Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?

Subject: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 01:24 PM

My nearly seven-year-old son is interested in piano lessons. What are your thoughts on Suzuki versus traditional style lessons? (I realize that the compatibility of the teacher and the student are critical, regardless of the teaching technique.)

Some background: We don't own a piano, but have access to one in the common house of our cohousing neighborhood. (We do have a harmonium (portable pump/reed organ), though!) I mostly play frailing banjo and English concertina and sing; there's also a guitar, penny whistles, harmonica, Jew's harp, and ukele in the house, and other than the guitar, Dan has free access to these. Close friends play fiddle, guitar, mandolin, etc. I took organ lessons as a child and never got too far, but have valued that experience for the picture of the keyboard I carry in my head and how useful it is for picturing aspects of music theory. I wish I'd learned that much on piano instead, since they're more commonly encountered, and the feel and approach is so different. (I'd love to just be able to play rhythm piano...)

Dan's not terribly coordinated with his fingers, and tends to get frustrated easily. I think that the piano may be difficult at the start, but good for him, if he/we will stick with it.

Thoughts? Advice? Inspiration? Thanks!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: TNDARLN
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:10 PM

My 2 cents: It takes a parent's gentle/constant push to get a child to practice piano. No practice, no progress. Why not start him out on uke or autoharp? They're both portable, and he can learn lots of theory on either. When he's older and has more hand coordination he's more likely to be successful on the piano. And meanwhile, he can be training his ear- maybe a keyboard to play around with/explore pitch, etc. would help...T

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:46 PM

Another two cents...

I taught piano lessons mostly starting at age 8, the traditional method, even though I used a lot of the Bastien multikey approach. Any children younger than 8 (beginning readers) reaquired a slightly different approach. Some of my students had studied Suzuki and from what their moms told me, it takes a lot of dedication from the parents. They practice with the child. So if the parent is not willing to devote this time, then it's probably better to try something else. I did, however, use some of the Suzuki methods with older children. (memorize Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star in the sonatina style and play it in duets) I think it gives the child an ear for classical music and has him/her making music early on. That's not a bad approach for any age.

As far as a piano in the house...I don't recommend trying without one for more than a year. Some children would practice at Grandma's, but it usually didn't last. Also, some tried to use a small keyboard. My advice to parents was, don't get a keyboard until they are about ready to give up on the piano...but one of my best students stayed with the piano instead. (of course his parents bought him a gorgeous grand piano.) Motivation is the key to learning piano. The children that stuck with it were the ones who either had a burning drive within themselves, or supportive parents that they wanted to please.

As far as sticking with it...watch out for the second year. The learning curve is so steep the first year, kids and adults are thrilled to learn something new each week and see the skills improve. When they hit the second-year plateau...other interests take a priority. Adults drop out, some kids stick it out.

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:52 PM

Oh yes, you can often find a good used upright piano at a church for $100 or free...but you have to move it! You can also rent a piano from a music store, then decide later if you want to buy it.

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

Whichever one works for this particular child... with whichever instructor lights up the face and the fingers. Try both methods before committing, shop for the right teacher who can unlock any barriers that are there, if any-- and try self-learning.... try it all. That's how kids are, I think.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: GUEST,Deirdre
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 03:40 AM

I was a hardcore suzuki kid (ages 4-12) and am now a traditional fiddle player. The suzuki training was invaluable for learning to trust my ear and be able to play whatever I could 'sing in my head'. The drawback of so much classical training was that I had to learn to improvise as an adult and am still quite recognizable to better fiddle players as 'classically trained'. With so much traditional influence in your environment, I can't see that being a problem.

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: 53
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 03:03 PM

piano is a good core of music, and it will help in mostly all styles of playing, and usually you can use what you learn on the piano for any instrumuent. BOB

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 05:16 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, all. Susan, I've wondered about the etiquette of "shopping around," though it makes sense to me to try different teachers/approaches (unless one is obviously outstanding). Of course the tricky part of that is that, for instance, Dan's elementary school music teacher says she can't think of any piano teachers she knows who have any openings in their schedules...

For me, my organ teacher was o.k., not very dynamic, and mostly taught from one series of books. I sometimes wonder how I might have responded to someone different.

BOB, yeah, that's why I'm happy to start him with piano, though I have no dreams that he'll be a concert pianist or anything (I'm not sure what he imagines!). I'm no organist, but it definitely wasn't a waste of time.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: PaulM
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 06:46 PM

Apologies for thread drift, but what is the Suzuki Method?

I've found plenty of websites that say "innovative" "wonderful" "stunning results" etc... but none that actually explain what it is, or the philosophy behind it.

I'm curious to know.

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: PaulM
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:05 PM

Perhaps I've answered my own question...

I found this page but have no idea whether or not it's a fair description of the method.

One thing that does strike me from the linked page however is the fact that:

the child's interest is aroused by its natural desire to copy the parent

could easily, and honestly, be replaced by:

the child's lack of interest is caused by its natural desire to rebel against the parent

Paul

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:56 PM

Depends on the age they start, on rebellion.

Becky, try asking around local music stores-- they always know who is teaching because they supply the books.

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:07 PM

WYSIWIG,

Do you have anything except air inside of your head?

Whichever one works for this particular child

That was really useful, helful and insightful wasn't it?

Do you just like to hear yourself type?

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:19 PM

Paul, from what I know about the Suzuki method, that seems fairly accurate. The bit about making music first, as opposed to reading it, has to be used with very young children, and really isn't a bad approach for all ages.

As far as pleasing the parent...I think very young children always want to. Many teenagers (but certainly not all) also want to, even though none will admit it.

I always had mixed feelings about making a kid practice. It never worked with my kids, but in some families it seems to be OK. I think Marvin Hamlisch was the one who said his mother bribed him with cookies.

My only caution with postponing the reading of music is...it's hard to pick up that skill later.

What Susan said about whatever works for a particular kid I found to be true. I was asked to teach a kid to "just play the things he liked." I thought this was a terrible idea, and undermined my authority as a teacher. As it turned out, he gained a love of music and became fairly proficient in his skills. I even planted some ideas in his little developing brain that may someday blossom. (OK, so he'll probably never love opera or Bach, but at least he is respectful. *BG*) We think kids aren't listening, especially teenagers, but they absorb nearly everything we say.

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:04 PM

Exactly, Mary. Whether you look at it academically in terms of teaching styles and learning styles needing to mesh, right/left brain, and so forth.... or whether you look at it experientially (homeschooling, home daycare, parent education, parent support group leadership)-- there is no one, right answer for anything for any child. Life itself is far more complex and dynamic than that, and children are the best examples of all its richness I can think of.

Too often we blame the child for lack of interest, when actually (as many of us might recall from our early childhood music "education"), all that was wrong was the approach for that child at that particular time.

I am glad the person posting the request for advice was able to see ALL of my post, and use whatever in it was useful to her. Cuz there is no one, right way to respond in a thread, either, and people can simply take what's useful to them and leave the rest. *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:00 PM

O.k., now I've done a little Googling. For the benefit of those who come to this thread later (and for you, PaulM), here are some interesting links on the topic:

"How to find a good piano instructor" - an overview sort of article.

"Suzuki violin versus traditional violin" - a good article from the Suzuki point of view

"Talent education: the Suzuki method" - another look at Suzuki

The last two articles came from here where there are an assortment of interesting articles, not just on music teaching. The page is in the "Teacher's Lounge" area of MusicStaff.com.

This chart of traditional piano method books from various publishers was sort of interesting.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: Kaleea
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:52 AM

This is a common & important question, and much does depend upon the child. If a young child is interested in a particular instrument, I normally strongly suggest that they be allowed to persue it. master Suziki's method, while offering many plusses, for the most part, does well with very young children, is more of a basic music class, and is something which the parent is expected to participate in fully. Private lessons with a competent instructor has no equal. If the child is to learn proper technique, that is the way to go. The dilemma of the piano puts the wildcard into play. Is it available absolutely anytime which a young child might be needing to practice, or just play around at the piano?--both are equally important! Is the piano kept properly tuned? If there is a local College or University nearby, then often the piano majors offer to teach the young ones as I did through music school. I prefer an instructor with college experience as they, hopefully, will have & teach correct technique. Incorecct technique can cause problems later on. When I get a new piano student who has had a "couple" of years with another instructor, I inevitably must go back to basics & bring their technique level up to their level of sightreading. This is because there are many persons who had lots of lessons & want to make $$, but have poor technique. One way to "shop around" for a good instructor is to attend recitals of their students. Ask the instructor if they have a formal education. Unfortunately this is no guarantee, but I think one has a better chance of a more knowledgeable teacher if they do have formal training, which includes training in how to teach different personality types, and how to choose appropriate books for the individual student. I often have piano students in 6 or 8 different books. I have some who have hand me downs which are acceptable only if they are up to my standards, some have very basic books which offer a weekly lesson in one page for the students who want to play, but just don't have alot of time to put into it. Then I have students in the popular thorough sets of 3-4 books used at one time, and then there are some students who might need an advanced level which moves the student more quickly and teaches very thoroughly for the kids who will probably be playing all their lives, or perhaps be music majors. It's great to hear that parents are interested in their children's music education & truly want to offer the best that they can for their children.

Subject: RE: Help: Piano lessons: Suzuki or trad?
From: hesperis
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:17 PM

"My only caution with postponing the reading of music is...it's hard to pick up that skill later."

So is the "feel" hard to pick up later... if you learn to play by learning to read, then it can often stay very "wooden" because you aren't learning to use the ears while playing.

So don't start with reading, start with ear-playing, but don't put it off too much especially for older kids. Again, it really depends on the kid's needs.