English Folk: Harmony Singing

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 02:01 PM

Vic Gammon's article in the notes to the Copper Family CD (Come Write Me Down: Early Recordings of the Copper Family of Rottingdean. Topic TSCD534) speculates that "the Coppers' harmony singing is an aural version of two musical phenomena; glee singing and hymn singing..." He also suggests that the rarity of recorded examples of English harmony singing may be a reflection of the thinness of collecting activities.
There is a good analysis of the harmonic structure of the Copper family song Dame Durden.

A.L.Lloyd in Folk Song in England, in considering the relationship between "art music" and folk song, suggests that groups of semi-professional musicians and singers, such as the town waits of the 16th century, may have been responsible for disseminating the practice of singing in parts. The tune from c.1600 known as Gregory Walker or the Quadrant Pavan used a harmonic structure that formed the basis of a number of folk songs.

Bruce Olson's Ballad Index could be worth consulting Ballad Index, but Grove's Encyclopedia could also be helpful - there is quite a lot about folk music in it.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:34 PM

noreen youre dead right and i stand corrected. of course i am interested too which is why im typing out quotes and talking. and the background facts are often very useful when people start pontificating on what you should and shouldnt do...a fairly common habit among folkies! on a different but related topic: i do think peter paul and mary's harmonies on blowing in the wind were totally dreadful. i wish someone had prevented them from trying. greg

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:33 PM

noreen youre dead right and i stand corrected. of course i am interested too which is why im typing out quotes and talking. and the background facts are often very useful when people start pontificating on what you should and shouldnt do...a fairly common habit among folkies! on a different but related topic: i do think peter paul and mary's harmonies on blowing in the wind were totally dreadful. i wish someone had prevented them from trying. greg

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: NoMattch
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:16 PM

I've heard songs sung in 18th century British style written for a melody lead and a drone-like counterpart. I've never heard these songs done with musical accompaniment.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 01:11 PM

Thanks GUEST, very interesting, and I'd like to see the refs when you come across them.

Greg, I don't think it's necessarily a case of specially need(ing) a bit of history to back you up, some (including me) find it interesting to know where these 'traditions' started. No-one here said that it SHOULD be one way of the other- just seeking information.

pattyClink - where did the 'Welsh harmony tradition' that you mention come from?

Noreen

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 12:16 PM

In my theory Harmony was invented when 4 people aimed for the melody note and three of them missed. Several of the groups mentioned do songs like "Martin Said to his Man" this has that "English Folk" sound and was published by Thomas Ravenscroft in 1597 or so. So what's new. JohnB

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 12:10 PM

Angela's work on caoineadh is mostly in found in feminist works from outside Ireland. One is the beautiful book called "Dwelling in Possibility", but I haven't got the cite handy--same with the Lillis O Laoire articles. I'll get back to you when I've got a bit more time to dig them up for you Matthew.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM

giraldus cambrensis writing c 1200AD (translated from latin)' the britons do not sing their their tunes in unison,like the inhabitants of other counries,but in different parts. so that when a company of singers meets to sing, as is usual in this country, as many different parts are heard as there are singers....in the northern parts of the country,beyond the humber and on the borders of yorkshire, the inhabitants make use of a similar kind of symphonious harmony in singing, but with only two differences or varieties of tone and voice, the one murmuring the under part, the other singing the upper in a manner equally soft and pleasing". pretty conclusive evidence,eh? personally i think you should sing in harmony if (a) you likeit and (b) the audience like it, and be damned to any theorists who say different: but if you specially need a bit of history to back you up, there it is greg

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 11:45 AM

Thanks for those references, now where are the articles to be found? I have come across some of Angela de Búrca's work, but not her research on caoineadh, but I'd be interested in the research by Lillis O Laoire.

I like your theory about church music, but I have never heard of any tradition of secular harmony singing in Ireland similar to the Gaelic psalm singing of Scotland - which is an exclusively Presbyterian, or Free Kirk practice.

I'd be intrigued to learn more about the English tradition of harmony singing - I had thought that the Copper family evolved their own style partly from church singing (West Gallery as mentioned by Dave Bryant above), and also from glee songs. I remember a good article about the Copper family style by Vic Gammon on the recently released Topic CD - I'll go away and read it again.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:25 AM

hey pattyClink--I'll support your foundationless theory! I do think there are different "traditional" ways of harmonizing which are pretty old, actually. It is just that from where we sit, that type of singing doesn't fit neatly in the academic "definition of folk" (sic). Part of the problem is that so-called folk music scholars of Britain, Ireland, and the US haven't recognized and included women's traditional singing in the definition.

There isn't supposed to be call and response in Irish singing either, but if you include what women actually sing, and sang historically, call and response is part and parcel of the tradition, just as unison singing is part and parcel of the tradition.

Noreen--Lillis O Laoire has done some interesting research on the unison singing of women in Donegal, and Angela Bourke has done quite a bit of research into the women's tradition of caoineadh, or keening. Female lament, like female work songs (waulking songs) in Scotland, both use call and response, and unison singing of choruses. It is my foundationless theory that when the priesthood effectively prohibited the performance of female laments in Ireland, that women's vocal energy was put into church music, where harmony and unison singing was more the norm.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: pattyClink
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 10:04 AM

Has the Welsh harmony tradition had no influence on English vocals? Strange if not. I have a foundationless theory that the Welsh and African threads in America's population gave birth to our compulsion to harmonize.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Peg
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:41 AM

seems like some of the most memorable of the contemporary "English" bands (at any rate those singing traditional English songs) DO rely upon harmonies: The Voice Squad, Beggar's velvet, Steeleye Span, Tony Barrands and (?his partner?), etc.

peg

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Les from Hull
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 09:02 AM

I do quite a bit of harmony singing, especially on choruses. I can't really explain it any other way than I heard Chris Sugden (aka Sid Kipper) explain it, 'you find another tune that fits'. The folk club I went to in the 60s was started by the Watersons, so harmony singing was the thing to do. I remember guests who hadn't been before being quite taken aback by the strong multi-part harmony singing on choruses, as it wasn't something they were used to. My partner, Maggie, is a good natural harmony singer too.

When we've sung like this in Ireland, with harmonies, it's always been received very well, although it's something they don't hear so often - as Noreen says it's not a tradition over there. The Voice Squad (who anyone interested in harmony groups should listen to) were, I think, more inspired by English harmony groups.

I suppose what we are looking for here is, how long does it take for something to become a tradition.

Thanks for bringing this up, JJ. I'm look forward to other contributions.

Les

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:50 AM

Before the general introduction of Church Organs, the (West Gallery style) Church Choirs (and Bands) did use harmony. These choirs were not that noted for their sobriety, so the chances are, that there would have also been some harnony singing in local pubs. Although the verses of songs were probably sung solo, it seems very likely that people would have popped harmonies into any choruses. Sometimes it's a way of getting over the fact that the key doesn't suit your voice (when we sing in "Unison" there are usually people singing in different octaves). I expect there were many people who found (like the Copper Family) that they enjoyed singing in harmony and would do it as their "Party Piece".

Anyway, guitars and many of the instruments that we use today on the folk scene would most definitely not have been used much in the past for accompanying singing - except in the Church Bands which could be an extraordinary mixture - so why worry. If you can sing in harmony, then - ENJOY.

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:39 AM

I'd be interested to know more about this. I do know that there is no harmonisation in traditional Irish singing, just a pure melody line. If two sing together (for example Rita and Sarah Keane, Dolores's aunts) it is in unison.

Noreen

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: bradfordian
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 08:25 AM

I (reluctantly) sing as an unaccompanied soloist because in the folk world that's the easiest thing to do. One person in control, follow in the tradition of the minstrel etc. But creating harmonies extends the entertainment/enjoyment to many (maybe not all) listeners. I would like to be part of a small folk harmony group (I am a member of a male voice choir - which has a lot less freedom to be interpretive, but nevertheless sounds brilliant). I love to hear such groups (in the Uk) as Coope Boyes & Simpson, Artisan, Regal Slip, Notts Alliance & the (now defunct, i believe) Voice Squad from Ireland. In groups there is less emphasis on the individual, although each persons contribution can be crucial, and I think that a few more people would be encouraged to have a go than if they had to sing on their own. Variety, flexibility, hell we put up with electric guitars didn't we?

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 07:21 AM

This should be an interesting thread. I wish that I was sophisticated enough musically to describe exactly what I hear as an "English" harmony, but there is a distinctive pattern that is popular over here in the States. Maybe someone else can put it into musical terms. I've heard people sing a couple of the songs I've written which are very American Midwestern, and they sound like traditional English songs because of their choice of harmonies. Maybe my ear is atuned to the harmonies I've heard on recordings of sea chanties. Some of the harmonies on old time music are very distinctive, as are bluegrass harmonies. I never thought of harmony singing as something new in England. I know that there are people who sing traditional American folk music who resist having people sing harmony with them, even on songs with a very singeable chorus.
Jerry

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:35 AM

Not a chance, Gregory, me old mate. Plainchant rules, OK!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:30 AM

well, there are references to it going back morethan a thousand years in england, but it is obviously still a bit dangerously radical for some people. bit like using guitars to accompany folksongs. time will tell. i'd put money on harmony catching on eventually, because it sounds nice

Subject: English Folk: Harmony Singing
From: GUEST,JJ
Date: 12 Feb 02 - 06:22 AM

Is harmony singing in English folk reasonably new?

I remember reading something by Cecil Sharp (or possibly AL Lloyd) saying that harmony was 'wrong'

I know the Copper Family and the Watersons, but is this style of folk singing a recent invention?

Thanks

JJ