Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Bill D Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:01 PM isn't this–different from this—? (side by side — –) n dash & m dash, or dash & hyphen...I get either by using a little program called AllChars, which allows access to any character using hotkeys and keyboard shortcuts... æ œ Æ ‡ ¶ it is fun, free and useful |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Feb 02 - 04:31 PM There doesn't seem to be a way of putting in a dash on a keyboard, so a single hyphen is generally used instead. Gimme a dash key, and I'd use it by choice. But not a double hyphen, which is ugly to my eyes. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Feb 02 - 03:52 PM Stilly River Sage, you didn't add that the style editing continues long after the degree. Different technical journals have different formats. My colleagues and I often would format our papers for a particular journal to save on rewrite. The bibliography was a real pain in the ass, making certain that every colon, semicolon, comma and period was in the right place. And did the journal require italics or quotation marks? Some journals used the style manual from hell; getting the paper into print sometimes was more time-consuming than the research itself. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: DMcG Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:46 PM Split infinitives: I read some years ago that in Latin it is impossible to split an infinitive because it is simply part of the way the verb is conjugated. Consequently, splitting infinitives implied you did not appreciate Latin, which in turn implied you were ill-educated. Consequently worrying about split infinitives is no more than snobbishness! Anyone who is a Latin scholar is entitled to shoot this down :-) Semicolons are a different matter - they are concerned with the lengths of pauses and changes of voice pitch as sentences start and end - in fact, they change mere words into music! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: 53 Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:28 PM Is that the same thing as the small intestine? |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:00 PM Dealing with this from the academic position can get ridiculous. In writing a thesis or dissertation (here in the US, at any rate) one must follow the style manual to the letter and there are actually people whose job it is to measure margins and look to see if your dash is an "m" in length or if your lines are exactly double-spaced. They aren't looking at the content, mind you, unless perhaps to comment that there are too many personal pronouns. I had to get a note from the chair of my committee to take to the graduate school saying that the number of times "I" appeared in the document was entirely appropriate to the subject. In addition to the style manuals (I usually use the MLA--Modern Language Association) that is used in liberal arts, but have more recently had to switch to the Chicago Manual of Style. And then there's the book by Kate Turabian that is just about writing theses and dissertations. It can take longer to get the darned thing into the proper format than it took to do the original thinking and writing to get the degree! SRS
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Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 14 Feb 02 - 09:29 AM McGrath of Harlow said: My finger slipped in my last post - what I meant to say was that with irr being an eroded in, "irrecognizable" is really a way of writing "inrecognizable." (And I suppose the dash in that last sentence could be seen as taking the place of a semicolon. Couldn't have been a comma - I suppose it could have been a full stop, at a stretch. I prefer a dash. Looks better on the page.) If you look, there is NO dash in either of those quoted paragraph. What is there in each case is a hyphen with spaces before and after. A dash in printing (referred to as an em dash) is a longer horizontal bar than a hyphen, and is neither led nor followed by a space. In typing, the long dash bar is rendered as two hyphens, with no spaces before or after. The function of the hyphen is to join two words or word parts into one expression, as in "a dark-green color". The function of the dash, on the other hand, is to separate sections of a sentence--sometimes as a parenthetical indicator, sometimes to indicate a breaking off of a thought. Dave Oesterreich
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Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Steve Parkes Date: 07 Feb 02 - 10:25 AM Well, ones hates to be pedantic, but elision can apply to consonants or syllables as well as vowels. I have to admit, though, that "erode" is a much more suitable word in this context, or even "corrode"! Steve |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:01 AM "Ir- is the assimilated form in Latin of the prefix in- before initial letter r, used in the same way in English (and much more frequent than in-) in words such as irrational," as well as irrecoverable, irreligion and irrecognizable. OED
Precisely.
"Elided"? No, that means leaving out a vowel; in this case it's a consonent that's left out. I suppose that dictionary definition above indicates that "assimilated" is the correct technical term. I think "eroded" is a fair enough word to refer to the process by which we knock the rough edges off words that are tricky to pronounce. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: GUEST,Boab Date: 07 Feb 02 - 04:19 AM Semi-colons in written language are like grace-notes in music, or triples on a drum---[dash!!] ---the meaning of the script, the melody or the rhythm are perfectly whole and functional without them, but not always as pleasing to the eye/ear as when they are judiciously used. Sentences?--One of the most prolific writers alive today truly murders the cherished regulations of the "academics"; have you ever read Stephen King? |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Steve Parkes Date: 07 Feb 02 - 03:29 AM In my country we say "elided", McG! Steve |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:43 PM Inrecognizable does not yet exist as a word, but if you use it enough, someone will pick it up and run with it- much like our modern word proactive. What is an "eroded" in? Both are honorable prefixes. "Ir- is the assimilated form in Latin of the prefix in- before initial letter r, used in the same way in English (and much more frequent than in-) in words such as irrational," as well as irrecoverable, irreligion and irrecognizable. OED |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:53 PM My finger slipped in my last post - what I meant to say was that with irr being an eroded in, "irrecognizable" is really a way of writing "inrecognizable."
(And I suppose the dash in that last sentence could be seen as taking the place of a semicolon. Couldn't have been a comma - I suppose it could have been a full stop, at a stretch. I prefer a dash. Looks better on the page.) |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:12 PM Irrecognizable and unrecognizable both appeared in written form in the 19th C. When they were coined is unknown. The "ir-" in the sense of not goes back at least to the 14th century. "Un-" is probably as old, but I leave the detection to the lexicographers. Thread creep, anyway. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Desdemona Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:29 AM Even worse----occasionally I've actually heard "irregardlessly"!!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:26 AM Quite right about unrecognizable as a synonym for the irr form. That occurred to me after I had posted it. Dumb.
I gather that the irr form is an eroded way of saying in, with words beginning with r. So it's really "unrecognizable".
Which doesn't do anything to explain irregardless... I think it might be that people sometimes like the sound of a rolled r as a way to emphasise a word, and if you do that to regardless, it can come out as irregardless. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Desdemona Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:05 AM Of course, sometimes a complete disregard for the conventions can work brilliantly; think of William Faulkner or James Joyce, had they observed the conventions! On the other hand, the currently vexing common practice (at least in the US) is the willy-nilly conversion of nouns into verbs: "parenting", "mentoring", etc. Most annoying. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: kendall Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:49 AM I chowda the language on purpose. I do know better, so, it is not coming from ignorance. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Steve Parkes Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:57 AM Irony, Kendall, irony! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: kendall Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:25 AM If he would of...if I wouldn't have...he was like, and then she was like... I simply cant listen to these oral cripples! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Steve Parkes Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:15 AM I think all these misuses of language come from people not reading. We learn to speak by listening to thosae around us; only later do we learn to read. People who don't read enough will never learn the proper use and usefulness of puctuation, and will miss out on most of the fun you can have with language. Steve P.S. Of course, if you'de read The Catcher in the Rye at an impressionable age, you would of picked up some bad habits! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:11 AM wotthehell wotthehell say comma boss comma capital i apostrophe m getting tired of being joshed about my punctuation period capital t followed by he idea seems to be that capital i apostrophe m ignorant where punctuation is concerned period capital n followed by o such thing semi colon the fact is that the mechanical exigencies of the case prevent my use of all the characters on the typewriter keyboard period capital i apostrophe m doing the best capital i can under difficulties semicolon and capital i apostrophe m grieved at the unkindness of the criticism period please consider that my name is signed in small caps period archy period capital a rchie was a giant cockroach who jumped about on the keys of a typewriter period capital h e would climb on the framework and cast himself with all his force upon a key comma head downward comma and his weight was just sufficient to operate the machine comma one slow letter after another period capital h e had a great deal of difficulty operating the shift mechanism period capital i apostrophe m his reincarnation in the computer age and capital i find things somewhat easier because capital i can jump on a key called enter to change to the next line period The poem is from archy and mehitabel by don marquis and the text that follows is written with apologies to don marquis comma archy and mehitabel the cat period |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Crazy Eddie Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:03 AM McGrath of Harlow: "Yes, but irrecognizable means the opposite of recognizable. It's a useful word, without any obvious synonyms." I haven't got a dictionary to hand, but isn't unrecognisable in common usage, as an antonym of recognisable? Where does irrecognisable come in? |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Feb 02 - 09:12 PM Strunk and White have been largely devalued in English classes in the last decade. That little book that has such influence was, I believe, originally written as an essay for students in (duh. . .) either Strunk or White's class, has been treated as received wisdom for far too long. (One wrote it, the other came along and edited it). I think the New Yorker or perhaps the New York Times had a role in the acceptance of the book. I don't remember the whole story. Those with a burning curiosity about grammar and other composition questions might want to visit Bartleby for a large number of reference books online, or poke around in a place like the Guide to Grammar and Writing that is maintained by an English professor in Hartford, Connecticut. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Desdemona Date: 05 Feb 02 - 06:09 PM These posts will be graded for correct punctuation. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: kendall Date: 05 Feb 02 - 05:45 PM What a thread! "To BOLDLY go where no man has gone before" "You've got mail" AAAAARRRRGGGG!! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Feb 02 - 05:01 PM Uncle DaveO, another good teaching example- These are my favorite flowers: violets, for their sentimentality; roses, for their color; and buttercups, for their cheerfulness. On the other hand, this advice to writers from author Cornelia Evans: "If a writer wishes to use an informal narrative style he should avoid semicolons as much as possible. Semicolons denote a longer break in the sentence than commas and they may slow down the reader unnecessarily." |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 05 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM Desdemona said: And I think it's wonderful that we can become impassioned, nay, even VIOLENT about proper punctuation---Strunk & White would be so pleased! I just knew we were going to get into traditional theological argument, with citations to Holy Writ! Dave Oesterreich
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Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Desdemona Date: 05 Feb 02 - 04:22 PM I write a great deal and use them pretty often; they serve a function somewhere between a comma(not emphatic enough), "and" (often an unnecessary extra word that makes a sentence "sound" clumsy), and a full stop when you haven't necessarily completed your point. And I think it's wonderful that we can become impassioned, nay, even VIOLENT about proper punctuation---Strunk & White would be so pleased! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:58 PM Oh, oh! I left out "expensive cut" and "imported" in my last example. But it's a second-rate sentence, so it's about second-rate gifts, I guess. Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM I don't believe anyone has mentioned the semi-colon's use as "the comma's big brother" in a complex series. Thus, in a series (of course normally set off with commas) where one of the series-members contains a comma, the "big brother" is called in to control the series, while the "internal" comma remains in place and doesn't cause confusion. "I gave her expensive cut flowers; imported liquor; and, only on occasion, candy." If the semi-colons were shifted back to commas, the result would be VERY muddy: |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM I was looking for a book at a used store when I noticed the owner throwing books into a garbage bin. He said that they were things that never would sell. Among them were several books on language, and one was the Harbrace College Handbook. Another was the Prentice-Hall handbook for Writers. Both are useful, and well-written as well. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM Interesting topic. For people who speak in short sentences, colons and semi-colons are probably not much of an issue. I know I've written a couple of sentences in Mudcat discussions that I've suggested people not try to diagram; those are the sentences that need semi-colons. For more information (and some pretty good examples) you might want to find the Harbrace College Handbook . Hardest class I ever took at the university was History and Development of the English Language. You'd think it would be easy, a class about your first language, right? Au contraire! I like your post, Don. It's an excellent example of how complicated our grammar is today, when we now choose to add html to it. SRS |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:25 PM Yes, but irrecognizable means the opposite of recognizable. It's a useful word, without any obvious synonyms. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:14 PM Parkes, the fun with irregardless is due to the -less at the end, which comes around and bites the irr- at the beginning. Irrecognizable is approved by no less an authority than the OED and has a history in print of over 150 years. I notice that you spell recognize with an "s" in spite of the OED's authority over the English language (just poking fun, I am aware of the problems in English social history and the intentional use and teaching of non-oxbridge language by most people). |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: kendall Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM Such words as Artic partic u ly, nucula, oragutang, irregardless indicate a poor command of the language, or, a speech impediment or just plain laziness.When I hear someone butchering the language with such non-words, I tune them out. Language was created to allow us to communicate; there are rules; they were created to prevent everyone from speaking his/her own lingo, and, being incomprehensible to others. If this makes me a grammar Nazi, so be it. We haff vays to make you tok. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:47 PM But does adding the ir do the same to regardless as it does to resolute? Someone who is irresolute is not resolute. So if some one does something irregardless of danger, does that mean that they are doing it while taking significant note of the danger involved? If that's what it means it might be quite a useful addition to the language, indicating a higher degree of bravery for example - but my impression is that people mean the same by irregardless as by regardless, and it seems a bit redundant.
Another word pair where the words are synomyms in spite of appearances is valuable and invaluable. It is a weird language we share. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Steve Parkes Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:24 PM It's a solecism, McG, formed by applying the style of words like "irresolute" and "irresponsible" to "regardless"; no doubt we could make up a few of our own: how about "irreknown", "irrecognisable"? Steve |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Feb 02 - 11:33 AM I tend to usae dashes, but normally with the same role and timing as semi-colons, to inbducate a slightly lkonger pause and placing the ckause at a slight distance.
Would irregardless be supposed to have the same meaning as regardless? Surely it should imply the opposite (cf resolute and irresolute, responsible and irresponsible). |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Ringer Date: 05 Feb 02 - 10:24 AM I thought that was statistics. But we applaud your careful use of the semi-colon, Snuffy. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Snuffy Date: 05 Feb 02 - 09:26 AM Adjectives are worst; they're mostly lies. |
Subject: I'll have your semi colons if you don't want 'em! From: Steve Parkes Date: 05 Feb 02 - 08:40 AM If you don't like 'em, and you can manage without, then do so; but don't suggest that my way is wrong because yours is right! And if you're not sure about a rule, recast your sentence to avoid the problem; but if you want to break the rules, you have to know how to use them in the first place. Steve P.S. Kendall, do you hate adverbs, or do you really hate adverbs?! |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Amos Date: 05 Feb 02 - 08:28 AM Eddie: Your usage is correct; you have joined two independent clauses so that they relate clearly by using a semi-colon, and have also informed a reader as to a sense of timing in taking your sentence in. I've done the same here. If you look at the commas, periods and semi-colons in this paragraph, the differences should be clear. Hope this helps, Amos |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: kendall Date: 05 Feb 02 - 07:29 AM This may not be music related, but, I'm learning something here. (I dont remember learning about semi-colons in school) The school I went to was so sub- standard, you could get a letter if you knew what the letter was. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Hrothgar Date: 05 Feb 02 - 07:26 AM Are they handy for bowel resections? |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Crazy Eddie Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:18 AM Thanks Jim, for the reply. The trouble is, if you haven't been formally taught these rules, the more subtle ones are not so easy to pick up.
Dicho, you say:
Is it a question of degree in a case like this? (I've used a semicolon above. I could have used a full-stop, (or a query) but I think the semicolon makes the connection between the clauses clearer. Is this usage correct? |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Haruo Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:13 AM Yes, and there should be a few more hyphens, too. And judiciously used. As well as judicially, when appropriate. Semi-colons (note hyphen) are also de rigueur in finishing off numerical Unicode character aliases; or whatever they're called. Liland |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:03 AM The semicolon gets a lot of use in poetry and, of course, lyrics. It coordinates independent clauses of a compound sentence, to quote Webster's, or links independent thought lines of a lyric, to put it into a form familiar to lyricists. It is true that semicolons make no never mind to the new generation, but, of course, their language is incomprehensible anyway- take rap. On second thought, don't. Crazy Eddie, your sentence with the semicolon makes me pause fractionally; if you placed a comma there, the tendency is to race on and perhaps lose some of the meaning. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Jim Dixon Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:43 AM Sure, the meaning would be clear, but in standard Engish, you don't use commas that way. I guess some rules are arbitrary, just like the rules of spelling. |
Subject: RE: BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon From: Crazy Eddie Date: 05 Feb 02 - 12:20 AM Jim, Your reasoning and example are pretty clear. 'A semicolon is best used to link two phrases that grammatically could be separate sentences, but that need to be linked together somehow to show their proper meaning. For example:
I don't care what the dictionary says; I like the word "irregardless."'
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