BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources

Subject: Alternatives to Marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:25 PM

Not wanting to have thread drift derail the "is this discrimination?" thread (especially the specific advice to the person posting part of it), I thought I would open up a new discussion for those who might be interested in the whys and wherefores of these things.

To start with, I titled the thread rather unoriginally, after the excellent website "Alternatives to Marriage Project" which is the best place to start on the subject I have found. It is very well balanced, offers excellent links, resources, etc. to the uninitiated and the experienced non-traditionally and unconventionally inclined person, seeking information. The website is found here:

http://www.unmarried.org/res.html

They provide these (among many other interesting statistics at the site):

Also from ATP site:

Sizzling Statistics

U.S. Marries More, Divorces More Than Europe

Given political movements to promote marriage in the United States, it is interesting to note that a new report shows the U.S. already has a far higher marriage rate than any country in the European Union. The report on marriage and divorce in the EU between 1989 and 1999 found that EU countries' marriage rate (number of marriages per 1,000 people) is 5.1, compared to 8.4 in the U.S. But the U.S.'s divorce rate is also much higher than the EU's: 4.2 compared to 1.8. The numbers suggest that the challenge is not how to convince more people to get married, but how to help people create healthy, stable relationships.

U.S. in Middle for Unmarried Birth Rate

In the United States, 33% of babies are born to unmarried parents. Contrary to popular opinion, we are not alone in this statistic -- in fact, many European countries have a higher portion of their babies born to unmarried people. Iceland (62%), Sweden (55%), Norway (49%), Denmark (45%), France (41%), the UK (39%) and Finland (39%) all have higher rates. The lowest rate of unmarried births in Europe were in Greece (4%), Italy (9%), and Switzerland (10%). You can read country-by-country data on both of the items above at http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/Public/datashop/print-product/EN?catalogue=Eurostat&product=1-12062001-EN-AP-EN&mode=download

Over a Quarter of American Adults Have Never Married

New Census data finds that in 2000, 31% of men and 25% of women ages 15 and over had never married. In a comparison of households with married couples versus unmarried different-sex partners, the Census finds that 46% of married couples have children under 18, and 41% of unmarried partner households do. Compared to married couples, unmarried male-female partners are more likely to have a woman with more education and who earns more than the man, more likely to have both partners employed, and more likely to be of different races. The report is available at http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam.html .

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:27 PM

Oops! I meant to include in the above, another wonderful on-line resource for what is sometimes called the polyamory movement, called the "Loving More" website:

http://www.lovemore.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:48 PM

some famous person..Mark Twain? has said (paraphrased), "Marry or don't...either way you will regret it"

The polyamory folk (I have chatted with a couple online)have mailing lists, newsletters, multiple WWW sites....and a WIDE variety of attitudes! *grin*..

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

You are chatting with a polyamorous person right now, BillD--did you think there wouldn't be any of us in a folk forum? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Amos
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:02 PM

Polyamorous? I never met her -- is she good looking? More important, can she cook?

(Duck and cover, fat head!! LOL!!)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:18 PM

Here is another way of looking at the marriage paradigm.

There was a show recently about "Starter Marriages." These were defined as the ones where the couple focus so much on the big wedding, and are so immature and ill-prepared for the realities and self-sacrifices of day-to-day marriage, that they end up divorcing when reality sets in, by year 5, and almost always before children are born.

The presenter said that one reason the divorce rate is so high is that so many people enter into marriage without a grounded sense of what the commmitment entails, or what one does to actually make it work-- compounded by our instant-fix society of today.

The people often go on later in life to marry again and for life-- having learned what's really involved, they are in better shape to make a commitment stick the second time around, and they choose partners who are aware of this as well.

The author who presented this said it had really helped to know, by making a study of this, that it happens a lot in our society today. She also said that it does not mean necessarily that one is subject to the same statistical probablilty of later failed marriages, as have been predicted in past generations' studies.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:36 PM

Susan,

I'm not trying to be contrary, but it seemed to me that your anecdotal evidence didn't jibe with what I had read about statistics for subsequent marriages. Here are the most extensive statistics I could find in a quick google search, from a Gen-ex website on divorce. According to the statistics here, 50% of first marriages end in divorce, and 60% of subsequent marriages end in divorce in the US, which seems to be the opposite of what you are saying here. If the statistics given here are correct, that would mean the majority of people marrying and divorcing more than once DON'T seem to be learning from their mistakes, but instead are repeating them.

U.S. Divorce Statistics (1997 except where noted)

Marriage & Divorce: Total divorces granted: 1,163,000 Rate per 1,000 population (1999): (excluding CA, CO, IN and LA) 4.1 State with the lowest divorce rate: Massachusetts. Rate per 1,000 population: 2.4 State with the higest divorce rate: Nevada. Rate per 1,000 population: 9.0 Current number of divorced adults (1998): 19,400,000 (9.8%) Median age at divorce: Males: 35.6 Females: 33.2 Median duration of marriage: 7.2 years Likelihood of new marriages ending in divorce: 43% Percentage of all householders who are unmarried (2000): 48% Percentage of weddings which are remarriages for at least one partner: 43% Percentage of first marriages that end in divorce: 50% Percentage of remarriages that end in divorce: 60% Estimated average cost of divorce: $15,000 Estimated average length of divorce proceedings: 1 year Adults married and living with one another in 1998: 110.6 million (56%) Adults between 25 and 34 years old never married in 1998: 14 million (35%) Percentage of African American adults in this age group never married in 1998: 53% Percentage of women 65 years old and over who were widows in 1998: 45% Percentage of elderly widows living alone in 1998: 70% Percentage of households occupied by one person in 2000: 26% Percentage of population (by area of US) who had never married in 1999: Midwest: 28% Northeast: 28% South: 26% West: 29% People (by gender) who had never married in 1998: Males: 58,633,000 (58% of men) Females: 59,333,000 (55% of women) People who were married in 1998: Males: 31,591,000 (31% of men) Females: 26,713,000 (25% of women) People who had been widowed in 1998: Males: 2,569,000 (2% of men) Females:11,029,000 (10% of women) People who were divorced in 1998: Males: 8,331,000 (8%) Females: 11,093,000 (10%) Median age at first marriage in 1998: Males: 26.7 Females: 25 Average age at first divorce: Males: 35 Females: 33 Average age of those divorcing from their second marriages: Males: 42 Females: 39 Interracial married couples in 1998: 1,348,000 Average age of marriage: Males: 28.7 Females: 25.9 Number of cohabiting couples in 1998: 4.2 million Number of people divorcing each year: 2.5 million Average length of first marriages which end in divorce: 11 years Drop in standard of living of females after divorce, as of 2000: 45% Number of women who are stalked by a husband or ex-husband every year: 380,000 Number of men who are stalked by a wife or ex-wife every year: 52,000 People aged 25 to 39 make up 60% of all divorces, as of 1993. To download a PDF file from the National Center for Health Statistics listing the number of marriages and divorces state-by-state, click here. Click here for a state-by-state ranking of divorce rates. Children/Single parents: Number of children in new divorces each year: 1 million Percentage of parents who had never married in 1998: Males: 35% Females: 42% Percentage of households which were family households in 1998: 69% Percentage of family households containing children under 18 in 1998: 49% Percentage of married householders with kids in 2000: 24% Percentage of family households with children with only one parent in 1998: 27% Percentage of all households run by single moms in 1999: 9% Number of adults living in a home maintained by one or both parents in 1998: 22 million Number of single parents in 1998: Males: 2.1 million (5% of parent-child families) Females: 9.8 million Estimated number of children involved in divorce: 1,075,000 Rate per 1,000 population children under 18 involved in divorce: 16.8 Children under 18 years of age living with just one parent in 1998: 20 million (28%) Percentage of children in single-parent homes living with their mother in 1998: 84% Percentage of children living with single parents for whom no other adults were present in the household in 1998: 56% Children under 18 living in the household of their grandparents in 1998: 4 million (6%) Total families in which the child lived with two parents: 25.6 million Total single fathers maintaining their own household: 1.68 million Total single fathers living in the home of a relative: 240,000 Total single fathers who were divorced: 920,000 Total single fathers who had never married: 640,000 Total single fathers who were separated: 260,000 Total single fathers raising one child: 1,220,000 Total single fathers raising three or more children: 200,000 Percentage of children (by race) living in two-parent households in 1998: White: 74% Black: 36% Hispanic: 64% Percentage of children living with one parent who lived with a divorced parent: 38% Percentage of children living with one parent who lived with a never-married parent: 35% Percentage of children living with one parent who lived with a separated parent: 19% Percentage of children living with one parent who lived with a widowed parent: 4% Percentage of children living with one parent whose spouse lived elsewhere because of business or some other reason: 4% Percentage of children in two-parent households whose parents were college graduates in 1998: 29% Percentage of children in single-parent households whose parents were college graduates in 1998: 9% Percentage of children with single parents (by gender) earning under $12,500 in 1998: Living with fathers: 17% Living with mothers: 41% Single-parent children living in metropolitan areas: 14.5 million Single-parent children living in cities with populations of 1 million or more: 9.2 million Percentage of births which were to unmarried women: 32% Percentage of same-sex female householders with kids in 1998: 17% For US Census Bureau data on child support for custodial parents, please click here. In 1996, children of divorce were 50% more likely than their counterparts from intact families to divorce. In 19 states reporting custody: 72% of custody were awarded to the wife, 9% were awarded to the husband. In 16% joint custody was awarded. Parents who are awarded and receive child support have higher incomes. Fatherless homes account for 63% of youth suicides, 90% of homeless/runaway children, 85% of children with behavior problems, 71% of high school dropouts, 85% of youths in prison, well over 50% of teen mothers. Miscellaneous: Women earning more than their husbands in 1998: 10.5 million Percentage of smokers who had been divorced: 49% Percentage of nonsmokers who had been divorced: 32% Percentage of divorces due to economic problems: 4.2% Percentage of divorces due to irreconcilable differences: 80% (Sources: U.S. Census Bureau, National Center for Health Statistics, Americans for Divorce Reform, Institue for Equality in Marriage, American Association for Single People, Ameristat, Public Agenda)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 01:50 PM

Yikes! Sorry about that--I thought the line breaks would work. Well, I think you can still get the drift.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 02:14 PM

For the above statistics, go here--it is much easier to read than what I quoted above!

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsUS.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:16 PM

What the presenter was talking about was a particular KIND of first marriage, and I only shared what her view was-- I make no comment on its validity or whether it's a good thing or not. Just another view.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 03:35 PM

This may be somewhat inappropriate on this thread (although definitely related). I just went to www.harrad2000.com which is author Robert H. Rimmer's (The Harrad Experiment, Proposition 31, etc.) to add to this thread and discovered that he passed away last August 1.

Bob was a social-sexual philosopher and believed in relationships, not institutions. His novels researched many alternative "marriage" situations. He and I corresponded in the 1970s but have been in only sporadic contact for a number of years. And now we can't be in touch at all. He used to send me books instead of flowers and was a major influence on my attitudes towards life and loving. I miss him.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 04:14 PM

"did you think there wouldn't be any of us in a folk forum? ;-)".....

of course not...*smile*...was just making an observation...folkies and sci-fi people are very broad-minded in general

and, Bat Goddess...I saw that about the death of Rimmer...I 'think' I read everything Rimmer ever wrote..(including a stupid book of reviews of porno films!!)...never did write to him, but he was the talk of the campus in the mid-60s.

(I have 2 books of letters from people who DID write to him..)...his bibliographies are worth the price of the books..

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 05:26 PM

Guest, Thanks for the info you posted on the last thread about discrimination. I have just recieved it, so I briefly went through it. I will check it out more throughly. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 05:41 PM

just out of curiosity, how do you know it was the same 'guest'?...style? ESP?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 09:10 PM

BillD,

I posted to RR in the other thread, telling her I had posted info here as well.

But I'm sure RR has psychic talents too!

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 02 - 11:37 PM

no doubt...that must be it!...

(hey...wait...I don't believe in those psychic things- It must be gremlins!)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: hesperis
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:44 AM

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH, not GREMLINS!

*readies all firespells to prevent the latest threat*

(Sorry, Bill D, you just made a stock joke from another forum I hang out in... It's too good an opportunity to pass up! ;) )

Ok, ok, going on topic now...

What is the purpose of marriage, really? I always felt it was to provide a stable structure for the raising of children, more than for any other reason. And we don't really need many more children in the world for the forseeable future, so why get married?

And for companionship and partnership in day-to-day life, well, you don't have to be married to give that.

The only other advantages I can see are tax advantages, but that's mostly because the government is trying to encourage marriage. Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 08:53 AM

You also don't need to be married to provide a stable structure for raising children either. The idea that the Anglo/Anglo American nuclear family is the only family structure which has been successful in the history of the world is pretty daft, but try telling that to the middle class masses.

As to why the government is trying to encourage marriage, my answer is: good question! My belief is that the government is still trying to police our sexual behavior, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:54 AM

Between 1900 and 1930, organized religion saw itself losing control of American attitudes and so began pressing for new laws to support it's point of view. Most or our moral legislation and "blue" laws stem from this period, including the requirement for marriage licenses. There is also the fact that, until 1950 or thereabouts, ALL countries wanted to increase their core population to enlarge the work force and the military pool. Much of the current legislative bias is a holdover from this, I think. Also, consider the fact that a large percentage of our immagrants since 1950 have come from cultures which favor large families. They vote, too. In general, pre-industrial culture favors large families and tries to enforce that bias. Modern medicine plays a part, too. The 19th century was the first time in history that metropolitan birth rates exceeded death rates. Most of human history promotes maximum reproduction. Governments have traditionally tried to keep families intact to minimize the need for social services. Hence, the traditional western family group. It's time for a change, but it won't be easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 10:56 AM

I apologize for the awkward, stilted tone of the above. This is not what I do best.

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM

My idea, for 30+ years, has been that anyone (in ANY combination) wishing to get married or set up ANY household with obvious interlocking obligations, should be required to write out the 'rules' by which they intend to abide, and the socio/financial obligations that apply.(And I mean gay/Lesbian households, as well as polygamy and polyandry..etc...etc.)

This contract could be chosen from a set already approved by lawyers (to avoid loopholes in $$$ aspects or child care...etc.)....or they could write their own and submit it for approval...NO moral judgements, just making sure that situations beyond the traditional nuclear family spell out responsibilities for the protection of all in case of.....well...in case of humans acting all-too-human.

Sounds too complicated and impossible under the laws and attitudes of today, you say? Sure...not easy...but maybe easier than dealing with communal marriages when there are 7 kids, 2 husbands, 4 wives and houses full of property with utility bills and pets to sort out when there are problems.

Not in my lifetime, I'm sure...but these situations already exist, and it is high time we deal with the reality....from just having that extra girlfriend move in, to total communal living, to religious setups like some Mormons would like to practice.

The penalty for NOT doing this is already in place....only the 'primary' couple has rights, and if there IS no legal primary, then fights, lawsuits and traumatized kids.

(sure,,,there are myriads of detailed discussions that this outline does not mention,,,,but..................)

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: harpgirl
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:22 PM

...I think the primary forces shaping the american marriage scene have been economic. Industrialization, capitalism, the rise of corporate pyres-have had more influence on marriage, divorce, and family lifestyles than what we may or may not have "learned" about marriage. It would require a sophisticated regression analysis to support the typical offhand remark about marriage/divorce rates such as "we are not learning from our mistakes". This sounds "Mormonish" to me and is decidedly suspect as a logical argument as to why the remarriage divorce rate is so high.

hg

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From:
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:17 PM

I don't care what people do unless children are involved. And making it easier for either fathers to disappear or for mothers to keep their children from their fathers (I am talking of non-abusive ones here) is not in the best interests of society, and for some children it is absolutely devestating. They live in a state of grief. And it seems to hit boys the worst but girls are also very affected. Not each and every child. Some do fine with minimal or even no contact. Some have been raised by wolves and do O.K. But some, and I have known very very many of them, feel the loss or vacancy of a father, not a "strong male image," not a "father figure" but a father, very very deeply. And you won't know in advance whether your child will be like this or not. It's a crap shoot. So I think you have to assume that you will produce a child or children who need the constant presence, and the financial support, and the sense of security in these troubled times, that a father will or should provide. And the argument that no father is better than a terribly abusive one is true, but it is also foolish. For God's sake, if that is the sort of man you would consider mating with, get yourself fixed. (a generic comment, not addressed to anyone in particular) mg

Subject: RE: BS: Alternatives to Marriage Resources
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:57 PM

Yeah, but I've known as many wounded children from so-called "intact" families as I have wounded children from single parent families, etc.

Raising children to become great adults isn't about how many parents you have, its about how you get treated by them, are raised by them, how available they are to you, how supportive of you as an individual they are (as opposed to being an extension of them, your siblings, their parents, etc). IMO, of course.