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Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig

DonMeixner 31 Jan 02 - 09:07 PM
Sorcha 31 Jan 02 - 09:30 PM
DonMeixner 31 Jan 02 - 11:39 PM
alison 31 Jan 02 - 11:58 PM
DonMeixner 01 Feb 02 - 12:20 AM
alison 01 Feb 02 - 12:26 AM
Manitas_at_home 01 Feb 02 - 02:09 AM
Geoff the Duck 01 Feb 02 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Donal Lunny (escaped from Drumcree thread) 01 Feb 02 - 06:22 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 02 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,DonMeixner 01 Feb 02 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,The Ghost Of Willie Clancy 01 Feb 02 - 07:58 AM
weepiper 01 Feb 02 - 02:40 PM
Manitas_at_home 02 Feb 02 - 05:09 AM
GUEST 02 Feb 02 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,Sharon G 02 Feb 02 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Sharon G 02 Feb 02 - 04:40 PM
Manitas_at_home 03 Feb 02 - 03:13 AM
DonMeixner 03 Feb 02 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Sharon 05 Feb 02 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Sharon 05 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM
musicmick 05 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Sharon 05 Feb 02 - 04:13 PM
DonMeixner 05 Feb 02 - 06:56 PM
GUEST 05 Feb 02 - 07:38 PM
Manitas_at_home 06 Feb 02 - 01:57 AM
GUEST,Confusion reigns 06 Feb 02 - 04:06 AM
DonMeixner 06 Feb 02 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Roger O'K 22 Feb 02 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,SharonG 22 Feb 02 - 03:53 PM
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Subject: An easy Treble Jig
From: DonMeixner
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:07 PM

|Need the name of a treble jig that will be easy to follow for some novice step dancers. It would be nice if it were easy to learn as well.

Don


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: Sorcha
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 09:30 PM

You might try St. Patrick's Day in the Morning or Swallowtail Jig.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: DonMeixner
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:39 PM

Thanks Sorcha,

BTW, What makes it a treble jig? A slip Jig? A slide?

Don


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: alison
Date: 31 Jan 02 - 11:58 PM

I'm assuming its a slip jig... 9/8

if so "Butterfly", "Rocky Road to Dublin"

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: DonMeixner
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 12:20 AM

Thanks Alison, but down in OZ wouldn't that be in 8/9 time? And played backwards too?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: alison
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 12:26 AM

makes it more interesting Don........ but the dancers do tend to fall over... *grin*

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 02:09 AM

Is this the dancers's treble jig ie. A slightly slower jig for demonstrating complicated steps? I think "The Orange Rogue" would qualify but you'd be better off asking on a newsgroup or maybe the IRTRAD mailing list at IRTRAD-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 06:18 AM

Drops of Brandy is a good slip jig, also The Foxhunters Jig.
A standard jig is in 6/8 time giving two groups of three notes to the rhythm, this also can be counted as two groups of triplets with a count of two beats to the bar. A triple jig or slip jig has THREE groups of three notes and can also be counted as three beats to a bar with three groups of triplets.
translating it into Mouth Music a standard jig would be
Diddly diddly / Diddly diddly / Diddly diddly / Diddly diddly / whereas a slip jig takes the pattern
Diddly diddly diddly / Diddly diddly diddly / Diddly diddly diddly / Diddly diddly diddly /
I hope that makes sense.
Quack
GtD


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Donal Lunny (escaped from Drumcree thread)
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 06:22 AM

Does that mean we now call slides "quadruple jigs"?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 07:11 AM

Agree Foxhunters Jig, also Another Jig Will Do, and Hunt the Hare.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 07:49 AM

Thank you to every one. I knew I'd get good advice. Geoff, that made perfect sense.

Don


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,The Ghost Of Willie Clancy
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 07:58 AM

Also "An Phis Fliuch" ... get some gaeilgeoir to translate that for you ...


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: weepiper
Date: 01 Feb 02 - 02:40 PM

Am Phis Fhliuch...and don't ask yer granny what it means...


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 05:09 AM

Don,

Beware a treble jig is not the same as a triple jig. Check with the dancers or their teacher.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 09:57 AM

Best of my understanding, trebble jibs are 6/8 played slowly and NOT slip jigs which are a whole different kettle of fish.

Trebble jids are used to accompany the Heavy Jig (as opposed to the Light or Single Jig). the Heavy Jig is a lot slower (about 50 BPM) than the other Jigs and is danced in Heavy Shoes. Usually, the Heavy Jig is the first Hard Shoe Dance a beginner learns (next to traditional sets).

One of the more popular trebble jigs down in New Orleans is what we call "Feet of Flames" or the composer Ron Hardiman calls "breakout" from Michael Flately's Lord of the Dance a clip with the B part befor the A part can be found at http://ubl.artistdirect.com/cgi-bin/ramstream?file=~ppp-475124/0027112_0106_00_0002.ra or do a Google for Lord of the Dance Breakout

If anyone has transcribed this in midi or abc I'd love to get it.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 01:34 PM

I play relatively frequently for step dancers- so I have tune suggestions and some corrections about information posted above.

The last post is correct- treble jigs are the same thing as a "double jig"- (e.g. Kesh Jig, Swallowtail etc) but danced at a slower tempo. Jigs danced in light shoes are referred to by step dancers as "light jigs" and played at about 116 beats per minute.

Treble jigs are danced at two tempos: 86-92 bpm for "traditional speed" (beginner, and some novice dancers) and 73 bpm for more advanced dancers (novice and higher in competition).

If you are playing for less advanced dancers at the 86-92 bpm speed, some easy jigs are Tobin's Favorite, Connaughtman's Rambles or Irishman's Heart to the Ladies. If you are at the slower tempo, Irishman's Heart still works pretty well...

I heartily recommend that you practice with a metronome and use it when you are playing with the dancers. Melody is less important than keeping a steady rhythm, especially with younger, relatively inexperienced dancers who may be unable to adjust if you vary the tempo(unintentionally of course) ;-) Also, try to get a confirmation on the tempo from the dance teacher. Steps choreographed for a slow treble jig won't work at the faster speed and vice versa

Irish step dance lingo is confusing to musicians- I wrote an entire article on this for a now defunct magazine for Irish dancers- The article entitled "What's a Light Jig?".

To recap: dancer says: light jig musician plays: jig or double jig at 116 bpm

dancer says: double jig or treble jig musician says: that's slow! and plays at 92 or 73 as directed

dancer says: single jig Donal Lunny adlibs: quadruple jig (I love it!)

musician plays: single jig or slide at about 116 (that would be like Off She Goes, Smash the Windows or O'Keefe's slide)

If you're not sure how to differentiate them: *double jigs go "pineapple, pineapple" while single jigs go "humpty-dumpty" in rhythm

dancer says: slip jig musician plays: slip jig (9/8 time) Like Drops of Brandy, Foxhunters, the Butterfly, Dever the Dancer etc.

dancer says: reel (and dances in light shoes) musician plays: reel at 113-120 bpm depending on level of dancer and if it is solo or a figure dance- advanced dancers go slower than beginners or figure dances

dancer says: treble reel and dances in hard shoes musician plays: reel (not as slow as 113)

Any more questions?

Sharon (fiddle, dance-mom)


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 02 Feb 02 - 04:40 PM

One more thing

Someone recommended St. Patrick's Day and the Orange Rogue for treble jigs. Caution! Don't use either of those tunes for a treble jig. Both are categorized as set dances- They have an irregular number of bars compared to a typical jig, usually in the "b" part of the tune (referred to by dancers as "the set")

St. Patrick's Day has specific steps which are executed the same way by all step dancers, and the Orange Rogue, Drunken Gauger and other jig time set dances have steps that are individually choreographed by Irish dance teachers to fit the melody and extra bars in the tunes.

Again, hope that's helpful Sharon


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 03:13 AM

That's a really useful summary, Sharon! 'Twas me that mentioned the Orange Rogue and I hadn't stopped to count the bars but I've usually heard it played at about the speed you suggest for treble jigs.

The only experience I've had playing for Irish step dancers is when dancers turn up at a session and request a dance. I've had a bit more experience playing for English step dancers and can confirm that you usually have to play slower than you would imagine.

Do you have any links you could share?


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Feb 02 - 12:46 PM

I want to thank all of you for this fine bit of research and information. Last night I listen to the canned music the Butler Dance School used at a show we played. I sat there singing "Pineapple, pineapple", "Diddley Diddley" while people sat staring at me for every jig they used. I copied this thread to our fiddler and he extends his thanks aswell. This is the kind of stuff the Mudcat excells at.

The bad part is this. The dancers don't seem to know what music they heard. I'd ask what the second jig was and the girls would say, "Its The tripple jig", "No" I's say, Whats the name of the jig?" and they'd all say '"The tripple jig." So I'd ask the instructor and he'd say, It's on the CD and open up the box and pull out a burned CD and say "Yup, Thats the Tripple Jig."

Then I looked at the CD and the label said:

The Faerie Reel

#1 Hornpipe

#2 Hornpipe

2 Hand reel

4 Hand reel

and so on. How can I win here???

Don


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Sharon
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:26 PM

Don,

I don't know what to tell you. Some dancers and instructors are as enlightened as you mentioned- they know "THE reel" or "The light jig", while others actually know tunes.

Some of the dance practice cd's don't even list tunes- they have what you mentioned "hornpipe" etc. Some dance cds that DO tell you names include: Sets and Solos (Vol 1 & 2) Step in Time One More Time (Culkin School of Irish Dance) played by Brendan Mulvilhill, Billy McCommisky and Zan McLeod


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Sharon
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM

Oops, I hit the post it button too soon.

The cds I mentioned were just typical dance cds but they do list the tune names:

Sets and Solos Vol 1 & @

Kathleen Lavin - Step in Time

Billy McCommisky, Brendan Mulvilhill, Zan McLeod and Culkin School of Dance - One More Time

The last is unusual in that they have tunes at slower speeds than dancers normally use, as well as typical speeds, so that they can practice the steps more slowly. Interesting concept...

Manitas- The best link I can suggest for anything about Irish dancing is this: http://www.geocities.com/aer_mcr/irdance/index.html

There are links to basic background info, dance school and teachers, vendors (including sources for these cds, which otherwise would be hard to find.

Sharon


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: musicmick
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:48 PM

I dont know what instrument you play but if you play guitar, mandolin or 5 string banjo, you will find ROCKY ROAD TO DUDLIN (as it appears in Allen's Irish Fiddler) the easiest to finger. The three note phrases (they sound like triplets to the ear but, for reasons of convenience, they're written as 1/8 notes) can be gracefully slured with a simple hammer and pull-off motion.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Sharon
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 04:13 PM

Yes, Rocky Road to Dublin is easy... but it's a SLIP jig- not what you need for a dancer's treble jig.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 06:56 PM

Luckily I will be playing rhytymn guitar. We have a very fine fiddler who will handle the rest of the melody needs.

But don't you think being told

".... Oh Thats The Hornpipe..."

is a little like being told

".... Oh That soup? It's Du Jour..."

I recently learned that The Hornpipe is "Off to California"

Don


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 07:38 PM

Yeah- you'd think people who have such an intimate relationship with the notes & rhythm would have a little more appreciation for the tunes themselves.

The liner notes to one of James Kelly's cds mentions a fiddler that played Miss McLeod's reel all day for a feis. At least nowadays the feis musicians change tunes, even if the dancers don't know it ;-)

Sharon


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:57 AM

If you're going to be absolutely impartial to the dancers you should play the same tunes for each one. On Dartmoor the musicians used to sit with their backs to the dancers in stepping competitions although I dare say they could tell the dancer by the sound.


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Confusion reigns
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 04:06 AM

Of course, "Off to California" is also played commonly as a reel ...

Now you'll need introducing, off course, to our friend the Triple Hornpipe ... thon's a boy who'll really fry your head!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: DonMeixner
Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:46 AM

In American Old Time Music very ofte a Hornpipe is played as a reel. But again that has tp do with regionality and ancestory as much as anything.

Don


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,Roger O'K
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:04 AM

Sharon G, you're a star.

The schism between dancers and musicians seems to be worse than any of the religion things, and I'm glad that there's someone out there trying to bridge it.

It kills me, but I can't do much about it myself because I'm a mediocre piper with far-too-erratic rhythm to even dare to play for dancers.

I once tried to bridge the gap by giveing a solo dancer here a tape of decent quality music (Liam O'Flynn et al.) to replace the crap tapes that she used to use for the odd performance here in Belgium. I even used a metronome to make sure I was giving her pieces at the right tempos.

She thanked me sincerely, but at her subsequent performances she was still using the rubbish she was familiar with!


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: An easy Treble Jig
From: GUEST,SharonG
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:53 PM

Thank you for the kind words- I love working with the dancers, though the tempos for slow dances are really tough.

It is funny ..... the dancers I work with always use certain step dance cd's to practice to and perform to if they aren't in a show with live musicians (rarely). Some of the step dance music is okay- rhythmic but kind of lifeless musically, some atrocious, and only a few of the practice recordings I've heard are really worth listening to musically. I would recommend the Brendan Mulvilhill, Billy McCommisky, Zan McLeod recording - One More Time for great musicianship.

Sharon


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