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Lyr Req: Here We Suffer Grief and Pain (hymn)

Haruo 21 Jan 02 - 08:47 PM
Uncle Jaque 21 Jan 02 - 11:50 PM
Haruo 22 Jan 02 - 09:53 PM
Haruo 31 Jan 02 - 11:58 PM
Burke 01 Feb 02 - 06:25 PM
MichaelAnthony 02 Feb 02 - 04:50 PM
E.T. 03 Feb 02 - 01:42 AM
E.T. 03 Feb 02 - 02:11 AM
Haruo 04 Feb 02 - 01:00 AM
Burke 05 Feb 02 - 05:56 PM
Jim Dixon 14 Oct 06 - 12:31 AM
Haruo 14 Oct 06 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,Dorothy Moore 02 Dec 10 - 01:07 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 02 Dec 10 - 01:58 PM
Haruo 03 Dec 10 - 04:22 AM
Jim Dixon 21 Dec 11 - 12:05 AM
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Subject: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Haruo
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 08:47 PM

I'm looking for a hymn apparently written by someone named T. Bilby, presumably in the 1800s. The first three lines are apparently
Here we suffer grief and pain
Here we meet to part again;
In Heaven we part no more."
though the first is the only one of which I'm sure. These three lines are quoted by Thomas Hardy in Tess of the D'Urbervilles (Book I, Chapter 51), and Google also yields the information that it was among the hymns taught to Ojibwe (aka Chippewa) Indians by missionaries (I'd love to get my hands on the Ojibwe text, too, if anybody has it!). It apparently was in the 1917 Church Hymnal and the 1919 Irish Church Hymnal (both Anglican books, I believe). And the Esperanto version by Montagu Christie Butler is in Himnaro Esperanta (whence I am hoping to post it, soon, in my own online hymnal). I am looking not only for the English and Ojibwe texts, but also for information on the tune(s) to which it was set in the hymnals mentioned (in the Esperanto hymnal it's set to a piece called Rejoicing, from the 1890 Hymnal Companion, a MIDI of which I am working up.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 11:50 PM

If i get a chance, I'll try to remember to look for it in the collection of Hymnals 1800-1930's. "Bilby", you say?

Sometimes the old Hymnals have a composor index - I'll let you know if we come up with anything.

Grief and dying seem to have been pretty common themes in the Victorian music - especially between the 1840's and the Civil-War period, for some reason. I've uncovered some real tear-jerkers amongst the dusty archives.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:53 PM

T. Bilby is supposedly the author of the lyrics, not the composer. That's according to the index in Himnaro Esperanta; my English references make no mention of the author. I have no information on the composer of REJOICING, but the 1890 volume may possibly have some (doubtful, as usually Himnaro Esperanta gives composers' names where known for the tunes it prints; for the most part it's a text-only hymnal, but this is one of the 50 or so exceptions). But my guess is either the 1917 or 1919 hymnal cited will have both the whole text and fuller info on the author and the composer of whatever tune they used. Unfortunately, as far as I know no copy of either is in the Seattle area.

I have provided all the information I have about the hymn, except for the fact that it was mentioned in a discussion at a seminar for retired Lutheran pastors in Germany, attended by the Esperanto hymnist Rev. Adolf Burkhardt, who said all they had was the first line, and enlisted my aid to find out more. Which I am doing willingly, as I do want to post the Esperanto version, fully documented, in my own hymnal.

Yes, they were lachrymose, weren't they, those Victorians? ;-)

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Haruo
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:58 PM

I have posted Nun sufero kaj dolor', M C Butler's Esperanto version of "Here we suffer grief and pain", in my online hymnal, with a MIDI of the tune Rejoicing. Still looking for the English lyrics and info regarding the author, the composer of Rejoicing, and info on the tune(s) used for the hymn in the Church Hymnal, 1917 ed., and (Irish) Church Hymnal, 1919 ed.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Burke
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 06:25 PM

Liland, I looked, but just don't have any of the English hymnals. I can't find Bilby in any of my author indexes either.

I thought it had to be missing a line, but I did find a handful of hymns & tunes with 3 lines of 7's. I don't see how your tune could fit those English words, but if your translation is a different meter I guess it would work.

Do you think the English also had a chorus? Can you give a rough translation? It might help jog the memory.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:50 PM

Liland,

It may be on my end, but I can't get to the site from your link.

Michael


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: E.T.
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 01:42 AM

I tried the Treasury of Song for the Home Circle (1882) and the 1905 Methodist hymnal with no luck, again no luck with Bilby. The earlier hymnal had a metrical reference but no luck there either.

One of the hymnals had an index of hymns by scriptural referent. It might be another approach. Elaine.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: E.T.
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 02:11 AM

postscript: This is worse than eating peanuts! Found the jockey (1941) and opera composer of "Bilby's Doll". Search on Thomas Bilby, middlesex. (google)

From the Middlesex Eng. Parish Clerk Index p.154 Bilby, Thomas, d. 1872. Schoolmaster, succeeded by his son 1872-1907. Writer of hymns. Source, PC (I assume parish clerk) p.154.

Is this the right time frame? Elaine


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Haruo
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 01:00 AM

Michael Anthony, I don't know why you might have trouble accessing the page except if you have antiporn kiddie filters on your computer (my hymnal's on GeoCities, which is presumptively unfit for the young to consume).

Elaine, thanks, looks like your google search turned up something plausible for an identification, i.e. "T. Bilby" is very likely your Thomas Bilby (not clear to me whether the son was of the same name, nor which was the hymn writer).

Burke, the lines seem to me to fit the tune just fine; the English (first three lines) and Esperanto texts both work ("Heaven" is a monosyllable, if that helps). I have no idea how the refrain of the English went; hopefully (though doubtfully) it was less ridiculous than the Esperanto, which says
Oh! it'll be joyous, joyous, joyous, joyous!
Oh! it'll be joyous, ever together in heaven!
However that last line doesn't fit the meter, and I'm not at all sure what might work.

I still think what I need is for somebody to dig out one of the two Church Hymnals (English 1917 or Irish 1919) that we know have it. I appreciate all your efforts in the meantime.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Burke
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 05:56 PM

I was hoping the chorus might help with finding this, but it turns out to be a 19th century chorus that probably has a bit of an independent existence.

I have it in a book with no music. They call it Common Meter, even though it clearly is not.
O that will be joyful,
Jouful, joyful;
O that will be joyful,
To meet to part no more.

See Joyful in your Sacred Harp for a longer version, as chorus to a Common Meter Hymn.


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Subject: Lyr Add: HERE WE SUFFER GRIEF AND PAIN
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:31 AM

From "The Infant Teacher's Assistant ... Or, Scriptural and Moral Lessons for Infants," by Thomas Bilby and R. B. Ridgway, 1834. (See Google Book Search.)

HYMN

Here we suffer grief and pain;
Here we meet to part again;–
But in Heaven we part no more.

CHORUS: O! that will be joyful!
Joyful, joyful, joyful!
O! that will be joyful!
When we meet to part no more!

All who love the Lord below,
When they die to Heaven will go,
And sing with saints above.

Little children will be there,
Who have sought the Lord by pray'r,
From every Infant* School.

Teachers, too, shall meet above,
And our Pastors, whom we love,
Shall meet to part no more.

O! how happy we shall be!
For our Saviour we shall see
Exalted on his throne!

There we all shall sing with joy,
And eternity employ
In praising Christ the Lord.

*Sunday, &c.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 03:20 AM

Thanks, Jim! What a lovely song. ;-) I knew sooner or later somebody would find it for me. Now if I can just find the Ojibwe text!

Haruo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: GUEST,Dorothy Moore
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:07 PM

Now I am so joyful to find the lyrics for this beautiful song. A dear friend taught me this song back in the early 50's when I was only a kid. I couldn't remember the third verse. thanks to you I now can sing it again, happily. Jim Dixon's version of the chorus is exactly the way I remembered it. I wish i could write music so you could know the tune......maybe I could sing it for you someday, my voice is a little rusty these days, though.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM

This hymn now appears in several sources, as coverage expands on the net.
Ojibway version at:
Oo mah uh keeng uh yah yung

The English text, identical to that posted by Jim Dixon four years ago, is on the preceding page.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:58 PM

Sorry-
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/iecm/ojibway.h36a.html

Oo mah uh keeng uh yah yung

Oo mah uh keeng uh yah yung
Ke puh ka' de min uh koo;
Kah ween ween ish pe ming.
O tuh min wan dah gwud!
O tuh min wan dah gwud!
Uh pe oo je che sag,
Moon zhug che wah bun de yung!

E gewh a nuh me ah jig
Ke zhig oong tuh e zhah wug,
Uh pe goo ne boo waud.
Oh! tuh min wan dah gwud! etc.

E gewh ah be noo je yug
Suh yah ge ah jig Christ un
'We de tuh uh yah wug.
Oh! tuh min wan dah gwud! etc.

Ka ke noo uh mah ga jig
Kuh ya 'gewh kah ge qua jig,
Tuh nuh quash kuh wah wug.
Oh! tuh min wan dah gwud! etc.

Tuh ke che min wan dah gwud,
Uh pe wah buh mung owh
Kah be mah je e nung.
Oh! tuh min wan dah gwud! etc.

E we de suh uh puh na
Ke guh moo je ge ze min,
Ke wah buh mung Je sus,
Oh! tuh min wan dah gwud: etc.

(Posted at ccel.org August 26, 2010.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here we suffer grief and pain (hymn)
From: Haruo
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 04:22 AM

And already accessed more than a thousand times!

Thanks, Q, that is a treasure, the whole book as well as the one sought-for hymn.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Here We Suffer Grief and Pain (hymn)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 12:05 AM

Musical notation for HERE WE SUFFER GRIEF AND PAIN, in an arrangement for 3 voices, can be seen in Oriola: A New and Complete Hymn and Tune Book for Sabbath Schools by William Batchelder Bradbury (Cincinnati: Moore, Wilstach, Keys & Company, 1860), page 12.

By the way, the title given there is THE HAPPY MEETING (although the lyrics begin "Here we suffer grief and pain...").


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