Ned Kelly - True History

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 06:56 AM

I didn't mind 'True History of the Kelly Gang'. As mentioned, it was a pastiche of the story, done in a style that attempted to be tangential and a little Tarantinoesque.

However, some of the exposure of the class structure, corruption in the police, racism against the Irish and the brutality of the time was well covered. I didn't believe the character development which led to Glenrowan, but the portrayal of Ned's childhood influences was quite convincing.

I did enjoy the final speech, where the fabricated version of Ned was used as a springboard for Australia to move into an era of civility. In that sense, he comes off as the victim of his circumstance.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 04:46 AM

I didn't look at the trailer, pfr as I've seen stories here about it (basically, brilliant piece of movie making, shithouse re-writing of history) -
but I did look at the comments -

# an attempt at Australian history mimicking Quentin Tarantino storytelling with just a dash of Guy Ritchie?
# Horrible movie. I don't get why the director didn't just write his own character instead of taking a real person and twisting their story beyond recognition

nick - the romance of the bad boy ...

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:06 PM

A l Lloyd referred to Kelly as a half baked hot head. I'm inclined to agree with him. The truth about highwaymen, outlaws or bushrangers is usually a disillusion.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:08 PM

There's a new Ned Kelly movie coming out sometime soon..

The trailer looks interesting...

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 12:31 PM

& I did! & here they are along with a few other Kelly lyrics from Six Authentic Songs from the Kelly country. The following extract is from a post on this thread by Bob Bolton (02 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM ) - The songs are all collected in the early days of the 'Australian Folk Revival' by pioneer Australian collector John Meredith. The songs are:

The Bold K---ly G--G (Bushwhacker Broadside No. 9)
Farewell to Greta (Bushwhacker Broadside No. 11)
Kelly was their Captain (Bushwhacker Broadside No. 12)
The Kellys, Byrne and Hart(Bushwhacker Broadside No. 13)
Stringybark Creek (Bushwhacker Broadside No. 14) and
Ye Sons of Australia (Bushwhacker Broadside No. 15)

One of the many articles I have in draft on the Bush Music Club blog is about the Broadside ballads, but it needs a few days work

Ned Kelly After A Century of Acrimony, by John Meredith and Bill Scott. Sydney: Lansdowne Press, 1980 contains songs & source documents.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 01:25 AM

Posting here because I know Sandra will probably see it.

I had a song suggested to me by Ewan Lawrie of the Canberra Shanty Club.

'Ye Sons of Australia' was recorded by Danny Spooner and Martyn Wyndham-Read on various LPs in the 60s & 70s and the song appears in a 1968 published book of Bush Songs by Douglas Stewart. No author is credited, which seems strange for a song being circulated only 70-80 years after the death of Ned.

Interestingly, the start of the song focuses on Ned's sister, Kate Kelly.

Sandra has published the lyrics elsewhere here on mudcat.

Here is my recording.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Aug 12 - 05:05 AM

a bit of nit-picking, Amos - I assume you are quoting one of the news stories

Ned did not have any descendants - but his sistes did & even one of their descendants didn't object to a journalist calling him a descendant of Ned sometime back -

most of the first page of a Google search on 'Ned Kelly burial' says his body was handed to his descendants - including sites in Ireland, Sudan, NZ, Britain, Australia ...

sandra (picky pedant)

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: meself
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:12 PM

For the record. Someone claimed 'way back in '02 that 'bloody hell' is a common epithet in Canada - as a generalization, this is untrue as far as I'm concerned.   I've lived all my life in Canada, in several regions, and can't have heard it more than a half dozen times, and in every case, I'm sure, uttered by an ex-pat Brit.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 10:53 AM

The skeleton of Ned Kelly, Australia's most notorious criminal, will finally be returned to his descendants 132 years after he was executed, the government said Thursday, ending the family's long quest to find and properly bury the remains of a man many Australians now consider a folk hero. New York TImes Aug 3 2012

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 02:30 PM

The recent exhibition at the National Museum in Canberra called, 'Not just Ned…the Irish in Australia' was a revelation. In the centre of the hall were the four 'suits of armour' worn by the Kelly brothers. They exhuded a malevolence and darkness that was both chilling and compelling. The 40 kilogram plates showed where they had been hit by bullets of large calibre. The whole exhibit was a stark reminder that these were desperate and determined men. It did not glorify them.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Sep 11 - 11:47 AM

I want to make an appeal for historians and researchers to bring truthful facts to the fore in the subject of folk songs and characters. I think that truth is more interesting than fiction and that to see a folk figure in a broad human context, not just a comic strip myth is revealing and educational. A lot of folklore is fiction but still a historical timeline and event structure can override the mythology that obscures the background of a song.

My contention is that there are few doing this today and my friend Adam Miller is doing this in his performances.

I was happy to see the new revelations about Joe Hill.

Billy the Kid was a little monster. Jesse James was a Confederate rascal.

I am in favor of promoting social heroes that are not just gangsters, criminals or military figures.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 10:53 PM

He's right - it is and unworthy of a great country. Ned Kelly is a myth and legend even though he existed, better he stay that way.

Reality is often stark and uncomfortable - and in this case ghoulish.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 05:09 AM

Sins - a great grand nephew has already commented about the idea to display the skeleton -


Anthony Griffiths, the great grandson of Ned Kelly's sister Grace, says any public exhibition of the bones would be "macabre and disgusting".

"The presentation of a corpse on display is something out of medieval times," he said.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Brian May
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:19 AM

Ooops that Guest was me. Lost my head and didn't log in . . .

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 11 - 04:16 AM

Apparently he's a bit shorter than was expected . . .

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 11:12 AM

I was shocked at the headline in a local paper - Bush Icon's Remains Found.
Wonder how the family feels about that?

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 10:06 AM

groan

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 08:59 AM

Rest in pieces, Ned.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Sep 11 - 05:15 AM

cartoon - 2nd Sep

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 10:09 PM

I see by this New Report, they have identified the actual remains, sans head, of Kelly, from a mass grave on prison grounds.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST,Bruce D
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 06:24 AM

Hi Bob

I learn a few weeks ago from my mother when I was in Sydney last. That I too may have a family connection with the Ned Kelly family, unluckily due to being unable to talk any more than a few word because of Illness (MND) I wasn't able to learn more.

Bruce D
Melbourne

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 01 Sep 11 - 12:27 AM

Relative slams 'medieval' plan for Kelly's bones

extract from article -
One of Ned Kelly's relatives says he is disgusted that the Victorian Government is considering putting the infamous bushranger's skeleton on public display.

Forensic teams have confirmed a headless skeleton found stuffed into an axe box and buried at Melbourne's Pentridge Prison belongs to Kelly, who was hanged for murder in 1880.

The remains were found among among the bones of hundreds of prisoners exhumed from the Old Melbourne Gaol and reinterred in a mass grave at Pentridge in 1929.

The Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine says it is an almost complete skeleton but with most of the skull missing.

A DNA sample taken from Melbourne school teacher Leigh Olver, who is the great grandson of Kelly's sister Ellen, confirmed the identification.

Anthony Griffiths, the great grandson of Ned Kelly's sister Grace, says any public exhibition of the bones would be "macabre and disgusting".

"The presentation of a corpse on display is something out of medieval times," he said.



more pics here -
Gallery of pics related to story, contemporary & modern Ned Kelly - rebel with a cause
Australians have been fascinated by the story of notorious bushranger Ned Kelly for more than a century. The famous outlaw has been memorialised by filmmakers, musicians, painters and writers alike.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 31 Aug 11 - 08:43 PM

Bones of Australia's Jesse James Are Identified, but His Skull Remains a Fugitive (NY Times, 31 August 2011)

Speaking of Mick Jagger, the article opens: "Even with the best scientific techniques, you can't always get what you want. But if you try, as the Rolling Stones put it, sometimes you get what you need. "
...

[Trying to find a DNA source to test the skull that has been purported to be Kelly's,] "They found Leigh Olver, an art teacher who was descended from Ned Kelly's mother, down a direct line of women. He donated blood for analysis, and they compared his mitochondrial DNA to that of the skull.

"On Wednesday, the forensic institute announced the disappointing results of that analysis. It appears that after all this time, after being abducted more than once, placed on display for the world to see, hidden for decades, cherished, handled, sought after and tested, the skull is not Ned Kelly's. "Mr. Olver's DNA and the DNA from the skull do not match," said Fiona Leahy, a historian and legal adviser at the institute.

"There was one rather powerful note of consolation. The investigators found a match between the Olver DNA and one set of bones dug up at Pentridge, including a palm-size fragment of skull. So while most of Kelly's skull is still missing, the rest of him appears to have been found."
...

"What of Kelly's skeleton? Should it be returned to the extended family? Or should there be a public grave? Many Australians regard Kelly as a national hero. Countless books and movies tell the story of his life. But others see him as a villain.

"You can't just bury the man," Mr. Olver said. "Someone is going to dig him up again in half an hour."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST,mollylouise
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:08 AM

My grandparents were Irish - and I remember them using "adjectival" in their speech, very much the same way Ned Kelly does. They used it when reporting what someone else said, they wouldn't use "bloody" in front of me.

Of course in Ireland people still say "effing" as a replacement for the stronger "f**king" which is considered very coarse, but "effing' is commonplace and not really though of as bad language at all.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 02:09 PM

Yeah, I thought the accents were pretty funny, but I'd give him and A for effort and looking as though he had a blast!

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 01:10 PM

Yeah, but Mick's Irish accent is pretty laughable! The film made a little splash at the time, then sank like a stone.

Subject: RE: Ned Kelly - True History
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Jul 03 - 12:03 PM

Well, a movie I watched on tv reminded me of this thread. I couldn't believe it! It was 1970, simply called Ned Kelly and starred MICK JAGGER as Ned! It was really kind of weird to watch him in such a role, but I enjoyed his rendition of "Wild Colonial Boy." There was also a beautiful lully, I am sure you all know it, about a child asking why daddy does his work at night, i.e. ranching, etc.

I noticed Waylon Jennings sang the theme song which was written by Shel Silverstein. Quite a mix of talents altogether; interesting to say the least! They are running it on the True Westerns channel on cable if anyone is interested.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 05:24 PM

G'day Dave Brannigan,

I don't think we have met, although I've seen your name about the place. At the National, I'll be the schizophrenic bloke trying to juggle a concertina, a button accordion (plus a few whistles, mouthorgans, bones ... )and a large camera bag (and avoid being designated "Official Photographer"!

Have a look at Peter Lawrie's pic of me, at the start of the (not recently updated) page: Bob Bolton Pix. The instrumental impedimenta is hiding behind my back, but you can always pick me by my overloaded condition.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:26 PM

Charley, You folks from Maine and the other "New England" states certainly put the wind up the British Government when crewing the US ships in the war of 1812.***BG***
BTW I think it was a dirty trick to play letting the French prisoners of war free at once on the end of the 1st war with Napoleon but keeping the Americans locked up when the war with the US ended.
dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:59 PM

Good work!

We just never seemed to grow our own rebel/bandits here in Maine. We slaughted our share of Native Americans in the 1700's, hanged an alleged pirate in Portland, tried several times to invade Canada, and I think the FBI ambushed some vacationing Chicago gangsters in Bangor back in the 1930's. We continue to do a bit of smuggling to this day. I wonder what history's been buried?

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST,DaveBrannigan
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:14 PM

An interesting thread folks. Good to see our Ned STILL making headlines ! I personally enjoyed Carey's book on Jack Maggs ( the mysterious benefactor in Dicken's Great Expectations ), but not so much his offering on Kelly. I've heard him interviewed on the subject, listened to the bookreading on the ABC (radio) and even tried to read it!! The "Jerilderie letter" whose style he borrowed is just so powerfully expressive, Ned and Joe Byrne together, in full flight, so real! I relly wanted to enjoy the book, but I just got angry at the subterfuge of it all. When I read the phrase, "..there were no income generated.." (on the farm) I spat the dummy!! Maybe it's the Noo Yawk air! Another expat Aussie, Robert Hughes, art critic etc., also resident in that burg has patronised us from the great heights with his views beyond the fatal shore (the fatal flaw?) For a REAL history, one can't go past Ian Jones' "A Short Life", the result of over 30 years of patient work, or if you're really keen you could try J.J.Kenneally's "Complete Inner History of the Kelly Gang and their pursuers",first published 1929, containing details of the Royal Commission into the whole affair of the Kellys, ESPECIALLY the conduct of the police; his principal informant was Tom Lloyd (the providore), the man closest to the Kellys, and reviewed by Jim Kelly, the surviving brother.I have my well-thumbed copy in front of me right now. I'm not too familiar with the protocols of this Mudcat thing, ( or computers, being only a semi-reformed Luddite!) but I guess you say hello to who ya know, and swap stuff ( and I'm learning to type with both fingers now) Extra g'day to Bob B. We must have passed each other 100 times at festivals, but I can't recall meeting you!! Maybe we can remedy that this Easter in Canberra? Airto and Hrothgar, you have to make up your own minds as to whether Ned was or wasn't, a good man, but he has become in little over 100 years, an heroic legend, one step below mythic hero, exhibiting an almost supra-mortal doom and destruction; wounded more than 20 times, seriously in the hand and foot, he singlehandedly eluded the besiegers at Glenrowan to warn Lloyd and other supporters that their plan to CAPTURE the senior police and ransom them for his mother's freedom had gone wrong, THEN WENT BACK TO JOIN HIS MATES in their last stsnd. No wonder that to Aussies ever since, Diggers on the battlefield, or anywhere, "as game as Ned Kelly" was the highest praise a man could give or get. Whew!!! I've got a bit carried away here! Sorry for the long wind,but I can't help caring about what I care about all the best toyezall Davo

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Airto
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:59 AM

It's pure coincidence, but the film I mentioned above, Michael Collins, was directed by Neil Jordan. It turns out that he has bought the rights to the Carey book.

I must say I like 'adjectival', it sounds good in an Australian accent.

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:34 AM

G'day Hrothgar, "... doesn'nt make poor old Ned a goodie ..."

If you do me the courtesy of reading what I posted, you will see that I suggest that, by the time of the Glenrowan Seige, he has dangerously mad ... a term I am not using lightly. But I might also suggest that many people ... who might otherwise be seen as, say, insane terrorists, come to be venerated as national heroes if their mad endeavours succeed.

I am arguing that your neat little assessment can be dangerously trite - especially when we see that it was not even accepted by the British Colonial authorities investigating the "Kelly Outbreak" in the years following Ned's execution.

History is written by the winners ... nationally, socially, ethnically or religiously. Kelly never belonged to the right one of any of these classifications.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Hrothgar
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:16 AM

Bob,

Just because there were other crominals around doesn'nt make poor old Ned a goodie.

He was brave, and spectacular, and loyal to his mates, and all the rest of it, but a lot of other people stayed on the fairly straight and narrow despite having similar backgrounds.

Maybe he just wasn't very bright, and that's why he was caught - but the Jerilderie Letter is not the production of a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 09:38 PM

G'day Again Airto,

I just got around to starting Peter Carey's True History of the Kelly Gang. I only read a few pages on the (express) bus to work this morning, but I did come to the paragraph from which you quoted. The context is that Ned is remembering his mother push the crumbled ruins of a cake she had baked for her 15 year old brother Jimmy under the door of the Beveridge Police Camp lock-up. Ned remembers her ranting against the police and their treatment of the Quinns.

"She cried I would kill the b------s if I were a man God help me. She used many rough expressions I will not write them here. It were eff this and ess that and she would blow their adjectival brains out."

Given that the text purports to be Ned's reminiscences, written for his (fictional) daughter, we have to allow him a bit of euphemism. He won't use that sort of language to his daughter - but he does want to tell her how the ongoing persecution of the Quinns led to the later events of the Kelly Gang. That said, I still think that the language used by Carey is unlikely (and, probably, a bit anachronistic). If Ned wanted to indicate such words, without actually using them, he would be more likely to use the written conventions "f…" and "b….." (or "f--k" and "b----y") rather that the vocalisations in Carey's text. However, it is a novel - not a learned historical treatise.

BTW: I seem to have slipped in an extra generation above when mentioning our (tenuous and uncharted) link to the Kellys, through great-great-grandmother Jane Anne Quinn. There are very few records to trace this back … and dear old g-g-grannie Jane seems to have made every effort not to fill in some of those records!

Hrothgar: Yes, Kelly was involved in charges about use of other people's horses ... in circumstances that depend a lot on interpretation and record. Most of our old grazing families were involved in far greater scale manœuvres with stock that may not have belonged to them ... on country they simply took from the original owners ... but that's the way grazing empires are built.

The Kelly Gang shot police in a confrontation at Stringybark Creek ... and that was the turning point in the police drive to pursue them. Our great grazing families often led vigilante groups, including police, to slaughter whole tribes of Aborigines in revenge for any attempt to defend their land ... but that's the way countries are cleared and settled.

The Kellys robbed banks ... and finally used that to set up a confronation at Glenrowan, where they knew they would be opposed by an army of police. The "(in)famous" armour was a device for a quite different confronatation in which they intended to derail the police train and slaughter the police ... apparently as a signal for the Irish to rise against 'English Rule'. That's the way revolutions sometimes start ... or the way madmen die ... it all depends on who wins and gets to write the history.

I think taht any hope of an Irish Uprising was a pipe dream ... so I would have to say Ned was already mad ... but police invesigations after the Kelly era found lots to fuel this sort of mad endeavour. The historians have enough to argue about in the real history - withour Carey's unreal one!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 04:10 AM

Roger in Sheffield, thanks for the link to his letter! Fascinating!

Bob, sorry. I thought maybe the older dictionary might shed some light. I knew it was used as a substitute for an expletive, in Carey's book, but was hoping to find something else. Ah, well, thanks for the clarification.

Dicho, thanks for the links.

BTW, my dad tells a great story about Billy the Kid. Seems my great-granddad was friends with an old gunfighter who rode with the Kid. The old gunfighter had quite a hand in helping to raise my grandfather, who was a crack shot, as is my dad.

Anyway, the story goes, one time the Kid, the old gunfighter, and others were camped out. It was breakfast time. The Kid was squatted down, eating out of a mess kit plate with fork and coffee beside him on the ground. Someone noted that one of their numbers had not gotten up, yet. At that point, someone said, "Kid!" Billy looked over and saw a rattlesnake coiled on the chest of the reclining gang member, explaining his reluctance to get up. The Kid very carefully put his plate on his knee, smoothly drew out his gun and blew the snake's head off, then picked up his plate and continued eating his breakfast.

My dad cannot remember the name of the old gunfighter, but he does remember walking down the street one time with his dad, when a man in the shadows, riding his horse, stopped and asked my granddad, "Is that you, Frank?" It was the old gunfighter who'd helped raise him. He got down and the three of them went over to my other greatgrandfather's livery stable, sat down and visited for hours. My dad was quite little and fell asleep, so, sadly, doesn't recall much more than the story. It's one of the ones going in the book, so please forgive me when I put a copyright symbol after this. And, sorry for the thread creep!

© Kat LaFrance 2002

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 03:35 AM

Just remember that he was a stock thief, bank robber, and murderer. That is true history!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:01 PM

G'day,

katlaughing: The usual sense of adjectival is, of course in the standard Oxford I was using ... but not the sense of substituting it for an epiphet ... in this case, "bloody". I have heard (or, more correctly, read)this usage ... but in much more modern texts. This use is analogous to the infamous (and ubiquitous!) expletive deleted of the Nixon tape transcripts.

Dicho: As I noted above, the belief that 'bloody' is, in some way, "The Great Australian Adjective" is only noted, in print sources, from 1894. The Oxford Concise gives, under "bloody", the general use as an intensive ... up to c. 1750 - and notes that it is now "low English". Of course, to most of our first settlers ... convict, soldier or free settler ... it would have been pretty common speech in 1788 ... and we know just how tightly colonial, or ex-colonial, populations will cling to accents and usages of the time of their settlement. This is just an example of that sort of retention. (Bloody Oath!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:37 PM

There is much in the Forum about Ned Kelly. Those who are interested should go to:
Here
Here
Here
There are others.

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:29 PM

"You'll find me a bloody rascal," Dana, 1840.
"... He will promise to be bloody drunk." Etheridge, 1676.
Etc., etc. A common adjective since the 17thC. and therefore probably older. Here in Canada, "Bloody Hell!" is a common expletive.
Like Billy the Kid, I would guess Ned Kelly inspires more fiction than truth. Billy, in part, was a victim of a fight between thieving entrepreneurs. He made the mistake of being associated with the one who lost out. It took a lawyer to write a book that made sense out of the Lincoln County War. Nothing to do with Ned Kelly, but another example of how history gets twisted.

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM

click/scroll down

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 10:51 AM

In my grandfather's 4 volume dictionary set, The Modern World Dictionary of the English Language 1906 edition, it says the following for "adjectival" a word I'd never encountered until Carey's book:

Pertaining to an adjective; used as an adjective. "....and so all adjectival offspring...." -Key: Philological Essays, p. 257

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks all!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 15 Jan 02 - 08:35 AM

G'day again,

I had a look at the Australian National Dictionary for this particular use of "adjectival" ... and it doesn't get a mention. There is an entry (under "Bloody") for "The great Australian adjective" ... ie "Bloody", taking it as a particularly (enthusiastic) Australian usage. This is only cited from 1894 ... not then 1870s, which is Kelly's period.

I think Carey is trying to use later "equivalents" o convey a sense of style ... in a much later idiom ... maybe ... ?!?

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST,chrisj
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:24 PM

Kelly never wrote his life story but as Bob Bolton said he wrote or perhaps dictated to Byrne his 'Jerilderie Letter' which among other things advocated a 'Republic of Northern Victoria'. The letter 'disappeared' and its existance was even denied by officialdom for many years after Ned was hanged in 1880, but it surfaced again and its style was copied by Peter Carey to supply the 'voice' of Kelly in the novel. Carey pushes all the right buttons in the novel such as cross-dressing, hideout in a brothel, 'tart with heart of gold', implied homosexuality, etc, it was bound to sell!

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 05:49 PM

G'day Airto,

I have to sit down and read the copy my younger brother gave me for Christmas, but I gather the book is loosely based on the literary style of Ned's Glenrowan Letter, which is a diatribe against what he saw as English persecution of poor Irish settlers ... and a suggestion that we had a police force run by (allegedly ex-) criminals. Seems to be a well held tradition ... I seem to remember the suggestion that Ned dictated the letter to Joe Byrne, the only really literate member of the Kelly Gang (and putative author of the genuine Kelly ballads).

The use of adjectival as euphemism for 'bloody' (mostly), or other swear words, strikes me as a late Victorian / Edwardian affectation ... and not particularly Australian. I will check for any note on Australian usage in The Australian National Dictionary (a full Oxford English Dictionary historical treatment of local word usage) when I get home.

BTW: We Boltons seem to be distantly related to Ned ... through my great-great-great grandmother Jane Anne Quinn - apparently Ellen's sister ... but the records are murky (she certainly arrives in Australia in the same year as Ellen - 1841), and it only comes up in an intriguing sidelight to the family history.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: Airto
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 01:54 PM

Thanks for that link, Wildlone. An excellent website.

So Kelly did write an account of his life, on which Carey clearly based the prose style of the novel. But there was no Mary Hearn, and no child.

It's remarkable that Ned's mother, Ellen Kelly, survived into her nineties given the tough life she had. She outlived seven of her twelve children, and some of her grandchildren as well.

The reactions to the book in Australia seem to have been similar to those in Ireland about the Michael Collins film. Professional historians and keepers of the flame disliked the playing fast and loose with the facts while most others saw it as capturing the essence of the character and the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: John Gray
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:20 AM

Airto,
This is a novel by one of Australia's most gifted and famous authors. There is a degree of critism here in the literary world regarding his choice of the title, The True History, when in fact its a novel. The worry is that future readers will think it's a biography.
I don't think Kelly ever tried to get the story of his life published but he did try to have certain events put to print.
The word "adjectival" does not crack a feature in the Penguin book of Australian Slang and I've never heard it used in the manner that Carey does. That's not to say it didn't have some currency over a hundred years ago but I would be surprised if so.
As far as I'm aware Ned's child is a figment of the novelist's mind.

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: wildlone
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:14 AM

Searching using google.com I found Click here

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 10:13 AM

Yeah, it was a fascinating and good read. I could have sworn we discussed it in some past thread, but a search didn't turn up anything but stuff about the song.

I did wonder how much of it was true, too.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Ned Kelly - True History
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 02 - 07:45 AM

It was dreamed up by the Author, but what a great book. Digger.