Jan 02 - 01:09 PM
53 16 Jan 02 - 01:17 PM
wysiwyg 16 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM
Deda 16 Jan 02 - 11:01 PM
marty D 17 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 17 Jan 02 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,rd 17 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM
Mrrzy 17 Jan 02 - 02:35 PM
Steve in Idaho 17 Jan 02 - 02:40 PM
Mr Red 17 Jan 02 - 02:48 PM
Don Firth 17 Jan 02 - 03:34 PM
Noreen 17 Jan 02 - 07:07 PM
KAS 17 Jan 02 - 10:53 PM
M.Ted 17 Jan 02 - 11:20 PM
GUEST,rd's ex 18 Jan 02 - 12:54 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jan 02 - 01:25 AM
katlaughing 18 Jan 02 - 01:45 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jan 02 - 02:03 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jan 02 - 02:13 AM
SharonA 18 Jan 02 - 09:53 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 18 Jan 02 - 09:53 AM
53 18 Jan 02 - 09:58 AM
SharonA 18 Jan 02 - 10:00 AM
SharonA 18 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM
Mrrzy 18 Jan 02 - 11:26 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jan 02 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com 18 Jan 02 - 12:03 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 18 Jan 02 - 12:28 PM
SharonA 18 Jan 02 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,rd 18 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM
katlaughing 18 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM
wysiwyg 18 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM
53 18 Jan 02 - 07:46 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jan 02 - 09:25 PM
53 18 Jan 02 - 09:30 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 02 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,,gargoyle 19 Jan 02 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 19 Jan 02 - 12:23 AM
Stilly River Sage 19 Jan 02 - 01:24 AM
Art Thieme 19 Jan 02 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,rd 19 Jan 02 - 05:44 AM
Stilly River Sage 19 Jan 02 - 12:09 PM
katlaughing 19 Jan 02 - 02:10 PM
marty D 19 Jan 02 - 02:47 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Jan 02 - 02:51 PM
Don Firth 19 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM
Amos 19 Jan 02 - 03:54 PM
Art Thieme 19 Jan 02 - 11:27 PM
53 19 Jan 02 - 11:42 PM
Art Thieme 20 Jan 02 - 11:43 PM
katlaughing 12 Aug 06 - 10:44 AM
Zany Mouse 12 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

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Subject: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 05:28 AM

I'm recognising the signs that I'm sliding back into depression, negative self thoughts, things that I used to enjoy are now a burden. 12 months after stopping anti-depressants I've accomplished more I would have dreamed possible then, new friends, performing in public, learning new instruments, but now it's starting to be too hard keeping it going. The only thing I want to do is sleep for 6 months. (& eat large amounts of chocolate). I know there are many people who have infinitely worse problems to deal with than me, one friend regularly self-harms to the point of risking death. I'm sure there are 'catters there who are fighting off the miasma - how do you do it ?? ??? Try to reduce some pressures, tell myself ?????? when I find I'm thinking "I'm useless" etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 07:59 AM

First good thing is that you are recognising the signs and are prepared to do something about it. When I am in the same position - feeling useless, helpless etc I get the feeling that I can't possibly cope with all the problems I have to deal with. This is tempting to give in to because it is based on a half truth. The reality is that I can't deal with everything at once. The trick I use is to start on the one thing I can do - however small and trivial it is. On days when I had no money to settle bills, no gigs and the weather ruled out even busking, I would do things like clean my flat, return the library books etc. The simple act of doing anything useful helped me to begin overcoming the feeling of helplessness. Above all, I made myself feel that I was using my time usefully. The other important trick is never to feel guilty about making mistakes. People forgive you for all sorts of mistakes. I think it's better to make a mistake and learn from it than to stay passive. Failures can jolt your confidence, but apathy will certainly sap it. If you are having financial problems - take the initiative and go to the bank, the electricity board or whatever first. It shows them that you are willing to do something about it - and more important - it tells you that you are not simply abandoning yourself to fate. I found that this helped my confidence. Very few officials really like picking on a real live human face in front of them. It is much easier for them to behave ruthlessly to someone they do not see in the flesh. (I am not bullshitting here - at one time I was a tax official). A conscious decision to be active in the face of my problems has always done more to stave off depression than any quick fix remedy I have encountered. This is what always worked for me. You have the guts to seek help and the self knowledge to recognise the signs of trouble.It's a good sign that you are learning to cope. Good luck. I think you are on your way.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:02 AM

If you find something that works, let me know.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 08:06 AM

Was there any particular reason you stopped the anti-depressants? Would you consider going back on them again?


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: RichM
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:21 AM

The recognition that your depression is returning is a good sign. Don't try to resolve this by yourself. See your doctor. You may need to return to medication or get some psychiatric counselling.

I've tried stopping medication a couple of times. Each time I gradually slid back into depression---without realizing it!

Rich McCarthy


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:42 AM

I agree with the other concerned correspondents: By reaching out and confronting your 'slide,' you are already helping yourself. Depression is something that grows in the dark, for me, at least. When I ignore or avoid it, it spreads itself insidiously. When I force it out in the open, in my own conscience mind or especially when I expose it to the scrutiny of others, it tends to recede. Don't cut yourself off from others, including those trained to help you cope. Don't demand satisfaction from those activities (music?) which have satisfied you in the past---just keep doing them, and the pleasure will return. Find some faith in the resiliency of your own mind, which can spring back from depression if allowed to do so. If the good things in your life currently are not feeling so rewarding, continue to pursue them patiently for their own sake---the rewards will return. Meanwhile, rest assured that others (including several of us at Mudcat, no doubt) know the emptiness you're feeling and care enough to want to help. "We all need someone we can lean on..."


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:43 AM

I completely agree with all the above but would like to submit one other thing to try in addition but not instead.

Try something new. I mean that you might think about some interests that you have not explored completely and begin to put some efforts in those directions. If you had always meant to try to do some painting, then get yourself a small set of paints and a canvas or watercolor paper and begin. If you have had a secret desire to learn rock climbing skills, then get out and do it.

Staying kinetic in some fashion will help to prevent the dust of depression from settling on you.

Many times the stimulation of new experiences and accomplishments can be helpful in allowing the rest of your brain to work on sorting some of the other issues that are causing difficulty.

It is the "sorting" part that is the most important. Depression generally stems from a feeling of not being able to solve some issues. Eventually, those issues must be faced in order to move on. The new pursuit you may investigate is simply something to do while you are working on the real issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:44 AM

from the the symptoms you describe I would say look into the possibility of SAD, cabin fever. In any event check your sleep patterns. If you feel night time sleep is unrewarding or then it won't be helping any. It is sometimes easier to readjust sleep patterns by delaying the cycle (get a full 8 hours) gradually until you come round to the achievable and regular sleep time. Not that working people can fit that in but remember we humans have a natural diurnal cucle of 27 hours so that even if it is messed -up a bit the earth day will reset it. That is the other clue - get some really strong light for a few hours (daylight is deceptive the eye is logarithmic and daylight is very strong). Doctors will tell you about seratonin levels and there are pills but some foods have it. It might be worth investigating such foods - start with carrots.
Oh - and there is always Mudcat .


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,Gern
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 09:49 AM

It's worth noting, by the way, that this appeal for help has attracted three responses in the last three minutes! While we here at Mudcat find no shortage of things to gripe about and abuse each other with, there is a powerful sense of caring for our community. Guest, you came to the right place!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: marty D
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 11:42 AM

Feeling depressed and ALONE is the absolute worst situation a human being can be in. Knowing that others understand what you're feeling is the first step to fighting back. The next is to get back on the meds. That's what they're for.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Knitpick
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 11:47 AM

Two things:

1. Stay active. Exercise, whether it's work or play, helps a lot.

2. DON'T listen to any Richard Thompson songs!

Songbob Clayton


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 12:06 PM

Alanabit is right in everything he says (as are others....) - its imprortant to achieve a little something every day...something that you can take a little 'pride' in having got done. Depression is just too big a black mass of troubles to tackle all at once, but it helps chipping little bits off that big black mass...its slow work, but after a while, hopefully you can see it getting appreciably smaller

Best Wishes,

ANON.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 12:26 PM

I've battled depression for close to 40 years. This is what works for me most of the time.
1) Exercise - EVERY day (minimum of 20 minutes)
2) Stay on my meds - even if it seems they are not working or I don't really need them anymore (this has been a buggar as I don't like feeling dependent on something to make me feel better)
3) Get up at about the same time each day and go to bed about the same time each day. We really only need 6-8 hours of sleep a day.
4) Talk to someone who will accept you and not pass judgement (just a great listener - "Tell me more" type responses) 5) See your doctor - preferably a Psychiatrist as they specialize in medications and how they interface with the brain and work to rectify affective disorders.
6) Avoid other bummed out/negative people like the plaugue. They may be your best friends but you need someone who is neutral at a minimum right now.

Anytime I don't do the above I slip - I slip anyway but the above really minimizes the impact.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 12:31 PM

Having committed myself to a Psychiatric Ward many years ago, I know what you are feelings, as many other Mudcatters do. One thing that amazed me when I came out after 17 days, was how many people I know have gone through depressions, and how many others realized that they had and regretted not getting any help. I think all the advice given here is good, and helpful. We each have our own stories to tell, but one thing that I'd encourage you doing is seek out those who can sincerely encourage you. I was in a situation where the closest person I could turn to was just trying to bring on my depression. One of the hardest things to do in life is to love yourself. There is this misunderstanding about loving yourself and being selfish. I think that the only way that you can become a loving, generous, outward-looking person is to love yourself, forgive yourself, and don't let ANYONE rub your nose in the past. It's beautiful to see the concern and love from Mudcatters. Most of us are cyber-friends... can't be there in person to throw an arm around your shoulder or sit up with you all night. I'e seen friends go into depressioon when it seemed to be the only mentally healthy thing to do. Sometimes, life IS depressing. But, you've ridden through a depression before, and you will do it again.
You don't mention a belief in God... if you have that, it gives a different dimension to the whole experience. That doesn't mean that you can't find your way back on your own, or through friends and counsellors. And, you've got a lot of friends here at Mudcat.
Count me in.
Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 01:41 PM

First and formost, IT WILL PASS.

Second: Both Songbob Clayton and Norton1 are right in telling you to "EXCERSIZE". It is important to excercize at least four times per week rigerously. Not only does this give your mind a little time out, but it also releases endorphins which will in tern give you a feeling of well being.

Lastly, meds, counseling, prayer, meditation and one day at a time.

You will be in my prayers, rd.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 01:50 PM

Should mention that I agree with the coments about exercise too. It's a good tool for fighting that dangerous inertia of not caring about yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 03:06 PM

It doesn't always pass. I've been without a voice for almost two months, and it is really getting me down. Of all things for a singer/speaker to lose! My voice defines who I am without it, what am I? Who am I?


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 03:31 PM

To Guest: I agree that exercise, dragging yourself out of the chair and doing something, anything, is good medicine. Dogs are a great help in this...if you don't have one maybe you could borrow a friend's who need exercising... Also, resist the urge to isolate. Sometimes just talking to someone on the phone can be refreshing. Reach out, as you have done here, in all directions.



To Kendall...Sorry to hear of your own problem, Kendall. First off, have faith that your voice will return...it requires psychic energy to produce any act of creativity, and that is in short supply when depression takes a grip. In the meantime, try to focus on the fact that your essential self is not about any one part of yourself...you shape your voice, not the other way around. You have a much needed voice right here, for instance, that is still clear and strong.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM

There is good information with links to more, that I think you will find applicable, here:

CLICK.

And another thread on depression here:

CLICK

You do need to be a member there (and Mudcat member) to post there, and then you also can get private messgaes in both areas from people who may not be comfortable posting in the threads.

Also I highly recommend the resources described here:

CLICK.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:31 PM

Try if you can to get ahold of a copy of "The Noonday Demon" by Andrew Solomon. It's wise, compassionate, pragmatic - and very readable. He doesn't offer easy solutions because of course there aren't any. But it may serve as a sort of map, from one who's been there. And he supports the advice of many of the Mudcatters here, who sound pretty wise and compassionate themselves. In particular (I can't speak from personal experience on this one, but I hear it time and time again): However much you dislike being on medication, don't abandon it! Finally, remember what E.L. Doctorrow said: "It's like driving at night - you can only see as far as the beam of the headlights. But that will get you there."


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 04:59 PM

Try to keep the things you do as simple as possible, so you don't get bogged down --and try to eat real, hot meals instead of snacks and chocolates--excersise is a big help--no need for a gym membership, just a regular walk or bike ride--


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM

You guys are brilliant, much thanks to each of you. You're right about keeping on keeping on, not trying to do EVERYTHING - but set small acheivable tasks to keep up the momentum -chipping away. The Salami technique - the whole thing is impossible but one slice at a time is a breeze. Definitely no Richard Thompson ! Having been off anti-depressants a year I'm hoping I'll get through this patch, but it's useful to know there's a fall back position ! I wanted to (gradually) came off them as I don't like taking any meds, they had some side-effects but also I was wary of the attitude of employers, post-Allitt, though personally I see them like vitamins - if you're low on iron/Vitamin C etc - you need a booster. I don't know if it was the experience of others of who took them - but I was getting "you're looking better" comments from people who didn't know about the meds both when I started and when I finished. Sadly, good advice about friends who are down. A friend (didn't mentioned above) is also very down - but I know he has other supports. At the moment I don't believe I could cope with him - risking hurting both of us. I'm new to this area, so mostly new friends, who have been great at talking about individual issues ( including almost the end of a relationship), but I'm wary of burdening them with the whole shebang'. I shall definitely try out the links soon ! Thank heavens (& Max the others) there's a back door into the cat. I shall keep this to hand for 'down times', which are inevitable, but not definitely the beginning of the end. I like the idea of trying something new - no expectations of trying to be 'good/better at ....'. Perhaps go to concerts/gigs more than sessions give myself a short rest from performing, although it's great to do a song - it's still pressure & trying to meet the expectations of others. 'Nuff wittering, Thanks again to everybody, & especially good luck to those of you who have experienced depression. Bon chance rd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 12 Jan 02 - 10:33 PM

a lot of people are suffering from problems such as this, myself included, and i feel for you cause i just can't seem to get mine under control, but depression is not my main problem, but being manic is. i can go from here to here in a matter of seconds, and you never know when its going to start. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 12:12 AM

Check that cortisol level Bob. It's bound to be involved. I think your pore lil adrenals may be shot to hell. I gave Glenda the information about it.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 03:55 AM

Hi Bob,

Sometimes I think the feeling you're not in control of you're own emotions is one of the worse aspects. How do you try to tackle mania ??? Use the energy ????


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Hrothgar
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 05:21 AM

Even if everything you are doing seems to be too much, keep doing at least some of it. As lots of people have said, exercise - if nothing else, it will make you tired enough to sleep properly.

Probably you should go back on the medication, no matter how little you like it (chocolate might count as medication, but a balanced diet around it is necessary, too)!

Last but not least - you've learned to play more instruments. I've never learned to play any, so you are doing better tham some!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 06:12 AM

You have energy? Wanna come clean my house? I need help decorating the bedroom, and I've got all the energy of a cataleptic sloth! You get manic phases? I get the opposite. I want to hibernate, and yes, I have been getting plenty of light. It's a result of working every day except bank holidays and weekends over Christmas.... I got to a point where I felt physcially sick at work! I started to do other tasks and it's been getting better, but I still want to just soak in a hot tub and stay there till May.

I notice my PMT/S is worse when I'm depressed, which really helps NOT! Evening Primrose oil didn't even touch it this time! Anyone any tips?? - oh, and there's this stiff neck I've had for a week now....

Seriously, rather than take up a new hobby, look back over something you might have started ages ago and done nothing with for a while... it's as good as starting an new one, and chances are, you won't have to spend out on much! If you have a manic phase, try something physical, like a long bike ride, polish the car, vacuum the stairs, dust the pictures, dig the garden, or make pasta or bread. Beating the crap out of a lump of dough and then getting to eat it afterwards (if it's in a fit state)makes it sort of worthwhile.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:20 AM

LTS-- see the link I gave above to an Annexe thread. Cortisol, cortisol, cortisol... needs B5 and a few other items.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 10:13 AM

I can't really add more, but agree with what others have said. You've recognised it's depression. Good, you can stop the negative voices that tell you it's just you being useless. Try to keep regular hours. Treat yourself to a well-balanced meal-that can link in with make yourself do something, anything, and remember just moving is exercise if you can't manage anything more energetic yet. If medication is what it takes, so be it. I understand people not wanting to be reliant on pills to feel "normal", but few of those same people would recommend e.g. diabetics should learn to be normal without insulin. And remember there are a lot more of us than we think! Good luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,TNDARLN
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:03 PM

Amen to the insulin comparison! Every time I've thought "I can do fine w/o the meds" I've been shown how dumb an idea [for me] that is! I'm thankful for the meds- life is too precious to sleep away or numb away. And if you, like I used to, have friends who say "depression is not real" or "if you wanted to, you could get off those meds" or [here's the biggy] "if you'd just trust God more", etc., GET NEW FRIENDS!!! There's so much ignorance out there! [I trust God to give me wisdom to take the meds!]

And turn off the TV! If you weren't already depressed, watching it would make you so. T


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,TNDARLN
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:06 PM

And I meant to add, I hope you overcome this episode soon, RD.

And could someone tell me why I'm showing up as a guest all of a sudden? And also, what happened to the thread trace feature? Did I sleep through something? T


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:30 PM

Reset your cookie, TNDARLN- see under 'Quick Links' at the top of this page.

And rd- hope you find somethibg that works.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 01:57 PM

RD--you've tapped into a great supportive group here. Such good advice from people who have exerienced what you're going through.

I had a problem with losing weight during serious depression (prior to filing for divorce). I was skin and bones when I finally "saw" myself in the mirror and realized I had to do something. Exercise did help increase my appetite, and I made sure I ate several small meals during the day. I was probably getting too much sleep, and it all felt like it was fetal position.

I found that making a list of things I needed to do each day, and crossing them off as they were finished was a help. But this only works if your list is realistic and if you include the daily maintenance stuff. Dishes, cooking, laundry, tidying your bedroom, cleaning the cat box. Because just getting through the day is demonstrated when you see on paper all that you really do. Add some task you've wanted to accomplish--paying bills is a good one, or perhaps (and I find very soothing) writing a letter to a friend. A pen and paper kind of letter, with a stamp on it.

My cat has always been good company, and I would hazard a guess that over the years the simple act of taking care of something else that is dependent on me has made a difference. Now that I have children, when I feel depression coming on, I make a point of doing things with them, and being sure that we follow our regular comfort rituals (foods we particularly like at meals, reading a good book at bedtime).

I resisted medications for my depression, because I knew the source of my feelings (divorce) and felt that my brain was trying to tell me to sort it out. As I went through that natural period of adjustment I didn't want to "defer" the process. I was able to get by without medcations, but not everyone can. Take advantage of the resources available. Work out a plan for the future--this helped me most of all--knowing what I wanted to do with myself in the future (I went back to school for my master's, to start with). And it is true--having a good friend to talk to is as good as going into therapy.

Maggie


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: smallpiper
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 03:48 PM

Wow what a supportive lot! Lots of sound advice and I'm sad to say a lot of people who are or have suffered from this terrible condition. Anyone can PM me if they need to talk - I am a counsellor and am happy for people to contact me should they need an ear. No charge! Be well! John


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 06:22 PM

Just a couple of thoughts... for folks of the Christian persuasion, there may be a church in your area that does Christian counseling. I found much of value in a brief stint with traditional psychotherapy but there were times when I wasn't on the same page because of a conflict with my faith. I went to a Christian Counselor... a trained Psychologist who did counselling as a volunteer. I ended up getting some help there that I don't think I could have found through another psychiatrist. I imagine that the Jewish community probably has similar faith-based counseling. There was also a time when I find group therapy very helpful. People in the group were very supportive, but also wouldn't listen to any crap and would tend to come at you when you were b.s.ing, as we're all adept at doing. Sometimes, that was very helpful. Sometimes you need to have someone call you on something that is a rationalization or evasion of the true reason for your action. But hey, EVERY case is different. In the long run, you have to find out through some trial and error, what works.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 06:35 PM

Guest, I've suffered from depression as well (the past 3 years have been hideous on a number of levels), and I must say that the advice above re:getting SOMETHING done every day, be it ever so seemingly minor or ordinary, is absolutely key. I like the salami analogy; I always think of it as a huge pie...if you look at the whole thing in its entirety you become overwhelmed, but if you just small, manageable slices, it starts to get smaller, bit by bit.

This is a rough time of year; the holidays leave us exhausted, financially strapped, and looking down the barrel of several more months of winter. The advice about starting something new that engages you is excellent: get your mind & energy focussed on something that doesn't have any past associations or baggage.

Also make sure to take good physical care of yourself---eat nourishing food at the appropriate times, take that walk even if you don't think you feel like it, turn off the negative "tapes" when they start playing themselves, push yourself out the door to do an errand, CALL A FRIEND (so often I felt I was boring, or a nuisance, when in fact my friends wanted to be there for me if I'd only give them the chance)! You should certainly ring your doctor; maybe you need to resume your meds for awhile, maybe not, but I'm sure there are ways for you to pull out of the slump you feel approaching.

Look after yourself, don't spend too much time on your own & DO let us know how you're feeling!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:01 PM

rd, I am Glenda, The other part of '53'. Bob is my husband and we both know how to sympathize with anyone suffering depression or bipolar problems. I have been on meds for over 10 years, balanced now for about 5. I have been thru divorce as has Bob and we are both happy to now have someone who is understanding. Although I havew been coming to the 'Cat for a while and have found a good community here, I am amazed at the support I see here from Mudcatters for you, for a Guest suffering. I don't mean that I didn't expect it was possible, but it IS touching to see the many who share their stories openly.

We are available also through PMs if you decide to be a Member and want to 'talk'.

Hang in there. The advice here is GREAT.

Thanks to all on behalf of rd, Bob and me. - Glenda


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Bo Vandenberg
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 09:21 PM

This can be a rotten time of year for everyone especially in northern hemisphere.

I have to say value, and find encouraging, all the above advice.

I don't believe enough people have mentioned wide spectrum light, either get out to be in the sun when its out or find yourself a SAD light. Its non invasive and they make a great work light.

Also realize that you have an important task that others don't think about or don't need to do. YOU have to take fight depression. This is not something like finding a parking spot or cleaning up the kitchen (although on a given day those achievements might be a source of joy) this is about lasting through the dark time with too little sun. It takes time and it is a war with many battles.

Promise very little and over achieve if possible rather than commit and dissapoint. Dissapointing people you love is really deadly when you are already depressed.

What Alanabit said about meeting your problems, and the people who steward them is very true. I know how tempting it is to hide from something you cant face but sometimes seeking the other people related to a fear isnt so much about the feared thing as the allies you can gain.

I find I feel much more capable at this time of year when I'm taking care of someone else. Try and find gracious thankful people to share tasks with. Their thankfulness will really help your sense of self. The more they care about your wellbeing the better.

Lastly let me appeal to your logic (this is what I try and remember for myself). If your problem is motivation you have to try NEW things and REVISIT things that WORKED before.


You have to do at least 2 things each day:
1. Help Yourself
No matter if you didnt help yourself yesterday or before. You have a personal value that deserves investment. If you saw a $1000 lying in a hole would you pick it up? YOU personally are worth far more than a $1000. Pick yourself up everyday!
2. Succeed at something. Do something to recognise your own value.


Sigurd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:00 PM

Bread and TV both have been mentioned--Making bread, for some reason, makes you feel really good(even if you don't use it as a punching bag) and commercial television can make you feel really bad--

Uncut movies, theatre, and concerts on public television or cable can actually be therapeutic, but the commercial stuff (especially CNN and that sort of thing) is like a binge on Little Debbie cakes, Barbeque Pringles, Pop Tarts, and circus peanuts--


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Jan 02 - 11:28 PM

There is a cable channel that plays romantic movies in a series called "Cinematherapy." (I don't generally care for them, but the idea is what's important here). My tolerance for sad songs and sad movies is non-existent during times of depression, but this said, there are some films that work very well for me. And programs. I don't often watch commercial television (and I agree, avoid CNN like the plague!), but I find if I look for reruns of Frasier or The Golden Girls I'll be in stitches and it feels so good! Perhaps you have something that works in a similar way for you.

The amount of light in the room is something I pay attention to, I just forgot to mention. There is a small worklight that can be found in the US, I don't know about elsewhere, called the "Ott-Lite" that is excellent to fend of SAD and other depression. I'll set it above my desk or table where I'm working and tip the top of it up high enough that I'm getting the bright daylight-colored light across my forehead and onto the surface where I'm working. It's inexpensive compared to some of the fancy systems, but seems to work. About $30 to $40 here.

Maggie


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:56 AM

Turner Movie Classics is often good for a musical comedy in the morning, and generally on Sunday afternoon as well--If you're not home, video tape is cheap. Also, The Simpsons are generally better than a therapy session--I have some six hour tapes, good for even the most serious personal crises--


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: paddymac
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 01:32 AM

I think it's the rare person that never encounters some form of depression. There's even an entire genre of music dedicated to the problem - the blues. The lucky ones are those who are sentient enough to recognize the creeping onset. Causation, intensity, and curative/restorative mechanisms cover a wide spectrum. If you're lucky enough to know what's happening, but don't think you're making enough progress on your own, by all means look for a professional of some sort, and keep looking until you find one that actually brings you some benefit.

My favorite cure for the blues is to (1) be sure that I force myself to get out and socialize, even if it only means going to my local for a pint and some chat; and 2) start to learn a new song or tune. The focus and concentration required to learn a new tune is just a way to get the mind off feeling sorry for yourself. Plus, there are lots of little "accomplishments" in the process, like mastering something as small as a phrase or pattern in the tune. And then there's always the lyrics.

As everybody already knows from this thread, "everybody gets the blues" sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Bagpuss
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 09:30 AM

First of all remember that just because you are getting the early symptoms of depression, it doesn't mean a slide into full depression. I'm still on medication, and just before christmas I started getting symptoms again and I was absolutely convinced that I would go all the way back down again. But I didn't - I managed to fight it off this time.

I agree that you should look into the possibility of SAD, since a tendency to want to sleep and overeat (especially carbohydrates) are a couple of things that can differentiate it from other types of depression - as well as occurring in the winter months. Did previous depressive periods begin in autumn/winter and tend to resolve in the springtime?

It took me until my 4th episode of winter depression to realise that I had SAD. I now use a light box and St John's Wort in the winter, but I still have to go back on anti depressants sometimes. The lightbox in a godsend to me - and you can buy them with a full refund if you send it back within 21 days because it doesn't work for you. So you won't be taking such a risk with your money. Lightboxes also work more quickly than antidepressants. I usually respond within 5 days.

Other tips: keep talking (to us if you don't feel comfortable talking to others). Try to get out in the fresh air and exercise even when you feel too lethargic and unmotivated. But DON'T beat yourself up over not doing things you think you are supposed to be doing.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 09:42 AM

it's hit me this morning, not depression but a attack of rage and feeling violent, like i want to run my car into something or hurt myself really bad. i know what brought it on but it would be to long to talk about it, but this thread is a good place to put what i have had happen this morning. maybe i'll get thru it maybe not.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 12:12 PM

53: Make sure you talk about it with someone... don't let it slide or think that it will go away...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM

Hi 53

Bob ???

How are you doing ??? Fingers crossed for you.

Much thanks to everyone for your time/thoughts & advice, it is appreciated (& listened to).

rd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Hilary
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 04:40 PM

Hello Kendall,

In the past I've defined myself by my job, & now feel that was a mistake. I'm aiming for a better balance nowadays. I expect you know far more about this than I do, but is there any chance your lost voice is down to winter colds & throat infections ??? IF it is, steamy baths, time & the advice of your local pharmacist may just help. . The first time I lost my voice I was 8 and due to play the Angel Gabriel that afternoon in the school Nativity play. Good luck . H


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM

Hey Bob, were you in my office, because that's just how I felt, when I found someone had messed up the carefully stacked piles I had left on Friday....?

An excercise bike seems to be helping, at least it's mindless enough that I can check out other stuff at the same time.... (can't post though, the keyboard cable isn't long enough, but I'll find a way......)

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 05:53 PM

rd: There's lots of wonderful advice here! Let me add this thought: You may want to consider talking to your medical doctor not only for the reasons stated above, but also to make sure that your symptoms don't have a physical cause that you're not presently aware of. The sort of extreme lethargy you describe might be caused by any number of serious physical problems, including hypothyroidism, multiple schlerosis, lupus, heart disease, dare I say cancer... and more.

I have a couple of autoimmune diseases (lupus and sarcoidosis), and lethargy and depression are part of my everyday life. I once had a therapist who talked me into trying Paxil as a treatment, but it made me so tired and irritable that I couldn't function (driving a car was scary!!) so I finally dropped the Paxil and the therapist. For me, the pain-control meds and inhalers, plus Buspar, have done the trick. But I can tell you from over twenty years of experience that, with any problem that requires long-term medication, it is of the utmost importance that your condition be monitored and your medications adjusted and/or changed as necessary. This means working closely with your medical professionals, getting tested on a regular basis (blood work, X-rays, MRI's or whatever) and discussing alternatives to any pharmaceuticals that are not working for you. If you don't want to be on an anti-depressant, ask your doctor for treatment alternatives. If you feel that he or she isn't willing to explore those alternatives with you, look for another doctor who is.

A word of caution about the suggestion made above to seek religious counseling: be very sure, before you go into that counseling, that the counselor's belief system doesn't include the sort of dogma that will be more harmful than helpful to you. For instance, I stay far, far away from anyone from a church that preaches that God punishes sinners by striking them down with physical diseases!

As the song says, "We all need somebody to lean on" so don't hesitate to lean on the professionals whose job it is to keep you well and on an even keel, as well as on your friends in the 3D world and your supporters at Mudcat! We're pullin' for ya!

Sharon


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 06:13 PM

Kendall --- You can define yourself as my friend. And to others I am sure.


Miz Liz - Have you never thought of an extension cord and duct tape?? Man it's the answer to everything!! Longer cord for the keyboard and duct tape the dang thing in place!!!

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Deda
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 06:50 PM

This is a great thread. The only thing I would add, and it's already been touched on, is that from my own experiences I have gained a lot of respect for how potent depression can be, how strong it can be, and how serious it can be. The point of this is only that you need to take the measure of what it is you're up against, and don't underestimate it. That is NOT to say that you can't overcome it. Many of us have, or at least have come to terms with it and managed to carve out a way to live without succumbing. I have dozens of things that have helped, but I think all have been mentioned. But if you had TB, you wouldn't want anyone telling you it was just a cold. You need to arm yourself for the right battle, so to speak.

Kendall -- you haven't lost your voice as far as any of us are concerned. Your mudcat voice is as clear as ever. And if you count yourself a speaker, you can always speak here, even if you're temporarily mute in Maine.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:11 PM

I don't mean to poke fun at the topic but perhaps a bit of a laugh would be appreciated in this crowd. At any rate, it's a lesson not to rely too heavily on hypnosis. OK, it's off topic, but what the hell. Maybe it'll bring a smile while some of us worry over Bob. (Like me.)

The town fathers were looking for a way to increase attendance and participation at their regular meetings. One member suggested bringing in a hypnotist.

The officials agreed. A famous hypnotist was hired, publicity distributed, and everyone was pleased.

A few weeks later the meeting hall was packed, and the townspeople sat fascinated as the hypnotist withdrew a beautiful antique pocket watch from his coat. He began to swing it gently back and forth while quietly chanting, "Watch the watch, watch the watch, watch the watch ..."

The crowd became mesmerized... the watch swayed back and forth... light gleamed off its polished surface....

Hundreds of pairs of eyes followed the swaying watch, until suddenly-- it slipped from the hypnotist's fingers and fell to the floor, breaking into a hundred pieces.

"Shit!" said the hypnotist.

It took three weeks to clean up the town hall...

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:18 PM

I wanted to post this separately fvrom the post above so excuse me for posting right back again.

This is for people whose depressions run in a bipolar fashion-- and you especially, Bob-- whatever the underlying cause.

Be very, very careful about your Mudcatting. The speed of thread loading, and the way you can thread-hop, zinging points around, can take you when you are in a manic phase and really wind you up, as one of our regular members found when he first joined. Yes, Mudcat can cheer up a gloomy day. But if you are on the upswing of your cycle... it can really jazz you up past whatever you thought you had learned about self-management in your recovery. Think of it as a drug interaction.... You may need a break from Mudcat to rethink how to participate in such a way that it does not exacerbate the problem.

So.... take it easy, OK?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 08:33 PM

Thanks for the kind words Hilary, Deda, Norton!...I had another exam today, and this guy just doesn't know what he is looking at. He keeps saying it is "abnormal" irritated, maybe I need a laryngoscopy or a biopsy. All I know is, I lost my voice two months ago today, and four professionals have no clue why. I can stand the despair, it's the hope that's killing me!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 09:29 PM

I heard from Glenda this evening that Bob is doing better now.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:26 PM

I'm still new here, but I'm guessing that two crises have been averted? RD and Bob are two different individuals? Keep in touch with the thread, both of you, if you feel it helps. And the advice about not getting hooked on the list is also good. Taking a break from the computer and dependency on this list is a part of healing.

Voicelessness: Diane Rehm (may be spelled differently) on NPR has something-or-other dysphonia--she loses her voice due to a constriction, and you can hear it coming on over time. She'll go away for a week or two, and after a treatment (an injection in the vocal chords of a botulism concoction) she's back talking. Seems over the months and years that she struggled with this a doctor who listened to the program knew that is what plagued her, but somehow it wasn't ethical for him to contact her to say so. He was a guest on her program after she was diagnosed and treated. Talk about waiting for the other shoe to drop!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:13 AM

Hi WSIWYG, I completely agree about seeing the funny side of things(& I know I haven't slipped too far as a lot of humour Is still funny). I was watching a video of 'Monarch of the Glen Last' (UK tv) last night - very funny right until Richard Briers blew himself up. Now I AM worried - THAT is striking me as funny.

Hi SharonA You've a good point about a general check-up, I do seem to have gone down with a lot of bugs in the last few months.

Hi Kendall, I think I know what you mean about the danger of hope. I can live fine in the middle as far as expectations go,but then get too ambitious singing/relationships whatever & then have to live with toning hopes down when they have become too unrealistic.

Good luck everyone

rd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:48 AM

I have been through two emotional breakdowns...both lasting almost a year....was dangerously close to a third and death this last spring/early summer....was dangerously close to death during the second breakdown...I would not leave my house...save to step out on the porch...would eat little....save for comfort food...and feel worse...could barely smile...both times unemployed and no income whatsoever coming in...was living off of my parents...who barely tolerated it...the first time after 10 months I was force by my mother to go on the oregon health plan and then get some meds....the second time i was on the verge of homeless...but i got emplyed just in the nick of time...and started pulling myself from the darkness...with the help of a woman to whom I will always be grateful...even if we are no longer speaking....i went back on the meds last summer...but ran out of prescriptions last fall...and have yet to go back to the doctor...not a very doctor friendly person...seen too many idiots in white coats over the years....besides things have stacked up and i could not get the time to do so...or at least that is what i tell myself...might be i am just too comfortable with depression...the thought of being "normal" scares me....oh well...


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,53 Glenda at work
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:00 AM

Susan,

Bob and I laughed and laughed at the town hall hypnotist story. Very funny.

He seems to be adjusting to a new med ok. Perhaps it will finally be the right one? After a year I hope so. It is hard when one's husband (or wife) is sick and doctors can't seem to come up w/right diagnosis or right med.

We are hanging in there tho'

Thanks to all who are so caring!

Glenda


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:03 PM

Hi back atcha, rd! Yeah, a check-up couldn't hurt. Even if there isn't some nasty undetected disease lurking in your body, the very fact that you've had "a lot of bugs in the last few months" might very well have left you feeling run-down and in need of lots of R&R.... and susceptible to bigger "bugs" (ya don't need to come down with pneumonia, either)!

Sorry if I sound like a hypochondriac, but it's only because I know from personal experience that, sometimes, it isn't "all in your mind"!

The 53's: I'm glad to hear that Bob is apparently adjusting to the new medication. Here's hoping it really is the right one.

Sharon


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM

One of the things I have most admired about Mudcat is that whenever we have had threads abour depression, people have respected one another so deeply. Creative types often run to emotional volatility of all sorts, and so when we talk about this I see us at some of our best. No stones thrown, no "poor-you" stuff, just understanding that I think carries over into the other threads as well, once people have been so open. And we really seem to expect one another to carry on... to keep the music going no matter what hurts. We value the effort to keep going, above many other values in this place.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:34 PM

SharonA, that's an excellent point about things NOT always being "all in your mind"! I think all too often we tend to dismiss our feelings (or allow them to be dismissed by others) as something that will pass, or that we have to "get over", etc. It's so important to recognise when we need to get some help.

I have to say that I, too, have been totally & wonderfully impressed at the outpouring of empathy, support & excellent advice in this thread---"How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! Oh, brave new world, that has such people in it!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM

Amergin - "the thought of being normal scares me" Years ago, Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band had an LP called 'The do(ugh)nut in Granny's Greenhouse'. This contained the immortal line "Normal? If you're normal I intend to be a freak for the rest of my life!" I took this on as my motto, with or without the tablets! Hope you, and all reading this thread, get to wherever you're really wanting to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 03:20 PM

it seems like i've been bonkers for years, i've known that something was wrong for a long time, but when it all started to crumble, that's when i knew i was going down,and i did go down, and i'm still down a lot of times, sometimes i'd just like to stop taking all meds and see what hapens, i have high bp too and that med doesn't help things any. thanks for caring, BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 04:30 PM

Now there's a lifter... the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band, cleaned up to become the Bonzo Dog Band. Not a bad idea to take heavy dose of Bonzo once in awhile..
Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM

RD,
You recognize that you are slipping back into depression. That is positive. Now, do what you know you have to do to reverse it or at least control it. If you have been on medications, you know that depression is the result of a chemical inbalance in the brain. Get a physical, see your therapist, and follow all of the above advice. Keep talking to people who are sympathetic. The urge to hide (at least for me) is dangerous. Email me at SINSULL@AOL.COM, if you need to talk. I am back from potential suicide to a recognition that life and mine, in particular, is too precious to waste.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:09 PM

it happened again this morning, i had an attack of violent rage, an anger, i broke my table and i cut my head, i dont know waht brings these on, but i've now taken enough medicine that maybe it will bring it under control, if it doesn't i'll just dump down a few more pills till it goes away, i was afraid even to turn on my computor, afraid that i would brak that too, and i know that i can't play guitar right now, cause i'dprobaly break that too, i just don't know how much more of these i can take. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 01:17 PM

vitamin klopin, and serequel make good bed buddies during times like these, it doesn't take a whole lot to get you right, or sometimes real wrong, so have a good day, and happy drugs to all. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 02:03 PM

Now Bob, check with the doc-- don't self-dose!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Deda
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:01 PM

Bob,

I agree w/ Susan, I hope you're getting some professional input into what to take when, how much, and not just tossing pills back like popcorn, so to speak. Dosage and interactions can be a very big deal in how, whether meds work, as you know probably much better than I do. I don't mean to sound preachy, I'm just concerned and hope that the worst has passed, and that you're recovering some balance. I am sorry to read about the rage you've experienced, and especially sorry that it cuts you off from being able to play music. You probably can't break your voice in anger, so maybe you can sing?


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: marty D
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM

After reading a couple of unrelated Pop music threads and now where this has gone, I find it quite disturbing. Forums like these can be a great help to people able to share ideas and absorb and disseminate information, but they can result in disaster as well. A generally unmoderated forum can be rife with some very strange agendae, which can really hurt fragile people. Getting alternately positive and then negative reactions (the other threads) can be dangerous.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:35 AM

Yeah, all the encouragement and shared experiences are important, but Mudcat can't be a substitute for professional help. I read things here that worked for someone else that I know either wouldn't have worked for me, or I wasn't in any shape to do. The best thing about this thread isn't that it can solve your problems, rd, or 53. It just tells you that you are not alone, and that people care enough about you. But, Pleazzzze see someone who can help you figure out what will work best for you. I didn't take medication. Does that mean that I should encourage you not to take it? Not at all. Some people self-dosed or used herbal remedies. Should you? I dunno. Some folks thing that aloe can cure anything. The best general advice I've seen is to have a PLAN. Man, there's nothing like having a Plan. That means that you are not succumbing to the feeling of helplessness. If you try something and it doesn't help, try something else. But, get someone more knowledgeable than us to help. If you had cancer, would you just consult with other people who have cancer for treatment. I don't think so.. My prayers are with all those who know how dark the night is.
Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM

Hi Jerry, thanks for the post. I agree with most of what you say. I posted here in the hope of a few suggestions that real people dealing with their situations had found helped, it was always going to be my responsibility which bits were going to be useful to me. The strength of feeling behind all the recommendations is incredible - but why post something you have no faith in. Luckily, I have access to the literature - the bio-chemistry & statistics etc, but it was the view from the ground I really felt I needed. At the moment, I'm not planning to raise the depression issue with my GP, mostly because I think I am not slipping too badly - & with help from friends & here I hope I'll get past this. I don't regret AT ALL that I asked for GP help 5 years ago, I was so down & had fewer resources to draw on then, & without the meds, I dunno. & Other people here have spoken highly of that route. I would NEVER want to put off anyone who needs to speak to their GP, but anyone should be aware there are a few drawbacks. I typed a paragraph of of own personal reservations, but deleted it - because if you need that level of help you need it. A bit of advice from me (may only be valid in uk) but if you're getting nowhere with your GP - you can change GP. I was lucky - my 1st GP was ok & since moving house - current one is great,unfortunately it's not always the case !

Anyway - my hopes of a few ideas were truly surpassed.

Got to get ready to go out now. I've been dithering all day about whether to go, but now sort of looking forward it.

Best foot forward everyone,

rd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:35 PM

My message to all, whether depressed or not:

Don't think of antidepressants as a crutch. Think of them as an artificial leg.
If you're missing something you ought to have, medical science can often replace it. It's the thinking of the meds as a crutch that makes people want to go off them when they're doing OK, which will make them NOT do OK because it ISN'T a crutch, it's an artificial leg, and without it... you fall over. There is very little about depression, and even less about manic depression, that isn't biological (disagreeing with the above "Depression generally stems from a feeling of not being able to solve some issues." That outdated thinking is dangerous! YES, there may be some actual issue that is upsetting enough to start the process, or bring it to a head, but the issue didn't CAUSE the depression, it provided a context in which it could appear, whereas pre-issue, it was most likely dormant or appearing in other contexts (hives, cramps, headaches...).

Which DOESN'T mean that therapy and dealing with the issue(s) isn't of equal and paramount importance; it's just that dealing ONLY with the issue WILL NOT CURE THE DEPRESSION.

And if you are just down about something and dealing with the something deals with the being down, you are pretty much by definition not depressed. Even if the degree to which you're down prevents you from functioning and requires intervention - your problem will have a different diagnosis.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:40 PM

As a clinician, who also struggles with depression/anxiety, I have really struggled with a General Practice physician prescribing psychotropic medications. In the hospital where I work it is now becoming standard practice to also refer the individual to a social worker, psychologist, or counselor to follow up on a regular (weekly) basis to ensure the medication is doing as intended. Medication is, at best, a bull in a china cabinet. We really don't know why some things work the way they do. Lots of theories but very little actual proof. Many medications are given for mental health issues because of the side effect they have found when treating other disorders.

I also believe there are four parts to a human being. And all four parts need to be included in the treatment plan.

1) The physical - medications and exercise

2) The mental - Talk to someone you trust

3) The emotional - There is an excellent book out there called, "What You feel You Can Heal." by John Gray Ph.D.. Emotions are very important and must be acknowledged and addressed in an appropriate manner.

4) The spiritual - We all believe in something - even the Aetheists have to believe in order to not believe (whole nother discussion *G*) and it is equally important to participate in those rituals.

One alcoholic I worked with finally accepted that his coffee cup was bigger than he was - he could quit drinking but went bonkers if he couldn't find his cup. And spirituality is about believing in something larger than ourselves.

The above are general statements and are not intended as treatment for any of the issues presented in this thread. Every person is unique and requires special care - and that care, when the symptoms are serious, really needs to be handled in concert with professionals.

My last thing is responsibility. Recovery is the onus of the individual. I am responsible to do what I need to do to feel well. So I am quite assertive about requesting changes if what I, and others, are doing appears to not be working.

Be well folks my thoughts are with you-

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 02:48 PM

For family reasons I won't go into, I watched the news & read New Scientist lighting on articles about Prozac, depression and similar, still do.
One article that sat up and wouldn't be ignored was about dieting. If you loose too much weight too quickly it starves the brain of essentials and it shrinks. The observable effects are to induce symptoms which are uncannily like depression. Is this information any use? From my own experience I can vouch for that but my experience was bound-up in a sense if failure and having to give-up a goal. I found playing badminton a real help then, it is a competetive thing, a co-operative thing, and a physical thing.
Yep I endorse the old excercise wheeze, walking to work makes me feel good, walking home much better, but that job is gone now, boo hoo.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 03:34 PM

I went through a very sticky patch about six years ago, and for those who have never had it (and hope you never do!), depression is gawdawful! It's not just "having the blues" or feeling a bit down—it's debilitating. If you've never been there, it's impossible to understand just how low you can feel. Don't try to handle it by yourself. Get help.

I had polio when I was two years old and walked with aluminum forearm crutches all my life. Nevertheless, I've led a rich and active life. During the late Fifties and on into the Sixties I sang almost every weekend in one coffeehouse or another, I did a batch of concerts and some TV, and made a thoroughly enjoyable if somewhat marginal living by singing. I used to clomp out onto the stage and sit down exactly like Itzak Perlman does, with someone caring my guitar for me. I continued performing from time to time on into the Seventies and Eighties, not quite as much as before, but still performing. In spite of having to walk with crutches, there wasn't much I wanted to do that I couldn't.

Then on February 5th, 1990, I fell and broke my "good" leg. That put me in a wheelchair, no longer able to walk with crutches. Suddenly there were a lot of things I wanted to do that I couldn't. And ADA notwithstanding, there are many places you just cannot go if you're stuck in a wheelchair. Because of the disability, my life had been slightly restricted before (climbing Mt. Everest or Olympic track and field was pretty well out). Now, I was really restricted. Among other things, have you ever tried playing a guitar while sitting in a wheelchair? The right wheel is where you want the lower bout of the guitar to be, and it throws the guitar way out of position. Really screws things up!

It took about five years for this change to sink in. I read a lot, wrote a lot, watched a lot of TV, still played the guitar while sitting on the bed, went out some, but it's a real struggle transferring from wheelchair to car and back again. My universe had contracted drastically.

Then, suddenly, I started having panic attacks. Shortly after that, all enthusiasm for existence sank into the deepest pit imaginable. Without dwelling on that, suffice it to say that it was, by far, the worst period in my life.

My wife Barbara had been through something like this before and she knew what to do. She took me to a counselor. The counselor sent me to a psychiatrist for evaluation. The psychiatrist diagnosed it as clinical depression, and put me on Xanex for the panic attacks, and prescribed an anti-depressant. We tried Zoloft first, and it made it worse! Then we tried Effexor, and that was no better. The damned anti-depressant made me feel downright suicidal! I decided that somehow I would have to deal with this without the anti-depressant. But how?

It was my sister who gave me the clue. "Clinical depression?" she said. "I don't think so. Clinical depression is physiological—a matter of brain chemistry. But take a look at the drastic way your life has changed recently. I think what you have is situational depression. Anti-depressants won't help that, and they might just make it worse. Stick with the counselor" (Without going into my sister's qualifications, she does know what she's talking about.)

I followed my sister's advice. It took a couple of months with the counselor and my mood began to lift—actually, it began to lift within a couple of weeks, because I was doing something about it. I stuck with the counselor for a couple of years. We talked a lot, and with her help I managed to clean out a bunch of mental closets. She helped me immensely in learning how to cope with my situation—and to find ways to expand my universe as much as possible.

Now? I'm okay. I acknowledge my situation and face it squarely. It's damned frustrating and I don't try to deny it. But—no more depression and no more panic attacks. All in all, I feel pretty good. I still don't get around very much, but I write a lot, I read a lot, I watch a fair amount of TV, and I cruise the internet a lot (spending an inordinate amount of time on Mudcat). I also developed a pretty fair solution to the problem of playing a guitar while sitting in the wheelchair. I bought a small travel guitar, a Go guitar made by Sam Radding in San Diego, which actually sounds like a real guitar (!), and with a strap, I can hold it securely in a good position without the wheel interfering. It's still a hassle getting in and out of a car, but every now and then Bob and Judy Nelson have a songfest at their place in Everett, and Barbara and I go up. Bob tips the wheelchair back like a hand-truck and lifts my up his two front steps and into the house, then a batch of us sing up a storm for the next few hours. What's my current major project? I'm "writing my memoirs," which is a thoroughly enjoyable nostalgia-trip, and trying get all the songs I know, tunes, annotations and all, into some kind of a songbook.

Get counseling. But try to keep on top of things. Don't necessarily accept everything you're told. Many psychiatrists tend to take the easy way and reach for the prescription pad when what is really needed is counseling. Sometimes pharmaceuticals don't solve the problem; they just cover it up and it's still there waiting to pop out again. As much as you can, try to be the judge of your own condition.

Winston Churchill suffered from bouts of depression. He called it "the black dog." I'm in pretty good shape right now, but if my "black dog" ever returns, I know what to do.

I hope this helps.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:07 PM

Thanks Don, it's good to know you.

Noreen


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: KAS
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 10:53 PM

I would like to second Bonnie Shaljean's really excellent book recommendation: "The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression" by Andrew Solomon. ISBN 0-684-85466-X.

By far the best, most insightful thing I've seen on the subject, extremely useful for me and for friends, family, colleagues, and artists - anyone interacting with depressives, wondering what it's like, what distinguishes it from other difficult conditions, or why I and lots of other people fighting it act the way we do a lot of the time. Good insights on coping strategies along with incredibly smart, balanced, well-written and well-researched look at the science, history, and sociology of the phenomenon itself. Occasional laugh lines too. Helping me a great deal; I recommend it big-time.


Over the past few years, even (especially) as many things in my life have gotten harder, and even as (on many days) my depression hammers me into an ugly incapable crate, I have come to know that - along with an atrophied but stubborn belief in myself, care for all my crafts, proper medication and responsible therapy, and basic support from all my many families - my singing, and the voices of those close around me and you all on Mudcat have certainly saved my life.


Thanks,

Ken Schatz


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 11:20 PM

Thanks for telling us your story, Don--it is very reasuring for those of us who have, and deal with, disabilities, to hear about others who have figured out away to make it work--


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd's ex
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:54 AM

Sorry to report that she used the Glock and has joined the Minstral boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:25 AM

Guest (posing as rd's ex) would that be?:

The minstrel boy to the war is gone,
In the ranks of death you'll find him;

Very bad taste, visitor. This one could stand to be excised.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:45 AM

Don, I'd like to say thank you, too. Being tethered to a line of oxygen gets depressing at times, but I am thankfull that I am able to get around. You are a shining example of working around, through, and beyond a perceived limitation and what you have shared is invaluable. Another one who inspires me, in that way, is Art Thieme.

I made it through situational depression last year. Didn't think I would and finally did take zoloft for a short period of time, BUT I have to say it was support of Mudcat friends and family that really helped me cope and move on.

If someone does not have a dog of their own, or a cat, animal shelters, esp. no-kill facilities (otherwise it is really depressing), are a good place to go help out. The cats always need petting and grooming; the dogs always enjoy a walk and personal attention.

My brother was almost homebound with depression when he started getting out, once per week, to volunteer at the local Humane Society. He had cats at home, but getting out there to help with the homeless cats got him out of the house, gave him some purpose in life, and made him feel better about himself, because he felt he was contributing in a meaningful way. Of course, if one wants to take them all home and cannot, this suggestion wouldn't be a good one, as that would add to the depression.:-)

One of the best things I've read in this thread bears repeating, imo. It was posted by Jerry Rasmussen:

One of the hardest things to do in life is to love yourself. There is this misunderstanding about loving yourself and being selfish. I think that the only way that you can become a loving, generous, outward-looking person is to love yourself, forgive yourself, and don't let ANYONE rub your nose in the past.

In all cases of depression I've seen, self-love was very low or non-existent. One of the things which I recommend is "mirror-work." Try to look at yourself in the mirror and smile at yourself. Try to say, out loud, "(Your name), I love you." It may take time, but if you can start out even once per day and be consistent with it, it may help. A lot of it depends on your ability to believe in a new way of looking at yourself. It is a tough conundrum of life: if we love ourselves, it attracts others to love us. If we don't love ourselves, it can be difficult for anyone else to do so. I've had over 40 years of experience with a family member who is like this and eventually people pull away because they realise nothing they can do will change things. It is up to the person, themselves, to take the first step and make the changes.

Of course, all of the above goes along with what everyone else has said re' all types of treatment and therapy. Only you will know what works best for you.

All the best and keep talking to us, please, rd and Bob53, and anyone else who needs to...

luvyakat


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:03 AM

Before the discussion was so rudely interrupted, I found I must once again disagree with Jerry. He remarked:

If you had cancer, would you just consult with other people who have cancer for treatment. I don't think so..

I know so! Yes, absolutely! The people who had experienced cancer were the most supportive and helpful when it came to deciding how to approach my cancer. And the best thing they could do was to report the positive outcomes in their personal lives. "My sister-in-law had the same thing 20 years ago, and has been fine ever since her surgery" was just what I needed to hear. And I have had occasion since my surgery to give positive support to a friend in a similar situation. The day I understood exactly the relief I must have shown when that friend told me of her sister's recovery was the day I visited a coworker who asked me to come see her because she heard I'd had the same thing she now had. It was tremendously important to her outlook to hear my non-clinical story from me. Don't ever underestimate the value of this kind of exchange.

I must also disagree with Mrrzy as the the extent of "cure" you seem to place within the province of medication. You said (I'll attempt block quotes):

    There is very little about depression, and even less about manic depression, that isn't biological (disagreeing with the above "Depression generally stems from a feeling of not being able to solve some issues." That outdated thinking is dangerous! YES, there may be some actual issue that is upsetting enough to start the process, or bring it to a head, but the issue didn't CAUSE the depression, it provided a context in which it could appear, whereas pre-issue, it was most likely dormant or appearing in other contexts (hives, cramps, headaches...).

    Which DOESN'T mean that therapy and dealing with the issue(s) isn't of equal and paramount importance; it's just that dealing ONLY with the issue WILL NOT CURE THE DEPRESSION.

I think the entire cause of some forms of depression can be emotional, which brings on the biological reaction, not the other way around. I think the "outdated thinking" is the statements you made regarding the origins of depression--it's too exclusive a statement. It sounds like something a drug company representative might try to pull over on a GP who isn't as schooled in recognizing or dealing with depression as they might be.

Freud called psychoanalysis the "Talking Cure," and it really can be. More recent findings show that having a good friend to talk to can be just as useful as analysis. What was revolutionary and a closely-held theory of treatment 100+ years ago regarding information about human thought and communication is widely understood by many people today. We are able to effect our own cures if we pay attention to what our bodies are trying to tell us about our mental states and if we can talk it out. Drugs should never be dismissed as an aid to recovery, or as an outright cure to some forms of depression, but the cruch/artifical leg analogy doesn't work for me. It's too rigidly biased in the direction of the drug companies.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:13 AM

I agree with Kat--she chose a good remark from Jerry's earlier post to remark on. I didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with everything he said, just those items I highlighted.

Don--I remember times in the kinda-recent past (over the last 15 years or so) when I've met you that I wondered if you weren't dealing with depression--there was anger in you, and self-directed, it becomes depression. I am so glad to read that you've worked through it. I want to add my voice to the others who are urging you to go ahead and finish that autobiography cum history of the Northwest folk circuit that you're writing. The portions of it that you've posted have been fascinating.

Maggie


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:53 AM

Maggie (Stilly River Sage): About your post of 18-Jan-02 - 02:03 AM in which you disputed Jerry's statement, "If you had cancer, would you just consult with other people who have cancer for treatment. I don't think so...", I think the operative word in that statement is "just. Of course it's helpful to talk with others who have gone through what one is going through, who can offer advice and support. But that's only one facet of treatment. In your own case, if you had had supportive friends without also having had surgery, then your tumor would still be in your body!

And wouldn't that be depressing?! ;^)

Seriously, I think that Jerry (in his post of 17-Jan-02 - 07:35 AM) was simply trying to encourage rd, 53 and others not to depend solely on the advice of friends and strangers on the internet, but also to get professional advice. As he said, "Get someone more knowledgeable than us to help."


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:53 AM

rd?? You there??? Log in, please! I mean, I don't really believe "ex"'s post, but... still...

It would be really nice to hear your voice -


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:58 AM

just make sure that you have plenty of candy on hand, it seems to help, if not it will put you to sleep, candy is good for everybody.BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:00 AM

I'm concerned about Bob 53, too. Bob, let us hear from you, please!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM

Whoops, I cross-posted with Bob! Good to see ya, 53.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:26 AM

I am not in the pay of the drug companies, I just don't believe people should struggle with things that they can get help for. See the situational depression story Don Firth told... yes, situations can cause you to feel depressed, which can be cured by dealing with the situation. Even if it were biological, you'd still need to deal with the situation that brought it out. But don't feel that drugs are crutches, evil by definition. They aren't, even if their manufacturers are!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 11:31 AM

Sharon A, you're right. Dyslexia does cause me to drop out words at times. Though the conjecture at the cancer still being there isn't correct in this case (luckily!); a simple procedure removed it (was supposed to just remove a bleeding polyp). Pathology came with the news of cancer on that polyp, and the "clear margin" is what the follow-up surgery was about.

So what is there to the little remark above by the guest claiming to be rd's "ex"? Does anyone know more about he/she? (rd or the guest?) There's always at least one hothead around who will shout "jump" at someone poised on a bridge. There was a case in the news some months back, of motorists pissed off about a traffic jam. She actually did jump. Was that in Seattle? I remember being really surprised at the city in which it occurred.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:03 PM

be sure you drink lots of water. Eat lots of salmon or other fatty fish..lack of fatty acids can cause all sorts of havoc...read up on essential fats and oils. Avoid all margerine and eat butter, olive oil, coconut oil and whatever other vegetable oils you conclude are healthy. I can't figure it all out. If you take calcium, and maybe you should, because it is really important for the neural system, take it and sit out in the sun so you get your vitamin D. They say (don't know who they is) the cozy feeling you get from sitting in the sun has to do with the vitamin D helping your calcium into your bones. Get outside in the sun in the middle of the day, if you are northern, for about an hour or so sans glasss or contacts. Get fresh air flowing through your office and home. Stagnant air can only lead to stagnant minds. Read up on eating excessive carbohydrates (starches and sugars) and the effects of this insulin-sugar spiral. Get rid of as much clutter in your house and garage as you can. This is in addition to seeking professional help. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:28 PM

Two clarifications... I didn't mean that talking with others who have had similar problems wasn't desireable. This thread has been beautiful in that regard. It also means an enormous amount to be able to tell people who are suffering, that you or someone you know has gone through the same problem and has completely recovered. I think it's very helpful to hear other people's stories, and how they have found relief. The point I made poorly is that if you read this whole thread, you'll see that there isn't any one approach to depression that works for everyone. If there was, we wouldn't have this thread. Get all the advice and encouragement and personal histories that you can. Just don't rely on the experience of others as your only source for diagnosis. Don't rely completely on Psychiatrists, either. They can be wrong, too. But, they at least have been trained to recognize symptoms and have some history of success in treating them. (Most of the time.)
I also think that you could probably divide our experiencings into Situational Depression," or as mine was called a "Depressive Reaction," from people who have a lifetime chemical imbalance. I had a depressive reaction almost thirty years ago because I was under more pressure than I could bear. When I learned how to resolve the issues I was dealing with, I didn't have to deal with depression again. (A major part of learning how to deal with the pressures in my life was to come to love myself.) I would not confuse what I went through with some of the suffering that others here have, and are experiencing. I have good friends who have suffered with depression their whole lives. They think in terms of "management," not "cure." God bless 'em..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:56 PM

Maggie (SRS): I'm very glad to hear that your cancer is history!

mgarvey: Eek! I'd mentioned in an earlier post to this thread that rd's lethargy could be a symptom of lupus. If it turns out that (s)he does have lupus, sitting out in the sun in the middle of the day would be very bad – it could cause a "flare-up" and trigger symptoms to worsen.

This is why I recommend seeing a physician to rule out uncommon diseases that could manifest themselves via lethargy and depression. A treatment that might be beneficial for the majority of people could be disastrous for individuals with certain chronic ailments!!!

Please, please, please, anyone who's reading this wondering what to do about the onset of symptoms that might be diagnosed by a psychiatrist as "depression", don't assume blindly that a psychological problem is the cause, or if so that it's the only cause. Please make sure that your plan of action includes a consultation with your medical professional – a physician!!!!!

Sharon


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:34 PM

Very much here. Least said soonest about imposters I think. rd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM

GOOD for you, rd. Good to see you and you are absolutely right!


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM

Although people are not helpful when they are abusively in someone's face about the past, it is also true that a step in recovery involves taking stock of what damage one may have done when not at one's best, and seeing what needs to happen to move things forward in those areas when possible.

Trust can be lost, and it isn't regained by ignoring what happened. The damage needs to be acknowledged and aplogized for, without any self-blame but with an acknowledgement that a commitment of some kind may have been breached. Trust can be regained once this happens, if the other person is willing, or becomes willing LATER after doing their own healing about the situation.

I have seen lots of people pursuing their recovery, in the stage before they learn this, stuck in a place where to escape a feeling of self-blame they deny any responsibility whatever for what occurred. This transfers part of responsibility for their recovery to the people around them-- "You are making me not able to recover by blaming me." Yes, blame can be hurtful, but we can heal even if others around us are not yet ready to forgive. Doesn't mean we have to subject ourselves to their abuse about it-- but it doesn't mean we can dictate the speed of their own healing, any more than it helps us when they dictate the speed of our own.

Nothing like two people healing at different rates, from different sides of a mess, to make simple stuff real complicated.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 07:46 PM

at first my doctor thought that i was smoking pot and that i was a drunk, but the only thing that i was addicted to was xanax, and boy oh boy. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:25 PM

Mary,

Your sunshine cure is perfect for the Pacific Northwest--but an hour in the sun during the middle of the day down here would cause severe sunburn and heat stroke. I miss those Puget Sound summers. And the remark about clutter is right on--it can be a depressing challenge. Couple it with small space and it can be deadly (though the cats think it's fun to slither through some of my stacks of paper). I have a book around here about getting control of the clutter. . . it's in a stack of books somewhere. . .

Calcium is a supplement that I need to research. I am aware that one shouldn't take calcium at the same time as taking other vitamins because it can block absorbsion. I think this could also be the case with medications and hormone replacement or birth control. On the other hand, since women with northern European origins are particularly succeptible to osteoporosis, calcium (and exercise) are very important to maintain bone density.

This has been a very informative thread. And it's so easy to join Mudcat, that I urge rd to join and be able to take advantage of all of the offers of personal messages.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:30 PM

this thread is getting so large, maybe we should start a second page. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:06 PM

Hmmm...or let it die, as there has been more than a little nastiness in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,,gargoyle
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 12:21 AM

What pathos, what enigma, what a wretched state of humanity! Please seek profesional counseling.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 12:23 AM

You know....singing the BLUES has been a time tested cure for depression....and given the nature of this forum....it might not be a good choice....let us know how it works....and most of all PLEASE post your lyrics.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 01:24 AM

Seems the only "nastiness" is from those labelled "GUEST"(no name attached) who go slumming through the site and snipe at contributors. Fly-by-night visitors who leave their droppings on the list.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 01:33 AM

Good people, (I ignore the others.) I do sympathise and empathise but right now, I'm just not up to or into talking about the many ways someone very close to me is suffering right now from this.

Gargoyle, I doubt you mean well---so go to hell. I too wish there were mostly music threads here; I've said that often enough. But there are other things in this life worth talking about too.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: GUEST,rd
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 05:44 AM

It has only just dawned on me... In my original post I mentioned a friend who self-harms, this really is a different person -not me. Not 'code'. I have a feeling that's why folks have been so insistent of professional advice - & believe me I do encourage my friend to think about help from people who understand severe self-harm much better than I do. Loving/worrying about someone in so much pain isn't easy, as other people who have spoken here know all too well. If there is anyone who dos know anything about supporting someone at such risk, would you be willing to post who you are ? I can PM - & can explain why I CAN pm in a PM. Given there a few pratts out there maybe best not to post anything to fuel the fire ???? I'm sorry if I've caused anxiety, there's enough of that around as it is. Much thanks to you all.

rd


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 12:09 PM

Art's point is well taken. And as one who made the conscious decision to go into more detail for the sake of offering moral support, I wish I had more musical content to contribute to the list. (I do have a musical question to post soon, but I'll search the site before posting it because it may have been discussed already). In the meantime, Art's reservations are perfectly understandable. It is much easier to discuss episodes of depression once one has the feeling of having resolved the (latest) problem. I strongly suspect that if no one on the list had ever shared these kinds of experiences we'd have far less insight to put into our composition or interpretation of the music that is important to all of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 02:10 PM

rd, there is a lot of good info at this site for your friend. It ahs a personal account, but it also gives info on the psychology, what may trigger the behaviour, and also lists some helpful books and websites. I don't know anything specific to physical self-harm, but please feel free to PM me, if you think I can be of help.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: marty D
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 02:47 PM

Once again I find myself having worried a bit needlesly about how Mudcatters handle flamers. Even the most obviously troubled (those who wish death on others) are handled very differently here than other sites. Rarely do they get more than a casual acknowledgement, and are usually ignored outright. Boy, that speaks well of a community, cyber or otherwise. There's probably only one or two and they simply aren't able to get more than an occasional toe-hold in here. I gather this thread has been of help to quite a few people, and may continue, if a second part starts. Bravo Mudcat for not giving satisfaction to those who's depression forces them to hurt others.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 02:51 PM

God bless those who find mercy in sleep
All those who sow who never will reap
All those who search, who never find peace
May they find rest tonight
Even guests who drop in on a loving, decidedly respectful, unnasty discussion and leave their "droppings." A great, accurate term, Stilly..
Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM

Xanax. I know what you mean, Bob. Xanex (generic = alprazolam) is a benzodiazepine based central nervous system depressant prescribed as a tranquilizer. Quite effective. Also highly addictive. The psychiatrist who prescribed it for me specified that I take a fairly whopping dose every six hours, with a double dose at bedtime. This left me comatose. After of couple of days of this, on my own, I cut the doses in half. I was still pretty mellow, but at least I wasn't constantly falling asleep with my nose in my porridge.

Barbara works at the Seattle Public Library, and she brought home an armload of books that I asked for: on depression, on panic attacks, and on various kinds of related drugs. As a patient, I am a general pain in the ass, because I like to be informed and I ask doctors a lot of questions. From my reading I learned that benzodiazepine tranquilizers are highly addictive. The shrink hadn't told me that. And when I brought it up, he assured me that it wasn't true, and urged me to keep taking it, well beyond the point where I felt that I needed it. I knew better. I wanted to get off the stuff. My counselor supported me in my efforts, but she had to go gently because, although she had degrees in social work and family counseling, she didn't have an MD following her name. I kept taking it, but in reduced doses, much to the psychiatrist's disapproval. Then I began to spread the doses out, going eight hours instead of six. I talked the pharmacist into giving me the same amount, but in tablets of smaller dosages. I started breaking the .25 mg. tablets in half, then began cutting the halves in half with a very sharp pen-knife blade (tricky), every week sneaking the daily dose down by minuscule amounts. The hardest one to get rid of was the one just before going to bed. No panic or anything like that, I just couldn't get to sleep. But after a few days, no problem.

All in all, I was on it for about four years. I've heard that some people never get off of it. I guess if you need it, you need it. Panic attacks can be a real horror. But I never, ever want to be hooked on anything again!

A good, general book with a lot of solid, practical advice: Managing Your Mind: The Mental Fitness Guide by Gillian Butler, Ph.D., and Tony Hope, M.D., Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, 1995. This is not some airy-fairy self-help book, it's rock-solid and down-to-earth. With the Xanax, I found Chapter 27, "Tranquilizers and How to Stop Taking Them" especially helpful.

I am not saying "don't' follow your doctor's advice." What I am saying is — it's your health. It's your mind. Read. Ask questions. Be a pain in the ass. Be informed!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 03:54 PM

It is probably true that all depression has biological and chemical sequelae, but I am positive it is not the case that it all stems from biochemical causes. I've seen depression end, for example, on a dramatic discovery made during past life regression. It would be foolish to therefore assert that all depression is caused by misidentified trauma from the past.

The interactiosn between thebody,m the mind and the Owner are complex and work at multiple levels. You could make the brain-side symptoms of depression go away by cutting off your head. But it would be a pretty poor cure! :>)

What relives depression is finding out the truth about it and addressing that -- and it could be anything from chemical imbalance, to vitamin deficiency to a separate spectrum of spiritual and mental factors. What does NOT help at all is sticking someone with a wrong explanation for their particular situation.

A

Kendall: For what it is worth I have found inhaling or gargling a small amount of Tea Tree oil does wonders for throat problems. Give it a try -- just a tiny bit. It has a strong flavor like pine sap or kerosene but it is a powerful healing aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 11:27 PM

People, you sinply must go see A Beautiful Mind.

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: 53
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 11:42 PM

my suggestion is to take plenty of candy, and listen to good bluegrass music, a banjo always seems to perk me up, but the candy is very sweet too. BOB


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 11:43 PM

"A banjo will get you through times of no money
But money won't get you through times of no banjo."

John Hartford


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:44 AM

Thanks to DOn Firth and others who posted about Xanax. I was on it for anxiety related to the open heart surgery last year, just two at night, though. Got mad and decided I would go off it on my own this past Wed., cold turkey. Wrong decision...I am going back for a last refill and wean off it in smaller doses as you said you did, Don. Will also talk to my doc about it.

Thanks, again,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: sliding into a depression
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:28 PM

RD:

I suffer badly from depression at times (Lupus and Diabetes both cause depression, so it only take a very small outside trigger and down I go).

I think the strongest thing you have going for you is that you can recognise the signs before you might get to the feeling that you don't want to carry on. My signs are picking up my diary and cancelling everything, wanting to hide away from EVERYONE. The best thing to do is to get help AS SOON AS THESE SIGNS BECOME RECOGNISABLE. Go to your doctor and he will put you on a short course of a drug to raise your seritonin (is that the right spelling) levels. The results are amazing.

My biggest danger is that I want to opt out of things and I'm sure that if I didn't get help I would want to do a final opt out. Luckily my doctor understands.

Good luck and good mental health.

Rhiannon


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 20 October 7:05 AM EDT

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