An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS

Subject: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Max
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:51 AM

Dear GUESTS,

The Mudcat is a place that like minded people communicate and share their knowledge and their lives. We come from different backgrounds, different countries, different ideals, different religions, morals and lifestyles. With these differences, it amazes me that we have so much in common. The format, technology and philosophy of the Mudcat design have been carefully crafted for almost 6 years to facilitate this very diverse community. I have steadfastly or stubbornly held to an ideal of openness since our beginning because I thought that was what was necessary to mimic the real world and to make it easy and comfortable for new folks to discover and learn about our community and ease their way into it.

For the first time since I started this whole thing, I am very thoughtfully considering an alternative.   With GUESTS posting as they are today, I have no interest in continuing as I have. You are hurting me. Not just my feelings or my pride in what we have accomplished here, but also in a real concrete way. As many of you know, the economy is in the tank, and Onstage can no longer finance the Mudcat. The members have contributed a great deal of money, in January specifically, that will keep us running for at least 6 months to come. We are up for 2 grants from Folk Song Societies come March and April. All of our sources of financing are highly deterred by the behavior and ability of GUESTS. Probably about ¾ or our income comes from people and organizations that care about us because we are a Music Resource with no equal. The other ¼ is because of the community. Zero is from GUESTS. So, in these times of necessity, I need to prioritize in gratitude for those who care about the Mudcat in real ways. Real ways are the contributions of money and the contributions of knowledge. Neither comes from GUESTS.

Please stop this behavior, I ask nicely, nay, I beg of you. There is no point to this. This forum is not just words on a page; these are people behind these posts. People who are here to share themselves, their knowledge, their time and even their homes. What you are doing is littering in the park. A free place we can all come to and do our thing, whether we want to meet people and discuss our interests or just sit on the benches and read. You are also personally attacking me. This is my creation, and you are ruining it. You are jeopardizing the only financing we have. If you do not hear my plea, and find some human compassion and stop this now, I will have no choice but to put a fence around my park to keep you out.   

Flamers and Trolls of the past always seemed to want something. They would flame BS, Prayer, Healing, etc. threads in protest that this should be a Music-Only Web site. Or they would pick on specific people they did not like. I cannot figure out what you GUESTS want or why you do this other than some egocentric joy from destruction. If I knew what you wanted I could deal with this issue in a surgical fashion and address only those issues without changing one of our core philosophies. But, I do not expect that you want anything. Nor do I suspect you will grant me my plea to please stop this. If that is the case, I have no choice but to implement measures to deal with you. That is, no anonymous postings. At a minimum, you will have to be a member, you will receive your password via a valid email address and your IP address will be recorded. Any behavior that I don't like (no jury, no trial) and your cut off. A technological challenge that I am looking forward to.

MEMBERS: We are discussing our options and our technology now, and will post an Open Letter to Members in a week or two to explain what we have decided. There will be no debate, I've heard all there is to hear about this issue. I will do as I see fit.

Sincerely,

Max D. Spiegel
Publisher

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:56 AM

Go Max -

Steve

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:56 AM

thans, Max.......it needed to be said...I hope the soul behind that message is heard.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Amos
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 11:59 AM

Big Guyt, we're behind you doing whatever you need to.

A.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:01 PM

Bravo.

sian

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Giac
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM

Unfortunate that it had to come to this. Whatever you decide will be best for Mudcat.

Mary

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM

You've expressed the problem clearly, Max. Whatever you feel is necessary, I'm with you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:16 PM

You have my thanks and my support, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:17 PM

Do what you have to do Max. I will support it.
Mary

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:18 PM

Best for Max certainly, and that's his entitlement. It's his show and he can take his toy home whenever he likes. Maybe best for Mudcat too, but I doubt it. Putting a fence around will kill off at least half the value, and expose more of the trivial (though harmless ) natter that goes on between people who know each other, more or less.

Having spent minimal time here in recent weeks, I'm surprised to see this issue on the agenda right now. To me, Joe Offer's is the acid test: what kind of shop window do people see when they just call in for some info? Last night, out of many dozens of threads, no more than a handful were wholly unrelated to music. Admittedly one of those with a music link was some guy asking the world whether he should have been offended by someone else's behaviour, but still there was a hell of a lot of music/song-based info to dip into. And of course there were the brilliant Drumcree campsite threads, which without guests would never have happened.

Maybe I was just lucky when I dropped in, but I certainly didn't see a forum that was ruined by anonymous bile. Nor even one unhealthily preoccupied with discussing itself. I've seen both characteristics more strongly evidenced in the past two or three years.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:20 PM

Max

Count on me Max, Philosophically, financially, and contributorially. The threads that deal with physical disability and musicians have been a valuable help with the population my job serves. This is the only place where such help is given so freely.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM

Max you`re the man! Save our little world of music!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM

A bit of ecology here. The Mudcat is what is called an "open commons" (like the internet and the ocean). Like all open commons, people who come and go have no stake in it, and therefore can exploit it, fish it out, or dump pollution in it, or write graffiti in it. The result is what is called "the tragedy of the commons" -- a fine public idea or space is wrecked by a few. The way the open spaces of the earth are being wrecked by greed and self-interest. The only way such an open commons can work is if there are enough resources set aside for janitors to wipe off the graffiti, police to throw out drunks, etc. These resources, here, are currently being supplied by Max's time, patience, and the assistance of volunteers. They have reached the end of the line.

There are two alternatives: one is privatization -- private property, so individuals defend their individual space, thus eliminating all public space entirely. The other is the creation of a "closed commons". Every workable commons that has lasted -- tribal fishing grounds, hunting territory, common meeting space -- has to be able to police itself, and the behaviour of its members -- this is usually done, not with formal rules, but with ethics, peer pressure, and manners. Mutual coercion mutually agreed upon. If not, it descends into the "tragedy of the commons" again.

This place has had (endlessly) to debate the merits of keeping it an open commons, or having to create a membership structured closed commons. It has hovered between these two approaches because of the ethical imperatives of the folk music community (exemplified by the Digital Tradition) to mutually support each other, and organically accept contributions from almost anyone. But this cannot work forever. Someone has to clean up after the concerts.

Up to this point, the keeping it as an open commons -- where people can come and go with no stake in the place, which is endemic on the Internet -- has been sustainable, on the backs of Max and the volunteers. If the continuation of the place requires the movement to a closed commons -- and it appears that it does, I support that change. We will lose some freedom, but better that than losing the space entirely.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Rollo
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:24 PM

Huh? Cookie Probs? Twas me, Rollo, posting last message!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:32 PM

Max,

I run a scholarly discussion for the iniversity library where I work, and anyone is able to read the open archives, because they are maintained on the university's public listserv server. But because of the nature of the list (for information dissemination by the library to users) outsiders don't post to the list. Any attempts to do so come to me, and I politely explain what the list is about. I answer questions, and I forward questions I can't answer to the librarian who might be able to help. My list is very small, only posted to a few times a semester. But I know of similarly moderated lists that, while they are a lot of work for the owners, keep strictly to the subject of the list. You should be able to reach some kind of point with the membership that enables outsiders to read discussions, and to email you or Joe Clones personally to ask questions or to join, without the present carnage on the lists.

In the next few months I will finally be able to unpack 40 year's worth of music collecting work I from my father's estate, and will look to Mudcat in many ways to identify, organize, and manage this material. I plan to have a piano worked on, possibly do some of it myself (but sound advice from Mudcatters has convinced me that I would do the piano a disservice to try to do it all myself).

In addition to being a member with a cookie, I would be willing to be a subscriber; perhaps this could be managed by having a print document (newsletter) that goes to subscribers as a token and for keeping track of subscriptions. I, like a lot of folks, can't afford a lot, but this is an important site, and to keep it here, like PBS, I'm willing to do my share. All of these little contributions add up, as you discovered in January. And on this site, like PBS, non-members can observe. You've been far more patient than I could ever manage when facing outsiders who would foul the pond strictly for their own amusement.

My two cents.

Maggie

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:38 PM

Full ahead on this, Max. Just one question: I use DMcG here and 'Guest, DMcG at work' when I'm at work (smart, huh?). Do you think we will be able to do something similar in future if we have to move to a members-only forum?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:40 PM

DMcG: All he needs to do is set up a logon screen so if you're not at your computer the cookie won't stay put. A Proxy server is how a lot of places do it.

SRS

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Justa Picker
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:41 PM

Bravo!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

What great news! When I first joined Mudcat, I started reading some of the Guest threads that had turned ugly. At first, I added my appreciation for Mudcat and new-found friends. But, after a few weeks, I just got sick of all the transparent attempts to offend others and haven't bothered to post responses, or even read the threads any more. But, I know that a little drop of poison can spoil the whole brew, and I've been concerned that people would get turned off by all of the trollers. That would be a great victory for those who desire to bring the Cat down. I'd love to see Mudcat do what it does best... share information, music, encouragement, support and a lot of laughs. I'd encourage you too, that if people become members so that they can continue to upset everything, get rid of 'em. That would sure please me, a new member.
Jerry

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Max
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

Just to be clear, this effort is not to eliminate or even reduce, BS, our filters will handle that. This is to eliminate anonymous personal attacks from GUESTS.

Most forums that I visit require some sort of registration before you post, so I don't think this is an unreasonable concept. Nor do I think that I'm closing the system, simply taking names at the door. People will be held accountable for their actions now, whereas currently they are not.

Sure, there are some negatives to the idea, but because of the recent activity and, frankly, absurd behavior of GUESTS, the positives are beginning to outweigh the negatives.

Yes, there will be a login screen so you can post from work with a valid membership.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 12:58 PM

Extremely well stroked Max. Like others, I hope the heart that is behind your message shows through for all, but cynical ol' Spaw kinda' doubts it. With no member messages on this thread, you would still know that you have the support of this community to make any changes that are needed. You are well aware of the community you have built here and how much we do care for it.......and for you.

Do what you feel needs be done.......and here is another in the series of "Bravos" from me too. Like you, I am sorry it has come to this, but some of this comes with growth......growth that has come because of what you designed. Oddly enough, I won't even suggest a kick in the balls for you......I think you have proven yourself to be a qualified ball kicker.

Thanks.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Musicman
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:02 PM

Max... do what needs being done... Paul (aka musicman)

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:05 PM

I would LOVE to see a simple login setup, so that any member could access Mudcat from any computer

...but I would also like, if possible, access for those have a sincere need to be briefly anonymous..(to share info on delicate medical conditions, for example).

It is sad that 3 to 7 people have brought us to this awkward situation, requiring extra work for Max & Jeff...but the recent glee exhibited by trolls who brag about their ability to cause uproar have brought us to this.

ONWARD!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:06 PM

Requiring registration is the logical first solution.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:08 PM

Bravo, Max. I'm still fairly new, but the incessant "GUEST" battle has nearly caused me to go packing more than once out of sheer annoyance. I am sure we will lose a few of the non-troublesome GUESTs who simply don't want a cookie... but I think you are right in thinking it's worth it.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:09 PM

Count me in too, Max - why should anyone's "right" to be anonymously hurtful and destructive be protected? That sort of thing is about as good for Mudcat as a virus.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:25 PM

Thanks, Max. It sounds exactly like what we need.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: MMario
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:36 PM

I can't add much more than a "ditto" to the comments.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM

Well, I'm not entirely sure the biggest pile of recent anonymous trolling hasn't been somebody trying to eliminate non-member posting... "Hey, look at what someone could do if they're as much of an asshole as I am."

Max, I hope you can find a way to do this without cookies. Helluva thing to boot out folks who can't or won't accept cookies. No more postings by GUEST, visiting musicians, Drumcree threads, no more Cletus. Of course, the good points include no more sniper attacks or trolls by people who only do it because they don't think their own personal life will be affected by what they do...and no more Cletus. (Just kidding, Spaw.) It's one tough decision, and I'm glad it's you that's making it.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM

I have to agree with Fionn, here: "Putting a fence around will kill off at least half the value, and expose more of the trivial natter that goes on between people who know each other"

As far as I understand the measures suggested, any determined GUEST could easily circumvent them.

Setting up a 'valid' but false email address is very simple, and using a proxy to hide your IP address is hardly rocket science.

A lot of guests post here. 95% are genuine, decent people. Most of the 5% who want to be nasty will find a way to get through anyhow.

To say, as Max does; that GUESTS never provide "contributions of knowledge" is totally inaccurate.

However, I think the biggest potential loss is those members who cannot have cookies at work or wherever. It would be a great shame to lose their often useful contributions.

It's a shame it's come to this

However, it's Max's party, and he's heard all he wants, so I'll shut up

Paul

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Les Jones
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:56 PM

Sorry I didn't join earlier. It would be bad to exclude people but can guests not be re-routed to the joining page in some automatic way or presented with a roll over explaining why joining supports the site?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:56 PM

A pity, but that's how it goes. I concur with Bill D's request that there should if possible be some mechanism for people to post not under their normal name or pseudonym, because circumstances can arise where that would be helpful.

You'll be hearing from the Friends of Mudcat which was set up at Stony Stratford as a mechanism to make it easier for people in the British Isles to provide more reliable financial support. We didn't get to discuss this latest development from Max, since it hadn't happened. But I'm sure we'd have agreed it was a good idea, even if regrettable.

Of course the pillocks responsible will no doubt be preening themselves on a victory of sorts. That's a pity too.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:57 PM

I want to add one request: Please keep it very easy for strangers to request song lyrics or chords.

I have spent lots of time helping such people, and I would be happy to continue. It is one of the main things that keeps me interested in Mudcat. Answering such requests is my main way of promoting folk music.

Requests for lyrics are nearly always sincere. (But this could change….)

Many an interesting music thread has been started by a stranger who asked for help.

It would be a shame if the number of requests dropped off because newcomers were intimidated by the sign-on procedure. The result would probably be even fewer music-oriented threads.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From:
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 01:58 PM

Hi Max --

So sorry -- did not mean to hurt you by posting as a guest. I know how it feels to do something that is a great contribution to the music community or to any community and to feel unappreciated and even taken advantage of.

I'm a little confused about how to do this, was just quickly trying to find some lyrics. I did this once before -- perhaps I am already a member. I don't know. I will try to figure out how to submit properly next time.

I do appreciate all you do SO much!

Peace, Win Grace [e-mail]

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:01 PM

Go, Max. Seems eminently reasonable to me.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:02 PM

Paul, if you expect to receive your password by e-mail, you're going to need to receive e-mail at that account. If a person behaves badly, they get their membership yanked. They might be able to re-register (maybe not with the previous e-mail address), but they'd probably do something to get that membership yanked and give up after a while if they couldn't consistently control themselves.

So yeah, it would probably not completely stop the flames, but it would cut them down to a level that wouldn't seriously interfere with the "mood" of Mudcat. At least I don't think so.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM

Well said, Max. You know you have my support and deep gratitude.

luvyakat

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:09 PM

Win Grace: I don't think Max's remarks were intended for you. (See my message right before yours.)

We have been having a lot of trouble lately with a very small, persistently vocal minority of guests who just want to complain, provoke arguments, and insult people.

I know that's probably hard to understand for someone who wouldn't think of doing such a thing themselves.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:15 PM

Jeri,

I hesitate in answering this, in case it gives people ideas...

It is however, very easy to set up 10, 20, however many you need, new and valid email addresses every day.

Getting that number of different proxy IP addresses isn't difficult either.

My worry is that the really nasty flamers will find a way through anyway, but the nice innocent guests will suffer, and lots of new people won't bother with the site any more

People who like to 'hack' enjoy it more if it's a challenge...

Paul

Email: [e-mail] IP Address: 62.252.192.5

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Les B
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM

Max - glad to hear you're going to unlimber the old fly swatter! My only concern is that at work my log-on has to be prefaced by "guest", and I like to check in once or twice a day from there. Keep up the good fight.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:33 PM

I won't comment on whether I think this is a good development-- that's Max's lookout and I appreciate that he indicated clearly that it is not open to debate. VERY smart approach. He's heard all the input up to now, and that's what a leader does-- integrate inputs from all sources including his/her own personal observation, and then DECIDE and set the course.

So then the question is, how might I help? However asked-- and that's always a given. In addition, if it would be useful, count me in as a volunteer willing to have my e-mail appear as a link for people who must be cookieless... or to share rotating responsibility for a general "music help by e-mail" option.

I would so it by posting whatever is requested and mail back the URL to see the results.... I would not serve the requests personally by e-mailed reply. Maybe someone (or several someone's) whose membername is ADMIN would do that to toss the requests/questions in for discussion. The requestors can surely view the results without an endless stream of e-mails about it, once it's posted. *G* I shudder to think of the waste of effort and knowledge if answers were to disappear into cyberspace and not get posted to the threads. Because even when the only "answer" is a link to an existing thread or DT entry, it's the thread being seen in the threadlist that invites continuing discussion as only Mudcat can have it. That is so much a part of the gift we give one another, and others to follow, here at Mudcat.

Like all things in process, like life itself, Max et al will think through exactly how to do this as flexibly as possible; we will all use it and see how it works; and it will continue to evolve.

I'm glad it's Max having to address this. Cuz... he's MAX. "Al" does good too. *G*

~Susan

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: fat B****rd
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:34 PM

Excellent Max, I would be very upset if I could not have my daily/nightly look at the 'Cat. I hope you don't have to resort to any complicated measures or whatever but lately the amount of negative postings has been (to me and obviously many others) getting out of hand. I'm not referring to disagreements but the often cruel and totally unnecessary comments from various people. Good luck and please don't go All the best from the fB

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:45 PM

I agree that its needed (and probably past time), but I also agree that there HAS to be some easy way for "strangers" to ask questions. Except for the mythological "inner core", I'd guess that most of us originally came to Mudcat that way, and the rapid and helpful response of a member (or of many members) is what made us stay. Also, if technologically possible, could the DigiTrad stay outside of the closed section? I have a number of friends who go there regularly for songs, but have no particular interest in participating in any of the discussions.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:47 PM

I too am glad to see that Max has finally taken the bull by the horns....As fo 'no Cletus', I suspect that 'Spaw could always forward his letters to us....

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:51 PM

My support too. I became a member as soon as I realized that there was a problem with the Guest postings. Some boards have a section where those without cookies can post. As WYSIWYG notes, there are other solutions. I don't understand the personality problem that the flamers and trolls have. I don't see why this board has to endlessly waste space on them. I much prefer talking (or arguing) about music and telling stories (Manatees, f'instance).

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Max
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:52 PM

Paul speaks from experience.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:54 PM

artbrooks

the "innercore" isn't totally mythological

A member only forum will simply increase the occurence of friends chatting amongst themselves.

Mudcat will die as a useful folk music group

New and interesting people won't bother anymore

Remember BruceO?

He always posted as a guest

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:57 PM

Indeed I do Max,

that's why I might be worth listening to...

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Cobble
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 02:57 PM

With you all the way Max.

Cobble and Mr's C.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Feb 02 - 03:10 PM

Bruce O argued that e-mail addresses should be on every post, which is a little MORE revealing that forum membership. I don't quite understand why he argued for identification data but remained a guest himself. Maybe he just wanted identification enforced rather than volunteered. I doubt he would object to this.