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Baptist Sunday School words offensive?

DigiTrad:
DARKIES' SUNDAY SCHOOL
SUNDAY SCHOOL


Related threads:
Lyr Req: old folks young folks everybody come (29)
Lyr Req/Add: Sunday School (38)
Lyr Req: Baptist Sunday School? / Darkies' ... (4)


GUEST,Allan S. 22 Jan 02 - 04:16 PM
wysiwyg 22 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM
Midchuck 22 Jan 02 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,Les B. 22 Jan 02 - 05:09 PM
TNDARLN 22 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM
Kenny B 22 Jan 02 - 05:47 PM
Jimmy C 22 Jan 02 - 05:50 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 22 Jan 02 - 05:51 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 22 Jan 02 - 05:56 PM
Burke 22 Jan 02 - 06:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 02 - 06:09 PM
wysiwyg 22 Jan 02 - 06:44 PM
Mary in Kentucky 22 Jan 02 - 07:01 PM
Deckman 22 Jan 02 - 07:05 PM
M.Ted 22 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 22 Jan 02 - 09:41 PM
Deckman 22 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM
wysiwyg 22 Jan 02 - 10:09 PM
Deckman 22 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,Boab 22 Jan 02 - 10:15 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 22 Jan 02 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,Phillip 22 Jan 02 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,Guest 22 Jan 02 - 10:28 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 22 Jan 02 - 10:55 PM
NicoleC 22 Jan 02 - 11:03 PM
Bud Savoie 23 Jan 02 - 06:37 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 23 Jan 02 - 07:01 AM
Mary in Kentucky 23 Jan 02 - 07:47 AM
Genie 23 Jan 02 - 08:42 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 23 Jan 02 - 02:26 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 23 Jan 02 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Allan S. 23 Jan 02 - 07:42 PM
Mary in Kentucky 23 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM
Deckman 23 Jan 02 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 23 Jan 02 - 08:48 PM
kendall 23 Jan 02 - 10:05 PM
Haruo 23 Jan 02 - 11:30 PM
GUEST,Boab 24 Jan 02 - 01:29 AM
Genie 24 Jan 02 - 01:42 AM
Deckman 24 Jan 02 - 01:47 AM
Hrothgar 24 Jan 02 - 04:36 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 24 Jan 02 - 04:57 AM
jup 24 Jan 02 - 04:06 PM
Joe_F 25 Jan 02 - 12:36 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 25 Jan 02 - 07:45 PM
Mary in Kentucky 25 Jan 02 - 08:11 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 26 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM
GUEST,Another Allan S (FL) 07 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM
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Subject: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:16 PM

I am putting together a booklet of songs sung at a summer camp over the years. When I included the song "The Baptist Sunday School" The cho. as follows 'Old folks young folks everybody come join the Baptist Sunday School and have a lot if fun Park your razors and chewing gum at the door And you'll hear stories that you never heard before There is nothing offensive in the verses, However someone claimed that the title and cho. COULD be offensive to anyone who is Baptist. I would appreciate some feedback on this. We all sang it at a Congregational church camp years ago. THank you in advance Allan


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM

Ask the Baptists. By this I mean, if you do not know any Baptists well enough TO ask them about this-- you may not (yet) be an accurate judge of what would be offensive in your neck of the woods.

Oh, and can I get a copy of the songbook??? We do a lot of stuff in our Saturday Night Service that would not usually be done in church.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:38 PM

You realize, of course, that it was originally "...the Darkies' Sunday School...?" (IIRC, I still have those lyrics in my 1959 Song Fest...). Maybe it's better to offend the Baptists than be accused of racism.

Damn political correctness anyway!

Peter.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:09 PM

well, change the "razors" to "boxcutters" and see if that offends anyone ?!?


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: TNDARLN
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:41 PM

I'm not familiar with the tune, so I don't know what would fit, but since it was "darkies" to begin with, and "Baptist" now, surely there's a generic, non-offensive substitute word out there....[mission, maybe]

I remember how the song "Methodist Pie" went over like a ton of bricks at a Sunday night/camp meeting-style service at a Methodist Church in my recent past...

And besides, the Baptists could probably use a break.

T: Raised Baptist/In Recovery


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Kenny B
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:47 PM

It's also known over here as the Glasgow Sunday School
ie since PC took over.
I'm sure many places have changed the title to that of their own town or the next town depending on their sense of humour
Why not change it to a place name of your choice, such as any place well known for nonconformist or highly conformist views.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:50 PM

Just change the words to " Park your roller blades and bikes at the door". or something similar that may rhyme with the rest of the verse. I am not a babtist but I would question the reference to razor blades.

Good luck


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:51 PM

From a genuine(white) Baptist, my guess is that it would be offensive to black Baptists... I'll ask some of my friends. There are usually ways around offensive words. I sing a line :Makes my lips go flippety flop" instead of "makes a n.....'s lips go flippety flop." I've heard the song, and it's a lot of fun, other than the razors line. They sung it in a Lutheran Church where I was a member (a WHITE Lutheran Church) and I'll be darned if I can remember whether they changed that line.) I'm pretty sure that they did...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 05:56 PM

Being a (White) Baptist leading a black gospel quartet and attending an other-than-me all black Baptist church, I can ask some friends. I can just about guarantee that some of them are going to find it offensive. The simplest thing is to change the words in that line. I heard the song sung in a white Lutheran Church I was a member of, and they didn't have the razors line in there, from what I remember. Have 'em check something else. Like their pride. I'll get back to you on this one, or you can e-mail me at gospelmessengers@msn.com.
Jerry


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Burke
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:03 PM

I'm like Jerry. I'm almost positive I sang it but without razorblades. Chewing gum is fine, kids chewing still drives parents crazy, right.

The idea is to mention things that kids might be asked to give up because they're in church. Roller blades might fit the bill. Is your church a non-smoking area? You could use cigarettes.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:09 PM

The Baptists aren't alone.

"The Song of the Salvation Army"

"Merrily Danced the Quaker" - though the tune is surely always "Merrily Kissed the Quaker".

"I'd like to be a Mormon"

But this Black Baptist Church, White Baptist Church, Black Methodist Church, White Methodist Church bit is somewhat weird isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 06:44 PM

Nope, it's common, and there are good reasons among the less positive ones, too.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 07:01 PM

Growing up, I hung out with some Baptists (actually all the cute boys went to the Baptist Church) and they taught us this one. But I always thought it was "rasers" as in erasers...you know, throwing them...

I was always impressed with their knowledge of Bible stories.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 07:05 PM

Darned good thread!. Back in the 1950's, I was the "token white" in an all black theatre group in Seattle. Grand time, grand people, grand experiences. Besides being the resident folksinger, I was also being trained as a stage actor. (it must have worked as I've into my second marriage now) ((sorry))! (((sorta)))! The song you posted has very strong overtones of earlier years of racial segregation and black predudice. No doubt about that! It also happens to be a darned good song, especially for youngsters, Baptist or otherwise. It's a real delemma ... what to do? Change the words and bastardize the song? I'm enough of a purist that I won't change the words just to make it acceptable today. The songs I sing now are yesterday history! Don't sing the song? I don't have a good answer. I refuse to sing these songs, and I know many, in public any more. I do however enjoy them to myself, and at the occasional hoot, with my dear friends that also shared those years. If someone has a better answer, I'd love to hear it. CHEERS, Bob


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM

all this talk and no lyrics--somebody, please post!


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM

The fact that something is common, or even might have positive aspects, doesn't stop it seeming weird.

I'm used to the idea that there might be congregations which are overwhelmingly something or other, because of the locality - Irish or Italian or Spanish or whatever, and that colours the style and the singing, and maybe the language used, but that's not quite the same thing is it?

The Catholic church I go to probably has as many Philipinos and Vietnamese these days as it has Irish and English, and at present there's a Polish priest. I suppose that'd seem weird in some places.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:41 PM

Jery, I'm sure that the reference to razors would have been offensive to members of the Black Baptist Church you sing with, but maybe less so now, since most people don't recall the folding straight razor so common in the 1900-1930 era (maybe longer). It was supposed to be the weapon of choice of the Blacks. A common joke among white kids was that a Black could toss an apple into the air and peel it with his razor before it hit the ground. We had one Black kid in our primary school (1930s) and he assured us that it was true. In those days one of our favorite games at lunch break was mumbleypeg, and he was good at it. Nowadays, kids carrying knives to school get rousted, but at that time, every boy carried a good pocket knife and many of us had hunting knives which we used on the trees.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM

To "M.Ted" ... You asked for a posting. Here's one verse that I remember:

Young folks, old folks, everybody come
Join the Darkey Sunday school and have a lot of fun
Please check your chewing gum and razors at the door
And you'll hear some Bible stories that you never heard before

The verses went on about the ark, and Noah, and animals that came in ... two by two. Bob


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:09 PM

McGrath, I think of it in terms of rich and very different cultures giving rise to inceasingly distilled and distinct flavors of spiritual expression.... these would not transfer between cultures without a sad loss occurring, although one could share across those cultural differences without diluting them. I see these as rational choices to go in the direction of something that satisfies, not away from something feared.

Weird? Wondrous, I think.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

You know who I'd like to hear from on this issue ... Guy Carawan! I met him, several time in the fifties, read his book, and he and I did share tales of being single white folks in a black crowd. Guy, if you are a mudcatter, would you jump in here please. Cheers, Bob Nelson, Everett, Washington.


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Subject: Lyr Add: BAPTIST SUNDAY SCHOOL
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:15 PM

As has been said, before things got serious, it was "Darkies", but in order to protect the ethnic integrity of a haggis-bashin' porridge-eater I propose to stick to "Baptist----"

CHORUS: Big folk, wee folk, everybody come.
Join the Baptist Sunday school and join in all the fun.
Bring your stick of chewing gum and squat upon the floor,
And they'll tell you Bible stories like you've never heard before!

Esau was a hunter of the wild and woolly west.
Father left him half the goods and brother took the rest.
Esau thought the title deeds weren't very clear,
So he sold the whole caboodle for a sandwich and a beer. CHORUS

Moses was the leader of the Israelites, y'know.
He tapped the rock with stick to make the water flow.
Then the Israelites they raised a mighty cheer
For instead of flowing water, it flowed Tennant's lager beer! CHORUS


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:22 PM

I think that it all boils down to different strokes for different folks. Even in matters of faith. I was a member of a Lutheran Church for several years. There was a black Baptist church across the street. I mean, it's a Baptist church that only blacks go to, with a very, very few exceptions. There are Baptist churches that are primarily white. Mostly because of a different style of worship. When I was at the Lutheran Church I got to know some of the singers in the black church, because they wre rebuilding their church and the Lutheran Church was letting them have choir practice there. There was a very positive relationship between the two churches, but not much socializing. I started a series of potluck dinner/gospel sings jointly sponsored and alternately hosted by each church. By the time the Baptist church was finished, I had joined it, and we had a chance to host the dinner and sing at our new church. There was a lot of love, and good fun had at those potluck dinners, and the music was great... half old familiar hymns from the Lutheran church, and the other half old gospel and spirituals. I never saw signs of prejudice, either way. And yet, the two churches worship in their own way, across the street from each other. It's not really "black" or "white." It's more cultural than color.

And, Dicho, that's the first time I've heard anyone mention mummbletypeg in God knows how many years. I was thinking about it myself a couple of days ago. I was thinking I guess I'm an old-timer. I use a push lawn mower and I showel snow. And I wouldn't feel dressed without a jacknife in my pocket. Sounds like you're an old-timer, too.
Jerry


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:24 PM

Don't make any references to hummus or the Shiite Baptists will get upset...


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:28 PM

Mary had a baby down by the river Nile She found him in the river playing with a crocodile She took him to her father "said i found him by the shore " tut tut my girl said Pharoh' Ive heard that one before,


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 10:55 PM

Yeah, Jerry, I also remember that many of the boys wore lace-up boots in winter. One brand had a little pocket on the side of one boot with a nice knife in it. We wouldn't let our parents buy any other brand. Lots of things have changed.
Amos and Andy were the most popular comedians. Everything stopped for that radio show. Although blackface, the situations- the industrious, level-headed Amos and the boastful, improvident Andy struck a chord with everybody because we either had in our family or knew of people of the same type as the characters in the show. I don't believe that show contributed to racial discrimination, but now that show is deplored. It took the Black comedian Red Foxx to bring back a similar kind of comedy.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: NicoleC
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 11:03 PM

Bob (Deckman),

As an audience member, it wouldn't bother me to have the lyrics changed to suit the times -- after all, that's a fine old folk tradition, and the performer's ingenuity can be a lot of fun. But it also seems shame to hide lyrics that are such a reflection of a time and culture, or worse to stop playing a song at all! Perhaps the venue might be a deciding factor. If it's an educational and historic event, then the old lyrics might be best and perhaps even explained.

But for a purely social venue, I think I'd rather hear something that wasn't going to offend the audience members.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 06:37 AM

I learned it as a kid from a Methodist friend, and he sang it: "Come to the Sunday school and have a lot of fun." No color or denomination required.

Some more verses:

Salome was a dancer who did the hootchie-kootch
She wasn't very modest and she didn't wear too mooch [much]
The king said, "Salome, there will be no scandal here,"
But Salome said, "The hell with you" and kicked the chandelier.

Jonah was a sinful man, went out for a swim.
He was minding his own business when a whale swallowed him.
Jonah knew the Coast Guard was way beyond his reach,
So he tickled the whale's belly and it spit him on the beach.

Daniel was a naughty boy, wouldn't obey the king.
King said he wouldn't stand for any such a thing,
So they put him in a lions' den with lions down beneath,
But Daniel was a dentist and he pulled out all their teeth.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:01 AM

Hi-cut boots with a pocket in the side for a jacknife. Ahhhhh!! As far as Amos and Andy are concerned, Joe and Frank in my gospel quartet really liked Amos and Andy and weren't offended by it, and they're black. Like everything else, it's impossible to generalize. Frank loved Uncle Dave Macon, and both Frank and Joe loved the Grand Ole Opry and like bluegrass. My feeling is, if you only offend 10% of the audience, why do it? You never know what people have suffered. When Frank and Joe, who are now in their seventies, were growing up down south, they had family members who were ex-slaves who were still living. There were still iron posts and shackles in the center of the town where they chained the slaves before auction. The church that I go to was started by 25 ex-slaves in the back room of a tavern (which wasn't in use Sunday mornings.) Slavery isn't that long ago. Neither are lynchings and the Ku Kux Klan. The line "Come to the Sunday School and have a lot of fun" is probably the way they sang it at a Lutheran church where I heard it a few years ago. A good choice. My group sings a similar song, Who Built The Ark? which I like a lot better, though. Check the thread Oh, Mona for the lyrics...
Jerry


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:47 AM

The words are in the DT here, Darkies' Sunday School, along with a previous discussion.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Genie
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:42 AM

What? Change the words to a folk song? Good heavens! What's this world coming to?

Genie §;-)


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:26 PM

It's traditional to change words, Genie The traditional, authentic folksingers did it all the time.
Jerry


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 02:32 PM

Mary, type the title Darkies' Sunday School in the blue box and you get the version you put the clickie to. Type the title in the Digitrad and Forum Search box below it, and the PC version comes up. Ah, the vagaries of Mudcat!
A long discussion from 1999 is Here
That thread is full of emotion. Have we mellowed a bit since 1999?
Thinking back, most of what we heard about PC came from politically-minded heads of various organizations. What do the average people think? Has political correctness helped the racial situation in America? What damage is being done by people like Pat Buchanan who rant against our immigration policies?
This is more thread creep in what started out as a thread on a song. What seems to me to be a trend is the push for immigration changes to increase the "anglo" content, and the fact that the use of second languages is being discouraged, particularly among Latinos. Perhaps a discussion thread would be a better place for these ruminations.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Allan S.
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:42 PM

First of all, I must thank everyone for all the help with the song. Actually, I have the IOCA Song fest. When I was in the Outing Club U-Conn 1952-7 we sang it as the Baptist Sunday School. I didn't realize it started life as the Darkie Sunday School. So the kids age 9-19 would never know that.

I have changed the chorus as follows:

Young folks, old folks, every body come
Come and join our Sunday School and have a lot of fun.
Park your chewing gum and sodas at the door.
And you will hear bible stories that you never heard before.

That minor change should make everyone happy.

Wow I remember those "High cut" boots with the pocket knife pocket. The strange thing is that children don't know how to use or much less sharpen a knife blade. In one of my art classes I was teaching on the high school level not one of the students knew how to sharpen a pencil with a knife. My grandfather gave me my first pocket knife when I was 9 years old and I have had one in my pocket for the rest of my life. They are a working tool. I can not think of one man in the building trade that does not have and use a knife. In fact, I should change that to any person who works with his hands.
Well thanks again and God bless. Allan


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 07:51 PM

Just a minor addition to the words...I learned it as "And I'll tell you Bible stories that you never heard before."


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:45 PM

A couple of comments:

Nicole ... I appreciate your comments. I'm at the age where changing the words for political correctness doesn't come easy. And like you say, rather than offend, I'll skip that song. I do NOT like to be offensive.

Jerry ... I'm curious what town, and what era, these two churchs were located in.

Thanks, Bob


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 08:48 PM

Somehow I'd always assumed that the Glesga version was the original, since the razor was a cultural weapon of sorts there, along with the bayonet for the rougher element.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: kendall
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 10:05 PM

When I was a boy, I used to jump back and forth between the Baptist church, and the Mormon church. The Mormons sang "Darkies", but, in the song "Betsy from Pike" they never sang the verse that goes, They stopped at Salt Lake to inquire the way, and Brigham declared that sweet Betsy should stay, but, Betsy was frightened and she ran like a deer, while Brigham stood pawing the ground like a steer.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Jan 02 - 11:30 PM

I'm a Baptist (albeit of the radical-liberal-gay-hugging variety that some of my co-believers deny has a right to the label) and I find nothing offensive about the fact that there is a version of this song that uses "Baptist" in place of "Darkies'". I would not be offended at hearing it sung. But then there are Baptists who will be offended at anything you might name, probably including some who will be offended if you don't sing "their theme song"... However, I find the spelling "babtist" offensive. FWIW. (Not very offensive, just mildly so.)

Liland

Self-Appointed Unordained Spelling Monitor at BaptistLife.com


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:29 AM

I think we should stop and consider! It's a kind of funny ditty which pops up in various venues. Traditional? Well, if ye like; but to this fella it's like a lot of other scraps of song that appear on the menu from the past----it would do no harm to leave it there[even if it is harmless]. It has just about the depth of a puddle----


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Genie
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:42 AM

Jerry R.,
My tongue was firmly implanted in my cheek when I posted above.

Kendall, I love your Mormon verse to "Sweet Betsy!"

Liland,
As a Baptist PK who did college at Baylor and William Jewell, I'm not easily offended by "Babdist" jokes. One of the best athletic "spirit ribbons" I ever saw was one that SMU sported when Baylor played them in football in 1959. Baylor had a spirit ribbon with a bear shoving a horse into a corral, with the caption "Corral the Mustangs." SMU's showed a horse stuffing a bear down the toilet, with the caption "John the Baptists!"

BTW, do you know why Baptists don't make love standing up?

Because it might lead to dancing!

Genie §;-)


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 01:47 AM

To "Guest Boab", I really like your phrase ..."it has the depth of a puddle." Well said! However I have to respectfully dissagree. This song, The Darky Sunday School, has an incredible history and import. Let me try to explain. Because if my circumstances, I do a LOT of singing at olde folks homes, nursing homes, etc. My Father is 93, my Mother 88. I am around OLDE folks all the time. I am often asked if I know this song or that. The Darky Sunday School is often requested. I do believe this song is a perfect example of the inherent sterotyping that occurs. When I am asked to sing this "ditty," I don't, because I don't want to perpetuate it. It will take several more generations for these songs to die out, but they will. Again, I'm NOT trying to start a fight, but I DO think this song has more depth and history to it. Respectfully, Bob


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Hrothgar
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:36 AM

I learned it as "little Sunday school" thirty-five years ago, and I don't remember much political correctness going around then.

Is this a solution for somebody?


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:57 AM

Bob: The two churches I mentioned have an interesting, parallel history. They're both about the same age... each is over 100 years old and are among the oldest churches in the state. Union Baptist Church was started by 25 ex-slaves in the back of a tavern, and St. John's Lutheran Church was started by a handful of Swedish immigrants. Two small groups of people who came together to worship with a shared heritage. Each church tries to remember where they came from. Union Baptist had a full length, professionally written play on New Year's Eve about the history of slavery and the excitement of the "Watch Night" in 1962, when the slaves were freed at midnight. St. John's celebrates Santa Lucia, a folk tale/myth about a woman who was burned at the stake for being a Christian. Now, St. John's is making their space available for a small group of Czechoslovakians who are trying to start a church.
Both churches are in Stamford, Connecticut, across the street from each other. The Gospel Sings that I organized ended three years ago when my wife and I moved to Derby, CT. This is serious thread wander, so I'll add anything else in a p.m.

Genie: I noticed the tongue. Same about being dead. Sally Rogers added a verse to a song that I wrote once, and was mortified to find out that I had written the song. She thought it was traditional. Guess it's all right to change lyrics of dead folks..
Jerry Jerry


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: jup
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 04:06 PM

Oh! Tolerance Tolerance where is Tolerance! Why don't Baptists believe in premarital sex ? Ans. Because it could lead to danceing!!! Jup.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Joe_F
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:36 PM

I learned the song from a black man who had been a minister (I forget which denomination). He made it "Darky Sunday School". But that was 1951, and this is now.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:45 PM

McGrath, an old Negro expression, said of a man about to get into trouble, is that "He has been drinkin' razor soup." From your comments, there is a parallel tradition in Glasgow.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday Sunday words offensive???
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:11 PM

Funny how expressions have different meanings to different cultures and generations. I always heard "razor soup" as, "Looks like he's had his razor soup today." meaning someone who is sharp, quick on the uptake, ready to spar, can't get one over on him.


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Subject: Lyr Add: DRINKING RAZOR SOUP
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 12:14 AM

Mary, I found this little rhyme. Its variations could explain how "razor soup" could get two meanings. Thomas W. Talley, a black Chemistry professor at Fisk Univ., collected Negro Folk Rhymes and published them in 1922.
DRINKING RAZOR SOUP

He's been drinkin' razzer soup;
Dat sharp Nigger, black like ink.
If he don't watch dat tongue o' his,
Somebody'll hurt 'im 'for' he think.

He cain't drive de pigeons t' roost,
Dough he talk so big an' smart.
Hain't got de sense to tole 'em in.
Cain't more 'an drive dat ole mule chyart.

Most of the rhymes were collected before 1920, so the song and talk of Southern Negroes, 1900-1940, are captured in his book. The "N" word was used frequently by them. It had several senses, difficult for someone like me who is not Black to understand. It meant "us together against them," it meant "low-down no-'counts," (unlike the right-living speaker), it was a lament about insignificance and status, and, depending on the situation, probably had other shades of meaning as well. Perhaps only the Negro convicts on the large prison farms use it regularly now.
The book has been enlarged with many more rhymes from Talley's notebooks and published by The University of Tennessee in 1991, "Negro Folk Rhymes." Discussions by Talley and C. K. Wolfe contribute to a most interesting book.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: GUEST,Another Allan S (FL)
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:10 PM

Gee, it's great to find this thread, though apparently the conversation started years ago and nobody who started it is reading it now.

My scoutmaster taught us that song as Darky Sunday School. When I sang it for my kids I cleaned it up similarly to the first Allan S post: Join us at the Sunday School and have a lot of fun. I didn't bother with the chewing gum and razors line. Figured it would go over their heads anyway.

Here's a verse we sang (to add to the collection):

Adam was the first man that ever was invented.
He lived all alone and he was discontented.
All night long you could hear him moan,
"I'm gettin' mighty tired of livin' all alone."

And another version of Salome:

Salome was a dancer; she danced the hoochy-cooch.
She danced before the kings and queens and didn't wear so mooch.
The queen said, "Stop! We'll have no scandal here."
Salome said, "The heck we won't!" and kicked the chandelier.


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Subject: RE: Baptist Sunday School words offensive?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:45 PM

Baptist hymns from 1846- sure to put the congregation to sleep:
"Federal Street Baptist Sabbath School" - At American Memory.


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