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Bat Mitzvah murders

GUEST,Susan L. 18 Jan 02 - 01:32 PM
Wincing Devil 18 Jan 02 - 01:42 PM
SharonA 18 Jan 02 - 01:44 PM
Mrrzy 18 Jan 02 - 01:44 PM
Mrrzy 18 Jan 02 - 01:49 PM
M.Ted 18 Jan 02 - 02:49 PM
artbrooks 18 Jan 02 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Susan L. 18 Jan 02 - 06:25 PM
Tom French 18 Jan 02 - 07:04 PM
Greg F. 18 Jan 02 - 09:11 PM
M.Ted 18 Jan 02 - 10:02 PM
GUEST,peacenik 18 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM
Blackcatter 18 Jan 02 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 19 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM
Troll 19 Jan 02 - 12:51 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Jan 02 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Susan L. 19 Jan 02 - 11:49 AM
M.Ted 19 Jan 02 - 01:42 PM
marty D 19 Jan 02 - 03:12 PM
GUEST 19 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM
Art Thieme 20 Jan 02 - 11:51 PM
Art Thieme 20 Jan 02 - 11:53 PM
Blackcatter 21 Jan 02 - 12:20 AM
Blackcatter 21 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM
Art Thieme 21 Jan 02 - 11:09 AM
M.Ted 21 Jan 02 - 02:08 PM
Blackcatter 21 Jan 02 - 11:12 PM
jbailes 22 Jan 02 - 11:46 AM
Charlie Baum 22 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Jack The lad 22 Jan 02 - 04:51 PM
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Subject: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST,Susan L.
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:32 PM

A Palestinian terrorist burst into a Bat Mitzvah celebration yesterday and murdered five people, including the grandfather of the Bat Mitzvah girl.

Credit for the attack was immediately claimed by the Al Aqsa Brigade, a branch of Arafat's own Fatah organization.

This is not Hamas or Islamic Jihad, this is Arafat's own group.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:42 PM

And this relates to Music... how?


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: SharonA
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:44 PM

Link to ABC News article from the Associated Press: article


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:44 PM

Lamentably! Sorry, just couldn't resist.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 01:49 PM

Rats, cross posted; it would have read better if the reading went And this related to music... How? A: Lamentably!


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 02:49 PM

Payback for all the assassinations, no doubt--

World without end.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 05:58 PM

Retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation, followed by retaliation...world without end...might as well be Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST,Susan L.
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 06:25 PM

Correction to my first message. The Palestinian terrorist murdered six people, not five, at the Bat Mitzvah.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Tom French
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 07:04 PM

Hi Guest Susan l.

Just picked up you note in a momemt of very deep unrest in my own life, which was not related to murder or religion. I am a Congregationalist, a Protestant Christian sect that is more of a historical run-off of the Boston Puritans than anything else. Recently I just quit playing organ for my wife's Episcopal Church, a really fine good group of people, because I felt I needed to get back to my origins. I went to my old childhood and early manhood church to find things a little more polarized than what I left. People are still out of touch with truth.

This felt tough to me because I really hoped to come back to something familiar, warm, a part of love. It isn't there in the forefront of the group, but perhaps it exists in the hearts of the individuals. I found many old and dear friends who were still there, as true and good as they have always been. I had a feeling that newer people probably had those same warm qualities, for I talked deeply with a person who I only knew as someone who went walking down the same road as I.

The incident you mentioned, and if it was only one person dead or even one person who was hurt in any way, is caused by someone out of touch. There are real problems with people who are in touch with religious institutions and out of touch others. Perhaps we all must be in touch we each other, rather than some group we associate with.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 09:11 PM

Blind and toothless.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:02 PM

All due respect Tom, it seems like there are quite a few that are out of touch--and, quite a few million who are not in touch with the fact that they are out of touch--

I used to be disgusted and angry when these things happened--a vanity in some ways, because it held in it the implication that I knew what to do about it--now, I just feel sick inside when they happen, because I don't understand, don't know what to do--


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST,peacenik
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

There's got to be SOME way to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Blackcatter
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 10:22 PM

I'm just waiting (but not expecting) the authorities who can end this throughout the world to care about all the killing.

I also wish that people could come up with a better way of protesting - one that might succeed.

Do I feel sorry for the victims? Yes.

Do I think anything will change anytime soon? Nope.

Do I really care? Not really - I have enough trouble paying for the 2 room apartment I live in and holding a decent job.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM

Still waiting...WHY post this here?


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Troll
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 12:51 AM

Garg.

I guess she had to post it somewhere. Maybe someone will be inspired to write a song about the event.

But I doubt it.

troll


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 04:13 AM

Yes, indeed. Why post this.......

Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 19-Jan-02 - 12:35 AM

Still waiting...WHY post this here?

here?


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST,Susan L.
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 11:49 AM

Blackcatter,

You said, "Do I really care? Not really."

Your comment made me sick to my stomach. How anyone, especially after September 11, can say they don't care about such things is so sad. That you say you care only about yourself is even sadder.

I pray to God that I'll never be like you.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 01:42 PM

Susan,

Interestingly, you didn't respond to Gargoyle--

In another thread, Art Thieme talks about the fact that folksongs are sad, because life it is sad--Blackcatter's point is that why should this sad incident draw our attention more than the 10,000 other sad incidents that took place on that calendar day?


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: marty D
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 03:12 PM

The feeling of hopelesness that Blackcatter describes is VERY easy to empathize with. If you don't have an agenda (This side is good, the other is bad) than you see nothing BUT frustration, and constant justification for killing. The only Newspaper pictures and background stories seem to deal with the anguish of the relatives of murdered Jewish victims. Perhaps if the same coverage was extended to Palestinian victims' families, we might finally see that this 'tit for tat' is completely ridiculous. Maybe more people would lose some of their lethargy, and demand an end to it. For a prominent Palestinian to demand an end to hostilities, would probably mean his death. For a prominent Israeli or American, it would guarantee electoral defeat. No wonder rational people feel hopeless.

marty


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 11:51 PM


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jan 02 - 11:53 PM

Sorry for the blank post.

Just one querie. I've not heard of a Bat Mitzvah. Isn't the ceremony for a female called a Bas Mitzvah?

Art


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 12:20 AM

Art,

As far as I know (not that I'm an expert, the term for a female's ceremony is Bat Mitzvah)

M.Ted, Marty D - thanks for your comments. Susan's the kind of person I have do deal with pretty regularly and it's nice that my feelings can be understood here.

Susan, not that I need to respond to you, but I just want you to know that while I struggle in my own life, I volunteer many hours of my time to help people. I work hard trying to develop an interfaith dialog within my community in Central Florida. I am Unitarian Universalist and have many friends in the Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, and Jewish communities as well as friends who are Quaker, United Church of Christ, Spiritualist, Congregationalist, Metropolitan CC, Unity, but few other Christian faiths want to talk about interfaith work. This is true even after 9-11.

I struggle educating politicians and other community leaders that the best way to build community is to invite everyone to the table to discuss their needs. 9-11 has helped there - nothing like an injection of "politcal correctness" Muslims in the community have seen the bulk of this change, but just to give you an example:

I went to Orlando's Martin Luther King, Jr. remembrance/celebration tonight. I has been going on for about 8 years. In that time it has begun with a march that starts at City Hall and walks to the Methodist Church several blocks away. The service held at the church is heavily Christian focused - Prayers, Christian music and the like.

This year the march went from city hall, across the R/R tracks to the Bethel Baptist Church in the middle of Parramore District which is Orlando's poorest neighborhood (and of course, nearly all black). The service was ecumenical - We got to listen to speakers from the Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Baha'i, and Christian communities. It was a wonderful service. If that was a result of 9-11, so be it. I'll take it - the whole evening was well received by the 400+ attendees. Hopefully it will become the new tradition.

Oh, and Susan, sorry I make you sick, but I would hope that if you do pray to whatever god you beleive in that you pray that he/she/it can show you how to become an instrument of making the killing and the injustice stop.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 12:35 AM

Art,

I just looked it up in the dictionary.

The term more properly transliterated from the Hebrew would be: bath miswah. For some reason the common spelling is either Bas Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah. It lists both Bas & Bat as "common" In Hebrew the 'h' is pretty weak, so I guess the pronunciation is kind of inspecific.

Since Semitic languages don't have as strong vowels as other languages, it is difficult to transfer the spelling from Hebrew or Arabic alphabets into the Roman alphabet.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 11:09 AM

Oh, the master guards the sheepfold bin,
And he wants to know is my sheep brung in,
And he's calling, calling,
Calling softly, softly calling
For them all to be gatherin' in.

This is the only religious song I sing. I love it because it is a song of inclusiveness---not one of exclusion. During my own life, I have seen the religiosity of those very close to me ruin lives because theirs was the ONLY religion worth practicing---they thought. What sadness was brought to so many ostensibly in the name of god.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 02:08 PM

Blackcatter,

I worked with an multicultural social services organization for a number of years, and ran in to the SusanL types(meaning the bloody shirt wavers) from time to time--in my experience, they were always part of an organinized effort, though they were generally very hestitant to reveal the name of the organization, and the anger that they voiced was always anger with a purpose-


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 11:12 PM

Amen to that...


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: jbailes
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 11:46 AM

art thieme: bat mitzvah is (so-called) sephardic hebrew (israeli) and bas mitzvah is ashkenzazic (western) hebrew. the former pronounces the letter "tav" as "t" while the latter pronounces the same letter, which it calls "sav," as "s." traditional english transliteration has typically used "th" for the same letter. the phenomenon is "metathesis," letters changing into other letters, as belief and believe (f and v), little pronounced liddle (t and d), or the blues song "i'm a bumberbee" (r for l). this last reference ties my response to music, and offering a last example, arabic salam and hebrew sholom, will tie it to the thieme of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 12:18 PM

Regarding the use of "th" to transliterate the tav (the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet): think of the German, where "th" is not pronounced as either of the English "th"s (that, thin).

It's only the dot-less tav that can become either a "t" or an "s". Dotted tavs are always "t". Semitic scholars assume the original was a "th" sound, which is apparantly preserved in a few Hebrew dialects, such as Yemenite Hebrew. People who don't speak English or Greek or one of the few other languages with a "th" sound usually substitute other sounds for the phoneme, ranging from z (as in French) to t (as in Irish).

Bas mitzvah is also the Yiddish way of pronouncing the word. Yiddish puts the the accent as Bas MITZ-vah, whereas Israeli Hebrew generally puts the accent on final syllables, as in Bat Mitz-VAH.

Sometimes, when I travel, I mention the need for a pit-stop, to use the Sephardic pronounciation.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Bat Mitzvah murders
From: GUEST,Jack The lad
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:51 PM

This thread does tie in to music- in an ironic and heartbreaking fashion. The singer at the celebration was a young black man, Aaron(Ronny) Ben Yisrael Ellis . He was killed on stage while sheltering his female singing partner from the terrorist. Aaron was the first Israeli born son of the sect known as The Black Hebrews, who live in Dimona. The sect has produced many fine singers and musicians, who have influenced Israeli music- bringing an element of rhythm and blues to the local scene. Aaron left a wife and a baby. May his soul rest in peace. Jack The Lad


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Mudcat time: 26 May 11:52 PM EDT

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