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Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus

Mary in Kentucky 16 Jan 02 - 07:46 PM
masato sakurai 16 Jan 02 - 08:16 PM
Mary in Kentucky 16 Jan 02 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 16 Jan 02 - 10:35 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 16 Jan 02 - 10:38 PM
Mary in Kentucky 16 Jan 02 - 10:40 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Jan 02 - 11:44 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 16 Jan 02 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,Ernest 17 Jan 02 - 05:46 AM
Mary in Kentucky 17 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM
Wolfgang 17 Jan 02 - 08:55 AM
Wolfgang 17 Jan 02 - 09:02 AM
Wilfried Schaum 18 Jan 02 - 06:19 AM
Wilfried Schaum 18 Jan 02 - 07:27 AM
Mary in Kentucky 18 Jan 02 - 08:08 AM
masato sakurai 18 Jan 02 - 08:43 AM
Mary in Kentucky 18 Jan 02 - 08:55 AM
masato sakurai 18 Jan 02 - 12:16 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 18 Jan 02 - 12:38 PM
Mary in Kentucky 20 Jan 02 - 11:11 PM
Mary in Kentucky 21 Jan 02 - 08:06 AM
Wilfried Schaum 21 Jan 02 - 08:32 AM
bernil 22 Jan 02 - 04:36 PM
Mary in Kentucky 22 Jan 02 - 04:50 PM
GUEST,Sigewif 23 Jan 02 - 03:58 AM
bernil 23 Jan 02 - 06:23 AM
Richard Bridge 16 May 10 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Dan Meyer 06 Jun 10 - 04:51 PM
open mike 13 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM
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Subject: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 07:46 PM

Help, Wolfgang! ;-)

I'm interested in the Christmas song, When Christmas Morn is Dawning. Read the words and listen to the tune at the Cyber Hymnal here. My music book says it is a traditional Swedish song (words in Swedish) to the tune of a German folk song. The Cyber Hymnal is not sure of its origins. It is also in Brahms' Academic Festival Overture. The Volkslieder site here has this hymn to the tune of Wir hatten gebauet. When I look up the German song at this site (even though I haven't read German in many years) I find Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus here with that same gorgeous melody.

My questions are: 1) Can you translate these verses for me? 2) is this a well known German folksong 3) where can I find the names of all the German folk songs in Brahms' and Beethoven's works?

I can find lots of sites of German folk songs, but since I only know the melodies and not the names, it's a bit of a reverse search for me. I would be interested in a site that has already listed the themes in for instance Brahms' Academic Festival Overture, or his 4th Symphony, and tell me the name of the folk song used.



Zur Auflösung der Jenaer Burschenschaft
   Daniel August von Binzer
1. Wir hatten gebauet
Ein stattliches Haus
|: Und drin auf Gott vertrauet,
   Trotz Wetter, Sturm und Graus. :|

2. Wir lebten, so traulich,
So innig, so frei,
|: Den Schlechten ward es graulich,
   Wir lebten gar zu treu! :|

3. Sie lugten, sie suchten
Nach Trug und Verrat,
|: Verleumdeten, verfluchten,
   Die junge grüne Saat! :|

4. Was Gott in uns legte,
Die Welt hat's veracht't,
|: Die Einigkeit erregte
   Bei Guten selbst Verdacht! :|

5. Man schalt es Verbrechen,
Man täuschte sich sehr;
|: Die Form kann man zerbrechen,
   Die Liebe nimmermehr. :|

6. Die Form ist zerbrochen,
Von außen herein,
|: Doch, was man drin gerochen,
   War eitel Trug und Schein. :|

7. Das Band ist zerschnitten,
War Schwarz, Rot und Gold,
|: Und Gott hat es gelitten,
   Wer weiß was er gewollt! :|

8. Das Haus mag zerfallen -
Was hat's dann für Not?
|: Der Geist lebt in uns allen,
   Und unsre Burg ist Gott! :|


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 08:16 PM

I don't know if Brahms' folk songs are included or not, but Brahms Lieder scores are HERE. All the Beethoven folksong arrangements (mostly British & Irish) are on Ludwig van Beethoven: Volkslied-Bearbeitungen [Complete Beethoven Edition], vol. 17 [7 CDs!](Deutsche Grammophon 453 786-2), with German/English words.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 08:22 PM

Thanks Masato. I'm not very familiar with Brahms' and Beethoven's songs, just the orchestral works and violin concertos. I've always heard that many of the themes are from folk songs, but I've never heard which folk songs. I wonder if these are very familiar to Germans and Austrians, or if they are more obscure.

I'll listen to some of the songs too and see if any are familiar. I don't know if they copied traditional tunes or composed original tunes.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:35 PM

In the midi version, the beginning two measures are "Three Blind Mice" the ending refrain is the hymn "Near to the Heart of God"


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:38 PM

Ingeb.org's first selection was the souce for my "analysis" the others use a different melody.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 10:40 PM

You're right!

Next...see the Lippai thread.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:44 PM

The German words you have are accurate. They match those on the Stuttgart Univ. site except in verse 3, Sie rather than Man: Man lugte, man suchte, Nach trug und verrat, Verleumdete, verfluchte, etc.
My translation would be very rough, since my experience is with scientific German, quite a different kettle of fish. Wolfang may point you toward a properly rhymed translation. The title means The Dissolution of the Students Association. Maybe Wolfgang can give you the story.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:52 PM

Words by von Binzer, 1819, Jena Students Assn.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: GUEST,Ernest
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:46 AM

Hello everyone,

here is a quick rough-and-ready-non-singable)translation. Pardon me for not always finding the appropriate words (and various other mistakes):

1. We had buildt a stately house / and trusted in god inside / despite weather, storm and horror

2. We lived so trustful, so cordial, so free / the bad ones desoised it / we `ve been much to true

3. They looked and searched /for cheating and betrayal / rided and cursed /the young green seed

4. What god laid in us /the world did despise / the unity was distrusted / even by the good ones

5. They called it crime / but they were wrong / the form may be broken / the love nevermore

6. The form has been broken / from the outside / but what they smelled from within (better: what they saw in it) / was only a false image

7. The bond has been cut / it was black, red and gold / god dad let it happen /who kows his ways?

8. The house may fall apart /what kind of starving will be / the spirit lives in all of us / our castle is god

As said above the song refers to the closing of the original students association in Jena (Urburschenschaft) by the autorities. The students associations (Burschenschaften) were part of the democratic national movement in Germany (that is a number of small states) in the early 19th century. As long as German authorities were not in power due to the french occupation under Napoleon, they were welcomed as part of the resistance forces (The song "Luetzows wilde verwegene Jagd" refers to a militia, whos members were made up mostly of students). During the period of restauration of the old powers after Napoleons defeat, the governments tried to suppress the ideas of free speech, free press, parliaments etc. by outlawing democratic organisations, so they became secret organisations for a while. Later they took part in the unsuccessful revolution in 1848. In the aftermath many were forced to emigrate to the U.S., the most famous among them Carl Schurz. The colours of the german tricolour black, red and gold (as mentioned in the 7th stanza) were introduced some time after the closing of the Urburschenschaft. Their Flag - as displayed on the Wartburg Castle in Eisenach - has been black and red with a golden branch of oak on it. You could write volumes and volumes about it, but I am not a professinal historian. I will try to look for some english literature if nobody eles comes up with it first.

Yours

Ernest


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:23 AM

Thanks Ernest. My experience is in technical German also, so I appreciate several translations and some poetic ones to get the real meaning of a song. But more importantly for me, I like the tune, and had always known it from Brahms as a tune without words.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 08:55 AM

is this a well known German folksong?

No and Yes. No, for the song 'Wir hatten gebauet...' is not very well known anymore. Yes, for the tune couldn't be more popular. It is the tune also used for Ich hab mich ergeben (Wir hatten gebauet came first, by the way). This ranks among the first ten German folksongs by any count. After WWII this was the top candidate for a new National Anthem (favoured by then president Heuss) until they settled for the old anthem's third verse as a compromise.

This was the closing song the Parlamentarische Rat (parliamentary assembly) sang on May 23, 1949, after they had voted for the New German postwar constitution (Grundgesetz). (click for German language protocol of that moment and scroll to bottom) It couldn't be more popular.

I don't know of any site that has the information in the format you'd wish for.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 09:02 AM

Brahms made his ouverture explicitely to the tune of 'Ich hab mich ergeben'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 06:19 AM

The tune to Wir hatten gebauet is given as folk tune (my grandfathers student song book, 1896) or traditional song (Deutsche Lieder, recent).
Brahms's Academic Celebration Ouverture uses three main themes:
1. Ich hab mich ergeben (tune of Wir hatten gebauet) for the fatherland.
2. Fuxenritt (Fox ride) for the joys and fun of youth unbound. Fux (from Latin *fac- = to do) sometimes spelled Fuchs (the animal) is the same as the English fag (oxon. et cant.), a freshman, who has to render certain services to the older students. The ride is done by the fags riding on chairs, in a single row, to this song originating from Jena in the 18th century. During the ride the older students tried to light the hair of the fags and to extinguish the burning with beer. This abuse is abandoned today. The last ride I saw happend in 1963, where I participated as a young fag (without the burning). 3. Gaudeamus igitur for the university (Brahms dedicated this ouverture to Vienna University). It is THE academic hymn, originating from medieval times, and was brought in it's form used now by the Jena student Kindleben in his songbook (18th century). Every fraternity man nows it by heart.

Black-red gold: the Lützow Jägers were not a militia, but a volunteer corps (mostly students). They didn't fight in the line, but as light troops detached from the lines (partisans). Their uniform was black, with golden buttons, an red collars. Hence the colours of the Urburschenschaft flag.
The freedom fighters of 1813 postulated participation in the political life, since they offered their life and blood for the state(s). In 1819 the whole movement was forbidden because of a political murder done by the Giessen student Karl Ludwig Sand, a welcome occasion for the conservative forces in Germany.

Note: The Lützow Jägers are remarkable for going out to war with two poets in its ranks (Körner, KIA, and v. Eichendorff). The only other case I know of are the Royal Welch Fusiliers, 2nd Btl, in 1916 (Sassoon and Graves).

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 07:27 AM

Excuse me for having forgotten to put the necessary stress on this statement:
The themes of Brahms's ouverture are not folk songs, but student songs, more or less popular with the rest of the population, but originating in the seclusion of university life.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 08:08 AM

Thanks Wilfried. Now I need to look up which tune is Fuxenritt. I love all of them.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: masato sakurai
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 08:43 AM

"Fuxenritt", I think, is Was kommt dort von der Höh' (music is HERE). The tune is similar to THE FARMER IN THE DELL.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 08:55 AM

Ha! It sounds a lot different than Brahms!


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: masato sakurai
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:16 PM

The three songs ("Ich hab' mich ergeben", "Was kommt dort von der Höh'" and "Gaudeamus igitur") are HERE, with MIDIs, which are standard playing. Much seems to be written in German on "Gaudeamus igitur" HERE (Click on "Intonas"). I can't read German, but I have the author[Raimund Lang]'s book on German student songs translated into Japanese.
~Masato


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 12:38 PM

The ingeb.org site has the the music, as pointed out by Masato. The tune is often sung by a "fox" with choruses sung by "alles."


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Subject: Lyr Add: NAR JULDAGSMORGON GLIMMAR (Swedish)
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 11:11 PM

NAR JULDAGSMORGON GLIMMAR
(WHEN CHRISTMAS MORN IS DAWNING)

words:Traditional Swedish
tune: German, Wir hatten gebaut

När juldagsmorgon glimmar,
Jag vill till stallet ga,
Der Gudinattens timmar
Re'n hvilar uppa stra.
Der Gudinattens timmar
Re'n hvilar uppa stra.

Hur god du var, som ville
Till jorden komma ner!
Nu ej i synd jag spille
Min bardoms dagar mer!
Nu ej i synd jag spille
Min bardoms dagar mer!

Dig, Jesus, vi behöfva,
Du käre barnavän!
Jag vill ef mer befröfva
Med synder dig igen!
Jag vill ef mer befröfva
Med synder dig igen!
     When Christmas morn is dawning,
In humble faith I'd go
To Bethlehem, and see Him
That lies upon the straw.
To Bethlehem, and see Him
That lies upon the straw.

How good of You, my Savior,
To come from Heav'n above!
O take away my sinning,
Protect me with Thy love.
O take away my sinning,
Protect me with Thy love.

Blest Jesus, how I need Thee,
The children's dearest friend!
O may I never grieve Thee
With pain of sin again.
O may I never grieve Thee
With pain of sin again.

@Christmas

Source: The International Book of Carols, 1963.
MT

****************************************************

see a temporary midi here. Single line midi sent to Joe.


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Subject: RE: When Christmas Morn is Dawning
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 08:06 AM

I changed the thread title in this post so searchers can find this one. I notify Brigit to proofread the Swedish.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 08:32 AM

Yes, the "Fuxenritt" starts with "Was kommt dort von der Höh'?" It is mainly an interchange of questions and answers, latter sung by the fags or fuxes.
Interesting is the reference to the "Farmer in the dell". The tune is exactly a shortened "Fuxenritt". An incoherency in the DT: first line is marked "(3x), but only played two times.
A similar song you find in Germany: "Ei Bauer, was kost't dein Heu?" (o farmer, what is the price of your hay?). This song gives a list what the farmer will buy for the crown = coin he gets for his hay. The text structure is exactly the same as of the Fuxenritt; the tune a little bit altered.
Gaudeamus: there is an older tune, published 1736 in Leipzig, with the German translation of the Gaudeamus by J. C. Günther, in: "Singende Muse an der Pleiße" = The Singing Muse at the Pleiße River.

Wilfried


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Subject: Lyr Add: NÄR JULDAGSMORGON GLIMMAR (Swedish)
From: bernil
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:36 PM

Mary asked me to proofread her spelling of the Swedish text. It's one of our most loved christmas hymns and it's number 121 in our new hymn book. It sais: "Words: Abel Burckhardt ? (1805-1882)" (so they were not sure) It was translated to Swedish 1851, and is revised after that. The version Mary has posted here contains some old spelling so it's an old version.

In Mary's first link I found the same info and a little more:

"Words: Possibly Abel Burckhardt. Translated to Swedish, 1851; translated from Swedish to English by Claude W Foss (1855-1935). Music: "Juldagsmorgon," German folk tune, 1823. If you have any information on Abel Burckhardt, or know this hymn's original language, would you send us an e.mail? Thanks!"

Burckhardt - he must be deutch? So the text was not at all Swedish from the beginning? And where is the deutch original text? It's too much for me to read in this thread and I don't understand everything.

I guess there aren't so many (nobody!) who understand the Swedish text but here it is again, with some corrections. The English text is quite a good translation so I don't have to say more about it.

*****************************************

NÄR JULDAGSMORGON GLIMMAR

När juldagsmorgon glimmar,
Jag vill till stallet gå,
Där Gud i nattens timmar
Re'n hvilar uppå strå.
Där Gud i nattens timmar
Re'n hvilar uppå strå.

Hur god du var, som ville
Till jorden komma ner!
Nu ej i synd jag spille
Min barndoms dagar mer!
Nu ej i synd jag spille
Min barndoms dagar mer!

Dig, Jesus, vi behöfva,
Du käre barnavän!
Jag vill ej mer beröfva
Med synder dig igen!
Jag vill ej mer beröfva
Med synder dig igen!

*****************************************

Berit in Sweden


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:50 PM

Thanks Berit! I'm still looking at that other Swedish Carol you told me about. I also like to hear the special memories people have associated with these songs. I know I have a lifetime of memories with nearly every Christmas Carol.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: GUEST,Sigewif
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 03:58 AM

Hi. I apprecaited the lyrics in Swedish becuase they are similar to Norwegian. As soon as I read them I recognized the song. I am sure it is also in Norwegian. The translation at Cyberhymnal differs from the one in this thread. Perhaps someone revised it at some point, seeing as the first line is the same. I think the one in this thread is better than the one at Cyberhymnal except I miss the Manger in the one here. The Swedish version is endearing in a way an original work would be. Excellent lyrically (rhyme etc) But also, it is more a child's carol in Swedish. That is lost until the last verse in the translation to English (completely lost in the Cyber hymnal version). In the Swedish, verse 2 is a declaration of a child. "Nu ej i synd jag spille Min barndoms dagar mer!" "The days I have in childhood no more I'll use for sin." i do not understand German. Is it the same? One thing more, is "Juldagsmorgon" (title of the melody as per Cyberhymnal) German? Sounds Scandinavian to me.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: bernil
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 06:23 AM

Hi all, especially GUEST,Sigewif!

Nice to see another Scandinavian here! (There are probably more here but they may be shy?) As for me I'm not a musician (at least not in public...) but very interested in music.

Juldagsmorgon is Swedish, it means "Christmas Day's morn(ing)". But it was strange to use that word, when writing about a German melody!?... Something is wrong there! The Swedish title means exactly (even if I'm not sure how to say it in English) "When Christmas Day's morn(ing) is gleamin", very beautiful.

The version in my new hymn book is different from the one here. There it's not a child's hymn at all but I don't know when it was revised and by whom. On Internet I think I've seen more versions.

There doesn't seem to be a German version of the Christmas text, as nobody has mentioned it. ? The German text here is another song which has nothing to do with Christmas.

Berit


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 May 10 - 01:06 PM

I'd like to express my appreciation, although the subject matter is not the core of my interest, of such an informed and informative thread.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: GUEST,Dan Meyer
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:51 PM

The tune to this song is now the national anthem for the Federated States of Micronesia.


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Subject: RE: Wir hatten gebauet ein stattliches Haus
From: open mike
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 04:41 PM

on this day of Santa Lucia..i wish you light and warmth and health and happiness during this time of winter. A great time to revisit this song

NAR JULDAGSMORGON GLIMMAR (Swedish)


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