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BS: Why is the UK in such a mess?
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Subject: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 06:53 AM We are one of the richest countries in the world, and yet our transport system is crap (our trains don't run on time, if at all, we have the worst roads in europe, but the highest road taxes).The health service seems to be getting worse all the time, (hospital waiting lists are now at their highest since records began, we still have people dying in hospital corridors, junior doctors are still doing 120 hours a week, if a factory worker does more than 48 it is illegal!, nuses are leaving the health service to work in shops, we are sending English patients to France because UK hospitals cannot cope,) This government has been in power for a few years now but things don't seem any better, if France & Germany can organise things properley why can't the UK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:10 AM Simple answer: Because we are utterly seduced by always having lower taxes.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Tony Blair Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:20 AM As I see it Mr Hull you've got two choces. Firstly, you can decide what YOU would do about things. Work out a set of cogent, coherent policies and, at the next election - or sooner if your policies attract such attention that they arouse the public to register a vote of no confidence in my Government - stand against me and the leaders of the other political parties. Secondly, you can sod off to some other country where things are better. You mention France and Germany. Planes leave from most UK airports. Flights can be had quite cheaply via the internet. I'll lend you a few quid if you're a bit light at the minute! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: pavane Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:27 AM Lower taxes have nothing to do with it. The problem is a Labour government deciding that they know better than you what you want, and how to spend YOUR money. Fact 1 If you pay a private company, it gets all the money. If you pay the government, it costs them 20% to collect it. Yes, one FIFTH of all they collect in income tax is wasted on tax collectors. Out of 400 bn, that makes 80 billion pounds. Does that sound like a good bargain? So inflate everything they say by 25% to see what it is costing YOU. Fact 2 Every time Labour have previously been in power, they have mucked it up so badly that they were voted out after one term. Who devalued the 'pound in your pocket'? Re the NHS, what private firm could get away with saying THEY decide IF and when you may get the services for which you have ALREADY paid? And that if you started treatment elsewhere, they may reject you? This has been compared with Sainsburys refusing to serve you because you have done some shopping in Tescos. Whatever happened to 'To each according to his need'? Plenty more to say,but no time!
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:30 AM Tony Blair-I think you are crap, and you talk too much, and you are harldy ever in the UK anyway, why are you in africa? You can lend me a few quid though, send it too 35 Chanterlands Avenue, Hull, HU5 3TG.Cheers.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:33 AM Whatever happened to 'To each according to his need'? It's been tried and it simply doesn't work |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Zipster Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:34 AM Aye you can send as many English patients as you like to France, the more the merrier. lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:45 AM Pavene, You say that: one FIFTH of all they [the government]collect in income tax is wasted on tax collectors Do you have any facts to back that up, please? Or did you just make it up? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Skipjack K8 Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:46 AM George Burns had it in as few words as possible. "Too bad the people who really know how to run the country are too busy driving taxis and cutting hair" So John, I have to go with Tony on this one and you have to choose between a successful election campaign, or continuing in nutrition logistics. Skipjack |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:00 AM To my mind, anyone who blames everything on a Labour govenment, or for that matter a Tory government is being naive in the extreme. Lets be honest, for a moment. Governing a country isn't easy. There are countless and conflicting calls as to how best spend a limited pot of money. A government cannot win with everyone. Ever. To simply say; "everything is Tony Blair's fault" shows a total lack of insight. For Labour to say that everything that's wrong is the Tories fault is equally stupid. Pavene, you say that it has nothing to do with taxes. In so far as John's original point regarding hospital waiting lists etc is concerned, then I'd respectfully say that it has. France, Germany etc. spend a far greater amount on health than we do, and guess what, their services are better. I'm sticking by my original post. Here in the UK we expect everything to be wonderful whilst never having to dig in our own pockets to pay for it. To my mind, that is the fundamental problem Paul
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:10 AM The problem as I see it is people abusing the system... The NHS was not designed to deal with the amount of alcohol/drugs/other self-inflicted things that it has to and these now make up the majority of their cases/patients. We have the whole gamut of people who are stuck in the rut of welfare and can't get out of it because it's been made too easy for them to live on it. The government should have all these people back in the lower paid jobs and simply supplement the income rather than just pay them more to be unemployed. That way people learn new skills, both social and technical, and also raise their own self-esteem thus leading them possibly into better, more well-paid jobs if possible. We have far too many people going to university for no real reason because the government want everyone to go, not realising that there are many other worthwhile things that people could be doing, so there's no money there and I'd estimate that about 50-60% never use their degrees for anything. But then again we have no industry anymore so why would we need people who can do useful things like shipbuilders, joiners, plumbers etc... Too many people have kids who don't think about it first, and how it will affect them and how they will affect the kids. There's a lack of interest among parents to spend time with their kids so we have a generation of self-parenting young uns...not good... Oh a whole host of things...don't get me started... Basically it boils down to people wanting to take and be given but not give any back... We need to start being a bit more dictatorial...all of this rubbish about "the people know best what they want" is nonsense. If everyone was left to decide what they needed and wanted then the UK would be in a worse state than it is now. We need to dump PC shite, start thinking for the good of all, rather than for minorities over the needs of the many, and generally lay down some sort of social rule that punishes the bad and rewards the good. Man is technically and animal after all and i don't think we've made it to the stage yet where we can be trusted to be sensible about things... There is tremendous inequality in society, more and more of it coming about by people fighting for the disadvantaged (which is not a bad thing) to the detriment of your ordinary working class man/family who make up the backbone of this country...
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Jeremy Paxman Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:17 AM Well ... that's it! I'm giving up journalism to be Swirlygirl's election agent. I can see it now ... Swirlygirl taking questions from JohnfromHull at PM's question time ... (Slight hint of the Daily Mail about some of your rantings above, surlygirl. Never mind. The hustings will knock some of your rough edges off!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:18 AM swirlygirl, Some fair points. However, if I was to suggest that you shouldn'd have been allowed to go to University, or should take a job washing dishes because you'd had a really difficult time for a few months, I doubt you'd agree. At your age, I thought very much along those lines, thought that people who had 'lost it' should 'get a grip' etc. 10 years on, having gone through an awful time personally, I tend to be a little more compassionate. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:20 AM Sounds like Canada to me...we all have too many rights and not many responsibilities |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Sorry for stating the obvious ... Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:24 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: The Walrus at work Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:24 AM One major problem is "Short term-ism" (appalling phrase!). Governments in general plan on the basis that they will be in power for one term (two at most) and, as any incoming government automatically claims the credit for any benifits which occur during their term - even if they had nothing to do with it - (and likewise, blame their predecessors for any failures<1>) and, as no politician likes to give their opponents a political gift. ALL governments plan only over a three (at most four) year period, anything longer, no matter what the outcome would be, is automatically discarded. Walrus <1> This is true of all governments, regardless of party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Sorry for stating the obvious ... Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:28 AM but ... if you think the UK's in a mess then just thank the Lord that you don't live in somewhere like ... um, let's see ... Afghanistan? ... Somalia? ... Lebanon? In other words ... get real. Stop whinging. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:43 AM Swirly, the more I read your postings, the more I like your attitude. Why don't you forget about EJ and come over here to the States? I would make you happy .... Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:51 AM Jeez, Murray, You're starting to sound like some of the jerks on Yahoo!Chat. Believe me that is NOT a good thing
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:53 AM Well Paul M I always planned on doing something with my degree...I just think that there are many things that people might like to be doing, like learning proper trades, apprenticeships and the like, but there's a stigma attached to them now cos they're deemed to be "no brainer" jobs. The government has put so much emphasis on university education at the expense of other things. A balance needs to be struck you know... And society will always need dishwashers and if i was unemployed and that's what it took to get me back on my feet and back into society then i'd do it. christ i worked as a skivvy for Celtic Football Club long enough! I know some people have problems and yes they should be sorted out, but not at the expense of society as a whole. Why should inmates of prisons get free education, yet a kid has to pay? Why should alcoholics get extra money in their benefits? I'm sorry, but it's just not right and there's a lot of people much older than me who have the same views.... Murray, where you from in the US and I might consider it??!! But then you guys don't have a welfare state at all really and that's something i don't agree with... And "sorry for stating the obvious"..if everyone tried to sort out a bit of what was around them then the world might actually get its shit together. Charity begins at home...Afghanistan is not my immediate problem though I'd do what I can to help, but sorting out the people here is my first priority... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Skipjack K8 Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:54 AM ...... if the jodphurs fit ........... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:58 AM swirlygirl said: Why should alcoholics get extra money in their benefits? I was unaware that this was the case. Do you have any facts to back that up? Or was it something that the Daily Mail made up? Paul
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:12 AM Sorry if my jocular little interjection was misconstrued as an inappropriate come-on, GUEST, Swirlygirl and I have had light-hearted altercations here before, I knew she wouldn't take it amiss. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:23 AM Paul M...my mum used to do lots of voluntary work for our local council and discovered lots and lots of interesting things that I bet half of the population doesn't know about... You also know that there are homeless people who have been offered houses, grants to furnish them, that's grants, not loans, and wouldn't accept...excuses given ranging from "don't like the area...who would want to live there" to the usual "think of the money I'd lose"... I could enlighten you all but then I'd have to kill you! Just a bit disillusioned with how hard my life is for always working, getting education I can use to benefit society, and getting fuck all for it...in loads of debt... How can people justify paying wine brokers £50,000 a year when radiographers get a mere £16,000 most of the time? It's all wrong and the soooner ordinary people like me start standing up for ourselves the better. :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:30 AM GUEST I actually did meet EJ online...not intentionally...wasn't looking for a bloke...it just kinda happened and now we would be living in domestic bliss if only we could be living in the same goddamn city!! :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM I'm sorry swirlygirl, But saying: my mum used to do lots of voluntary work for our local council and discovered lots and lots of interesting things is hardly hard evidence for suggesting that alcoholics get get extra money in their benefits, is it? If you've got some reasonable evidence, I'd like to here it. If not please desist from propogating nonsense. Thank you Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:33 AM Swirlygirl-I agree with most of the points you make, however I dont feel it is a good idea to compare wages whilst I agree it seems somewhat unfair that useful jobs dont seem as well paid as others, for example I bring home more money than a firefigher, but what kind of mess would the NHS be in if we paid radiographers 50,000 pounds pa?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Daily Mail Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM PaulM I don't see why you should let facts be the arbiter of who governs us and how when a bit of emotionally charged, spurious, anecdotal bollocks from us (and our apologists) is much more effective at helping people get a handle on the big issues. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: kendall Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:40 AM I dont know about the homeless in the UK, but, I can speak about it here in Portland Maine. There was a time when there was plenty of affordable housing here, then Urban Renewable came along,they tore down all those places to put up fancy office buildings. The people who were dis placed had nowhere to go, so, they are homeless. Ronald Raygun had the crust to say that they are homeless because they CHOOSE to be on the streets! Remember the republican vegetable, Ketchup? Today, only 7% of rental units are vacant in Portland Maine, and, rents are out of sight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:42 AM I bring home more money than a firefighter Is that because of your extra benefits, John ? Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM Sorry, there should be a smiley there, that was a joke, as I am sure John knows Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Applause! Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM Nice post Kendall ... and I'll bet you didn't facbricate the statistic you use to back up your view. Unlike some of the spurious nonsense above! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:46 AM One thing that annoys me is money been wasted on what can only be described as shite, eg the millenium dome (cost = somewhere aproaching 1 billion pounds!), whilst cancer patients are refused expensive drugs because their doctors say they are too expensive.Another example of this kind of PC money wasting crap =Humberside Police Force have decided to employ a poet, to write poems with the young tearaways around here! Have you ever heard anything so bloody ridiculous? Another example=Hull City Council have just spent 1/2 a million pounds refurbishing the city morturay, they are knocking it down later this year, and moving over to the hospital site (Hull Royal Infirmary), these are just 2 examples of stupid money wasting, that I know of localy, there must be hundreds around the country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM Hull City Council have just spent 1/2 a million pounds refurbishing the city mortuary I appreciate your grave concern, John, but personally I think it's a dead nice thing to do .... Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM Ok, so Pavene and swirlygirl both seem to have solutions. Both make inaccurate and unsubstantiated comments. When challenged on these, both disappear! Heck, maybe they should be MPs Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:52 AM Well I'm sure there's be a hell of a lot more nurses and doctors if we paid them a bit more don't you?? I'll put a more detailed post up tonight when I get back from work...from my pittance paid job! Oh and just because I'm not producing any hard statistics at the minute doesn't mean my posts are "spurious". I'm not saying there aren't genuine people out there...I'm just saying that the people who aren't genuine get more for it... :) xxx P.S. I do it for the love of it, not the money. As long as I have enough money to get by I'm fine. Not greedy me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:52 AM Murray-I recently received a tax form asking me to declare all my income including tips, benfits, perks, etc.I was going to put "I recieve none of the above", but decided to ignore the form, this was a bad move! The tax people have started to hassle me" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Dave Wynn Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:55 AM Careful Swirly....Acoholism is not self inflicted. You become one and it should be considered a condition. Just like we would have to refuse to treat sports injuries (self inflicted). Any injury as a result of your own bad driving (self inflicted). The list is long and I won't bore you with truth. Live a little and pick up some compassion on the way. Spot |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:56 AM Swirly girl-Become a black cab driver or a used car dealer, you will earn loads of money.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 09:57 AM Fair enough, swirlygirl. If you can produce some facts to support your earlier statements, fine. If not, please have the good grace to withdraw them and admit that you made a mistake. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:09 AM So why don't I get any extra money then for only having one hand? Surely I count as disabled? Fair's fair..wasn't my fault I was born like that...just like you say it's not the alcoholic's fault... Might start my own minority group...get more money that way, I would, rather than just getting on with it and dealing with it. Where was my free counselling to get over my problems? :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:13 AM I assume by your reply that you have no facts to support your earlier assertions? Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:25 AM And you have all the facts Paul M? I'm at work...what do you want me to do? Take an hour off and find the facts for you right now? Bit impatient aren't we...didn't we read the "short-termism" post earlier...some things take time... And please come up with a better argument than my age...I'm an adult Paul M...will be 25 soon...not a kid anymore...have lived in council housing estate and lived through problems of a deprived area with a mum and dad who had to work zillions of hours just to have enough money so that us kids wouldn't want for anything, yet the majority of kids I went to school with, coming from a deprived area and all, had parents who didn't work, and the kids weren't planning on working either and you know...lots of them aren't from what I hear of them nowadays. I'm from a working class family Paul that's had all th eusual deaths, alcoholism, divorce etc...so don't tell me that I don't understand things cos I'm young...I'm sure there's plenty of things you don't understand cos you've never been there...all we can do is try though... It's just that some of us thought that sitting round feeling sorry for ourselves and expecting to be given was not the way forward... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Sledge Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:34 AM At the risk of sounding judgemental (so what) PaulM has got himself a single issue subject and continues to beat swirly girl over the head with it, OK so you've asked for clarification but how many times do you have to do that to make yourself look oh so clever, sounds too much like a real politico to me. Stuart |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:42 AM Thanks Stuart... Sledge...very appropriate...hitting over head...hammer...sledge...oh never mind! Paul M obviously thinks I have all the answers and that my magicking up of the facts will make everything ok... I just want a nice life where things are a bit fairer. I don't expect a magical idealistic fairy tale land...I just want the people who deserve to get on to get on... I want everyone to have sufficient opportunity to get on and it's then up to them whether they take it or not, but some people have the oopportunity NOW and don't. You make your own choices in life, albeit fate steps in sometimes and makes it a bit harder, but it's still your choice to an extent. Oh I could go on for hours but then I'd start sounding like some confused right-wing-wanting-to-be-a-leftie-possibly-but-I-really-am-a-leftie person!! Licensing to have children that's what I want!!! :) xxx
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:31 AM All I'm asking is that you back up your 'facts' with something, rather that expect me to believe any arguements you choose to pull out of thin air. If that makes me a sound like 'a real politico' so be it. You said that alcoholics get extra money in their benefits I questioned that. Yet you have neither put forward any evidence for it, or admitted that you are wrong. I could go on for hours but then I'd start sounding like some confused.. I think you already have... Kind regards Paul
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: sledge Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:36 AM If endless repitions the way ahead: "you've asked for clarification but how many times do you have to do that to make yourself look oh so clever" Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:41 AM What's this extra money called? I don'y claim any benefit at the moment, so obviously would not qualify.I have in the past had to claim unemployment benefit and I am sure I can't remember seeing anything on the claim forms for a beer allowance or anything similar, though it would have been useful at the time! I can just imagine it= 1 Are you alcoholic? if yes go to 2 2 Do you want to claim your beer allowance 3 Sign Here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:54 AM Basically because we get diverted into fighting among ourselves while the fat cats concentrate on sorting out thing for themselves, and bribe us and bluff us into neglecting everything that isn't short-term. And because we think that putting a cross in a box every few years, or not putting a cross in a box is all that is needed of a good citizen.
The best lack all conviction while the worst
I don't think it's nonsense for a city to employ a poet to work with young people. A good enough poet, anyway - which it probably wouldn't be, given the kind of people who would make the choice.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:01 PM Yo are becoming quite the wit, John ! Paul, I don't see why it is necessary to nitpick about alcoholics' extra benefits. Swirly's whole point is that there is a substantial number of people claiming benefits who are perfectly capable of doing a day's work, but don't. Not all people claiming benefits are playing the system but many do. Everybody knows this is the case, but as soon as the fact is voiced, the Pavlovian shrieks of the left are heard loud and clear. I too, like Swirly, came from a working class background and lived for years in a council estate, one of the most notorious in Scotland, so please, don't any ivory tower inhabitant start telling me what does and does not happen under the British welfare system. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Dave Wynn Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM My next statement is hearsay but from a fairly reliable source. That source is the actual person I know who is currently claiming a disablilty alowance because he is not considered able to support himself adeqately due to his alcoholism. In effect his alcoholism is considered a disability. This is quoting the person (who please note is not a recovering alcoholic but a drinking alcoholic) so the above facts may not be reliable. He was a good friend once but now after many attempts to help him and many knock backs (and worse) I have failed him and no longer treat him as a friend. But Swirly I hope the Licensing for children was said in jest. It would probably be a very good solution in the right hands but a walk down the road into eugenics is not worth the risk. Spot ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:14 PM Sorry Mcgrath, but I really can't see the point of reading poetry to a bunch of muggers & car thieves, in my opinion they need a good kick up the arse, bring back the birch, it was never like this in my day, bring back national service etc etc.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM Murray is right about people cheating the benefit system, I personally know of somebody who is claiming disability benefit, when he has admitted he is perfectly well, he gets a new car evry 3 years, rent & local taxes paid & does not have to sign on, he says he has a bad back.On a council estate in Hull, many of the new cars are provided by disability scheme, when there owners could work if they wanted, this annoys me because some people that are disabled/ill, do not get the benefits they should. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: katlaughing Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:10 PM Most of you sound like the hardcore right-wing Republicans over here. Just to clarify a couple of points: We do have a welfare state here in the US. There was a lot of talk just as is going on in this thread, when we got so-called welfare reform. All it did was put mroe people out on the street, with no homes, and cause greater numbers of mothers and children living in extreme poverty. Regarding healthcare, private insurance companies are the main over here and they DO have the right and DO exercise that right to tell the insured where, when, and IF they may seek medical treatment, if they want the insurance to cover it. Our own Aine just encountered an instance of this, when one of the docs she went to was not on her insurance company's "approved" list. The poetry thing is no different than employing a folkie to work with those kids with music...it is the arts and it CAN uplift. If even one child can be sparked by such and seeks out a path away from what they've been, then, in this True Lefty's mind, it is worth it. Why should the poor be deprived of such, esp. if they are young adults who've come up with no exposure to the finer arts? If we don't want them to conitnue a life of crime, we need to show them a different way, perhaps several different ways, in addition or in lieu of gaol time. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Nemesis Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:14 PM The disability benefit system is being overhauled, I believe to cut out those sorts of abuses. However, it might be helpful in the first instance if the DSS trained their staff a little better. One descended unnanounced on a friend with Multiple Sclerosis and after counting the toothbrushes in the bathroom demanded aggressivlely of her "So, what is this MS then?". (Or maybe that is the way they train them?)
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:37 PM I'm all for involving kids in the arts but then I think it's a beneficial thing to society. (See "Stomp" going tound schools and stuff) I don't think you should be able to claim alcoholism as a disability though. Why can't I claim as a disabled person then? What makes someone with alcoholism different from me? (see earlier post) You see, it's an unfair system. Gve the alcoholics free counselling and rehab but not extra disability allowance. I;m not a complete ogre you know... And on the subject of children licenses, if i could come up with a way of doing it that wouldn't be so facist then I'd be all for it, but I can't at the moment so I'll just have to come up with other ways round it. When you've grown up round lots of dysfunctional families who produced fucked up children you feel the need to try and come up with some solution. For the kids' sake :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:44 PM Sure there are skivers down the bottom of the system, but they are symptoms of things being wrong rathr than the causes. The causes are a lot higher up the food chain. Focussing too much attention on the symptoms doesn't do much to cure the disease. But if you are doing nicely out of the disease, having people focus on the symptoms is very helpful.
If something is rotting in the basement, there are going to be a lot of flies buzzing around. But getting rid of the flies , if you could, wisn't going to get rid of the something rotting in the basement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Morticia Date: 06 Feb 02 - 01:58 PM I work a lot with DLA claimants...( Disability Living Allowance) and have never known anyone able to claim any 'extra' due to alcoholism. What may be considered unfair is that it is very much dependant on how the form is filled out, which DSS doctor comes out to see you, etc. I agree that it is a lottery, with as many deserving losers as undeserving winners.....perhaps that's whatwe should be concentrating on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Ebbie Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:20 PM It may not bode well for the future of our world- but it is kind of refreshing to hear of another country's messed up system(s). Tell you what- maybe we'll get them all sorted out at the same time. :) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:33 PM Tony Blair-If you still want to lend me some money, don't bother sending it as the postal service is shit and it probably won't get here, just ask your friend Mr Prescott, to drop it off next time he is passing.cheers.john |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: swirlygirl Date: 06 Feb 02 - 03:40 PM This defines alcoholism under incapacity benefit: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/medical/abusingibh.pdf This tells you about incapacity benefit, so Paul M, since you're so smart, go read and then make conclusion about the extra money alcoholics are entitled to when they are considered incapacitated. http://www.dss.gov.uk/publications/dss/2000/dmg/dmg/ch13.pdf Don't give them extra money to spend on more alcohol...put it towards professional help so they can get back on the horse, that's all I'm saying... (Sorry, no time for blue clicky things) :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Grab Date: 06 Feb 02 - 06:08 PM If everyone voluntarily donated money to the government to cover road-building, hospitals, national defence, police, etc, then there'd be no need for a tax system. Just think of the money we could save! So if you think the tax system is costing too much, don't forget to suggest to all your friends that this is the best way to work it. And don't be put out when they react by laughing in your face... As far as inmates getting free education, wouldn't you rather they learnt a skill or trade inside, or some basic skills such as working a computer, learning maths, etc, as an alternative to having no better prospects than a life as a burglar/mugger? BTW, if you want to see truly bad roads, head out to the States anytime and visit Michigan. All the Interstates there are in a worse condition than any given farm-track in the UK! :-) We all know the NHS and teaching are fubar'ed, but that's the result of a succession of governments messing it up - pay and conditions are now improving, but not enough yet. Trouble is, the money has to come from somewhere, and the British have always collectively given a big 'fuck-you' to any political party who proposes to raise taxes to improve public services. You want public service improvements, be prepared to lose another 1-2% out of your pay as per the Lib Dem proposals. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Jock Morris Date: 06 Feb 02 - 07:21 PM So 3 and a half hours after Swirlygirl came back with the facts PaulM still hasn't had the good grace to admit he was wrong. Hmmn, perhaps he needs to take heed of what he was shouting himself before he goes berating others. Scott |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: DougR Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:00 PM This is a very interesting thread. I agree with part of why my liberal friend, kat, had to say. I really am surprised that so many of you sound like (Horrors!) U. S. Republican conservatives. Her take on the U. S. Welfare system differes a bit from mine though. I think the revisions in the welfare program were positive and I believe a lot more people who depended upon our welfare system to sustain them are working now than before the revisions. I agree totally with so many of you that if a person can work, they should work rather than depend upon the kindness of those who do. I guess kindness is not the word, though, because they are tax funds (welfare) and we have little to say about that. kat is right in that the health insurance companies in the U. S. have a lot to say about patient treatment. The reason for that, though, is they are private companies and there are lots of them. You can choose which one you want, pay the premiums, but then you must abide by their rules. I, myself, have not had any problems with the company that I am insured with, but I know many people have had problems. The only government health program we have is Medicare and Medicade, which is available primarily to citizens 65 years of age or older. Medicare does not pay for prescription drugs, but many people participate in HMO insurance companies affiliated with Medicare, and prescription drug allowances are usually available through those programs. I agree totally with Swirlygirl on the alcholic situation. I can't imagine why an alcholhic would be paid to be one, and that is essentially what is happening, it seems to me. And it is a real puzzlement why Swirlygirl, who was born with only one hand, would not be considered disabled. Boggles my mind. I hope a lot of our liberal friends on the Mudcat read this thread because if they had their way, our economic sytem would be dumped in favor of a system more akin to yours. No thanks, I say. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: kendall Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:10 PM I dont make up statistics unless there are none! Seriously, the figure I quoted is from the Portland Housing Authority. Alcholism IS a disability. The fact that it is self inflicted is another issue altogether. My father was an alcoholic; he neglected his family; he was not a bad person, he just couldn't make it in this world.My mother dumped him when I was 9; So,had it not been for "State Aid" God knows what would have happened to me and my siblings. That aid went to us, not him.Every male in my family has or had a drinking problem; I've seen the results first hand close up, so, don't tell me it's not a disability. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Date: 06 Feb 02 - 08:55 PM Some people are rude towards swirlygirl as far as I can see. I pretty much agree with her. We need a strong, very strong, safety net. Makes me a very strong liberal in that sense. Then I get conservative as they come: anyone bouncing on that safety net had better behave herself. No drugs, no trashing of public housing, no children out of wedlock. Curfew for teens. Public works for able people rather than straight benefits. Places for those with alcohol and drug problems to go for shelter, hospice or treatment, but no money should ever cross paths with them. Strong emphasis on occupational education in high school and grants for those after high school. An expectation that people in high school and college will work a couple hours of day usually, at least, that people with disabilities will get total care if that is what they need, or limited work if they are able to do it. That single parents receiving assistance will report for work during school hours at a public job if necessary. If they have infants, they should bring the infant to a public day care or elder care place where they work several hours. That people working hard but barely surviving get assistance when necessary, and that there is an expecation that everyone between the ages of say 16 and 65, if they are in good health, will be working at least a few hours a day. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Peg Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:26 PM I agree that PaulM was being really harsh with swirlygirl and after demanding she "admit she was wrong" unless ehs provided "hard facts" now neglects to acknowledge that she did what he bullied her into (which he should). The main problem with the UK is way more litter in the streets than there used to be. Horrible. It's even a a problem in the countryside.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: DougR Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:40 PM Peg: Pardon, but I can't believe you really think the main problem with the UK is litter. You're kidding, right? Litter isn't good, anywhere, but I can't imagine it would be the "main" problem anywhere. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Peg Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:47 PM I see more litter in the streets as symptomatic of a much larger problem; no one cares. People are self-absorbed and antagonistic and apathetic just like the worst Americans. They don't want to be told what to do, they think they are always right, and they think it's okay to let someone else clean up their mess. Anyone who behaves this way is not an asset to a decent society. Think about it. This sort of behavior leads to much much worse... Once you have begun to disrespect the very ground you walk upon, it's all over. Ask the native Americans.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: DougR Date: 06 Feb 02 - 10:49 PM Ok, Peg. You do have a point, I agree. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:03 PM There isn't any other answer if we take the thread title literally .... Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 02 - 11:46 PM There are many problems in the Uk right now, (high crime rates, soaring teenage pregnancy, decline in standards of all public services, etc), so whilst litter in the street is a problem it is certainly not the main one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Guest, Colonist, IHeartLimeys Date: 07 Feb 02 - 12:02 AM Dear All: I'm sorry to hear the UK is in such a mess. Why not simply take a vacation and not get all tense about it? I always heard your islands were simply brim full of untapped potential. Rousing chorus of Neddy Seagoon singing "There'll always be an England, and England shall be free, there'll always be an England......" I heart limeys |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Ferret Date: 07 Feb 02 - 12:29 AM The Tax on tobacco and alcohol comes to more than the health budget, and if you put all the unemployed in the armed forces then you have to up the defence budget so you have to pay more Tax's (if you pay them just the same as there benefit you still have to pay for training and equipment). As for taking up all opportunities some people are not able to do so for many reasons such as low IQ est. As for work for benefit it is much simpler to run if you put them all in camps, and so they can not sneak off and get out of doing work, put them in a uniform (striped cloths say) dose this sound familiar. I live on benefit I get just £106 per week I am a single parent with a young daughter. My ex-wife & sister in law are mentally ill with agoraphobia, claustrophobia, panic attacks, anxiety, and clinical depression, (it run in there family and I did not know at the time) and I am there sole carer for them. I start my day at 7.30 in the morning get my daughter up and ready for school take her to school for 8.30. Go get my ex-wife & sister in law up and do there breakfast's (they live separately from each other and me) make shore that they take there medication, then take them to there groups or appointments sort out any problems (and there are many) do the washing help them do there house work, make dinner for them. Then go and fetch my daughter bring her home and take ex-wife & sister in law home do tea for my daughter make my dinner do the washing-up do my house work, put my daughter to bed then I have to do all the paper work for a club I run, (that has made about £20,000 for the Cornish air ambulance) then check my e-mail's and what replies need to be dun. Have a look at the Mudcat for about 1/2 an hour then go to bed about 4am and get up 3-4 hour later. And start again. Saturday's I start at 9am. My daughter has rest bite care, and I have my ex-wife & sister in law for the day. Sunday starts at 11am breakfast then get the dinner on go and get my ex-wife & sister law for dinner then take them back spend the rest of the day with my daughter. No holidays. I don't know how much it will cost the state if I did not do all this and got a job but I bet it's alot more than I get. It's a pity I do not work, I can use the rest. And if you had to have a license to have kids the may I mention with only one hand from berth you will probably not get one. You cannot in a free country tell people whether or not to have children. Learn your history. If you do not learn from history's mistakes you are destine to repeat them. All the best ferret. PS it 05.00hr here now |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Ferret Date: 07 Feb 02 - 12:35 AM Hi Kat long time no here hope your well and doing fine all the best ferret |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:00 AM Yeah ferret i know it's hard for some people, but it's for people who do act as carers and who do have lives like yours that I'm arguing FOR, not against, so please don't have ago at me. You're doing a worthwhile thing and not being paid enough for it, and I'm sorry, if there was licensing to have kids and I was told I couldn't under fair licensing laws then I'd have to accept it. It's not everything you know. If you can't you can't. Just like I don't agree with IVF on the NHS either. It's not a necessary treatment in my book. I'm already told I can't claim disability allowances (which I wouldn't even if I could cos I don't need it) and I accept that. The money in the system should be going to help the people who need it. Some of the money in the system obviously goes to respite care for your daughter and that's a good thing. But I genuinely think that just GIVING certain people extra money is not the way forward. It should be put into programmes to help them move on and have a better quality of life, even if this has to be done forever because that's what having a welfare state is all about. Providing for those who NEED it, and giving them what they need, not just shelling out the money and then forgetting about them. And may I add that I don't particularly see why I couldn't bring up a child as I'm prepared to make all sacrifices necessary for its wellbeing. That's what I meant about licensing...mentally ready...I can do 99% of tasks that everyone else can do including having a faster typing speed than most people I know (EJ will vouch for this). Please never throw any disability back into anyone's face because if you're looking for any sympathy and help that's not the way forward, dissing someone else. I don't need anyone's help to do things on a daily basis. Obviously learning guitar is out but I am learning melodeon. There would be nothing I couldn't do from my experience of caring for family member's children so far that would prevent me from having proper control over any children I may have. And never once have any of them, being so used to me, ever used it in an argument against me, because they've been brought up to know better... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:02 AM You know it's kind of funny how everyone who's dissing me on here for being "right wing" (hey I voted Scottish Socialist at the last elections) and other stuff and not prepared to stick up for the disadvantaged is quite prepared to throw my disadvantage back at me... Bit of a hypocrisy there methinks... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:13 AM And another thing...as I'm training to be an archivist I think I might know a bit about history. The idea you're talking about is to learn and move on from your mistakes. That doesn't mean to scrap your ideas all together. It's all about change and review, and if you'd carefully read my last post about it you'd have read how I don't think it's feasible...go learn to read...and spell... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:21 AM Oh and Kendall...you didn't get extra allowance because your dad was "incapacitated" then. It was money given to you because of your situation, not to your dad as he wasn't living with you. I'm not objecting to the money given to the single parent struggling family due to circumstance. You can't predict sometimes how family life will turn out and that's what welfare is there to cope with. But I still think there should be better provision to allow people to get back on the horse after situations like that. It can only be beneficial to the country as a whole. But the answer to alcoholism is not giving extra money to the person to fund that addiction. It's to put the money into schemes to help them kick it and get them back into society. This is where governments fall down because they don't want to take responsibility for people who need help. They just want to give them money and palm them off... Now do you see where I'm coming from? :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:28 AM All focussing on the symptoms. It's true enough, the nasty stuff that goes on at the bottom matters, and needs attention, and that can't wait until the system is sorted out that gives rise to it.
But it's important to try to stand back and see where it is those kind of things happen, and where it is they don't, and to try to identify the causes, and imagine the kind of changes that might make it better.
And that isn't just about money either. It's about the kinds of things we value and the kinds of things we reward and the kinds of things we just don't take any notice of.
And I'm with Morticia on suggesting that there are far far more people who don't get the help they deserve and need. compared with those who get help they don't deserve and don't need. But it sometime seems that there's a lot more attention paid to the latter, even when the effect of this is in fact to make things harder for the former. (Extra hurdles to get over, extra forms to fill in...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: kendall Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:50 AM Peg is 100% right. I also was struck by the amount of trash in the streets of London. Even here in my little city I'm seeing more and more graffiti on buildings and highway supports. It is the first sign of urban decay. Sure, they are symptoms of a deeper problem; so, let's discuss the real problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:58 AM Disposable society...that's what we've created... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 08:58 AM Disposable society...that's what we've created... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 09:09 AM But again, when you have people living on benefits and no help to get them out of that cycle then they don't own anything and nothing's theirs so they don't regard anything around them as precious. Why shouldn't you thrwo trash out of your window if it's not your garden it's being thrown into and the council come to clean it? And no one seems to be responsible for their actions anymore because some PC human rights person will find some mitigating circumstance that illustrates how the person has had a hard life, or whatever. We do need to start being a bit tougher on people... I think...now that's only my opinion...nothing to start a war over... I also think that part of the problem is that no one knows anyone anymore. When I was growing up if I'd been seen littering or doing anything bad by anyone my mum knew, they'd have told her, so I was too scared to do anything bad! But we're not allowed to make children afraid in any way anymore. Like, you're not allowed to tell them about the bogey man or anything, so we have a generation growing up who think there's very little to fear. Obviously (cos I realise now that I have to state the obvious here) that doesn't apply to everyone, but i think it does to quite a lot of kids/teenagers nowadays, some members of my own family included....take drugs for example...won't happen to me will it?
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 07 Feb 02 - 09:35 AM swirlygirl, I'm very sorry if I've seemed to bully you in this thread. That was never my intention. Yesterday, was a bad day, and I took things out on you. I apologise. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM S'ok...I'm tough really...we all have to take it out on someone, but next time can you make it someone you know??!!! ...sniff...sniff... :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,PaulM Date: 07 Feb 02 - 09:56 AM I'll try... A very sorry Paul who doesn't really, like hurting anyone, ever |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Peg Date: 07 Feb 02 - 10:44 AM I think things like high crime rates could be said to be very much connected to the large amounts of litter...again, it comes down to human beings having no respect for anyone else or anything else beyond what is in their own backyards or wallets...I honestly don't think you can oversimplify this. If people think for two seconds before tossing their plastic water bottle on the ground, they will think two seconds before cutting someone off in traffic, screaming at someone who jumps the queue, ignoring the homeless person who needs change or the elderly woman who needs help crossing the street. Lack of empathy for others seems to me to be at the heart of criminal activity and violence.
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,swirlygirl Date: 07 Feb 02 - 10:54 AM I'm with ya on the litter there Peg. Was drummed into me my whole life "put it in your pocket and take it home if you can't find a bin". I've been known to stop people in the street and ask them why they dropped whatever they dropped. But it's because we're becoming a culture of immediacy. We want everything now and we don't care who we have to stamp on or con or whatever to get it. :) xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:17 AM This thread is getting a bit long to load for people with slow loading computers, but it still seems to be chugging alongt at a fair rate - so I'm starting a new one, and putting the last few posts into the opening thread to make it easier for people to catch up. See next post for link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Tone d' F Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:20 AM Swirlygirl, the problem with getting tougher as we saw when our reveered government when it stopped people under 18 claiming benefit, after the age of 16 their parent could not claim for them. The only way this could be circumvented was for the parent to throw the kid out and write saying they would have nothing to do with them. The end result was a massive rise in crime. It even took them six years to link the two. I suffer from what they think may be unstable angina, I have arthritis in both legs, spine and hands, my 5th lumbar vertebrea is crumbling, I have meneires disease and If I don't use a CPAP machine at night I stop breathing 4 to 5 times a night. I have had three heart attacks and when at my worst cannot walk across my kitchen. Due to the new criterea I am not eligable for DLA because I do not qualify I am expected to work. So no toughening up is not the idea, getting it right would be better. I was taken to hospital at 10:30 last week, after being sorted out in the resus unit I was put in a corridor for 6hrs whilst test etc. were sorted, there were 16 other people in the corridor of A&E, at least I wasn't alone. This A&E is to be closed due to lack of money, bad management and bad planning, our local MP even believes it's reasonable, he lives near the next hospital along the coast which is keeping it's A&E, whilst another is up in arms as he would lose the use of A&E (both ae Tory). The system does not work for the politicians who run the country why do you expect it to work for the populace
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 02 - 11:22 AM And here is the link to part 2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: GUEST,Boab Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:06 AM Aye, Guest mcgarvie [ Feb 6, 8.55]---"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" . A mantra which has come to be ridiculed by those who cannot see that the fact that it never yet has been in effect is not due to any imperfection in the philosophy, but through the imperfections of humanity---greed, sloth and deviousness, to name one or two---- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why is the UK in such a mess? From: Jock Morris Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:34 PM PaulM,
Congratulations on having the courage to apologise to Swirlygirl; you have gone up greatly in my estimation. Takes a brave person to admit they were wrong on a public forum. Scott Scott |