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Subject: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Feb 02 - 06:03 AM This lengthy thread seems to have taken on a new life, and its too long for some people. So here is part two - and I'll put in a bunch of the recent posts to maintain continuity (for people who can't load the old one.): Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Jonny-boy Date: 23-Dec-01 - 11:04 AM Shop: Sally The images drawn up to me by this poem/song have always been so powerful that they stun me. A depiction of the progression of time and place when a new passion unfolds with references to the seasons, earth and sky as time moves on is amazing and universally human. Love imagined, gained and lost with respect to those places and points in time is brilliant and real. A poet, dreamer and admirer, who blinded by the physical beauty of his infatuation, tries to super-impose his own intellectual meanderings on one who seems either unable or unwilling to grasp the depth of his passion ends up frustrated and alone....I think the last line is only sadness.....
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,ulysses Date: 23-Dec-01 - 12:52 PM There was once a great alto sax player - I won't give his secret away by naming him - who was widely praised for his sensitivity in showing the inner meaning of the ballads he played. After he died, his wife confessed that he could never remember lyrics and never knew what the songs he played were about. Just sing the song.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23-Dec-01 - 04:27 PM Not knowing the words wouldn't necessarily mean he didn't understand what they were about. All depends what you mean by knowing a song. A lot of people sing songs, and are word perfect, without beginning to know them. I'm sure it works the other way too - people who can't remember a line, who know the song inside out
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: derrymacash Date: 23-Dec-01 - 06:44 PM And the dead arose and appeared to many ... (i.e. the sudden re-emergence of this thread).
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,no one important Date: 02-Feb-02 - 09:56 PM it's simply a song about "loss". The beauty in this poem/song is that the more that you read and the more that you analyze, the more you find that it just brings you back to the feelings that you felt when you first heard the song; when you knew nothing of what its "meaning" was. I understand the authors' motivations more clearly and I understand the historical setting/backround more clearly, but the emotion evoked was there before I knew any of this, and it is still there.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,no one important Date: 02-Feb-02 - 10:23 PM Sorry to continue on a long deceased thread. Sorry to chime in at all, in fact, but my fingers keep typing. I look at a sculpture and I say "Wow, that is one stunning sculpture." As I'm looking, I hear a historian explaining the significance of the subject, the history of the sculptor and a few interesting tidbits of information describing both the subject's and the sculptor's lives at the time that the piece was actually produced. It's all extremely interesting and I'm very happy to have learned all of this, because it certainly does create an understanding, of certain aspects of the work, that I didn't have before. But when it's all been said and done, I still look at the sculpture and say "Wow, that is one stunning sculpture." The work speaks for itself.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 02-Feb-02 - 11:12 PM My own interpretation of the "queen of hearts" and the "not making hay" lines is that they both reflect the idea of summer, and its symbolism possibly links them. In this bright warm season (of youth?) she is industriously at work, while he by contrast is not - though the sun is shining and the chance may not come again. This idea of passing time that is gone forever also finds resonance in the first line of the poem, which I BELIEVE (though I'm relying solely on memory so please only one person at a time shoot me down if I'm wrong)is that it's not on an "autumn" day but an AUGUST day (check a poetry anthology - songbooks can get it wrong too). If so, it changes the opening season (though in August summer is nearing its end) and the song then progresses through time to late autumn/early winter, as do his hopes. And finally there is no season evoked at all, only ghosts. This could also be an oblique reference to the difference in their ages. I actually once met a lady (now dead) who had known Hilda, and I'm annoyed now with my younger self for not plying her with questions! All I can remember of our one conversation on the subject (years ago) was that Hilda was a very charismatic character and many people besides the poet were attracted to her. The poem beautifully captures that elusive quality.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,misophist Date: 03-Feb-02 - 12:42 AM To paraphrase another Irishman, W B Yeats, Poetry is never about what the author puts in, it's about what the reader takes out. If poetry were nothing more that saying exactly what you mean, in the most powerful language at hand, All of Churchill's better speeches would be taught in the Universities. The key to true is ambiguity, mood and mode. Precise understanding? Shit.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03-Feb-02 - 09:15 AM I think you are likely right about that Bonnie, though almost everyone seems to sing autumn - autumn goes more naturally with the fallen leaf, but logically, what'd he be doing making hay (or not making hay) in the autumn? Dick Gaughan, I note, has it as August, and I think he'd have likely checked with the text. But a rapid trawl through Google seems to indicate that it's been recorded more often as autumn.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 03-Feb-02 - 10:24 AM I don't think the August vs autumn thing is that big of a deal. We know what the poet is getting at--summer is spent, the prospect of youthful love gone, that sort of thing. I do get the sense that the leaves are about to fall, ie that the end is perceived as being near, not yet arrived. So August works better in that sense, because the poet has had an epiphany about the girl--realizes that he is not to win her. The place he is in is one of poignant resignation to the fact that there is no romantic relationship between them. He isn't looking back in bitterness (that would be a winter season), he is still in the warmth of some sort of relationship with her, but knows it won't go beyond the point it has reached. I believe the "enchanted way" reference may be to the Grand Canal mentioned above, or to St Stephen's Green (Kavanaugh also mentions Grafton street). There is a strong sense of place in the poem, and that part of Dublin is the place. It is the most romantic part of the city really. Trinity is just north of the Grand Canal and Grafton Street ends at St Stephen's Green, and then as you walk through the green towards Leeson St, on the south end it empties out at least in the direction of the Grand Canal, where Kavanaugh's statue is found between Baggot and Leeson Sts. This is sort of an aisling poem in English, but it also was written more as a song, than a poem. The angel reference would be a reference to the aisling, rather than the speirbhean, I think. Trifling difference to some, but not if you are trying to evoke the aisling convention. Speirbhean would be more of a political allusion, rather than a romantic literary one, in the Irish sense. I do think the Queen of Hearts is a mawkishly sentimental throw away line. Kavanaugh, like every other poet, wasn't above or beyond a bad line here and there. It is a bit clumsy for the metre of the verse, I think. But he did well putting the verse to the tune, considering he was a much better poet than songwriter.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03-Feb-02 - 11:45 AM Shop: Diana I can't see that, in association with tart-making, there's anything sentimental about the phrase Queen of Hearts. Forget the Princess Diana stuff which may gets in the way of the phrase for a lot of people these days. (And note it's not "queen of my heart" - making it "of hearts" has quite different associations.) I know it's easy to use the term ironic to get away with anything, but in this context I definitely think there's an ironic tinge to it. Sardonic too. And that goes double for the last line, which I'd definitely read as having a self-mocking colouring.
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: Herga Kitty Date: 03-Feb-02 - 01:08 PM I heard,from a friend who knew Kavanagh, that Deirdre Manifold claimed to have been the inspiration for the poem. But he knew a lot of women... Kitty
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 03-Feb-02 - 07:24 PM BTW, the lovely Cantaria website has an MP3 of this by Donal Hegarty, and a lovely reference to this Raglan Road thread on Mudcat here: http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/raglan-road.html
Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Arkie Date: 04-Feb-02 - 01:28 AM Where I grew up, "making hay" meant you were getting somewhere", you were making progress. Conversely, not making hay, meant "getting nowhere", making no gain. I suspect that's what Kavanaugh intended. Nice to see this thread. I heard this song for the first time about a week ago and have been charmed by it. The other thread got too long, so I moved some of the later messages over here. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: michaelr Date: 04 Feb 02 - 11:26 PM The Mudcat at its best! I've been singing the song for years and am grateful for the depth of analysis found in this thread. It's also one of the most beautiful airs. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Fergie Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:35 PM The Enchanted Way is simply the name of a Street in Dublin it is close to Raglan Road. The Queen of Hearts is a referance to the fact that one of the women that Kavanage was involved with worked in a confectionery shop and served tarts (of the apple and strawberry variety) to the customers. The referance to "a quiet street where old ghosts meet" I have been told to that this is a referance to a street in Dublin which is reputed to have been a haunt for ghosts before street lighting came in, it certainly sounds more poetic than the name of the street Haddington Road. Fergus |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Feb 02 - 09:56 PM "The Enchanted Way is simply the name of a Street in Dublin" - not simply; Kavanagh takes hold of the name to put in the song, to mean something more.
It's the same as the way a skilled photographer will frame a picture to mean something - all the things in the picture are there is real life, but the way they are picked out, that's the art of it. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Fergie Date: 17 Feb 02 - 02:06 PM I agree entirely Mc Grath of Harlow but it is important that people ubderstand the context of the referances within the song if they wish to indulge in analysis. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST Date: 18 Feb 02 - 06:59 AM I always thought the Queen of Hearts making tarts was something to do with Alice in Wonderland! |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: shanty_steve Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:27 AM Exactly so, guest. In my opinion, "the queen of hearts ... I not making hay" couplet is not about her working in a bakery, and him being a farmer. Rather, making hay refers to the Irish saying "make hay while the sun shines", meaning that you should take advantage of opportunities to be productive, because those opportunites are fleeting. The queen of hearts section is adapted from "the queen of hearts baked some tarts" from Alice in Wonderland. By changing it to "still baking tarts", Kavangh is contrasting how the woman he loved got on with her life in a productive way, whereas he was overwhelmed by his love (or obsession) for her, so that his whole life stood still. I would disagree about the enchanged way referring to a specific street in Dublin. I've lived here for a long time, and I've never come across such a reference. Rather, I would suggest that the enchanted way refers to the magical feeling you get when you first get involved with someone special. Finally, a few weeks back, there was a debate over whether the first verse refers to an August day or an autumn's day. I would suggest that there isn't that much difference between the two. In Ireland, autumn officially starts on August 1st. Stephen |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Murray MacLeod Date: 18 Feb 02 - 07:39 AM Excellent analysis, Steve. FWIW, doing an advanced search on Google for "The Enchanted Way" and "Dublin" produces no evidence of a street known as "the Enchanted Way". Not that that actually proves anything, of course.... Murray
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Peter T. Date: 18 Feb 02 - 09:37 AM I don't think much of the Queen of Hearts line, as I have said, but one thing that could be said about the "tarts" line is that it links to the felt undercurrent of prostitution and desire throughout the song. "of a deep ravine, where can be seen, the worth of passion's pledge" is, to my mind, a reference to eyeing where students went with prostitutes for a few minutes near the university. First time I heard the song, I assumed it was about the poet and a prostitute he demeaned himself with -- all that streetwalking in the song -- (didn't know about the history) -- but the song has that feel about it. Or I have completely projected it into it, of course. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: shanty_steve Date: 18 Feb 02 - 10:36 AM One of the great thing about a poem such as this is that different people can take so many different things from it. And it doesn't really matter whether our interpretation is right our not, as long as it means something to us. For what its worth, my interpretation of the deep ravine line is that Kavanagh and Hilda never had a full blown affair, but he experienced enough of her to realise how fantastic such an affair might have been. They were on the edge of great passion, without ever actually falling in to it. BTW, it does seem clear that the woman in question was not a prostitute. See my posting of Nov 29th on the previous thread. Rgds, Stephen |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: M.Ted Date: 16 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM If you think of the woman in the song as a personification of fame, rather than as a real woman, then many of the oblique passages become clear--the song is about becoming enamoured with fame, writing to gain more fame, and having fame ultimately pass one by-- |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Jim from Cleveland Date: 18 Mar 02 - 06:53 PM A friend gave me a home made video of his camping trip with his wife and pets at the Lake. He played the Van Morrison version as background for this endeavor. I listen and listen and it brings tears to my eyes, over and over again. I am not certain of the why of these tears. Perhaps it is being able to identify with another individual who knows intimately what it feels like to have had the enchanted way turn into a dead end at one point in ones life......I must say that the tears are a peculiar mix of pain and joy and affirmation and wonderment. Is it the lyric? Morrisons delivery in such a soulful fashion? It took a while for me to learn the lyric as my mind does not comprehend the words initially when I hear a song. Rather I hear the passion and emotion and the tone and texture first. It took many replays to learn the words and their meaning. This thread helped immensely.......I sing it daily, unconsciously, over and over, like when I was an adolescent and sang my first Beatle songs over and over. That was 35 yrs ago. Thank you all for the input. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,A friend Date: 08 May 02 - 08:35 AM It is said that a star shines brightest before it falls. Anna Maria Horgan tragically died in the early Summer of her life one week ago. For the first time in many years, tears forced their way from my eyes upon hearing a most beautiful renditions of Raglan Road by the acclaimed musician Seamus Begley at her funeral mass. Like Kavanagh, Anna knew well the feeling of failed love. Yet in the last few months of her life, a major change occured in her life, Anna found love. For a potentially brilliant legal career Anna gave it all up to help local charities and study poetry. She must have surely pitied Kavanagh, a poet whom she so well liked. She must have felt his despair, echoed his anguish yet passed it off as but a fleeting moment. Grief or self-pity could not consume Anna, Anna consumed life, particularly in those last few wonderful months. 'Let grief be a falling leaf' - a line with which she would undoubtedly concur. Until I find my way to that 'quiet street, where old ghosts meet' - Anna, Rest in Peace. |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Comfort Date: 05 Aug 02 - 09:09 PM I like the Fergie definition of the meaning of this song. There are several good interpretations, and - as they say - "the truth lies somewhere in between", probably. Thanks folks. Helped me to gain some understanding. Have been quite intrigued by the song for a long time. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 06 Aug 02 - 09:24 AM Dublin Pub Life and Lore: An Oral History by Kevin C. Kearns is an interesting read for many reasons, not the least of which are varius discussions by publicans and patrons on the personalities and habits of Kavanagh, Behan, O'Brien and others, including the assertion by a barman who claims Kavanagh told him the woman in Raglan Road was the wife of a Government Minister, I think. I'll look through it again and see if it says anymore, but I'd recommend the book to all to read, with a tear for all that has been lost with change, especially the old recipe barrel aged Guiness that every old timer in the book rhapsodises about. 'The likes of which will not be seen (nor drunk! again.' |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:50 AM Well, I just reread this whole thread again! It is a classic one, to be sure. The thing that leaped out at me when reading it again after a long while away is the split of opinion between people who seem to be familiar with Irish poetry and traditional song in particular (and therefore tend to interpret it in that specific Irish cultural context) and those who have little to no knowledge of the Irish poetry and traditional song contexts, who read things into the poem/song from a more generic sentimental/romantic point of view. I prefer the Irish interpretations that value the bitterness, actually. Much more Irish that way! |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha. Date: 06 Aug 02 - 12:46 PM Good on you guest, your summing up should close this thread. Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST Date: 06 Aug 02 - 01:05 PM Queen of Hearts/I not making hay + their class differences. See the post that gives the synopsis on Kavanaugh's life from the biography by Antoinette Quinn in the previous thread. Also, I think we Irish-oriented folk decided that the cultural context argues for the interpretation of the August/June sort of age difference between the two. Kavanaugh was 35 when he came to Dublin, the lady who is the subject of the poem was a student at Trinity, hence just getting her start in life. I'm with Dick Gaughan's interpretation for August, not autumn on the age issue. Yet, I also disagree with him, as I think the seasonal metaphor works beautifully for the "poetry of place" in the poem, which is the area around Trinity College, St Stephen's Green, and the Grand Canal, of which Kavanaugh was so fond. In autumn when the leaves have changed and begin to fall, I don't think there is a more romantic place on earth. As to the end of the song--let me say this with an Irish sensibility. It is a much better song than it is a poem then, isn't it?
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 07 Aug 02 - 09:59 AM from the aforementioned 'Dublin Pub Life & Lore', the barman at McDaids for forty years or so, Paddy O'Brien, has this to say: "I was very fond of Paddy Kavanagh. People would say he was an old grouch, but he was anything but. He was a very alive, simple-minded man. And a genius. I didn't realise it at the time. No, I just saw him as a country man. But behind all that you had all this beautiful stuff. Do you know this poem 'Raglan Road'? Well, he wrote that for a woman. Her husband at the time was Minister for Education and his wife was a tall raven-haired lady and Kavanagh fell in love with her. And that ballad, 'Raglan Road', is to her. Now when you read that it's so full of passion and so full of Kavanagh. And I'd say to meself, 'Jesus, how the hell could he flow out with that sort of stuff?', the man that was always in here telling jokes and this sort of stuff...." |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,cindyc Date: 29 Aug 02 - 07:36 AM What a marvelous discussion this message board has provided!!! I've learned a lot about Patrick Kavanagh and "Raglan Road", especially I tried hard to figure out what it implies by "the queen of hearts still making tarts and I not making hay", " That I had wooed not as I should a creature made of clay.", "When the angel woos the clay he'd lose his wings at the dawn of day" Being a non-Irish, I haven't had chance to come accross any Irish ballads and poetries. The first time I heard Raglan Road it was recited by an Irishman I met in Shanghai not long ago. The words captured my heart instantly as they portrayed a broken heart and a lost love. Thanks to these who made the contribution |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,JTT Date: 29 Aug 02 - 12:01 PM Of course, Raglan Road is also part of an area popular with another kind of tart - perhaps one manufactured by some goddess-like Queen of Hearts ;) |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: shanty_steve Date: 30 Aug 02 - 05:55 AM Just to back up Bill Kennedy's contribution from 7th August, Hilda Moriarty, the subject of the poem, went on to marry Donagh O'Malley. O'Malley later became minister for education, and a very significant one at that. If memory serves, he was the person who introduced free secondary school education in Ireland. Stephen |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 30 Aug 02 - 12:29 PM From "Modern Irish Lives" - "Donough O'Malley (1921-68), politician, born Co Limerick...Fianna Fail TD for Limerick, 1961, Minister for Finance 1961-65, Minister for Health 1965, for Education 1966-68, ...introduced free secondary schooling, which was arguably the most important development of the century in Irish education...his cavalier and zestful attitude to life endeared him to many of his contemporaries, although it alienated senior members of FF and the civil service, who disliked O'Malley's disregard for conventional approaches to the formulation and announcement of public policy." The book does not cover the personal lives of individuals so there is no reference to his wife or the reason he died so relatively young. Re Kavanagh's love of the Royal Canal, Brian Behan tells an hilarious story about this, tho probably greatly exaggerated. Anyone interested? |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 30 Aug 02 - 12:45 PM yes, please |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Guest, Big Tim Date: 30 Aug 02 - 01:26 PM Bill: I'm sorry we don't agreee on Donovan/Dylan! From Brian Behan's "The Brothers Behan" pages 74 -5, "In November 1958 an enemy of Paddy[Kavanagh] spiked his drink and then when he was leaving McDaids pushed him over a 14 foot wall into the canal he loved so well. He was expected to drown, or if not that to die of pneumonia as he had only one lung by this time. Paddy was reciting a poem to himself as he ambled along. "Lord commemorate me where there's water," he intoned. At that point his abductor stole up behind him saying, "I'll give you water, you fuckin mad poet" and he dumped him in the drink, "that's the end of him, the old bollux". But his anger gave him the will to survive. Drawing on all his resources he pulled himself to safety and went to the flat of a female friend to recover. Before long he was back on the piss again. One night when Paddy sat down to have a drink, who walked in but the man who had pushed him! Paddy relished the moment,likening it to Macbeth seeing Banquo's ghost at the feast. Some years later though the two became good friends. It turned out the man had objected to an article Paddy wrote denouncing Dublin's underworld, but was now consumed with remorse for what he had done. Paddy told him not to worry, that there were no hard feelings. Shortly after the man's wife gave birth to a slightly handicapped child and the man believed this to be a sign of God punishing him. You wouldn't see the like of it in the Abbey! He asked Paddy to come to his house and try to heal the baby by laying on hands and Paddy obliged. Who needed John Charles McQuaid [catholic Bishop] when you could have Paddy Kavanagh working miracles on your progeny! When Brendan[Behan] heard of these events, his reaction was, I suppose you could say, to the point."There's no way that clumsy bastard pulled himself to safety" he roared, adding equally endearingly, "I can't wait to get my hands on the fucking bollux who pulled him out". Somehow this doesn't seem so funny as the first time I read it. Sounds extremely apochrypal, Bill perhaps you could check with the barman to see if there's a kernel of reality to it. PK also had some awful things to say about Bishop McQuaid, mentioned above and, dear contributors, for American academic analysts of his poetry. But I couldn't repeat them here! |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,epresleylives@yahoo.com Date: 03 Sep 02 - 01:13 PM In the first verse he refers to 'walking along the enchanted way' despite 'seeing the danger'. This is about walking down raglan road, a street in Dublin (now quite posh), and having bumped into a dangerous girl, prostitutes used to hand out there. He thought to himself 'let grief be a fallen leaf At the dawning of the day'. There are lots of oak trees on Raglan road and this migth be his way of saying that at this time, he had no regard for anything. ***Excerpt1: On Grafton Street in November We tripped lightly along the ledge Of the deep ravine Where can be seen The worth of passion's pledge Here he simply talks about himself and others walking swiftly along Grafton Street and seeing the windows displaying lots of riches, eg. Jewelery, which represent 'The worth of passion's pledge'. At that time grafton street was a window shoppers paradise. ***Excerpt2: 'The Queen of Hearts still making tarts And I not making hay Oh I loved too much And by such and such Is hapiness thrown away' Here he states that this prostitute was still turning tricks i.e. 'still making tarts' while he was making very little money 'I not making hay'. This may be about unfullfilled ambition etc. and excellently describes the absolute loss at having anything to do with such a women, 'Oh I loved too much, And by such and such, Is hapiness thrown away'. Here he describes that too much love can take away your ability to achieve happiness. His love was so strong that he met with this women. ***Excerpt3: 'I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign That's known to the artists Who have known the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint, I did not stint, I gave her poems to say. With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May.' He then goes on to describe the amount that he gave this woman as being greater than simple objects, he gave her poems to say, so in a way he has no pity for her. She now has a rich set of experiences, 'poems to say'. ***Excerpt4: On a quiet street where old ghosts meet I see her walking now Away from me so hurriedly my reason must allow That I had wooed not as I should A creature made of clay - Here he says how he sees this lady of the nigth on streets where 'old ghosts meet'. Dublin was a very small place in Kavanaghs time and he may well have bumped into her on occasion. He then restates his mistake of having wooed not as he should and how she would run away quickly as if 'made of clay'. ***Excerpt5: 'When the angel woos the clay he'd lose His wings at the dawning of the day.' And finally he states the personal cost of this love i.e. 'lose His wings' and earlier in the poem 'Is hapiness thrown away'. Having once been an angel, he had messed with a person 'made of clay'. This was very wrong to him, and he was so full of guilt that he felt he had compromised his very ability to achieve happiness and was without wings. A Catholic up-bringing in Ireland meant that you were virtually sinless as a youngster moving to Dublin, so delicate that a sin made guilt inevitable, especially when you Use one 'made of clay'. Maybe this is part of the reason Paddy drank so much. Maybe he thougth of himself as being bad, for a small mistake he had made. His mistake seems to have been the thougth 'let grief be a fallen leaf, At the dawning of the day'.
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,epresleylives@yahoo.com Date: 03 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM In the first verse he refers to 'walking along the enchanted way' despite 'seeing the danger'. This is about walking down raglan road, a street in Dublin (now quite posh), and having bumped into a dangerous girl, prostitutes used to hand out there. He thought to himself 'let grief be a fallen leaf At the dawning of the day'. There are lots of oak trees on Raglan road and this migth be his way of saying that at this time, he had no regard for anything. ***Excerpt1: On Grafton Street in November We tripped lightly along the ledge Of the deep ravine Where can be seen The worth of passion's pledge Here he simply talks about himself and others walking swiftly along Grafton Street and seeing the windows displaying lots of riches, eg. Jewelery, which represent 'The worth of passion's pledge'. At that time grafton street was a window shoppers paradise. ***Excerpt2: 'The Queen of Hearts still making tarts And I not making hay Oh I loved too much And by such and such Is hapiness thrown away' Here he states that this prostitute was still turning tricks i.e. 'still making tarts' while he was making very little money 'I not making hay'. This may be about unfullfilled ambition etc. and excellently describes the absolute loss at having anything to do with such a women, 'Oh I loved too much, And by such and such, Is hapiness thrown away'. Here he describes that too much love can take away your ability to achieve happiness. His love was so strong that he met with this women. ***Excerpt3: 'I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign That's known to the artists Who have known the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint, I did not stint, I gave her poems to say. With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May.' He then goes on to describe the amount that he gave this woman as being greater than simple objects, he gave her poems to say, so in a way he has no pity for her. She now has a rich set of experiences, 'poems to say'. ***Excerpt4: On a quiet street where old ghosts meet I see her walking now Away from me so hurriedly my reason must allow That I had wooed not as I should A creature made of clay - Here he says how he sees this lady of the nigth on streets where 'old ghosts meet'. Dublin was a very small place in Kavanaghs time and he may well have bumped into her on occasion. He then restates his mistake of having wooed not as he should and how she would run away quickly as if 'made of clay'. ***Excerpt5: 'When the angel woos the clay he'd lose His wings at the dawning of the day.' And finally he states the personal cost of this love i.e. 'lose His wings' and earlier in the poem 'Is hapiness thrown away'. Having once been an angel, he had messed with a person 'made of clay'. This was very wrong to him, and he was so full of guilt that he felt he had compromised his very ability to achieve happiness and was without wings. A Catholic up-bringing in Ireland meant that you were virtually sinless as a youngster moving to Dublin, so delicate that a sin made guilt inevitable, especially when you Use one 'made of clay'. Maybe this is part of the reason Paddy drank so much. Maybe he thougth of himself as being bad, for a small mistake he had made. His mistake seems to have been the thougth 'let grief be a fallen leaf, At the dawning of the day'. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Sep 02 - 01:47 PM So any female walking down a street has to be assumed to be a prostitute? And in nobody's language has "making tarts" ever meant turning tricks. Being a tart is one thing, making a tart is quite another. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 09 Sep 02 - 03:20 PM in another thread I have added Jennifer Warnes lyrics to the same air that Patrick Kavanagh use, 'Dawning of the Day'. see Lyr Add: Too Late Love Comes Jen. Warnes (Raglan) - titled so it will also show up if one searches 'Raglan' |
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Subject: RE: Analysis of Raglan Road From: GUEST,Barry Ian Fiore Date: 27 Sep 02 - 04:08 AM "I gave her the gifts of the mind." This song has a special meaning for me. So life imitates art! (Only the details, like the names of streets, change. I read somewhere that Paddy Kavanagh was around 39 and she was around 20.) The line about the angel losing wings to creature of clay--I hear overtones of a love-theme from Celtic myth. Nice touch! Unfortunately, I have nothing to add to all the learned and informed analyses. All I know is that something indescribable--between ultimate pain and bliss--happens to me when I hear a particular rendition of the song. I'm referring to the Van Morrison and Chieftains one. There's just nothing else that even comes close. Forget all the other versions! And, strange as it may sound, I come out of it almost thankful for the experience of losing the wings. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Jon Date: 22 Oct 02 - 09:14 AM I'm with Barry. Van's is the version I like best, and I too am always better for having heard it. I'll add this. Even if the "tart" reference is refering to a prostitute, I hardly think she is thought of that way by the poet. There is something real in the longing that says she is his love, and the loss is too well described to be petty jealousy. It's real...to me anyway. Peace, Jon |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Tim Date: 25 Oct 02 - 02:57 PM Sorry to make this thread any bigger BUT I notice two things (1) the nursery rhyme "The King and Queen of Hearts" by Charles Lamb has approximately the same cadence as "Raglan Road" and may also have been sung to the "Dawning of the Day" air. This would symbolize a lost of youth as does Pete St. John's "Ring a Ring a Rosie" in "Rare Auld Times." (2) Also in the sub-stanzas of "The King and Queen of Hearts", the queen is compared to Anne Boylen who was executed for unfaithfulness. If nursery rhyme was indeed sang to the "Dawning of the Day" I would vote for the former although I am intrigued by Jimmy C's Dublin/harlot allusion. BTW, here is the nusery rhyme in full: http://www.library.utoronto.ca/utel/rp/poems/lambc6.html |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:54 PM I don't think there's any suggestion that Charles Lamb (and Mary) Lamb wrote the nursery rhyme - what they did was use it as a basis for a jeu-de'esprit expanded version. (A bit like the expansion of the Man in the Moon that Tolkien had Frodo perform in the Lord of the Rings.) I've never heard the nursery rhyme sung to the tune, but it fits well enough, and the suggestion doesn't seem at all unlikely. Maybe one of the "haunting childrens rhymes" such as Pete St John refers to in the Rare Ould Times. And if that were so, overhearing it on a Dublin street might have been the germ of Raglan Road, rather than a flourish added on as decoration. The grit in the pearl, and therefore maybe more acceptable for those who find the line irritating. (A lot of mights there, of course.) Van Morrison's version? Tastes clearly differ on that as well. But then, why shouldn't they? |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,pat Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:36 AM suppose its too late to join in now? |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,liam, tipp Date: 01 Mar 03 - 09:48 PM sorry, i only came upon this site today and the thread was closed so ill post in this one. Firstly the DEFINITIVE AND BEST version version of this song is Luke Kelly's. Van Morrison and Sinéad O' Connor? Pfaff! A few points on the poem/song: the queen of hearts line seems to be getting a lot of attention so my take is that while maybe a little out of place, the line has relevance- in kavanaghs eyes she was the queen of his heart, but she was making tarts, i.e uninterested or uncommited.While he was not making hay-he was preoccupied by her, while he should be doing something worthwhile-either concentrating on his work, or the country reference of making hay back in his native area. The third verse is obviously about him trying to educate her, and in my opinion that while maybe a little condescending, it shows the depth of feeling he had, that he let her into his world. The final verse, i think has been misconstrued a little. "That I had wooed not as i should a creature made of clay" I think that Kavanagh realises now that he put this woman on a pedastal, almost made a godess of her, but now he realises that she was an ordinary person "a creature made of clay", and he regrets the over-adoration of her. Finally i think that the final line is meant to mean that kavanagh thought himself to be on a higher level to the woman (an angel) and when he wooed his lessers (the clay) he was brought back down to earth(he'd lose his wings), that he had notions at the time that were shot down due to the break up of this relationship. Cheers and wish me luck in the leaving. Come on Tipp! |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road From: M.Ted Date: 02 Mar 03 - 12:51 AM Might as well offer my opinion that the woman is a personification of fame, who the writer pursued at the expense of his work, and who eventually passes him by-- |
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Subject: RE: Raglan Road From: mg Date: 02 Mar 03 - 01:10 AM oh this is too good a song to be a personification of anything but a woman he loved and lost..just my opinion of course.. mg |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Mark A. Date: 14 Apr 03 - 02:57 AM I have enjoyed this discussion immensely. I became interested in this song by hearing Joan Osbourne's version sung with the Chieftans. In the near future I will try listening to other versions. I originally just looked for the words through Google and came upon this discussion. The song is very moving and many of the interpretations I read strike a chord with me. Many do not. I do feel it is important to understand what the author is saying. Not in a literal sense necessarily, but certainly the feelings evoked should be sympathetic to what the author felt.However, good poetry meets us where we are as individuals and perhaps its meaning for us individually is all that matters. I have my own interpretation of this song that is similar in aspects to some of the responses above. The question of who the woman is, or for that matter who the author is, historically is not what gives this poem its power. Nor is the local setting that the images of the poem are hung on. Likewise, if its power rested on understanding Irish poetry and folksongs then this poem would fall on far more deaf ears. These 'facts' help but are not critical to sense the deep feeling that inspired Kavanagh's poem. I think in all good poetry, the poet starts with an experience and draws form his heritage and familiar images to clothe his/her inspiration. RAGLAN ROAD (Patrick Kavanagh) On Raglan Road on an autumn day I met her first and knew That her dark hair would weave a snare That I might one day rue I saw the danger Yet I walked Along the enchanted way And I said, let grief be a fallen leaf At the dawning of the day Kavanagh has a sense of fear or warning that the yearnings he felt immediately could lead to a deep hurt that he might regret. The enchanted way may be a street but is more likely a newfound path sparkling with the promise of love. In his confidence and inspiration he lets his worry fall away from him as something past, something dead and incosequential, as he enters a new day, a new life. On Grafton Street in November We tripped lightly along the ledge Of the deep ravine Where can be seen The worth of passion's pledge The Queen of Hearts still making tarts And I not making hay Oh I loved too much And by such and such Is happiness thrown away Here I think as someone above mentioned Grafton street may hold the baubles of evidence of a passion's pledge. But the ledge and deep ravine are the 'razors edge' (- the tension) and the 'gulf' (- the gap) in vision and response in romantic longing and unrequited love. The Queen of Hearts . . . probably does refer to Alice in Wonderland. But also as someone else mentioned the imagery is layered and dense not literal. The woman is or was a queen in his heart and must be for others. She is busy in her life and also is still is titillating others. On the other hand he is getting nowhere with her. (And I not making hay) He believes now that he loved her too much or in the wrong way. Perhaps the way he loved her was frightening or not intelligible to her. I am sure she knew he loved her just that his love was a bit scary a bit too deep. She turns from him and happiness is thrown away. I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign That's known to the artists Who have known the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint, I did not stint, I gave her poems to say. With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May. He held nothing back. He gives her all his best thoughts, he disclosed the mysteries that deep love reveals - the secret that is known to the likes of Walt Witman and all the other visionary poets and artists - sensing that connection with spirit immanent in nature - sound and stone. He shares words and colours, gives her poems to say - poems about her and her beauty - her beautiful hair, her charms, as deep as the dark billows over a bright sunny flowered field in may. Nothing is held back. On a quiet street where old ghosts meet I see her walking now Away from me so hurriedly my reason must allow That I had wooed not as I should A creature made of clay - When the angel woos the clay he'd lose His wings at the dawning of the day This quiet street may be the where they met. The image of the pair, their hands intertwined, have become just a ghost in his imagination. Or perhaps the ghosts just symbolize things that are past. She sees him and must scurry away. She cannot love him as he hoped. He has to come to terms with this. Part of the coming to terms is trying to understand why it did not (or could not) work out as he hoped. He muses that he did not love her as a human. His longing and yearning were of such a nature it drew him close to the angels and to God. (She could not respond to such a love.) It is the angel in him, his touch with God, that woos her - a normal woman, which inevitably he must lose. He must then lose his wings that the love inspired. He loses that inspiration and returns to the last line of the first verse. He hast lost his wings just as surely as the fallen leaf - which he had discounted as not being important yet foreshadowed his fall from grace. My interpretation is just that. I love this song as Joan Osbourne has sung it. It has inspired me to find the words and read al the comments posted on both threads regarding its meaning. With their help, and in reading other poetry, I have tried to interpret the poem in a way that is consistent with the deep feeling it evokes in me. I hope that it is relevant in some way for someone else out there. Mark A. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,wives41@hotmail.com Date: 02 Aug 03 - 04:28 PM Can any one send me chords for this song. I heard the Chieftains version. I would like to learn to play it. As for what it means--for me anyway--most of it is all too painfully obvious (Especially when juxtaposed with "Never give all the heart" from the same album.) Every way is enchanted when you are in love and any misstep is death. She was the angel. He gave her tokens and poems laden with meaning and none of it availed. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 03 - 08:25 PM I am fascinated by the third verse. I want to know anything anyone can tell me about the 'secret sign', who 'the true gods of sound and stone' are and so on. thanks |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,sharyn Date: 21 Sep 03 - 01:30 PM Guest, "the true gods of sound and stone and word and tint" are artists, the way I read it: musicians, scuptors, writers, painters. He's sharing with her the best and most beautiful things he knows, including his own poems. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,Luke Boyd Date: 30 Sep 03 - 01:48 AM "I gave her gifts of the mind I gave her the secret sign That's known to the artists Who have known the true gods of sound and stone And word and tint, I did not stint, I gave her poems to say. With her own name there and her own dark hair Like clouds over fields of May." This may be a bit risqué but in the old Celtic mysteries "gifts of the mind" and "the secret sign" are clear and common references to passing on one's knowledge. First one must give "the gifts of the mind" which allows the other to perceive things in the correct manner. Then one must give them "the secret sign"; this is a bit harder to describe but simplified can be likened to a spiritual "tattoo" or marking which acts as a kind of "Magician card" allowing one access to both the Otherworld and the confidence of others of like mind. Practitioners of the arcane were often called bards or artists and all artistic achievement was considered to be an extension of the same root ability. The "true gods (note plural) of sound and stone" seems a clear reference to the Irish deities predating the Christian invasion. Working hypothetically and using the assumption that he's trying to initiate this girl the rest of the verse is also fairly blunt if one possesses a basic understanding of the practice. "Word and tint" as well as giving her poems to say refers to the practice of reciting poems in a certain manner, an extremely common means of casting a spell, something like the mantras of Hinduism. (This can be seen in almost every story in Irish/Celtic mythology.) "With her own name there and her own dark hair" is a reference to an initiatory experience. "Like clouds over fields of May" is a bit more vague but refers to a failed initiation or something going horribly wrong in the process. Clouds are a common metaphor for the haze of illusion that hangs over human existence which is lifted during initiation. Something akin to the enlightenment of Hindu/Buddhist tradition but not quite. I would add that poetry and mysticism have been linked in all surviving Celtic traditions since mythic times. This can me seem in the likes of Taelsin (Welsh), Merlin (Welsh, Breton, Cornish), and Cuchalain (Irish) as well as many more modern poets and playwrights. I would add that this does not conflict with anything written previously, it was common for such knowledge to be passed from mate to mate and then on to their children. It seems to me the whole poem refers to a man encountering a woman he finds to me beautiful and attempting to bring her in to his world. This attempt fails due to her being made of "clay", or her not being capable of understanding such things. By attempting to drag her into his world for his sake and not hers he is doing "not as he should" and as a consequence she instead drags her into her world, hence he loses his wings. (Note the very clear indication of the angel as male.) Whatever the meaning it is indeed a truly beautiful work and I mean no offense by this interpretation. I also agree totally agree with the statement about metaphors with multiple meanings. I offer this as yet another dimension of this masterpiece. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,JJ Skye Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:00 PM I have but skimmed prior comment herein only but it occurs to mention that the probing, plunging and diving into of unknown depths can sometimes lead to the unexpected onset of severe cranial trauma, not to mention a certain constipation of the intellectual function: Raglan road is any road, Grafton street is any street.....Autumn, November, May; time passes; Boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl. It is a sad thing-beautiful too; it is the way life is. Enjoy on. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Swimming with Behan.... From: GUEST,JJ Skye Date: 24 Jan 04 - 08:19 PM When he was once asked, and by what would have been called 'a snooty nosed, BBC type' drama critic, what it was his play was 'actually about', noted Irish Playwright, Brendan Behan (since deceased) famously replied, "Well now Sir, I don't know if I would be able to tell you that at all, but I will tell you that I like to swim in the sea; I don't know what it is actually about at all, this swimming in the sea; I just know that I like it." Quite so, Mr. Behan. I have but skimmed prior comment herein yet it sure occurs to mention that the probing, plunging and diving into of unknown depths can sometimes lead to the unexpected onset of severe cranial trauma, not to mention a certain constipation of the intellectual function: Raglan road is any road, Grafton street is any street.....Autumn, November, May. Time passes. Boy meets girl; boy falls in love with girl; boy loses girl. It is a sad thing---beautiful too; provacative, compelling and true; it is the way life is. Enjoy. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:32 PM " boy falls in love with girl" "Man falls in love with woman" is more the way of it... And the point isn't pinning down "the facts", it's getting a clearer appreciation of the images andnthe language. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,-pc Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM I've always "felt" that Stonehenge was made by sound, with the help of the true gods. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,JMcGough1@comcast.net Date: 03 Apr 04 - 11:04 PM I get the gist of the poem because I've been there and done that including sensing the danger, tripping along, etc. for those who are looking for deep Celtic mysticism and meaning, you have too much education and too little experience. My first love had dark hair too and morals less Catholic than mine. I was used and my life put on hold for ten years. In short, I fell passionatly in love with a narcicistic person of less education and intelligence who wound up running away from me because her feelings for me were less sincere but not less passionate than my feelings for her. In short, she enjoyed the passion but knew that it wouldn't work as a marriage but I was to naive to see that. It's an age old story told told beautifully. When set to music, it brings tears to my eyes and sad memories to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Apr 04 - 04:52 AM I'm sure Kavanagh is rolling around in his grave laughing at all the deep theories based on his simple love poem! It may be apposite to mention that it's sung to the tune of Fáinne Gheal an Lae (the Bright Dawning of the Day), a traditional song - if anyone wants to read something into that, go on, it'll make even more fun! I love Kavanagh's view of my city. Coming as he did from the mountainy country of the northwest, where three-quarters of the view is a huge sky full of racing clouds, he has a great view of a city which must have felt to him like the depth of a ravine. Someone on the radio the other day - Ben Kiely, maybe? - said that Kavanagh lived in Baggot Street because it was so reminiscent of a market town, with the wide street, rows of shops and pubs, and the bridge at the end. In relation to class, well, Kavanagh was pretty well got. His family ran the Monument Creameries, and he was in no way the impoverished farmer often imagined. |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Murray MacLeod Date: 04 Apr 04 - 08:03 AM I had never realised before that Fáinne Gheal an Lae was a traditional song, I had always thought it was a traditional air. You never stop learning, do you ? |
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Subject: RE: Explore: Raglan Road 2 From: Peter T. Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM Joan Osborne sings this??? Be still my beating heart. Where is that coat......? yours, Peter T. |
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