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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Joe Offer Date: 31 May 22 - 07:07 PM Thank you, Henry. That's fascinating. If you'd like to send me a scan of Spiegl's page(s) on the song, I'd be glad to post it for all to see. joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,henryp Date: 31 May 22 - 02:26 PM Liverpool Packet No.1 - A Picture History of Liverpool & Merseyside, Liverpool Street Songs & Broadside Ballads. This is a wallet file containing a loose collection of facsimile reproductions of broadside publications (the forerunners of tabloid newspapers) assembled by Fritz Spiegl; salacious details of gory murders, tragedies, accidents, shipwrecks, etc. Published by Scouse Press, 1965, and still available from them. Spiegl was born in 1926 near the Hungarian border of Austria. His parents succeeded in leaving the country in 1939, eventually escaping to Bolivia while sending Fritz and his older sister to England. Eventually he went to London to work for an advertising agency. But he soon switched to music, taught himself to play the flute, enrolled at the Royal Academy of Music and, within a short time, became principal flautist with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, a position he kept for more than a decade. As a composer, Spiegl scored a popular success with the original theme from the TV series Z-Cars, based on "Johnny Todd", a Liverpool sea shanty. His BBC Radio 4 UK Theme, in which folk songs from each of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom are combined, was heard on Radio 4 at the beginning of each morning's broadcasting from November 1978 until April 2006. |
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Subject: Version: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Joe Offer Date: 31 May 22 - 11:49 AM Here's Henry's 2015 post, which came from another thread. I think it's the closest to authentic that's been posted here at Mudcat. But I'm not sure I completely understand Henry's sources. If I understand Henry correctly, the lyrics and background information come from a book titled Liverpool Packet No.1 - A Picture History of Liverpool & Merseyside, from a chapter titled "Liverpool Street Songs & Broadside Ballads." Thread #14342 Message #3701563 Posted By: GUEST,henryp 13-Apr-15 - 11:09 AM Thread Name: Seth Davy / Davey info please Subject: RE: Seth Davey
Liverpool Packet No.1 - A Picture History of Liverpool & Merseyside |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: pattyClink Date: 31 May 22 - 10:46 AM Agree with Nigel and Henry. It seems the most credible 'taped from the horse's mouth' version is the one henryp posted in 2015. If we could sort out the extra-line issue. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,henryp Date: 31 May 22 - 07:06 AM Beggars Bush is the site of the former Beggars Bush Barracks on Haddington Road in the inner southern suburbs of Dublin. So the Irish have appropriated this song! The original location was Bevington Bush in Liverpool. And the song had several references to Liverpool. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Nigel Parsons Date: 31 May 22 - 06:35 AM Joe, that version appears to just be a version re-written to remove any reference to 'actual places', or any use of 'local idiom'. As a song that can be sung anywhere it makes sense, but that is not the 'folk process', rather commercialisation. (in my opinion) |
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Subject: ADD Version: Whiskey on a Sunday(from Danny Doyle) From: Joe Offer Date: 30 May 22 - 05:26 PM We have several interesting threads on this song. I marked this one as the "origins" thread, but there is good information in several other threads. I'm not convinced we've found a definitive version of this song. The Digital Tradition lyrics appear to come from the Irish Rovers recording about Seth Davy with marionettes on strings. Here's my transcription of the recording by Danny Doyle, which has some significant differences from the DT/Irish Rovers version - and "limberjack" style dolls dancing on a board. WHISKEY ON A SUNDAY (as sung by Danny Doyle) (Glyn Hughes) CHORUS: Come day, go day, wish in my heart it was Sunday, Drinking buttermilk all the week, Whisky on a Sunday. He sits on the corner of Beggars Bush, Astride of an old packing case, And the dolls on the end of the plank were dancing, As he crooned with a smile on his face. CHORUS His tired old hands drummed the wooden beam, And the puppets they danced up and down, A far better show than you ever would see, In the fanciest theatre in town. CHORUS But in 1902 old Seth Davy died, His song it was heard no more, The three dancing dolls in the dustbin were thrown, And the plank went to mend the back door. CHORUS Well, on some stormy night if you're passing that way, With the wind blowing up from the sea, You can still hear the songs of old Seth Davy, As he croons to his dancing dolls three. SING CHORUS TWICE, FADING DURING 2ND. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Dottyliz Date: 24 Oct 17 - 11:46 AM Have just read the history of Seth Davy. As a family in Liverpool my cousin Albert Kennedy sang this song and we all joined in. I have a Dancing Dinah, still in its original box, slightly battered. The box says The Rage of 1934, the year I was born ! She and I perform every New Year and our friends love it ! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Tattie Bogle Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:28 PM Just wondered which spirit he was drinking? (Whiskey: Irish or American, or Whisky: Scotch!?) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:11 AM From Stan Kelly via Liverpool Writers; none of the links seem to work. Has says, "Glyn Hughes wrote Seth Davey. I was dere at de time, like. He died very young".??? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Brakn Date: 09 Sep 17 - 08:25 AM You're probably right. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 09 Sep 17 - 08:07 AM Brakn, possibly it is a reflection of the reliability of census data collection at that time. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 17 - 08:05 AM Many Thanks to Freddy Headey. The trail goes cold; it's known that he existed but seems to have left no trail other than the fine song. Another thread implied that his Glyn Hughes name was a pseudonym. People are also confusing the issue with talk of another Glyn Hughes who was a Yorkshire Author & Poet but he had a much longer innings. Tantalising mystery to me that someone with all that talent passed away at such a young age. Anyone got any further clues about Glyn Hughes? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: SPB-Cooperator Date: 09 Sep 17 - 08:01 AM looking through all three threads the versions seem to be contributor's recollections. Is there a version which is authenticated as Glyn Hughes' original song. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Brakn Date: 09 Sep 17 - 05:20 AM Looked in the 1901/1891 census for Liverpool for any Seth Davey/Davys, for any Seths and for any Davy/Daveys. Didn't find anything. Perhaps that was not his name. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 08 Sep 17 - 03:16 PM I recall singing Seth Davy" at Cyril Tawney's Plymouth club in 1967, and being surprised that nobody knew the song. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:44 PM From: GUEST,bradfordian - PM Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:33 PM Seth Davy Picture --Click Thanks Ian, And just to add some confirmation, in the background of the picture, clearly shown (with name sign) the Bevington House Hotel |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Sol Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:40 PM Guest "bradfordian" beat me to it, with a better link as well. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Sol Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:36 PM Here's Seth Davy in action. Seth Davy As far as I know Glyn Hughes was a Liverpool journalist. FWIW, Scotty Road = Scotland Road (where Cilla Black came from). |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,bradfordian Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:33 PM Seth Davy Picture --Click |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: FreddyHeadey Date: 08 Sep 17 - 12:13 PM Mick, there isn't much but see these other two threads Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday thread.cfm?threadid=91115#2421484 & Who is/was Glyn Hughes thread.cfm?threadid=33415#2608823 ~~~~~~~~~ 'glyn hughes' in the "Lyrics & Knowledge Search" box up in the top right corner will get you loads of hits but those seem to be the main threads mentioning him |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Mick Date: 08 Sep 17 - 11:00 AM Any additional info please on Glyn Hughes himself? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 21 Jun 13 - 06:46 PM breezy, what is the relevance of your offensive comment about the Irish? Would you rather Irish people didn't sing this song for some reason? There is a major connection between Ireland and Liverpool for obvious reasons, so it would be very strange if each didn't sing the other's songs. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: breezy Date: 21 Jun 13 - 04:04 PM I heard that the date in the song 1905 was not the year of Seth's death but was used because it rhymes. I thought it was 1903 but I dont really know, but it was not 1905 B****y Nickemall Iris sh !! ;-] Saw Jackie and Bridie perform this at the Troubadour mid 60s got their vynil too Spinners popularised this song so give em some credit otherwise Rolf 'Tie me Kanga down ' would never have sung it . When i visited Blackpool in 1990 a busker in the market worked such dolls with his feet |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,94Mikej Date: 21 Jun 13 - 10:00 AM Pic of Seth Davy at Bevington Bush, Liverpool (from a lantern slide, circa 1900) (click) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 17 Apr 13 - 05:53 PM Thanks Snuffy- that's fascinating, as is the rest of that site! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Snuffy Date: 17 Apr 13 - 03:20 AM Apparently Dan Lowry (of Whip Jamboree fame) was also associated with Bevington Bush. According to the newspaper report shown here Liverpool Mercury, January 16th 1864 In the neighbourhood of Vauxhall Rd and Scotland Rd, and the immediate streets less damage was sustained. A house in Marlborough St, Scotland Rd, had the windows shattered. At the music hall "Dan Lowry's Music Saloon" Bevington Bush, a large plate glass window was broken, several of the pieces scattered on the pavement beneath. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 16 Apr 13 - 07:11 PM LIVERPOOL GREAT – Seth Davy |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 16 Apr 13 - 06:44 PM Snuffy, the place came first- see this page: LIVERPOOL'S GHOST STREETS: BEVINGTON BUSH: In the middle of the 18th century, however, the fields around here were gold and green. Bevington Bush was a hamlet hunkered within a thickly wooded hill. The 'bush', was a patch of elevated land on which a profitable crop of corn grew. In 'A History of Corn Milling' ...Bevington Bush is listed as having four windmills in 1768. ... The tower of the most northerly mill was demolished in the 1960s.... Two centuries ago Bevington Bush was a pastoral idyll. City merchants used to enjoy nothing better, on a Sunday afternoon, than to stroll from the industry of town to the open fields of Bevington Bush – the first village on the road to Preston. They chose their route well. For Bevington Bush was home to a popular inn, perfectly placed for that reviving Sunday afternoon session..... In his book Liverpool: Our City – Our Heritage, (pub: Bluecoat Press) historian Freddie O'Connor reveals that "…In 1760, half a mile from St Patrick's Cross (in what's now Great Crosshall Street) along Bevington Bush Road was an inn called simply The Bush, which became a favourite haunt for folk to travel out into the country, to the Bevy Inn, as it became fondly known." And before you say anything – no, that's not why we say we're going for a bevvy. Obviously. Although 'The Bevvy' does get a mention in another book: Recollections of Old Liverpool (pub: Echo Press, Middlesex), "The sailors were very fond of going to the Bevington Bush Inn, or The Bevvy, with their sweethearts, and many a boisterous scene have I witnessed there. The view was really beautiful from the gardens…. Along the Scotland Road were cornfields, meadows and gardens…" The gardens didn't last long. With the opening of Scotland Road the ancient hamlet of Bevington Bush soon became surrounded by our ever-growing city. But the inn remained – even adding its own brewery, Hallsal Seager and Co, in 1834. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Snuffy Date: 16 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM Bevington Bush is still a street in Liverpool 3 off Scotland Road (53.41542 -2.98363), but there isn't much left there now. Was the pub named after the street, or vice-versa? |
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Subject: Version: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST Date: 16 Apr 13 - 10:25 AM Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday
He sat on the corner of Bevington Bush, |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Don Meade Date: 12 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM Here's the photo of Seth Davey: http://aliverpoolfolksongaweek.blogspot.com/2011/08/21-seth-davy.html |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Tom Campbell Date: 12 Feb 12 - 06:27 PM I learned this from a guy in the Fox & Vivian folk club in Leamington Spa in the 1970's. Sep Davey. He sat on the corner of Bebbington Bush Astride of an old packing case And the dolls on the end of a plank went dancing as he crooned with a smile on his face. Chorus: Come day go day, wishing me heart for Sunday, Drinking Buttermilk all the week Whisky on a Sunday. His tired old hand beat the wooden seat and the puppet dolls they danced so gear, A better show than you never have seen At the Pivvy or New Brighton Pier Chorus. Well in 1905, old Sep Davey died And his songs was heard no more And the three dancing dolls In a jowlie was ended And the plank went to mend a back door. Chorus. Now on cold stormy nights Down Scottie Road way When the wind howls up from the sea You can still hear the voice of old Sep Davey As he croons to his dancing dolls three. Chorus. Gear = Good Jowlie = Dustbin Pivvy = The Pavilion Theatre Scottie Road = Scotland Road |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Graham Sugdon Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:46 PM i was playing/ singing whiskey on a Sunday in a pub in St Abbs in 1976 after i finished a man came to me thanked me for my rendition of the song and introduced me to his elderly mother who could remember sitting and watching Seth Davy . My father Bernard (1926 - 2007)made a dancing doll and used to have it dancing whilst i sang and played at family gatherings . i still perform this song today and always enjoy the song, my fathers doll is residing in the loft and has never been dancing since he died . |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,ChrisJBrady Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM Folks may be interested in my new page: http://chrisbrady.itgo.com/jigdolls/jigdolls.htm Chris B. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,ChrisJBrady Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:31 AM Quote "I did mention in another thread on this song Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday that the late Fritz Spiegl had found an old magic lantern slide showing a street scene outside the Bevington Bush Hotel from the late 19th century. This shows an elderly black man seated on some sort of box playing a set of jig dolls on a plank and surrounded by children. I've now seen the original slide which is labelled "Davy" and I hope to be able to publish it soon with the owner's consent. I'm sure that Glyn Hughes must have seen this slide, or a picture based on it, when he wrote the song since the scene exactly matches the first verse:- "He sat at the corner of Bevington Bush Astride an old packing case And the dolls on the end of his plank went dancing As he crooned with a smile on his face." Matthew Edwards" Unquote. I wonder if there is a view of this slide on the web please, or did it ever get published? Many thanks - Chris B. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Big Elk Date: 30 Jun 09 - 12:24 PM If she is still with us try and contact Jackie Mc Donald who used to be 1/2 of Jackie and Bridie. 4 years ago she was involved with the Chester Folk Club. She is a walking encyclopedia |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Brakn Date: 30 Jun 09 - 08:38 AM I get the feeling that his real name was not "Seth Dav(e)y" He doesn't appear on the 1901 census and no-one is registered as dying called that name around that period. There is a Thomas Henry Davies born West Indies in 1860 living as a pauper in Toxteth Park Workhouse in 1901. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Matthew Edwards Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:33 AM Thanks to Chrissie, vectis and Noreen for reviving this topic. There are several threads discussing the song, and it seems to be a matter of luck as to which one turns up in a Google or other search. As I live in Bebington in Wirral I can state that there isn't any location known as "Bebington Bush", and to the best of my knowledge there never has been. As a mainly suburban area it wouldn't have been a prime spot for a street entertainer to work. So far as I've been able to discover all the memories of Seth Davy are associated with Liverpool, and although the song does mention New Brighton Pier I haven't yet seen any evidence that Seth Davy performed there. The "Pivvy" could be a reference to the Pavilion, but some singers sing the words as "Tivvy" - a reference to the Tivoli Palace of Varieties in Lime Street, Liverpool. I did mention in another thread on this song Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday that the late Fritz Spiegl had found an old magic lantern slide showing a street scene outside the Bevington Bush Hotel from the late 19th century. This shows an elderly black man seated on some sort of box playing a set of jig dolls on a plank and surrounded by children. I've now seen the original slide which is labelled "Davy" and I hope to be able to publish it soon with the owner's consent. I'm sure that Glyn Hughes must have seen this slide, or a picture based on it, when he wrote the song since the scene exactly matches the first verse:- "He sat at the corner of Bevington Bush Astride an old packing case And the dolls on the end of his plank went dancing As he crooned with a smile on his face." Matthew Edwards |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 29 Jun 09 - 07:32 AM You can interpret it any way you like, Chrissie (as many people do!) but the orginal words say Bevington Bush. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: vectis Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:30 AM I thought the line read The palais or New Brighton Parade. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Chrissie Date: 28 Jun 09 - 10:22 AM Seeing as though the song mentions the Pavvy (New Brighton (Floral)pavilion), and New brighton pier, could the frist line also be interpreted as Bebington Bush - thus aligning it more to Wirral? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,John Forrest Liverpool Date: 12 May 09 - 04:52 PM A wonderful song, Rolf Harris sings it with the doll on you tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl96bDSvL-g&t=74s. Incidentally Going for a "Bevvy" has nothing to do with the song, it means going for a beverage. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: Matthew Edwards Date: 12 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM According to the Scouse Press website copies of Liverpool Packet No.1 Liverpool Street Ballads, Broadsides and Sea Songs etc are still on sale for the very reasonable price of £2.45 plus postage. Since Malcolm's copy was missing the text of Seth Davey with the illustration of the Bevington Bush street scene, I'm not sure whether the current edition includes this, but the Packet is still good value for money. In the meantime I have emailed the Scouse Press to ask if the original lantern slide depicting Seth Davey is still in their possession. I'll report back here if and when I get a reply. Matthew Edwards |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: Matthew Edwards Date: 12 Jan 09 - 05:25 AM >>>>Anything factual about Seth Davy anywhere? As a street entertainer Seth Davey/Davy must have led a fairly marginal existence, and I haven't been able to trace him so far in Census or other official records. I'd expect there to be a death certificate from around 1900-1905, but he might have been recorded under a different version of his name. Given that the historian of Liverpool's Black community, Ray Costello, has described Seth as a West African in Black Liverpool: The Early History of Britain's Oldest Black Community 1730-1918, while other accounts have descibed Seth as Jamaican, Malcolm asked if there is a dispute about his birthplace. To which I can only say that there is as yet no firm evidence to go on for either place; we are relying on people's memories of what they heard from their parents and grandparents and other older people. All the same I expect Ray Costello's information has some substance to it. Glyn Hughes, who wrote the song in the first place, never knew Seth Davey but only learned the story from the memories of older people so some of the 'facts' in the song may be wrong. Its possible that there are some more facts to be uncovered in the Liverpool archives, or that the local papers may contain some other memories, but it may take some time before they turn up. Matthew Edwards |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 11 Jan 09 - 09:14 PM Anything factual about Seth Davy anywhere? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 11 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM That's what I had always assumed, Nigel- but it could just as well be the other- do you have any evidence? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM Noreen: I think you'll find that Bevvy is a shortened form of Beverage. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:58 AM The recent resurrection of another thread on this song reminds me that the information Matthew mentions isn't in my copy of Liverpool Packet No 1: is the attribution wrong, or is there a sheet missing from mine? Is the photograph reproduced anywhere? Also, Matthew quotes Ray Costello as describing Seth Davy as 'West African': was 'West Indian' (for 'Jamaican') meant, or is there some dispute as to his place of birth? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:57 AM The trouble with songs that are discussed over multiple threads is that few people bother to read the other ones, so the same questions and answers tend to be repeated and the same ground covered over and over again; not least when an old discussion like this one is revived after six years of merciful oblivion by somebody with nothing new to say. Such people tend to resurrect the least informative thread available, of course. There is more information about Davy himself in other threads (see links above) including the fact that Fritz Spiegl reckoned to have seen a photograph of him. See Matthew Edwards' post in Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Noreen Date: 09 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM I've only ever heard it completely in 3/4. ...Bevington Bush which had an inn called simply the Bush, which became a favourite haunt for folk to travel out into the country, to the Bevy Inn... Hence, going for a Bevy?! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM "The song is about a well-known Jamaican street entertainer in Liverpool in the 1890s/1900s ... " Was Seth Davy black, then? Chances are... |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: banjoman Date: 09 Jan 09 - 07:43 AM I have known this song a long time, and when I first learnt it I remember my Mum telling me that her Grandmother had related how she had seen a man with dancing dolls outside the Bevington Bush pub which stood on the junction of bevington Bush and Scotland Road - I remember that - so it probably confirms the date suggested by White Canary. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Dave MacKenzie Date: 08 Jan 09 - 08:02 PM I was told that Bevington Bush was the site of the old Liverpool Sally Army Hostel. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,White Camry Date: 08 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM "The song is about a well-known Jamaican street entertainer in Liverpool in the 1890s/1900s ... " Was Seth Davy black, then? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: Mr Happy Date: 08 Jan 09 - 11:00 AM So clearly, the DT version is off the mark as it mentions strings being pulled to work the dolls. The plank or wooden beam isn't referred to at all |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Bernard Date: 14 Dec 08 - 07:36 PM I've always done both entirely in 3/4... Bill the Sound... don't let Manitas hear you say that! I had the temerity to post a link to a website... it seems that someone had already mentioned the Glyn Hughes connection... sshhh!! ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,Bill the sound Date: 14 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM I found this track on a Max Boyce album, The Miles and the Roads he gives credit to Glyn Hughes, I hope he's right. Bill |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Dec 08 - 07:27 PM I never bothered to think about it but isn't part of it 4/4 and part 3/4? I, however, do "the WIld Mountain Thyme" in 4/4. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Bernard Date: 14 Dec 08 - 06:35 PM Uhh?!! |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Joybell Date: 14 Dec 08 - 04:56 PM Does anyone else keep falling into 3/4 time while singing this song, or is it just me? |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 Dec 08 - 08:38 AM It occurs to me that the ranges of local words to this song is supportive of the Karpeles defintion. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: scouse Date: 14 Dec 08 - 07:56 AM I learn these words over on the "posh." side. i.e. The one eyed city!! His tired old hands drummed wooden beams And the puppet Dolls they danced the gear A better show ever, that you would see At the Tivvie (Tivoli) or New Brighton Pier An on some stormy night down "Scotty." road way When the wind's blows up from the sea You can still hear the sound of old Seth Davy As he croons to his dancing dolls three. As Aye, Phil. |
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Subject: RE: Origin: Ballad of Seth Davy / Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,DESI Date: 14 Dec 08 - 07:28 AM As an Irish singer who performs this song, I can confirm that indeed it's not an Irish song at all, but as most people point out it stems from Liverpool where there was a real street entertainer named Seth Davel. Many somgs get 'adopted' by my country folk and Seth Davely has the sound of a good Irish song, bit like Dirty Old Town who many Irish and English believe to be Irish, in fact the 'dirty old town' in question refers to the home town of the writer Ewan Mc'coll, Salford near Manchester. It's a cedit to Glyn Hughes writing skills that many including myself originally thought it to be a much older traditional song, I'll be singing Seth Davey tonight 14/12/08 as it happens Desi, the artist formerly known as, who? |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: GUEST,Rich Date: 13 Nov 08 - 03:34 PM For info, from www.fsc.org Whisky on a Sunday, AKA Come Day, Go Day, AKA Seth Davy was written in the 1960s by Glyn Hughes. Hughes was born in Liverpool in 1932 and died there in 1972. During his brief life he had many occupations: journalist, short-story writer, bookseller's assistant, musician in a circus, film extra, hotel liftman and song writer, to mention only a few. The song is about a well-known Jamaican street entertainer in Liverpool in the 1890s/1900s and has been recorded by among others The Dubliners, The Irish Rovers and Rolf Harris. Gerry Jones, Liverpool singer, says: "Seth Davy was a real person, he really existed, and he died a couple of years into the 20th century. There was a street and a pub, both called Bevington Bush just north of Liverpool City Centre, and Seth Davy did do a busking act outside. "In his book Liverpool: Our City - Our Heritage, Freddie O'Connor tells us that in 1760, half a mile from Marybone (St Patrick's Cross) along Bevington Bush Road was a hamlet named Bevington Bush which had an inn called simply the Bush, which became a favourite haunt for folk to travel out into the country, to the Bevy Inn, as it became fondly known. With the opening of Scotland Road, the ancient Bevington Bush Road became a minor road amidst the massive slum district that would soon engulf it. As the district was built up it also lost its original name. "Please do not be taken in by any Irish versions of this song, or any reference to "Bebbington". Bebington is "over the water" - not in Liverpool at all. I know the truth for a fact because, when I was a brand-new teacher in the Dingle in 1963, our old lollypop man told me that he had actually seen Seth Davy doing his stuff. So I have spoken to a first-hand witness. "I have heard that Seth Davy's own singing was a non-too-wonderful monotone, and not the pleasant melody that was written about him in the 60s folk boom." |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: GUEST,machree01 Date: 13 Nov 08 - 06:18 AM I have a Danny Doyle album, called "Whiskey On A Sunday" {1968} the song remained at No. 1 in the Irish charts for 10 weeks. |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: GUEST,Jake Date: 12 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM The Houghton Weavers did a terrific version of this song. It's sang beautifully and the melody is lovely. |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: SINSULL Date: 12 Nov 08 - 03:30 PM Mr. Happy, if a song is good, it doesn't matter when it was written. Share it. |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Mr Happy Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:55 AM Its a little disappointing to find that many've the songs I'd thought old & traditional were actually composed in the 1960s & 70s |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: John MacKenzie Date: 12 Nov 08 - 07:12 AM Jig Dolls. JM |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Manitas_at_home Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:50 AM ...and not Glyn Hughes as credited in the first couple of postings then? |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Bernard Date: 12 Nov 08 - 06:37 AM According to this site the writer was Glyn Hughes... |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Mr Happy Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:41 AM ps not the kind with strings. The dolls were wooden with jointed limbs, had a stick in their backs, & the puppeteer sat on the stave & banged it with a fist, so that the dolls danced a sort've tapdance! |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Mr Happy Date: 12 Nov 08 - 04:38 AM Jackie & Bridie used to do this song & had dolls dancing on a wooden stave as accompaniment |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Arkie Date: 11 Nov 08 - 10:50 PM The lyrics above indicate that the dolls were puppets worked by strings. My recollection of the song referred to the dancing dolls mentioned above which are also called Limberjims here in the Arkansas Ozarks. |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: breezy Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:18 PM nobody has mentioned the Spinners, till now, who may be able throw further light on the subject. Any Spinners out there? |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: GUEST,manda Date: 11 Nov 08 - 04:03 PM The song was written in liverpool - but changed to suit the irish |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: Matthew Edwards Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:22 PM Its nice to see this topic revived, and the discovery by Jim Dixon of the Daniel Emmit song confirms that the chorus is a lot older than the Ballad of Seth Davy, as Greg Stephens suggested on another thread about the song. Glyn Hughes was a folk singer in Liverpool in the late 50's and 60's who died quite young, and it seems that he wrote this song about 1959 after hearing stories about Seth Davy from older people who remembered seeing him. Glyn Hughes recorded the song for Fritz Spiegl about 1959, and amazingly, some years later, Fritz Spiegl discovered some old lantern slides of Liverpool scenes one of which featured a group of children watching a black man in a bowler hat making some wooden dolls dance on a plank. The scene can definitely be identified as being outside the Bevington House Hotel in Liverpool. All this information comes from the late Fritz Spiegl's Liverpool Street Songs and Broadside Ballads published by the Scouse Press as Liverpool Packet No 1. Seth Davy is also mentioned by Ray Costello in Black Liverpool: The Early History of Britain's Oldest Black Community 1730-1918 as "another black street entertainer...a West African often seen in the Scotland Road area of the city accompanying his cheerful songs with a dancing puppet show." The Black community in Liverpool has made a substantial contribution to the musical and cultural life of the city (and the world) which is only belatedly being acknowledged. Seth Davy, like Billy Waters earlier on in London, was a street entertainer who deserves celebrating. Some other Liverpool black musicians include the jazz musician Gordon Stretton, the 60's soul singers Joe and Eddie Ankrah of the Chants, and the great Cavern singer Derry Wilkie. |
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Subject: Lyr. Add: MASSA IS A STINGY MAN (minstrel, 1841) From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:09 PM "Massa Is a Stingy Man," composed and sung by R. W. Pelham and pupil Master G. W. Pelham (The Little Ace of Spades). Firth & Hall, NY, 1841. Indiana Univ. Sheet Music Collections. Lyr. Add: MASSA IS A STINGY MAN G. W. Pelham, 1841 Old master is a stingy man and ebry body nowes it, He keeps good brandy in his house and neber sez here goes it. (Dance inserted by the Pelhams) 2 Mr.: Unkel John he came to toun he had a load of Peaches Masr.: The wagon broke down he slipt and mashed dem all to pieces, 3 Mr.: A strayed dog he come to town and had on calaco trouses Masr.: He swore he could not see the town dar was so many houses. 4 Mr.: My sister sal she dremt a dream she dremt she was a jumping Masr.: She tort she eat a musharoon as big as any pumpkin. 5 Mr.: And then she went to climb a tree and two or three to boost her Masr.: And dar she sot a flinging corn on our bob tail rooster. 6 Mr.: Now far you well my sally dear and far you well my honey Masr.: Far you well my dearest love I am going to make some money. The changes in these songs seem capricious, but they were constantly modified to suit different audiences and to avoid repetition at succeeding performances, and when they were 'borrowed' by different troupes. In 1943, Firth and Hall included it in a folio of Ethiopian Quadrilles, with Lucy Long, Old Dan Tucker, De Boatman Dance, and Ginger Blue. (Virginia Minstrels given on the title page). Musical scores only, no lyrics. In the Lester Levy collection. Also in 1843, "Come Day, Go Day" was the title used by Buckley's Minstrels. http://www.circushistory.org/Cork/BurntCork3.htm "Massa Is ..." appears in a MS of 48 tunes collected by Dan Emmett, dating c. 1845-1860. They are discussed in a paper by Hans Nathan, "Early Banjo Tunes and American Syncopation," The Musical Quarterly, vol. 42, no. 4, pp. 455-472 (not seen, first page at jstor.org). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whiskey on a Sunday From: GUEST,machree01 Date: 24 Aug 08 - 09:21 AM I have Whiskey On A Sunday - Danny Doyle 1968 LP, Danny is great at singing it, a briiliant album 12 songs in all. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: COME DAY GO DAY or MASSA IS A STINGY MAN From: Jim Dixon Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:02 PM Marsh, Richard. Marsh's Selection, or Singing for the Million, Containing the Choicest and Best Collection of Songs Ever Embodied in One Work, New York: Richard Marsh, 1854, page 92: COME DAY, GO DAY. OR MASSA IS A STINGY MAN. Sung with everlasting shouts of applause by the renowned old Dan Emmit. 1. Oh, massa is a stingy man, And all his neighbors knows it, He keeps good whiskey in his house, An neber says, here goes it. CHORUS: Sing come day, go day, God send Sunday, We'll drink whiskey all de week, And buttermilk o' Sunday. 2. A stray dog come to town, 'Pon a bag of peaches, De horse run off an he fell down, And mashed 'em all to pieces. Fala du, fala du da du da la, Fula du fala du lala du la du la. 3. Hoe cotton, dig corn, Den we feed de niggies, An oh, lord Moses, What a luscious time for niggas. 4. Black Jen's got a holler tooth An says it's always aching, But when she puts de hoe cake in, Den it stops a plaguing. 5. Oh, missus says we eat too much. An wear out too much trowses. She'll make us feed on atmosphere. And dress in nature's blowses. 6. She sent consumption Joe one night. Tobacco leaf to kiver, It made him sneeze out de moonlight. An cough away his liver. 7. Oh, massa loves to hug de gals, And missus doesn't knows it. But as I like de angels too, I believe I won't exclose it, 8. Oh, missus says we shouldn't eat, Kase we don't work a Sunday, But natur keeps digestion's mill, A-goin as well as Monday. 9. Massa sich a stingy man, I no more ketch him possum. I roast and eat him in de wood, And den I swear I loss him. 10. Old Jake went out to shoot, And when de gun it go off, It kick his right ear out o' joint. Den fall and smash his toe off. |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Hrothgar Date: 09 Feb 02 - 04:51 AM I know the dolls as "nimblejacks." |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Raggytash Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:27 AM A dancing doll is a wooden manikin pivoted at the shoulders, hips and knees, held by a thin rod about 18 inched long drilled into it's back. It is made to dance by placing it on a 4 x 24 inch thin plank which is then drummed with the fingers causing the doll to "dance" The second verse in the version I know goes "his tired old drummed a wooden beam, and the puppets dolls they danced the gear, a far better show than you ever did see, at the Pavvy on New Brighton Pier. This again would indicate the Liverpool connnection |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Joan from Wigan Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:14 AM Out of curiosity, I've just been looking on the web for Beggars Bush and Bevington Bush. The former is apparently in Dublin, while Bevington Bush was/is in Liverpool: "the name of a thickly wooded valley between Bevington Hill and Everton Hill. An inn on Bevington Hill was called 'The Bush'." The area has not been 'thickly wooded' for many many years, but the area fits. As the version of the song quoted in the DT is that sung by the Irish Rovers, perhaps they changed the location to suited their Irish origins? Joan |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Joan from Wigan Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:03 AM There are two previous threads: Seth Davy info please and Whisky on a Sunday. The version I know is the same as that quoted by roopoo in the first of the above links, and is the one sung by most if not all of my fellow Liverpudlians. Joan (originally from Liverpool) |
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Subject: RE: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Barry Finn Date: 08 Feb 02 - 08:17 PM I think there was quite a nice thread on this some time ago. Good luck, Barry |
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Subject: Lyr Add: WHISKEY ON A SUNDAY (Glyn Hughes) From: Joan from Wigan Date: 08 Feb 02 - 03:32 PM WHISKEY ON A SUNDAY (Glyn Hughes) He sits in the corner of old Beggar's Bush On top of an old packing crate He has three wooden dolls that can dance and can sing And he croons with a smile on his face CHORUS Come day go day Wish in my heart it were Sunday Drinking buttermilk through the week Whiskey on a Sunday His tired old hands tug away at the strings And the puppets dance up and down A far better show than you ever would see In the fanciest theatre in town And sad to relate that old Seth Davy died In nineteen-oh-four The three wooden dolls in the dustbin were laid His song will be heard nevermore But some stormy night when you're passing that way And the wind's blowing up from the sea You'll still hear the song of old Seth Davy As he croons to his dancing dolls three I don't know if this is the original version or not - I remember from years ago a singer telling us that Seth Davy actually died in 1902, and I always sing that date in the version I do (which isn't the above, by the way). This version is from a website which gives lots of information about Dancing Dolls. Joan |
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Subject: DT Correction: Whiskey on a Sunday (Glyn Hughes) From: MMario Date: 08 Feb 02 - 03:23 PM Whiskey on a sunday is attributed to Glyn Hughes in the DT WHISKEY ON A SUNDAY or COME DAY, GO DAY (from DT) (Glyn Hughes) Come day, go day Wish in my heart it were Sunday Drinking buttermilk thru the week Whiskey on a Sunday He sits in the corner of Bevvington Bush On top of an old packing case he has three wooden dolls that can dance and can sing And he croons with a smile on his face His tired old hands tug away at the strings And the puppets dance up and down A far better show than you ever would see In the fanciest theatre in town And sad to relate that old Seth Davy died In 1904 The three wooden doll in the dustbin were laid His song will be heard nevermore But some stormy night when you're passing that way And the wind's blowing up from the sea You'll still hear the song of old Seth Davy As he croons to his dancing dolls three Recorded by Irish Rovers @drink @death filename[ COMEDAY TUNE FILE: COMEDAY CLICK TO PLAY SOF
(Note from Joe Offer, 30 May 2022. It appears that the Digital Tradition lyrics are taken from the Irish Rovers recording, but a few words are different in the recording. Below is my transcription of the recording, but I'm not convinced that the Irish Rovers are a definitive source for the song) Irish Rovers Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI-THvHvZg0 WHISKEY ON A SUNDAY (from Irish Rovers) (Glyn Hughes) CHORUS Come day go day Wish in my heart it were Sunday Drinking buttermilk through the week Whiskey on a Sunday He sits on the corner of old Beggar's Bush On top of an old packing crate He has three wooden dolls that can dance and can sing And he croons with a smile on his face His tired old hands tug away at the strings And the puppets they dance up and down A far better show than you ever would see In the fanciest theatre in town And sad to relate that old Seth Davy died In nineteen-hundred-and-four The three wooden dolls in the dustbin were laid His songs will be heard nevermore But some stormy night when you're passing that way And the wind's blowing up from the sea You'll still hear the song of old Seth Davy As he croons to his dancing dolls three |
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Subject: Who Wrote The Ballad of Seth Davy From: Raggytash Date: 08 Feb 02 - 03:03 PM I would like to find who wrote the Ballad of Seth Davy and definitive words if possibly
He sat on the corner of Bevington Bush |
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