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Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)

John Harrison 29 Nov 99 - 07:04 AM
Skipper Jack 08 Feb 02 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 08 Feb 02 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 08 Feb 02 - 06:38 AM
GUEST 08 Feb 02 - 07:31 AM
Charley Noble 08 Feb 02 - 01:02 PM
Skipper Jack 08 Feb 02 - 01:40 PM
Barry Finn 08 Feb 02 - 08:46 PM
Jim Dixon 10 Feb 02 - 12:08 AM
Skipper Jack 10 Feb 02 - 05:01 AM
Jim Dixon 10 Feb 02 - 08:31 AM
Skipper Jack 10 Feb 02 - 10:46 AM
Charley Noble 10 Feb 02 - 05:26 PM
Skipper Jack 11 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM
Charley Noble 11 Feb 02 - 05:21 PM
Madam Gashee 14 Feb 02 - 07:36 AM
Charley Noble 14 Feb 02 - 09:36 AM
MMario 14 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 14 Feb 02 - 10:06 AM
Skipper Jack 14 Feb 02 - 03:22 PM
MMario 14 Feb 02 - 03:28 PM
Charley Noble 14 Feb 02 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,JJ 23 Feb 02 - 02:56 AM
Madam Gashee 27 Feb 02 - 04:53 PM
Madam Gashee 27 Feb 02 - 04:57 PM
Skipper Jack 28 Feb 02 - 04:38 AM
Harry Basnett 07 Jul 02 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,guest 07 May 09 - 06:20 AM
Charley Noble 07 May 09 - 09:26 AM
radriano 07 May 09 - 06:18 PM
Charley Noble 07 May 09 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,embozarth 15 Aug 10 - 09:38 AM
Charley Noble 15 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Aug 10 - 01:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM
Charley Noble 16 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM
shipcmo 31 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM
EBarnacle 31 Dec 10 - 10:51 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 01 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Fritz Fitton, Fremantle, West Australia 16 Mar 11 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,Fritz Fitton 16 Mar 11 - 01:40 AM
Gibb Sahib 16 Mar 11 - 01:41 AM
Gibb Sahib 11 Jul 11 - 08:38 PM
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Subject: Bound Down Trinidad
From: John Harrison
Date: 29 Nov 99 - 07:04 AM

I am looking for the words of a shanty called Bound Down Trinidad or Down Down Trinidad which goes on "to look for Sonny Dore"


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Subject: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 05:43 AM

I need help in locating the lyrics of this shanty collected by James Madison Carpenter.

I am not sure what the recognised title is?

It could be "Down Trinidad" or "Sing Sonny Dor"??

My special interest here is the fact that it was collected by James Carpenter from a South Wales sailor.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 06:34 AM

At the back of my head I hear "Way down in Trinidad" as a chorus line. No doubt some of our shellbacks will recognize it before my addled brain does.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 06:38 AM

Here's a reference to a recording of "Down Trinidad"

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 07:31 AM

No luck with Google.

I noticed that someone posted a request for this a couple of years ago, no one replied...

Lets hope we do better this time


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:02 PM

Ryan's reference to the Chantey Cabin website does look promising - The Keelers from Newcastle (UK) are definitely singing this song. Love to get the words as well.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 01:40 PM

I have discovered a recording by the America Group, Forebitter. But it is difficult to understand the words from their recording.

Thank you lads for your efforts. I shall keep digging and I hope that someone will come up with the lyrics.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:46 PM

Might be Miss Lucy Loo a halyard shanty. Last chorus goes.

We're rolling down to Trinidad to see Miss Lucy Loo.

If this is it, it's in the DT & Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas.

I also seem to vaguely remember a different one that has the above mentioned "sing sonny dor" (sp?) but I can't get past all the cobwebs. Barry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:08 AM

There is a group called Calennig that has recorded several of the shanties collected by James Madison Carpenter. See their web page called Trade Winds. They give an email address. Maybe they can help you. There is more information about their albums on this page.

Volume 8, Issue 4 of The Folk Music Journal was all about Carpenter. It contains an article called "Here We Come Home in a Leaky Ship!" by Robert Young Walser, about those shanties. I suspect that's the same Bob Walser who recorded a CD called When Our Ship Comes Home, which contains (guess what!) a song called "Down Trinidad"! There is a 9:47 sample available of that CD, and it seems to contain about 30 seconds of each song. About 4:40 into the sample, you come to "Down Trinidad." I transcribed these lyrics:

O tell me master stevedore how you store your cargo
Way-ay-ay sing sunny door
O tell me master stevedore how you store your cargo
Bound down Trinidad to look for sunny door

Would you free me bully boys and burton in the archway?
Way-ay-ay sing sunny door
Would you free me bully boys and burton in the archway?
Bound down Trinidad to look for sunny door

But I transcribed them phonetically and I don't have a clue what they're talking about! But maybe someone else will be able to interpret or correct what I have written.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:01 AM

Isn't it marvellous? I have found the CD by Bob Walser and sure enough Jim - "Down Trinidad" is one of the tracks!

You can understand why it takes me so long to find things with the number of CD's I possess. Believe it or not I have around 2,000!!

By the way Calennig's album "Trade Winds" doesn't feature that particular shanty.

Anyway I shall play Bob's album and see if I can get the lyrics from there.

Cheers!

Dave R.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:31 AM

When you transcribe them, please post them here.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:46 AM

Will Do!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 05:26 PM

Skipper - which Forebitter recording did you find this song on? I can't find it on any of mine.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM

Charley,

Are you thinking of "Forebitter" from Liverpool?

The recording I have is of "Forebitter" of Mystic, Connecticut, US. That's Geoff Kaufman; Craig Edwards; Rick Spencer and David Littlefield.

The CD is entitled "Voyages".

Maybe Chantey Cabin has a copy?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 05:21 PM

Thanks, Skipper. I must have missed "Voyages." I was thinking in terms of the Mystic folks whom I know fairly well.


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Subject: Lyr Add: DOWN TRINIDAD
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:36 AM

Here's the words as collected by James Madison Carpenter & sung by Richard Warner.

DOWN TRINIDAD

Solo: Oh, massa stevedore, how you stow your coargo?
Chorus: Way sing Sunny Dore!
Solo: Oh, tell me massa stevedore, how you stow your coargo?
Chorus: Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunny Dore

Solo: Oh booch free me bully boys and burtoned in the archway
Chorus: Way sing Sunny Dore!
Solo: Oh booch free me bully boys and burtoned in the archway
Chorus: Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunny Dore

Solo: Oh Trinidad, oh Trinidad, The pretty little harbour
Chorus: Way sing Sunny Dore!
Solo: Oh Trinidad, oh Trinidad, The pretty little harbour
Chorus: Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunny Dore

Solo: What will you do with Sunny Dore, if you should ever find her?
Chorus: Way sing Sunny Dore!
Solo: What will you do with Sunny Dore, if you should ever find her?
Chorus: Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunny Dore

Solo: Oh, roll her in the grass me boys, and all amongst the clover
Chorus: Way sing Sunny Dore!
Solo: Oh, roll her in the grass me boys, and all amongst the clover
Chorus: Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunny Dore

The EFDSS very kindly got the copy to me.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 09:36 AM

Looks like a lot of fun to decode this one. Thanks, Madam Gashee!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: MMario
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 09:51 AM

could "burtoned" possibly be "burdened" - that would fit in with stowing the cargo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 10:06 AM

"burtoned in the archway" sounds very odd. Burton is possible, I suppose - or batten. Archway = hatchway?

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 03:22 PM

According to the Oxford Companion to Ships and the Sea, "A Burton is a special *purchase using three single blocks or two single blocks and a hook in which one *whip is needed to haul on the fall of the other, thus multiplying the power gained.

In sailing ship days it was used mainly to set up the shrouds of the mast so as to get them as taut as possible. It's not much used today except where a strong haul is required in a restricted space."

*Purchase - A mechanical device to increase power or force whether by means of levers, gears or blocks or pulleys.

*Whip - A single rope rove through a single block.

Now all we need to do is to find the definition of "Archway" as mentioned in the shanty, Down Trinidad.

But that's a bit above me, I'm afraid!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: MMario
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 03:28 PM

what about "booch"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 05:08 PM

By the way the lyrics above for "Down Trinidad" are very different from Hugil's "Miss Lucy Loo" which is also known as "Rollin' Down to Trinidad."

"'atchway" seems to me a likely correction for "archway."


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Subject: Tune Add: DOWN TRINIDAD
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 02:56 AM

I'm suprised that this hasn't been 'seagulled' (harvested)

Anyway, here's the tune, for anyone interested. (from the Folk Music Journal (1998 Vol 7, No. 4 p486)

In the same source, Carpenter is reported as commenting that the song had a...

...spontaneous rhythm, melody and [a] perfect naturalness of thought and expression. It seemed as nearly capable of singing itself as any chantey I know"

For anyone trying to fit the words to the tune, note that the word Way in the phrase 'Way sing Sunny Dore' lasts for six noes, from the dotted half A to the E. Sing starts on the half note D. The rest should be easy enough to follow.

Carpenter notes a (slight) melodic variation for the second verse, but I've not included it here.

Enjoy

JJ

Name: Down Trinidad

Start
0000 1 72 110 0336 0 72 000 0048 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 65 110 0336 0 65 000 0048 1 67 110 0336 0 67 000 0048 1 69 110 0528 0 69 000 0048 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 65 110 0160 0 65 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0336 0 62 000 0048 1 65 110 0160 0 65 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 69 110 0528 0 69 000 0048 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 65 110 0160 0 65 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 65 110 0160 0 65 000 0032 1 60 110 0336 0 60 000 0048 1 57 110 0336 0 57 000 0048 1 62 110 0336 0 62 000 0048 1 65 110 0336 0 65 000 0048 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 65 110 0160 0 65 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 64 110 0160 0 64 000 0032 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 62 110 0528 0 62 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the MIDItext software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:Down Trinidad
M:4/4
Q:1/4=140
K:C
c4c2A2|c2c2A4|c2c2A2G2|F4G4|A6G2|A2G2F2E2|
D4F2G2|A6c2|c2A2A2G2|F2G2A4|A2D2E2F2|C4A,4|
D4F4|AAA4G2|F2D2E2D2|D11/2||


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:53 PM

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to you all
Carpenter noted that
"it was widely sung in Barbados.
And that a burton is a term used for a block & tackle
used in hoisting, particularly among longshoremen.

A burton is certainly a single block & tackle which could be doubled or tripled to take a heavier load.
The main old harbour in Barbados, Bridgetown, is lined with warehouses now all trendy wine-bars & posh boutiques.

As to 'Booch free'
I have it on good authority that the 'booge' of a barrel is the widest part.
And that when the 'booge is free' that the bunge is easy to get to and the barrels aren't touching each other.

Another possible explanation for 'burtoned in the archway'
If a cask is stored athwartships (port to starboard not bow to stern!) it is said to be "a-burton"
It's not clear if the barrel was to be standing or lying for this position though.

Hope this has been helpful to anyone who might be interested!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:57 PM

Whoops! Missed out aline somewhere! The main old harbour in Barbados, Bridgetown, is lined with warehouses now all trendy wine-bars & posh boutiques.

AND
these are all housed in a single building under a row of tall arches...(maybe?)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:38 AM

Yes your findings, Madam Gashee seem to make sense of those elusive words, "Booch" and "Burton".

There was I thinking that "booch" related to a pooch (dog) as spoken by a person with a head cold!

The South Wales connection is that "Down Trinidad" was collected by James Carpenter from a Richard Warner when he visited Cardiff.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 07 Jul 02 - 06:21 AM

Could it be:-

"Boot free me bully boys and batten down the hatches" ?

Harry.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:20 AM

birch free mi bully boys and burtoned in the hatchway


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:26 AM

Madam Gashee, above, has certainly nailed this one.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: radriano
Date: 07 May 09 - 06:18 PM

Just to toot our horn a little bit, Peter Kasin and I (Richard Adrianowicz) recorded Down Trinidad on our first shanty duet album, Boldly from the Westward.

Radriano


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:50 PM

Radriano-

And very well done!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: Lyr Add: DOWN TRINIDAD (chantey)
From: GUEST,embozarth
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 09:38 AM

Folks,
I once obtained the lyrics and the explanation for this song from Geoff Kaufmann (Forebitter), and then promptly lost my music book. However, I think I can recreate them. I believe the 'burton in the archway' had something to do with the way that they stored the barrels in the hold of the ship to prevent them from rolling. Sonnydore is obviously a woman (or a metaphor for one). I have the recording. Spellings not withstanding, here are the lyrics.

DOWN TRINIDAD

Tell me mister stevedore, how you stow your cargo?
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
Tell me mister stevedore how you store your cargo?
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore

Chorus:
So boodgie free me bully boys, a burton in the archway
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
So boodgie free me bully boys, a burton in the archway
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore

Oh Trinidad, Oh Trinidad you pretty little harbor
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
Trinidad, Oh Trinidad you pretty little harbor
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore (Chorus)

What will you do with Sonnydore if ever you should find her
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
Roll her in the grass my boys, all among the clover
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore (Chorus)

Well tell me mister barber, how do you shave your customers?
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
I take 'em by the noses and scrape 'em on the chins-e-o
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore (Chorus)

So hoist her high, hoist her dry, roll me in the clover
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
The ships all right, the crew is tight, the captain's all in clover
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore (Chorus)

So tell me mister stevedore, how you stow your cargo?
Way-hay-hay sing Sunnydore
Tell me mister stevedore how you store your cargo?
Bound down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore - down Trinidad to look for Sunnydore!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM

Looks like a good explanation and transcription of this fine shanty.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:44 PM

Burton- (also barton) "A small tackle consisting of two or three blocks or pulleys used to set up or tighten rigging, or to shift heavy bodies. There are several varieties."

1704 in Harris, Lex. Technician
1769 in Falconer, Dict. Marine
1842 in Penny Cyclopaedia, The Spanish barton consists of two moveable wheels and one fixed wheel.
Other quotes.

Oxford English Dictionary.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 02:01 PM

Stowing a-burton:
Young, 1846, Nautical Dictionary "Casks are said to be stowed a-burton, when placed athwartships* in the hold."
*from side to side across the ship.
Found in phrases.org.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM

Q-

Yes, the second definition seems right on the money.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: shipcmo
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 08:55 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 10:51 PM

Sunnydore is pretty clearly a corruption of Shanadore or Shenendoah./


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 03:15 PM

What will you do with
"Sunny Dore, if ever you should find her?,
Roll her in the grass, me boys, And all amongst the clover......"
in version by Bob Walser and others.
See Google. A gal, not a place?

Words from Carpenter MS, verse 4 from Bolling MS:

Walser Down Trinidad


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: GUEST,Fritz Fitton, Fremantle, West Australia
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:24 AM

I'm a shanteyman from "Down Under" and have been singing "Down Trinidad" for years. Once you understand that "Sonny Daw" in sailors rhyming slang means "Whore" the chorus makes perfect sense. I sing "Boots free me Bully Boys unbuttoned in the alley. i.e Jack Tar is visiting a brothel (maybe Madame Gashees) and is taking off his sea boots in the alley outside in anticiption!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: GUEST,Fritz Fitton
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:40 AM

Sorry, I meant to write "unbuttoned in the archway"- not alley


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 Mar 11 - 01:41 AM

Fritz--

Cool interpretation -- a fun way to sing it indeed!

But as far as historical accuracy goes--not! :)

Not all sailor songs are about whores, and very few of the ones with Afro-American/Caribbean roots touch that subject, at least not in such a brazen way.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Down Trinidad (chantey)
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 Jul 11 - 08:38 PM

Compare this to one of Bullen's (1914) versions of "Shenandoah", which he learned, not as a deepwater song, but rather among stevedores in Guyana in the late 1860s.

4. Shenandoah

Oh Shenandoh my bully boy I long to hear you holler;
Way ay ay ay ay Shenandoh
I lub ter bring er tot er rum en see ye make a swoller;
Way ay ay ay Shenandoh!


My rendition (I don't think it's been sung elsewhere?)


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