BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon

Subject: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: GUEST,Geoff
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 05:58 AM

Is there any reason to ever use a semi colon?

To my mind it's outdated and useless.

Take this page. As far as I'm concerned, all their examples could be better written with the use of a comma or full stop (period).

Or am I being a philistine?

Geoff

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:37 AM

This has got to be the dullest thread ever!

What the #$*&! is happening here?

Are we to be taken over by geriatric pedants?

This site was supposed to be about MUSIC

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Mike Byers
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:39 AM

It's fairly useful in writing when you'd like to indicate a pause longer than the pause indicated by a comma but shorter than the pause indicated by a period. But like any other tool in the writer's kit, it can be used either for good or ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 08:25 AM

Beginning a paragraph with 'Or' is probably your worst crime, Geoff! Seriously, though, I like to bung in a semi-colon where I can, supposedly to try and keep them alive.

We discuss music by using the accepted rules of English grammar for written English, Guest, so piss off, you anonymous teenage gobshite.

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 08:41 AM

Is there any reason to ever split an infinitive?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 09:09 AM

Up in the left corner the heading says "Lyrics, forum and chat." Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 09:36 AM

Abandon the semicolon? Forbid it, Muses!! It is, when well used, a powerful tool; it answers a need; it adds to typographical beauty; it carries more information in less space than any mark devised by man, outside the "full stop" or period; and it trains the mind in subtlety. I prithee, sir, seek a fruitful task on which to turn your hand!! Your current endeavour is wanton, and threatens woe to all the children of the mother tongue!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 09:57 AM

In the examples given, I think a period (full stop) would work pretty well. I do occasionally use semicolons, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 10:29 AM

Yes Murray, there are good reasons to occasionally split an infinitive!
The firstone that comes to mind, is to gently irritate certain people! :0)

And that reminds me, one important use of the semi-colon is to distinguish a wink-and-grin ;o) from a common-or-garden grin :o)

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: DougR
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:14 PM

I think semi-colons are good;however,they can be over used, I suppose.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: PaulM
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:45 PM

The fact that the semi colon is a 'lower case' (non shift) key on computers / typewriters suggests that it did once have some use.

If keyboards didn't have to be designed with past legacies in mind, I expect it'd be a CTRL ALT SHIFT thing now.

I'd agree with Geoff. I never use them

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:45 PM

1. One should use a semicolon between closely related independent clauses not joined by a coordinating conjunction.
2. Use a semicolon between independent clauses linked with a conjunctive adverb or transitional expression.
3. A semicolon may be used between independent clauses containing internal punctuation even when a coordinating conjunction links the clauses. 4. Use a semicolon between items in a series containing internal punctuation.
5. Do not use a semicolon to separate a subordinate clause from the rest of the sentence.

On the other hand, I have a friend who has no choice but to use a semicolon because he had to have part of his colon surgically removed.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:48 PM

But of course don't forget to put a "/" in when it's needed, such as following "not."

sigh. -- Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

I dont mind semi-colons, they are somewhat half assed but,use them if you have them. It's adverbs that I hate!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

the semi-colon indicates phrasing and continuity in speech,(with a touch of inflection).....If you were to use a period (full stop) in all cases, the passage read aloud would seem choppy and dull.

It originated to fill a need in a complex language, and I hate to see the yuonger generation (especially on the internet/WWW) eliminating so many of the clues to the meaning and flow of their thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 01:23 PM

PaulM:

Your typewriter example is ingenious but wrong. Your argument assumes that the typewriter keyboard is designed to be convenient, whereas it was designed specifically to be inconvenient! No kidding!

The first typewriters had a good deal of lag in them, and the early typists (when the machine was first being developed) jammed up the machines frequently by typing too fast. The QWERTY keyboard we use today was designed specifically to slow down the typist so that (s)he wouldn't jam things up!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 01:35 PM

The Dvorak keyboard is far more efficient and much faster for a skilled typist who is used to it. I'd make the switch were it not for the learning curve and the fact that I'm not the only one who uses this keyboard.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Ringer
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM

Personally, I don't care if nobody else uses semicolons, I shall continue to use them, would the non-users thereof please ensure that they close their sentence-structures with something because strings of phrases strung together with commas, as some posters post, are very confusing

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM

Well put, Bald Eagle!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Ferrara
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 03:17 PM

I love semicolons, judicially used, and use them even in my conversation. Ask anyone -- my normal way of talking is loaded with any or all of the following: independent clauses linked with conjunctive adverbs or transitional expressions; independent clauses containing internal punctuation even when a coordinating conjunction links the clauses; and/or items in a series containing internal punctuation.

Rita

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 03:55 PM

A semicolon is best used to link two phrases that grammatically could be separate sentences, but that need to be linked together somehow to show their proper meaning. For example:

I don't care what the dictionary says; I like the word "irregardless."

If you were to replace the semicolon with a period, it would give the impression that there are two thoughts here, each of which could stand on its own. That would give the impression that in general I don't care what the dictionary says. Actually, that's not true: In general, I do care what the dictionary says, but this case is an exception. To get the proper meaning for the first part, you have to interpret it in light of the second part.

In my experience, grammar books often give poor examples of the principles they are trying to teach.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: kendall
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:40 PM

IRREGARDLESS!!! Slowly I turn...step by step. Please dont ever use that awful non word where I can here it!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:48 PM

"Here, here", Kendall...*wink*

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Peg
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 07:56 PM

I like semi-colons. I am also a fan of using two spaces between sentences. I do not, however, like to use an extra comma in a grouping, unless the pause is needed for emphasis, e.g. "She handed him her gloves, her hat, and a bottle of champagne."

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 04 Feb 02 - 08:13 PM

When sentences are used as examples of usage, one should not take them literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:20 AM

Jim, Your reasoning and example are pretty clear.

'A semicolon is best used to link two phrases that grammatically could be separate sentences, but that need to be linked together somehow to show their proper meaning. For example:

I don't care what the dictionary says; I like the word "irregardless."'

But the meaning of this sentance would be clear (IMHO) if you used a comma rather than a semi-colon. What's the objection to this?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:43 AM

Sure, the meaning would be clear, but in standard Engish, you don't use commas that way. I guess some rules are arbitrary, just like the rules of spelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:03 AM

The semicolon gets a lot of use in poetry and, of course, lyrics. It coordinates independent clauses of a compound sentence, to quote Webster's, or links independent thought lines of a lyric, to put it into a form familiar to lyricists. It is true that semicolons make no never mind to the new generation, but, of course, their language is incomprehensible anyway- take rap. On second thought, don't.
Crazy Eddie, your sentence with the semicolon makes me pause fractionally; if you placed a comma there, the tendency is to race on and perhaps lose some of the meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Haruo
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:13 AM

Yes, and there should be a few more hyphens, too. And judiciously used. As well as judicially, when appropriate. Semi-colons (note hyphen) are also de rigueur in finishing off numerical Unicode character aliases; or whatever they're called.

Liland

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Crazy Eddie
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:18 AM

Thanks Jim, for the reply. The trouble is, if you haven't been formally taught these rules, the more subtle ones are not so easy to pick up.

Dicho, you say:
"Crazy Eddie, your sentence with the semicolon makes me pause fractionally; if you placed a comma there, the tendency is to race on and perhaps lose some of the meaning."
Surely the comma should make you pause; if I wanted you to race on, I wouldn't have used a punctuation mark!

Is it a question of degree in a case like this?

(I've used a semicolon above. I could have used a full-stop, (or a query) but I think the semicolon makes the connection between the clauses clearer. Is this usage correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Hrothgar
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 07:26 AM

Are they handy for bowel resections?

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 07:29 AM

This may not be music related, but, I'm learning something here. (I dont remember learning about semi-colons in school) The school I went to was so sub- standard, you could get a letter if you knew what the letter was.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Amos
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 08:28 AM

Eddie:

Your usage is correct; you have joined two independent clauses so that they relate clearly by using a semi-colon, and have also informed a reader as to a sense of timing in taking your sentence in. I've done the same here. If you look at the commas, periods and semi-colons in this paragraph, the differences should be clear.

Hope this helps,

Amos

Subject: I'll have your semi colons if you don't want 'em!
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 08:40 AM

If you don't like 'em, and you can manage without, then do so; but don't suggest that my way is wrong because yours is right!

And if you're not sure about a rule, recast your sentence to avoid the problem; but if you want to break the rules, you have to know how to use them in the first place.

Steve

P.S. Kendall, do you hate adverbs, or do you really hate adverbs?!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Snuffy
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 09:26 AM

Adjectives are worst; they're mostly lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Ringer
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 10:24 AM

I thought that was statistics. But we applaud your careful use of the semi-colon, Snuffy.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 11:33 AM

I tend to usae dashes, but normally with the same role and timing as semi-colons, to inbducate a slightly lkonger pause and placing the ckause at a slight distance.

Would irregardless be supposed to have the same meaning as regardless? Surely it should imply the opposite (cf resolute and irresolute, responsible and irresponsible).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:24 PM

It's a solecism, McG, formed by applying the style of words like "irresolute" and "irresponsible" to "regardless"; no doubt we could make up a few of our own: how about "irreknown", "irrecognisable"?

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:47 PM

But does adding the ir do the same to regardless as it does to resolute? Someone who is irresolute is not resolute. So if some one does something irregardless of danger, does that mean that they are doing it while taking significant note of the danger involved? If that's what it means it might be quite a useful addition to the language, indicating a higher degree of bravery for example - but my impression is that people mean the same by irregardless as by regardless, and it seems a bit redundant.

Another word pair where the words are synomyms in spite of appearances is valuable and invaluable. It is a weird language we share.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

Such words as Artic partic u ly, nucula, oragutang, irregardless indicate a poor command of the language, or, a speech impediment or just plain laziness.When I hear someone butchering the language with such non-words, I tune them out. Language was created to allow us to communicate; there are rules; they were created to prevent everyone from speaking his/her own lingo, and, being incomprehensible to others. If this makes me a grammar Nazi, so be it. We haff vays to make you tok.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:14 PM

Parkes, the fun with irregardless is due to the -less at the end, which comes around and bites the irr- at the beginning.
Irrecognizable is approved by no less an authority than the OED and has a history in print of over 150 years. I notice that you spell recognize with an "s" in spite of the OED's authority over the English language (just poking fun, I am aware of the problems in English social history and the intentional use and teaching of non-oxbridge language by most people).

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:25 PM

Yes, but irrecognizable means the opposite of recognizable. It's a useful word, without any obvious synonyms.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM

Interesting topic. For people who speak in short sentences, colons and semi-colons are probably not much of an issue. I know I've written a couple of sentences in Mudcat discussions that I've suggested people not try to diagram; those are the sentences that need semi-colons. For more information (and some pretty good examples) you might want to find the Harbrace College Handbook . Hardest class I ever took at the university was History and Development of the English Language. You'd think it would be easy, a class about your first language, right? Au contraire!

I like your post, Don. It's an excellent example of how complicated our grammar is today, when we now choose to add html to it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM

I was looking for a book at a used store when I noticed the owner throwing books into a garbage bin. He said that they were things that never would sell. Among them were several books on language, and one was the Harbrace College Handbook. Another was the Prentice-Hall handbook for Writers. Both are useful, and well-written as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM

I don't believe anyone has mentioned the semi-colon's use as "the comma's big brother" in a complex series.

Thus, in a series (of course normally set off with commas) where one of the series-members contains a comma, the "big brother" is called in to control the series, while the "internal" comma remains in place and doesn't cause confusion.

"I gave her expensive cut flowers; imported liquor; and, only on occasion, candy."

If the semi-colons were shifted back to commas, the result would be VERY muddy:
"I gave her flowers, liquor, and, only on occasion, candy." Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:58 PM

Oh, oh! I left out "expensive cut" and "imported" in my last example. But it's a second-rate sentence, so it's about second-rate gifts, I guess.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Desdemona
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 04:22 PM

I write a great deal and use them pretty often; they serve a function somewhere between a comma(not emphatic enough), "and" (often an unnecessary extra word that makes a sentence "sound" clumsy), and a full stop when you haven't necessarily completed your point.

And I think it's wonderful that we can become impassioned, nay, even VIOLENT about proper punctuation---Strunk & White would be so pleased!

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM

Desdemona said:

And I think it's wonderful that we can become impassioned, nay, even VIOLENT about proper punctuation---Strunk & White would be so pleased!

I just knew we were going to get into traditional theological argument, with citations to Holy Writ!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 05:01 PM

Uncle DaveO, another good teaching example- These are my favorite flowers: violets, for their sentimentality; roses, for their color; and buttercups, for their cheerfulness.
On the other hand, this advice to writers from author Cornelia Evans: "If a writer wishes to use an informal narrative style he should avoid semicolons as much as possible. Semicolons denote a longer break in the sentence than commas and they may slow down the reader unnecessarily."

Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
From: kendall
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 05:45 PM

What a thread! "To BOLDLY go where no man has gone before" "You've got mail" AAAAARRRRGGGG!!