BS: Where's the missing gun?

Subject: Where's the missing gun?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:08 PM

I found an interesting article about the media coverage of the man who went on the shooting spree at the law school in Virginia a couple of weeks ago--Worth a read for anyone who's still in denial about the media's anti-gun ownership agenda. Published in the NY Post (If you can't find anything in the article that you can prove wrong, that bit of info will be useful, since you can attack the newspaper as not being among the liberal council of truth (NY Times, Washington Post, etc.) I can't wait to see what everyone has to say...

THE MISSING GUN
By JOHN R. LOTT, JR.

January 25, 2002 -- ANOTHER school shooting occurred last week and the headlines were everywhere the same, from Australia to Nigeria. This time the shooting occurred at a university, the Appalachian Law School. As usual, there were calls for more gun control. Yet in this age of "gun-free school zones," one fact was missing from virtually all the news coverage: The attack was stopped by two students who had guns in their cars.

The fast responses of two male students, Mikael Gross, 34, and Tracy Bridges, 25, undoubtedly saved multiple lives.

Mikael was outside the law school and just returning from lunch when Peter Odighizuwa started his attack. Tracy was in a classroom waiting for class to start.

When the shots rang out, utter chaos erupted. Mikael said, "People were running everywhere. They were jumping behind cars, running out in front of traffic, trying to get away."

Mikael and Tracy did something quite different: Both immediately ran to their cars and got their guns. Mikael had to run about 100 yards to get to his car. Along with Ted Besen (who was unarmed), they approached Peter from different sides.

As Tracy explained it, "I aimed my gun at him, and Peter tossed his gun down. Ted approached Peter, and Peter hit Ted in the jaw. Ted pushed him back and we all jumped on."

What is so remarkable is that out of 280 separate news stories (from a computerized Nexis-Lexis search) in the week after the event, just four stories mentioned that the students who stopped the attack had guns.

Only two local newspapers (the Richmond Times-Dispatch and the Charlotte Observer) mentioned that the students actually pointed their guns at the attacker.

Much more typical was the scenario described by the Washington Post, where the heroes had simply "helped subdue" the killer. The New York Times noted only that the attacker was "tackled by fellow students."

Most in the media who discussed how the attack was stopped said: "students overpowered a gunman," "students ended the rampage by tackling him," "the gunman was tackled by four male students before being arrested," or "Students ended the rampage by confronting and then tackling the gunman, who dropped his weapon."

In all, 72, stories described how the attacker was stopped without mentioning that the student heroes had guns.

Unfortunately, the coverage in this case was not unusual. In the other public school shootings where citizens with guns have stopped attacks, rarely do more than one percent of the news stories mention that citizens with guns stopped the attacks.

Many people find it hard to believe that research shows that there are 2 million defensive gun uses each year. After all, if these events were really happening, wouldn't we hear about them on the news? But when was the last time you saw a story on the national evening news (or even the local news) about a citizen using his gun to stop a crime?

This misreporting actually endangers people's lives. By selectively reporting the news and turning a defensive gun use story into one where students merely "overpowered a gunman" the media gives misleading impressions of what works when people are confronted by violence.

Research consistently shows that having a gun is the safest way to respond to any type of criminal attack, especially these multiple victim shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:17 PM

Loopy: You are NOT suggesting bias in the mainstream press are you? Tsk, Tsk.

Thanks for posting this story. I followed that story pretty well, I thought, but never until I read your post, did I know that guns were used to help subdue the killer.

I would think your post will draw some interesting responses.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM

Therefore, instead of making it more difficult for kids to obtain guns, we just need to make sure that every kid has one, eh Loopy? It's just too bad they had to run all the way to their cars. So it would make even more sense if these kids were allowed to carry their guns to class with them, eh Loop? And then, we could invite IRA licensed instructors to teach compulsory Firearms Safety and Usage classes on site. Every school could have a Firing Range and a marksmanship team! Think of it!

But no! Those policies make way too much sense, and our Liberal school districts and media would never allow it!

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:25 PM

Actually, LEJ, I'm inclined to offer the thought that we are most easily hurt by that which we understand the least. In this society, for many people, that includes guns, as well as people of the opposite gender. :>) Your idea has a lot of lmerit!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:45 PM

Hmmm. LEJ, I think both you and Amos might have a point there.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:49 PM

The respondents were hardly "kids" - 34 and 25, well past legal gun ownership age.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: GUEST,Phillip
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:25 PM

Quote from Archie Bunker:

"Geez, Edith, da way to stop all da hijackings is to give everybody a gun when dey get on da plane!"

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 07:27 PM

news stories that extoll the virtues of guns will only serve to prod those who SHOULDN'T have them into getting them, I suspect.

There was an article published locally here about interviews with kids who were arguing that plain old 'fighting' was just too bothersome...if you have a beef with someone, it was just 'easier' to settle it with a gun....

lovely thinking....lets let 'em ALL have guns...we'll soon see who's top dog, huh?

yeah, I know..."but the bad guys have 'em now" ...I just do NOT think the answer is to hand out MORE guns...I think the best response is to get VERY serious about limiting guns in society...("oh, but the NRA will never allow...".....*shrug*...I'm describing what I think SHOULD happen

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 09:33 PM

What interest do Australia and Nigeria have in gun laws in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 02 - 10:39 PM

What we really need is NUT control!

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:09 PM

That's it, extrapolate your own wacked-out conclusions from an article pointing out the fact that the news media won't mention when guns are used responsibly to stop crimes. Yes, let's arm all children in school... sure, that's exactly what I'm saying... how'd you ever forking guess? Good lord, is that what you think the article is really trying to say? If your reasoning abilities have that far to go before engaging in a simple discussion of the media's blatant omission of facts pertinent to a story in order to advance a leftist agenda, then the issue really isn't worth discussing, is it?

Amazing--The majority of responses appear to be in favor of allowing the gunman to continue shooting while trying to reason with him to put the gun down--After all two wrongs don't make a right, and what kind of message would we be sending the world if we used a gun to kill someone who's using a gun to kill someone--To liberals, both guns are equally evil, and a few more bullets in a few more innocent brains is a more than fair price to pay for there being two less guns available to stop the crime--I mean, what if a toddler had broken into the car and used the gun to shoot himself? What if a criminal had broken into the car and shot even more people? What if a dog opened the car door, took the gun in his mouth, pulled the trigger with his paw, and shot a hole in the gas tank, causing the car to burst into flames release harmful ozone into the atmosphere? That's too heavy a price to pay. There's plenty of humans, so we won't miss a few... But mother earth, well, there's only one of her. (See, I'm using the same logic to extrapolate a ridiculously radical conclusion from your agruments--Fun to demonstrate absurdity by being absurd, isn't it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:22 PM

right on, Kendall! Loopy - it is both appalling and telling that such important facts were left out of the main stream coverage. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 04:34 PM

Well you have a point there Loopy....Two wrongs don't make a right...but three do, so luckily there were two other motherfuckers with available weaponry to add in and now you had three......Obviously a good situation.

I'm endorsing keeping guns everywhere. Put them in your glovebox, your waistband, on your ankle. under your shoulder, in your toaster, your diaperbag......Put them everywhere you might need one. You never know and when that guy gets to blastin', grab one a shoot the sumbitch. If you'rekids shoot themselves, who cares, as long as I'm armed and ready to go to the post office, the school, or the pistol range...all popular places to do some shooting.

The added benefit here is that if I'm having a bad day, I can squeeze off a few here and there and really feel better. If it's a real bad day, maybe I can blow away a few rabbits or squirrels or if it's super bad, a few citizens. Say, where do you live Loop? I might be in your neighborhood on one of those days.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 06:07 PM

I'm all for nut control. It's true, there are a lot of people who own guns legally who shouldn't have them but I don't know what the answer to that is. If the bad guys are always going to find a way around the law, then the good guys need to be able to fight back with something besides a Swiss army knife or a frying pan.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 06:40 PM

...oh no you don't Loopy. I'm never saying another freakin' thing about this on the forum!!!! I might post some lyrics tonight but THAT'S IT!!!!!

hg

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 06:44 PM

BTW...isn't it awful what they did to Marie Antoinette?

hg

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 06:45 PM

A bad guy was shooting up a school. A couple of good guys took him down. How is it relevant to the story if they used their (presumably legal) personally-owned firearms, their bare hands, or a chunk of 2x4? Some papers choose to print that part. Others certainly choose to tell what the principals' ages, races and sexes were. Probably others mentioned that one (or more) of them were veterans. I expect there were some who elected not to run the story at all.

Three cheers for freedom of the press.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 06:57 PM

Art: I think one of the main points of the post is: if you are going to run the story, tell all the facts. Don't censor them. I believe Loopy is pointing out that guns can be used for good as well as bad. I don't think including the positive roll of the use of guns in the event would cause everybody to go out and buy a gun anyway.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 07:19 PM

The story, as run in the Arizona Republic, didn't mention weapons being used by the other students. I never thought of that paper as being particularly afflicted with liberal (whatever that word means) bias when I lived there. My point is that a paper's choice to cut a wire story to meet their needs and to fit available space doesn't equate to a vast plot to suppress information.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:37 PM

no.

I actually think what Loopy is trying to ask is quite simple;

Why do you honestly think that this story would be run -- on such a large scale (nationally) -- with such a glaring factual omission.

One needn't choose sides in the gun control debate to have an honest discussion about the core issue of this discussion.

For my part.....as long as we're not going to address the issue asked......I would vote for supression of stories of all mass shootings. I swear to god that if there were not stories there'd be no shootings .....but..... gotta sell goddamn newspapers and commercial TV time.....and we live in a generation so Ricki-maury-oprah-springered that the whole damn culture can't tell the difference between fame and infamy.

rant over.

For what it's worth Loopy, the story speaks for itself re; bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 08:51 PM

But in the article Loopy posted it says this...

ANOTHER school shooting occurred last week and the headlines were everywhere the same, from Australia to Nigeria.

To reiterate, could someone please explain to me why other countries such as Australia and Nigeria would give enough of a poop about the gun laws in the US to have any kind of bias or agenda whatever, much less purposely omitting important information like that?

That sounds kind of like hyperbole to me, which makes me wonder what sort of agenda Jon Lott might have with regard to this issue, and it makes the rest of the article somewhat suspect to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:08 PM

CarolC

...so you think that the majority of articles written about the incident actually did mention the 2nd and 3rd firearms, and that Mr. Lott was mis-applying statistics?

And Is Mr Lott's point invalidated by the potential hyperbole?

And can you answer the core question without the sensation of feeling "trapped" by Mr Lott's observations? (provided, hyperbole aside, that his observation is based in fact)

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:23 PM

...so you think that the majority of articles written about the incident actually did mention the 2nd and 3rd firearms, and that Mr. Lott was mis-applying statistics?

I have no idea. That's why I'm asking clarifying questions.

And Is Mr Lott's point invalidated by the potential hyperbole?

Possibly. That's why I'm asking clarifying questions.

And can you answer the core question without the sensation of feeling "trapped" by Mr Lott's observations? (provided, hyperbole aside, that his observation is based in fact)

Could you please explain to me what you mean by that question? In particular the bit about feeling "trapped"?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:44 PM

CarolC

I read your posts alot, as I find you to be caring and sensitive and you come across as the type who lives like they type. So I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just noticed though, what seemed to be looking for an out -- being extraordinarily skeptical -- as if you felt trapped by his facts and would go to extrordinary logical gymnastics to get back to where it's comfortable -- with a media you can trust.

Obviously I was wrong. You were merely asking for clarification, though part of me still wonders if you didn't already suspect that the verification for which you ask is not possible, and therefore your question alone carries the day for the notion of an unbiased media.

You're certainly not wrong for asking though. Loopy probably should have approached us with a better developed research in order to back any contigent questions that may have come up re; the veracity of his source.

For my part, I saw the point that Loopy was making .... but it doesn't take much to convince me of a media who is more agenda based than news based.

I do not want an unbiased media. If I had one wish it would be to be able to come up with some way to require that the media actually make their biases public knowledge. The media has enjoyed a power as the 4th branch of government for too long by maintaining this illusion of neutrality.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:49 PM

y'know what? Just ignore me. I'm fulla shit as usual. I just had a really crappy recording session and I'm just damn cranky.

Forgive me?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 09:59 PM

I don't think you're full of shit, John. Sorry about your crappy recording session.

I actually haven't ever given my opinions about gun control in the Mudcat. But it's probably easy for people to make assumptions about what they think my position might be. On the issue that's being addressed in the article Loopy posted, I don't feel that I have enough information to form an opinion yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:12 PM

Skip the apology John.....You made your point! Good one!

One wish huh? I'm not sure what it would be.

The press has bias. Period. I wouldn't argue that the majority of the "mainstream" press has a distinctly liberal bias, but that is a majority and certainly not all. The Press? The Times? Sure, very liberal. But all papers and news organizations have a bias to some degree and anyone with an IQ above 3 needs to take that into account, especially on controversial issues such as these. Reading and listening only to one source, or even two or threaa is no way to analyze the news on these subjects. As to this story, one of my local news channels, owned by the local conservative newspaper, did in fact report the gun side of the story.

I tell you what really gets to me..........People will not acknowledge that their favorite source is whatever it is. If I remark on a CNN story, it's simply a remark and I'm asking for other info. About then a Fox watcher will go on and on about CNN and that the only news fit to be heard comes from Fox. The converse is also true. If Doug reports something from Fox, someone will jump on him and Fox and extoll the virtues of their favorite. It's stupid. Both (and all) stories surrounding politics and controversial issues have a bias and it needs to be taken into account. Like you though, I wish the damn peole in charge would just say, "Yeah, we lean *****" and be done with it. Then they'd never get another interview from the ones who might oppose them, even in the slightest for fear of being labeled as a **** dupe.

When they approved Freedom of the Press, I think the old boys also felt that the responsibility for deciding truth still fell to the citizen. It still does.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Jan 02 - 10:24 PM

aw hell,

......so you have to go getting wise on me. Couldn't you have inserted the word "flatulence" into the above comment so as to compromise yer own credibility?! I don't so much hate it when you're right....
....yeah, I guess I do hate it!

Carol,
Thanks for the understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 12:01 AM

Spaw: touche'. That's French for I agree, you know(but it's spelled in Arizonan).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 02:47 PM

Spaw, If I could drink at work, I'd raise a toast to your last post. Only problem is that it's too lengthy to fit on a bumper sticker...

"I wish the damn peole in charge would just say, 'Yeah, we lean *****' and be done with it. Then they'd never get another interview from the ones who might oppose them, even in the slightest for fear of being labeled as a **** dupe.

You might cause some head-on collisions with people tailgating to read such small print...

And just so you know I don't blindly listen to Fox News, I'll mention one thing they do that confuses me--They present middle-to-right news coverage all day, then every weekend they have late night "magazine" type shows that almost always seem to have a feature on the porn industry, a porn star, or anything else they can find to associate with porn. I have no real problem with porn, if vicarious remote-control 2-D thrills are your thing, but it is a bit odd that such a supposed right-wing news show would regularly present stories that are guaranteed to alienate it's supposedly all-conservative viewership.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the missing gun?
From: DougR
Date: 30 Jan 02 - 03:39 PM

Hmmmm. I guess I'm going to have to start listening to Fox News Network on the weekend! I've been using the weekend to listen to the other side (Networks and CNN). Fox programming sounds as though it might be more interesting though.

DougR