An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:09 PM

Gee, I hate it when people refresh these old, contentious threads. There was one thread going on the subject, and that's enough. Our defiant Guest taunts that while Max threatened controls in times past, he didn't bring them into effect. Our Guest thinks the same thing will happen with what I've threatened, and I hope that's correct. We do our best to control this Forum as little as we can, hoping that people will be civil and police themselves. Generally, it works.
We get no pleasure out of controlling the discussion here. We don't want to do it. I'm still hoping things will settle down.
If you want to discuss this matter any further, please do it in the current thread on the topic, Cut-and-Paste Prohibitions.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:34 AM

Guest Matriot,

What you are doing is actually destructive in nature.

While it is not very effective, the intention behind your actions is a serious question.


It is time for you to face up to the fact that you are in the throes of a harmful intention, and are dramatizing it. Until you do face that, you will be unable to escape the issue, and dramatizing it further, with all the rationalization you are so good at, will simply make your entrapment more solid. You really need to get wise to yourself, pal. Start now.

A

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:22 AM

Matriot WAMSO, that is a load of aul shite. Once again you try and focus it off to the wrong issue. No one cares about anonymity, per se. It is when you use you supposed anonymity to post flame posts, oft times acting like you are two or three different people, and you do this just to stir trouble. As to the supposed "hierarchy", that is a load as well. What you call the hierarchy are folks who have a history of helping financially, and with the duties, around here. The place would not exist without them.

Just the very act of creating false predicates in these threads shows what your intent is. The very act of taking the kernel of a legitimate criticism, and turning it into something destructive indicates what you are about. Do us all a favor? Try taking up a musical instrument..............and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

Mick

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:59 AM

I also noted that this thread was refreshed by toadfrog, who in the "Cut and Paste Prohibitions" thread, seems disturbed by the double standards for regulating bad behavior in the forum--one standard for guests, one for standard for members.

I don't know what your motives were for refreshing this thread toadfrog. I don't know that most people will bother reading this long a thread. It is a good illustration of a serious problem in Mudcat which still exists. Max made the same threat Joe Offer is now making on his behalf, in the "Cut and Paste Prohibitions" thread. Neither have made good on their threats to get rid of the guests.

So what does their (Max & Joe Offer's) anti-guest vitriol accomplish? I think the answer is, it maintains the forum hierarchy. Why they feel they need a forum hierarchy that allows members' shit to roll down hill onto guests, I'll never know. But maybe they like the power buzz they get by being the group's alpha males. Over and over again, you read posts that say "as soon as I saw how guests were treated here, I joined right away". That should tell the Big Dogs something--like the member/guest log-in system has created a sub-class of posters, and that sort of dynamic isn't a healthy, positive one.

Lepus Rex is right. Some members here really do have a dysfunction about anonymity. But the member/guest problem here goes much deeper than that. Max & Joe's behavior is textbook male dominance. It is about power, dominance, subordination, and hierarchy. And there is a very dark side to that. Very, very dark.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 08:41 AM

Well, I've just read this entire thread. I found only one post that is worth repeating for it's sense, wisdom, and knowledge of this forum. Here is is:

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: sophocleese
Date: 11 Feb 02 - 08:52 AM

"Guest versus non-guest" is a silly way to regard the problems here at Mudcat. Rudeness has always been a problem from members and guests alike. If you want a place without an obtrusive moderator people have to moderate their own behaviour. If you want to start moderating moderate actions not signatures.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 03:22 AM

MAX!
From the bottom of my heart, thank you for all that you've done. I've not had the time I used to have to visit the Mudfolk, but I still check in from time to time. I'm sorry you're havin' such a hard time with rude people that can't seem to comprehend the written word.
But some people just aren't happy unless they're stirrin' up shit. I know in the past I've managed to piss some people off, but at least I signed my name to'er. and if I found I was wrong, or if I got to feelin' guilty 'bout somethin' I said, I apologized promptly an' I signed my name to that too!... So do what ya gotta do man, I'd appreciate it if you'd include me on your list "to keep" though,...
I think I'd really miss this place.
PEACE!(through understanding)
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Neighmond
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:43 AM

As guests in another's house (it even says in the heading that you are "Guest") it is only good manners that you abide by the rules of the house. If you cannot abide by the rules of the house the time will pass when you cease at being a guest and begin to be a pest. Remember this simple childhood doggerel:

When you roam far from your home be a guest and not a pest.

I am sure they taught deportment in school, if only certian of our number would have stayed awake and availed themselves of it, how wonderful it would have been.

Chaz

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Richie
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 09:48 PM

The Mudcat is simple a great research tool and as a professional musician- a great place to share and receive ideas with others.

I agree that some the GUEST posts have been out of line at times but it doesn't bother me. Having outside GUEST posts are a good way to get new people involved. Some GUESTS have added a lot to threads.

I wonder what Max thinks now...almost one year later.

Max?

-Richie

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 08:23 PM

to those who still want to be anonymous, in spite of everything:

the point is, it is rude to BE 'totally' anonymous, except temporarily or by accident. Therefore complaints about rude responses to continuous anonymous posts are silly and miss the point.

If you are playing loud, disruptive music at the beach you might expect to get less than genteel remarks...and if you then walk up and down the beach bitching about how YOU were mistreated by those remarks, you simply don't comprehend common courtesy. (Remarks about 'public beach' and 'just ignore it, if you don't like it', just further show that you consider your self interests above the interests of the majority.)

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 08:06 PM

Lepus,

I would like o offer a thought -- the point has never been hangups about anonymity. There are only two problems associated with the AG syndrome. One is that as a rule, the AG is usually the signature of choice for people who would rather spew than communicate. They may do this for personal reasons or personality disorder reasons, i don't care. It means that you don't know to whom you owe the honor of being flamed or slung poo at. This demoralizes those who are astill trying to maintain a modicum or rationality around here.

Second of all, because there are no distinguishing features from one AG to the next, it is confusing to sort out who is saying what, and this undermines the communication power of the firum, which is antisocial and is not done unknowingly. It is the kind of thing the immature often do, just before puberty, but why should it be added to the ordinary work of commubnicating here at the Cat?

Aside from these two issues which are communication issues, I have no complaints about anonymity. There are dozens of handles in use here for which I know NOTHING about the oowner -- you're aohng them. You're perfectly anaonymous as far as I am concerned, because all I know of you is the fictitious handle. But at least I can talk to you and feel like I am speaking to one person on a consistent basis.

A

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Cluin
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:53 PM

Because it's an old thread from last year.

But still current in its concerns.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:53 PM

Wow, this thread was a year ago? I thought it was longer ago than that... Well, since this has been refreshed, I officially withdraw my meaningless support of Max's never-implimented reforms. I started changing my mind about the whole "anonymous GUEST" issue soon after this thread appeared, and realised that the larger problem was members with weird hang-ups about anonymity (myself at the time included). I think, uh, a few people might disagree with me on that. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Strupag
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:49 PM

I don't know how I misssed this thread but 240 postings or so later could I just say that I support Max 110%.
Slainte agus sith!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:45 PM

It's important. I love seeng the variety of different opinions, but those who post purely to belittle, deride, and otherwise mock, they should be banned. IMHO. I don't mind that people disagree with me. Some of my closest friends disagree with me about quite a bit. But abuse, rumor-mongering, character defamation, etc. are really uncalled for.

HC

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Sam L
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:34 PM

Thanks for refreshing this. I was unaware of the concerns here.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Hippie Chick
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 06:17 PM

Sounds like the best choice to me Max.   This is too good of a music information site to have to worry about flaming and whining shutting it down.

Hippie Chick

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: toadfrog
Date: 21 Feb 03 - 03:35 PM

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 May 02 - 08:31 PM

It's not all that hard to become a member, no harm in it & not at all painful either. On the other hand Max is jumping through a ring of fire just to keep things on an even keel, FOR US & taking quite a bit of abuse to boot. Give him a brake & post as a member. It's a hard enough task just to keep this site up & running never mind trying to be on top of all the personalities, improvements, begging for civility, updating the site constantly & etc, etc, etc, etc....... He's doing all the hard work & we reap. Becoming a member like he's mentioned is the least we can do, even if it's only out of respect. Barry

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 May 02 - 02:05 PM

Bonnie, we members have tried something like that before with specific threads for just ranting, but it inevitably spills over. The other thing is it would take several joeclones being constantly vigilant to spot all of those types of postings and get them moved. I don't think it would be feasible for that and several other reasons. Max has some good things planned, from what I know, with the upgraded version which will help with some of this.

kat

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: 53
Date: 29 May 02 - 01:33 PM

Still well said Max. I enjoy the cat and for those who don't well you know where to get off. Bob

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 May 02 - 01:10 PM

And what are we getting now?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 02 - 06:52 AM

Yeah, I know: Who decides when something is a flame and when it's simply healthy dissent?

Exactly.

Your suggestion would simple cause huge resentment and thousands of flames.

Bad Idea. A Miss

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 29 May 02 - 06:23 AM

Though this issue has become polarised into Guests vs. Members, the real trouble is flaming/trolling vs. censorship. I have seen plenty of guest posts which are interesting, amusing and enriching, and I have seen nasty and pointless posts by members. There do seem to be more guest-flames than member-flames (though I haven't tallied them) but I don't believe for a minute that it's because members are of superior character. It's just that having an exclusive identity – even a pseudonym – which people can reply to and trace does tend to act as a behaviour brake. And, let me tell you, writing under your own full name concentrates the mind wonderfully!

Since one of the basic conflicts is the question of freedom of speech, what about setting up a perma-thread and then transferring all the insults, rebuttals, name-calling and fights from every thread into it, regardless of the sender's status? People can then slug it out as much as they want but not dilute the original thread with off-topic distractions; and it would be irrelevant who is a member and who is a guest. The thread-name (or at least its key words) would have to be included as part of the header of each new message, but that doesn't seem to be an insurmountable problem. I know it's a bit inconvenient for the flamers, but it would still give them a forum while keeping the initial subject on course. Where a flame was first posted in a particular thread, the space could be retained but the text transferred to the perma-thread, with a standard notice redirecting the viewer to it. It may not be immediately apparent that a flame-war is going to ignite, but once it has, all contributing parties can be moved en masse, with a notification of where to look if you want to read it.

Yeah, I know: Who decides when something is a flame and when it's simply healthy dissent? Somebody has to, and own my feeling is that he who pays the piper… But at least everyone would be able to see how the judgements have been made, and they all have the chance to speak freely. Also, these consequences are a result of something which one has chosen to do of his/her own will (i.e. post a particular type of message), not something that he/she IS (i.e. A Member or A Guest) so an element of control lies with the sender. This should help ease the division because the perma-thread would not be populated exclusively by one "side" or the other.

I'm sure someone is bound to comment that it's too much like being made to sit in the corner facing the wall. But what are the alternatives? Ongoing pollution with negative energy? Censorship? A widening shell-scarred no-man's-land between members and guests?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 29 May 02 - 03:15 AM

I signed in just as "Guest" to make a point:

I am not any of the "Guests" who posted above, but if I don't put any identification on my post, folks will probably connect my posted thoughts with those of any and all other "Guests" in this thread.

I like the idea of guests being able to post--ir members posting as "guests" if they have a legitimate reason for not wanting a (non-inflammatory) post associated with their name. But perhaps they should be required to post SOME SORT OF NAME --be it Hieronymous Bosch or Wanda Jam, or whatever--so that multiple guests posting to the thread will not automatically be presumed to be one and the same.

Is it feasible to require "Guests" to put some kind of name in the blank, even if not their real name or regular Mudcat name (if they are members)?

Calico

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST,Sonja
Date: 29 May 02 - 02:02 AM

Max, I totally understand your frustration and irritation and the practical issues (e.g., potential funders being dissuaded by the trolling and flaming posts). So do whatcha gotta do.

FWIW, I have posted and answered requests for song lyrics and other music-related info, contributed to Song Challenge!s (even won a few B.L.O.B.s and Cow Chips from Áine), and posted parodies and other songs that I have written and occasionally contributed to a silly non-music forum discussion (e.g., "Funny Names of Towns). I don't believe I've ever been guilty of what you would call trolling or flaming. (If I have ever crossed the line, I'm confident it was only a teensy bit. I never post obscenities or insults.)

And, oh, yes, I have contributed financially to Mudcat. (See related PM as to how I did this.)

I guess I could become a member--I do have an email address. However, becoming a member could be misleading (again, for reasons explained in a PM).

So, if you go to a "members only" posting policy, Sonja (and her song contributions) will probably disappear from Mudcat.

Meanwhile, some Mudcat members will continue to post rather mean-spirited, presumptuous ad hominems that tend to derail legitimate music-related threads.

I don't envy your dilemma, Max. One way or another, though, I'll support whatever decision you make.

Sonja

BTW, FWIW, I'm at my laptop, away from my home right now. I can walk across the room and log in on the desktop computer without logging out or resetting my cookie, because there are cookies on both computers. So, I could post twice in a row with different IPs.

AND As several of y'all have reiterated,

WHY IS IT SO HARD JUST TO GIVE THE TROLLERS AND FLAMERS A GOOT LETTIN' ALONE?

GAWD, I don't even open up 70-95% of the BS threads, and if I do open one (jusst to find out what it's about) and it doesn't interest me, I don't post to it. Othewise, I'd never get any work done!

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: John J
Date: 27 May 02 - 12:39 PM

".....And Kat, yes I do think that Max owes us that much" posted by 'GUEST'.

Don't be bloody ridiculous, if you had half a brain you would realise WE owe Max.

John

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: DonD
Date: 27 May 02 - 12:28 PM

Missing from the generous hostess analogy is the greeting at the door: "Hello, come in to our open-house: who are you?"

To which the response is, "Never you mind who I am! Your house is ugly, your idea of interior decorating sucks, the temperature in here is too hot or cold and you'll never be able to get it right, I don't like the other people here (those who aren't ignorant are vulgar) and I don't like you especially, since I suspect that you are only having this party for secret venial reasons -- NOW where the *@#* is my dinner?! And by the way, I know where you live and you can expect me to drop in any time I damn well feel like it to raid your fridge and then complain about the contents. You can live with it, or move out of town, or -- put a lock on the door."

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Guessed
Date: 27 May 02 - 11:50 AM

Kerb the guests I say
except me of course - honest broker I be.
I have to say it will not deter tose few determined trolls but the average folkie I find (and I was no exception - even as a PC literate) posts first and joins second.
We will not get the second post if the first is too difficult.
trolls will know how to delete their cookies but then naive users are unlikely to so they can be monitored. Tough one Max, big brother and all that. With you whatever you decide.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:37 AM

Perhaps she *did* ask. It's still her kitchen, and it's still her choice, and it's still her timeline to set. If you want a meal you can critique and participate in, open a restaurant or invite others to your house.

If I went to the home of a veritable stranger for a *free* meal, even if she did ask my opinion, I would not expect her to use it, I would not expect her to have a timeline, and I would *never* *ever* think of criticising her work.

If I want it my way, I'll go to Burger King.

And now, I'll follow Rich M's sage advice.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: RichM
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:31 AM

alright, I'm outta this thread.
It's too long, it doesn't reflect well on guests, members or the Wizard....sometimes pissing in the pot is unproductive when the pot's already full.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 10:01 AM

If her seasonings aren't right, who are you to critique them?

Because she specifiaclly asked me (the membership) to critique them, then said she'd take my ideas onboard, then seemingly buggered off.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:55 AM

Guest replied: "Continuing with your metaphor, the hostess has asked which china to use, how best to season the dish etc. Many have gone out of their way to look up recipes, find china catalogues etc. The hostess has then said that the meal will be ready very soon. Everyone is hungry and getting ready to enjoy the meal. The meal doesn't turn up, so the people wait a bit longer, then longer still. Everyone is getting very hungry. Eventually, someone tries to find the hostess, nowhere to be seen..."

The Hostess is feeding you for free...If her seasonings aren't right, who are you to critique them? If she says she'll be ready in an hour and it takes 4, who are you to critique her? If she serves it on paper plates, who are you to tell her where to get china?

If you don't like the way she runs her kitchen (note, kitchen...NOT restaurant), go home to your own and do better.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:41 AM

I'm not starting a new thread as it would inevitably mean McGrath bumbling in and telling us (with his vast experience, of course) how Mudcat is the zenith of all web discussion rooms etc.

No thanks

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:35 AM

Hey other guest, thanks for the info. But that said, why not just start a new thread then? wouldn't be unprecendented, after all. We've seen many "what is happening to the Mudcat upgrade" threads here, which inevitably turn into the "Max doesn't owe you guest losers a thing" threads.

If people REALLY wanted to discuss the upgrade, what is stopping people from just starting a new thread with a blue clickie to this one if they so desire?

Or do you suppose that Max means that the questions about "where is that upgrade you promised us months/years ago" will be deleted promptly?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:21 AM

Guest,

The reason why this thread is so long is that Max said (way up earlier)

Any Part II to this thread will be deleted as promptly as we can manage

Hence the current length...

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: RichM
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:19 AM

I get impatient with guests too, sometimes.
But telling someone to get a fucking clue, is over the top. Is ANYONE in the inner circle in touch with the wizard these days?

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:09 AM

Right you are kendall--telling people to bugger off is a real meaningful contribution.

Isn't this a bit ludicrous people? This thread is 3 months old, and over 250 posts. It was refreshed by a trolling guest. Wouldn't people's time be better spent either ignoring this thread altogether, or at least creating a "continued" thread that is manageable for most people to read?

Damned if I'll read 250 posts vitriol being spit between members and guests. But then, some of you can't seem to get enough vitriol in your internet diet.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: kendall
Date: 27 May 02 - 09:03 AM

While we are on the subject, guest, what have YOU done to make this a better site? Many of us know what Max has been up against these past couple of years, and, we know that pleasing the nit pickers is not a priority for him. You have a right to express your opinion here, but, so does one who suggests that you "bugger off". It's that free speech thing.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:52 AM

Agreed guest.

Jon

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:49 AM

Jon,

To my mind it's not the failure to do it that irks.

It's the complete lack of communication.

A message from Max saying, 'sorry, I'm busy, the upgrade is on hold' would be fine by me, and I suspect everyone else.

And Kat, yes I do think that Max owes us that much

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:42 AM

OMG, here I go again...

Unfortunately again I find myself biting at member comments once more.

I think if most of us were honest, if we made a public statement indicating we would do something (regardless of whether we were obliged to do it), we would expect to be taken to task if we failed to keep our word.

Jon

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: RichM
Date: 27 May 02 - 08:18 AM

I get impatient with guests too, sometimes.
But telling someone to get a fucking clue, is over the top. Is ANYONE in the inner circle in touch with the wizard these days?

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:54 AM

Celtic Soul,

Your analogy doesn't ring true.

Continuing with your metaphor, the hostess has asked which china to use, how best to season the dish etc.

Many have gone out of their way to look up recipes, find china catalogues etc.

The hostess has then said that the meal will be ready very soon.

Everyone is hungry and getting ready to enjoy the meal. The meal doesn't turn up, so the people wait a bit longer, then longer still. Everyone is getting very hungry. Eventually, someone tries to find the hostess, nowhere to be seen...

Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: John J
Date: 27 May 02 - 07:37 AM

Go for it Max, you have my full approval to do as you think fit.

Your record shows you are a most considerate person who would not criticise, condemn or complain about others and their behaviour without substantial justification.

John

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 May 02 - 04:33 AM

Missed this thread when it started, and just read it (the whole shebang!)
Max: I'm with you all the way!
As someone pointed out halfway through this thread, the posts from some of the "Guests" in this thread make it quite clear your actions are justified.

Que Sera Sera!

Nigel

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 27 May 02 - 01:45 AM

There was this woman, no 4 star chef, but decent and desirous of giving it her best. She was willing to feed just about anyone that asked, and it was common knowledge that her home was open to all. Many people would come and bring a loaf of bread, or a bottle of wine to share. Some of the people she liked, some she had no real affinity for, some even urked her some, but she wanted everyone to feel at home, so she turned no one away. A stranger, complaining of being hungry, happened by. She set about the task of doing her best, though it took her some time. She set the meal before him, feeling as though she had done a good deed, and happy to have been able to provide the stranger with nourishment. The man then proceeded to critique her hard work rather harshly. He, a total stranger to her. He said that he could get better swill from a garbage bin, and asked when she was going to serve a better meal than this? He harshly told her she should try harder, and that it should be forthcoming immediately. It wasn't as if she could possibly have anything better to do, and it was obviously not as if she didn't have the money to do so. He complained that she took too long to bring it. He complained that the seasonings were wrong. He complained that she used cheap ingredients. He complained that she was not forthcoming with ideas for how she was going to do better next time. He complained that her home was not neat. He complained that she had not offered him her best china. He complained that she had not offered him a bed. He complained that she was nicer to the people who had come over more often. And he was angry when she got upset and asked him to please be a little more appreciative, and a little more polite in her home. He was even surprised and more angry when she finally lost her temper and asked him to leave.

Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 May 02 - 11:44 PM

Dear Guest, you don't deserve an answer nor any respect. Good day & goodbye. Barry

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 May 02 - 10:45 PM

What you've missed is Max doesn't owe you or any of the rest of us a damn thing, including an explanation. Get a fucking clue and find something else to do with your time.

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 02 - 06:32 PM

Please Barry!

If supine adoration suits you, fine. But may I ask a question?

So what has Max done recently to make this a 'better neighborhood?'

Promising things for a year, and not delivering?

Ignoring most people who email suggestions?

Not bothering telling the membership where things are going?

Or have I missed something?

Subject: RE: An Open Letter from Max to GUESTS
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 May 02 - 06:22 PM

Hi Max,
After being on Mudcat close to 5 1/2 yrs & having met you along with accomplices Dick & Susan, Joe Elf & probably near a hundred other mudcatters (all thanks to you) it is YOU who has made this place into a folk community with absolutely no comparison. I couldn't have had a better shot in the arm & a boost in spirit while on my death bed than from those here. I know & see you as the builder/driver of the vechical that allowed this to be. I see no better time than now to take it out of the tail spin that ABUSING guests have seem to be wishing for. The changes that you've made here over the years have always been for the better of all & for the continual survival & enjoyment of the mudcat. NONE has put the TIME, MONEY, BLOOD, SWEAT, EFFORT & PASSION into this site. There are always those that'll bite the hand that feeds them or shit where they eat. We all benefit & are the better for your endevors. Not only is the ball yours to do as you see fit but it's also your court housed in your dwelling. We have for the most part been extremely aware of each other here & indeed have given those that are respectful of this neighborhood the respect due them in return. If you want to run off the bulling guests so be it, it's been a long time coming. Thanks for continuing to make this a better neighboorhood. Barry