Can anyone learn to sing

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:38 AM

Yes - tells me nothing I didn't know, and it still doesn't answer the questions I asked.
It certainly doesn't explain why an unqualified individual (your silence on this matter confirms that this is what you are) should take it upon themself to discourage potential singers from trying to sing.
Nor does it give us any inkling as to how many 'failures' you have encountered to back up your somewhat destructive attitude (your silence on this matter suggests you have never worked with potential singers).
As we used to say in the 60s 'if you're not par of the solution, you're part of the problem'.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM

Have you read the paper ?

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:41 PM

Still doesn't anwer any of the questions - have you ever participated in a workshop with new singers and do you have expertise enough to tell someone they are 'tone deaf'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

Its the abstract from the paper in the link...

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:10 AM

To establish whether anybody is 'tone deaf' would require expert medical opinion, as would establishing whether that condition has been passed on through the family or merely a single occurrence - an isolated accident of birth.
Arbitrary diagnosis by non-experts would be both highly irresponsible medically and would act as a disincentive to anybody wishing to attempt to sing.
I would be interested to learn if you have expertise enough to diagnose 'tone deafness', or whether the above has been cut-'n-pasted from the internet.
'Tone deafness' is one of the most common reasons given by people for not being able to song; in every case I have come across it is an unqualified self-diagnosis never backed up by any medical examination whatever. It is a cop-out for not putting in the effort, usually arising by having been told by non-experts that they are 'tone-deaf'.
I would also be interested to learn what experience you have of working with aspiring singers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 10:56 PM

Congenital Amusia

Congenital amusia (commonly known as "tone deafness") is a lifelong impairment of music perception that affects 4% of the population. To estimate whether congenital amusia can be genetically transmitted, its prevalence was quantified by direct auditory testing of 71 members of 9 large families of amusic probands, as well as of 75 members of 10 control families. The results confirm that congenital amusia is expressed by a deficit in processing musical pitch but not musical time and also show that the pitch disorder has a hereditary component. In amusic families, 39% of first-degree relatives have the same cognitive disorder, whereas only 3% have it in the control families. The identification of multiplex families with a high relative risk of experiencing a musical pitch deficit (λs=10.8; 95% confidence interval 8–13.5) enables the mapping of genetic loci for hereditary amusia.

Amusia

Over 21,000 other links for Congenital Amusia

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:03 AM

Thank you guest.
The greatest barrier to overcome when attempting to encourage anybody to sing is the one carefully constructed by those who insist on telling people they can't - threads like these produce examples of people who have been discouraged in this way every time they are started.
My musical education was, I would guess, typical of anybody who came from a working-class background - no practical teaching, just an introduction to LISTENING to music - we were trained to be 'audiences'. There was never any pretence that this was the objective - our lessons were called 'musical appreciation classes'.
Our 'singing' education, if it had any practical objective, was to produce possible recruits for the school choir;if you didn't measure up then you were told you would never make a singer and instructed to sit and listen while those who could did.
Beyond that, it was listening to the same half-dozen scratch old records.
The only other singing we encountered was at the school assembly at the beginning of the day, where it didn't matter if you sang in tune or not, nobody was really listening anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Psychologist
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:11 AM

Barbara, if your son couldn't learn to sing he'd be so profoundly damaged that you couldn't hold a conversation with him.

If he talks normally, he has normal pitch perception, and the problem is you and your labelling of him. I'm not going to guess for a second what the factors were that stopped him learning to sing but it sure as hell wasn't his genes (because their aren't any).

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:39 PM

If you eveolve your own exercises there is no reason whatever to call on the services of a vocal coach.
Singing at the level most people are involved in rely on familiarity with and control of the voice.
I agree that the 'precious' world of classical singing (which I believe to be unnatural) calls for different disciplines.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:11 PM

There are people who were born with a singing proclivity and they have enlarged vocal apparatus which is suitable for opera. This is generally shown at an early age.
The rest is perspicacity combined with a drive to do this.

The raison d'etre of a good vocal coach is to help the student save his/her voice from deteriorating by the use of sound vocal technique.

Abuse of the vocal folds is common among performers who belt and strain in their styles. Unfortunately, some of this spills over into folkie territory.

We know aging performers who have lost their voices due to abuse.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 02:41 PM

"Jim Carroll believe we could all be Renoirs or Mozarts with enough hard work?"
No - of course I don't, nor Callass or Joe Heaneys ot Epsteins or Sumacs
I am talking about the basic ability to sing in tune - nothing more.
Achieving excellence such as to be found those you mentioned depends on all sorts of things.
It is totally depressingly unfair that you should set the bar so high as to put people off from even trying.
What do you suggest - we are never going to be as good as the best - most of us would never have been given the opportunity anyway - so we really shouldn't bother, but recognise our place in society; god knows, I hasd enough of that when I was at school
I was lucky enough to meet two people who were at the peak of their profession as singers, yest, instead of of pursuing their careers they chose to devote a night a week working with younger and less experienced singers - I never found out how much time they spent preparing for their workshops, but I guess it was a considerable amount.
I think myself to have been very fortunate, especially when I consider the elitists I might have met along the road.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 01:15 PM

there are two separate major componants involved with "singing" - the brain and body ( combination of vocal chords, mouth/face, hearing parts, breathing parts). there are people who are atonal because the brain connections aren't in place to synthesize the final product we call music. There are some interesting books out there on the subject - interesting for the geeks, anyway.

Assuming that the brain can interpret sound waves as music, then the question is can the body perform all the needed tasks to reproduce sound waves that another person will interpret as music/singing.

I tend to believe that if you can talk and hum, then you can learn to sing... just how well is the question. But if the physical tools are there, a person should be able to improve their singing voices with work & some guidance.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 12:52 PM

"all art is a matter of exposure and hard work " - so does Jim Carroll believe we could all be Renoirs or Mozarts with enough hard work? If one presumes the existence of talent in some, one can also presume the lack of its existence in some. Also not sure what Jim means by "inbuilt tendencies" if not heredity.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 11:46 AM

A genetic predisposition does not necessarily involve a single gene, it may involve a combination of genes. If one looks back over generations and sees a pattern, then a genetic factor is a possible explanation.

It seems in the case of Barbara's son, such an explanation should not be ruled out. Otherwise, on the whole, I agree with you, Jim.

I'm one of those who kept being told be couldn't sing till I found out otherwise. My regret was I believed them, in spite of evidence to the contrary, having sung when I was younger.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 02:45 AM

Has anybody isolated a gene which predisposes us to one particular artistic pursuit? If so, I'd be extremely grateful for more information on it.
Someone growing up in a background of music, painting or theatre is quite likely to react (positively or negatively) to these influences, but this has nothing to do with genetics, and to suggest that it has is to banish those of us not lucky enough to be born with these inbuilt tendencies out in the cold.
Sorry - all art is a matter of exposure and hard work as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:45 PM

What's curious is the genetic factor. The monotone son sang just like his monotone father. The other son (different father) is a musical prodigy and excellent singer. Both had me for a mother, both were always sung to and sung with and had therefore much the same musical nurture, different nature.

To overcome that genetic predisposition was not something the one son cared enough about to attempt to fix, and I'm not convinced it would be fixable. Your techniques and tricks with motivated students may indeed improve and correct the problems with singers without the hereditary predisposition or with marginal pitch issues, but I remain skeptical regarding my own experiences.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:32 PM

ear ear, or ere ere

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:12 AM

There are other 'tricks' - the much-derided 'finger-in-ear' - cupping the hand over the ear is a millennia-old technique universally used to stay in tune;
absolutely, i find it helps to hear oneself better, i normally make sure the hand is also on the jawbone as well as the ear

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 03:47 AM

Barbara
We worked with a number of singers with severe pitch problems - with a degree of success in all. To my recollection it was always a case of aspiring singers not knowing how to use their vocal apparatus because they had never tried to.
In such cases we started simple ten minutes or so exercises on a song with a basic tune; with our group it was usually 'Johnny Todd' - a children's song that had been naused up by being used for the theme tune of a television police series.
The 'victim' would be asked to learn it and bring it back a week later. If they were having problems we devoted some time per session to it, usually by getting one of the group to sing a line and asking the 'struggler' to repeat the line. We persisted with this for as long as he or she was prepared to put in the time; these weren't in any way "extensive efforts at great lengths", simply persevering.
There are other 'tricks' - the much-derided 'finger-in-ear' - cupping the hand over the ear is a millennia-old technique universally used to stay in tune; as is learning to relax, tension being one of the basic causes of not being able to control pitch.      
We all learned practice pieces to improve different aspects of our singing:
Mouth music (Tail Toddle) for accuracy and breath control - a verse and a chorus in 1 breath.
A piece of Gilbert and Sullivan for diction accuracy at speed.
A Wagner piece ('Tis Ended) for handling large intervals
Another (By Evil Craft) for unusually small intervals.
Etc....
Once they are learned they remain with you, I still use them forty years on when my voice is rusty.
The voice needs to be viewed as a musical instrument if you want to sing - nobody would expect to pick up a fiddle or a concertina and play it right away, and they'd be daft to abandon the idea if it didn't work out first time round.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 09:20 PM

In fact I never told the "monotones" I knew that they couldn't sing: they told me. We all sang anyway, some of us closer to pitch than others.

You could be right, Jim Carroll, that with extensive effort at great lengths, they could be taught to correct the pitch problems. I only know that these two tried quite a bit for quite awhile and finally settled for happily singing off-key.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 12:07 PM

It needed saying.
I get a little tired of people who think they can telling others that they can't.
Perhaps if people who have worked with others, as either recipients or helpers, shared their successes and failures with us, we might learn where and where not to go rather than telling others that they'll never make singers while they have holes in their a****.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 11:02 AM

"I was lucky enough to have met people who were willing to pass on what they knew and share what they had in order to help me develop whatever little ability and interest I might have started out with."

Same here, Jim. Thanks for saying that.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 11:00 AM

I hear the echoes here of the teachers who told me that I couldn't sing, nor would I be able to, so to attempt to try was a waste of my time.
The same teachers were also telling me that all I needed to know when I left school was to be able to tot up my wage packet when I left whatever factory I managed to get a job in, at the end of the week. It was an damning arrogance that put me off music altogether until a series of happy accidents re-introduced me to it and gave me a love (obsession) that has dominated my life for half a century.
Nobody has the right to tell anybody they "can't" sing until they know what lengths they have gone to to learn, and, for that matter, how much effort they are prepared to put in to achieve some sort of a result.
I was lucky enough to have met people who were willing to pass on what they knew and share what they had in order to help me develop whatever little ability and interest I might have started out with.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:31 AM

I'd quite like a singing voice with built in tremolo and overdrive distortion
just like a good vintage Vox AC30 guitar amp...

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:20 AM

Oh don't teach them vibrato, they'll end up sounding like Bryan Ferry. ;)

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 10:17 AM

Well hello again. I said it before (1998 above) and I'll say it again. No, everyone cannot learn to sing. It's likely that everyone can gain some improvement in their vocal quality and delivery, learn things like breath control, vibrato, phrasing, better tonal quality. What I insist, however, is that some cannot reproduce correct pitch. I have seen it in my family. Pitch imperfect, never to be learned.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 06:47 AM

I went to a voice coach and asked him:"Can you train my voice?". He replied, after my audition :"Not even with a chair and a whip".

RtS
"Most of the words and some of the notes"

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 02:46 AM

Singing is a natural function like walking. People may not like the way you walk, but unless you've got some medical problem, you can sing.

I alway like something Christopher Isherwood the writer (Cabaret) said, go to the seashore stand in the crashing waves and make up operas, sing them to the sky...

I suppose anywhere except down the folk club (that's me!)

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Oct 12 - 01:15 AM

Some fairly recent studies by apparently qualified researchers have identified certain unusual characteristics in a few people that would suggest that learning to sing may be impossible, or so difficult that they are unlikely to be interested in the attempt.

Although probably rare, there are some who simply can't recognize differences between sounds of different pitches. There are others, similarly rare, who "aint' got no rythm" and really can't dance. In a few cases reported, the individuals not only are unlikely ever to be able to sing, in the conditions studied "they can't even learn to listen" to the extent of being able to recognize and distinguish between music and street noises.

It is unlikely that persons with these conditions will ever show up at a "how to sing" session, so belief in the ability of those who do come to improve on their abilities is justified. It probably is not appropriate to assume that everybody can learn to sing or even that everybody wants to.

For those who really do want to learn how, it's possible that the specification and "giving a name" to some of the barriers may be helpful to those who find themselves attempting to help, in some cases. Individuals with those handicaps probably need very professional help.

For the "social singers" just wanting to help a few who have indicated an interest and are already able to at least "croak interestingly" those studies probably are not something to be concerned about.

Even though it appears that there really are some people who simply can't learn to sing, it is likely that anyone who recognizes and enjoys listening to music probably can learn to join the choir in appropriate situations.

For willing people of the latter kind, good teachers and skilled persons to sing with can help a lot.

John

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM

Anyone can learn to sing. But not everyone can learn to sing. I offer your humble correspondent as proof.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:09 PM

I don't mind individuals singing off key by themselves but I find it very difficult if there is a group of people singing and one offkey person...mg

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:07 PM

Acording to my mother,
I was a good singer and enjoyed singing solo at infant school.

I have no memory of why I stopped, or if I still sang at junior school.

At Grammar School our music teacher was ex army
and seemed to resent being stuck teaching us
instead of travelling the world persuing his dreams.

He was strict in going through the motions inflicting classical music upon us.

If he ever made me sing in class
it may have been so traumatising my memory is wiped
with permanent amnesia...???

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:06 PM

It needs to be remembered that the natural, open 'folk' voice is considered ugly by many conventional (particularly classically trained) exponents and teachers.
If anybody tells you you are incapable of singing, get a second opinion - preferably from somebody familiar with the genre that interests you.   
In thirty odd years of work with singers I never met anybody who "couldn't sing" - plenty who were not used to it, and hundreds who had been told they would never be able to, but none who couldn't be developed with a little work.
Group work on individual singers really worked wonders with many new singers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM

Ok, let me add something. If people walk away when you sing, or no one asks you to sing, you probably shouldn't.

I can't speak for anyone else, but people who sing off key drive me bonkers.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 01:02 PM

When my friend, Gordon was in grammar school he was told that he was a monotone.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:44 PM

Inflict away, the "whole world" can deal with it.
It's not so much the people who wish to sing badly in your face who are the problem, but those who've been told they can't sing, and believe it. It's the ones who want to silence them. Ain't gonna happen anyway.

The teachers who tell children for whom they're responsible they "can't sing", are really saying they can't teach.

I started writing a song. I think I should finish it.

Once I had to learn to walk
Then I learned to tie my shoe
And my teachers taught the alphabet
And adding 2 + 2
I didn't know how to do those things
But no one ever said
"You can't do that, so you'll have to go
Outside and play instead"

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:33 PM

But don't inflict it on the whole world, even if you have the technology.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:29 PM

why, of course......anyone can learn to sing!
And everyone should.
Whether or not you can sing in public and be appreciated by others...well, I still would vote for doing it if it makes you happy.
Singing is meant to be a natural as a breath...self judgement is the biggest critic.

Just do it!

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 09:32 AM

Jeri, these new prosthetic s do replace lost legs, but they are still one legged people.

Try this analogy No Mule ever won the Kentucky Derby. They simply lack the physical ability.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 03:49 AM

It's been my experience' after 20 odd years of working in singing workshops with people of varying levels of starting skills, that unless there is actual physical damage or deformity of the vocal equipment (extremely rare) that anybody can sing. Some find it harder than others - in the long run, development of the voice depends entirely on the amount of time and effort you are prepared to put in, both at the beginning and throughout the time you wish to sing.
In The Critics Group, and later in the London Singers Workshop (and various other groups), we used a series of voice developing, singing and relaxation exercises to develop and maintain the voice - they worked for those who were prepared to use them.
The danger was, if you were not careful they could become an objective in themselves rather than a means to an end.
Singing is, or should be, the passing on of emotions, ideas and information via musical sounds married to poetic texts - the voice is the means by which you do this - a collection of tools, all with specific functions which you learn to understand, control and keep in good shape so they are fit for purpose.
Not everybody is going to reach the same level of skill, but if we let this be a factor we would never do anything - you will always find someone who is better than you at whatever you try.
I have to say that I find the logic of the modern method of 'teaching singing', at the various singing weekends I have attended - the passing out of texts, teaching the tune, than singing from the sheet "parrot-fashion", totally unfathomable.
'Learning to sing' is a long-term job which, in my opinion, has to begin with becoming familiar with your voice in order that you can take control of it and push out to the boundaries you feel you want or need to.
As the feller said, the way to The Carnegie Hall or wherever is 'practice' - I don't believe there are any shortcuts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Oct 12 - 12:54 AM

Apparently I was a good enough singer in infant school
to do solo spots on the stage in morning assembly.
But totally lost interest not long after.

By my late teens I was such a self-concious adolescent
I wasn't even capable of braving up to doing backing vocals
in our punk band...

Tried a couple of times at band practice and completely froze with fear.

Teen band scene social drug experimentation induced panic attacks did't help much either...

Never ever attempted singing again
[unless extraordinarily drunk in later life].

But I somehow think I may need to try again
just for the sake of recording demo tracks at home.

I'm obviously older now and much more self assured
and confident at things I'm good at
- and I'm sufficiently mature not to give a shit if I do embarrass myself in public.

My problem nowadays, is that even if I do have a raw innate talent for singing
that could be nurtured by a good teacher,
I no longer have a good enough memory for lyrics...

bollocks....

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM

Alice is doing a service here. One of the most important things said is:
"I think the hardest thing to do for most beginners is to concentrate on the music instead of the emotion. It feels awful not to concentrate on the emotion, but concentrating on the music will eventually pay off."

When you go for the emotions, you can sometimes tie up the cords.

As to vocal quality, one of my favorite singers is Louis Armstrong. (Go figure)

Then, Tony Bennett.

I like Jussi Boerling and Pavarotti too and Renee Fleming.

They all have found their individual voice and just like a fingerprint, everyone's voice is different. The trick is to find your natural voice and this comes with some kind of training.

I think it's very important to find a good vocal teacher who can mirror correct technique for you which you can't get from books and tapes.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 05:39 PM

Neat article here with good remarks about singing, etc.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 04:25 PM

Kendall: not so true anymore.

I've heard that pitch sensitivity can be taught/learned, and I don't know enough to argue against it. I'm pretty sure Pete Seeger once wrote an article on it. I'm "pretty sure" because I remember reading it, or about it in SingOut!

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM

A one legged man can not win a foot race.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 04:16 PM

Babara is right, no. If your ears are unable to tell the difference between a 440 aND A 438 YOU WILL SING FLAT.
Iq has nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Mark Clark
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 02:15 PM

Leeneia said “There are only a few normal people who absolutely cannot learn to sing a tune.” I would argue that just because those people aren't missing limbs or suffer from sensory deficiencies doesn't mean they are "normal." The inability to learn to sing is probably the result of a learning disorder or other handicap. Scientists are telling us that singing probably came before language in human development.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: John P
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:35 AM

I think it all depends on what you mean by "learn to sing". I agree that almost anyone can get from bad to adequate, but I've never heard anyone get to professional quality who didn't start with a lot of natural talent.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 09:19 AM

Nonsense. Anybody has the right to try. And perhaps with a skilled teacher, the brother and brother-in-law could learn to sing.

There are only a few normal people who absolutely cannot learn to sing a tune. (Handicapped people seem to be a different story.) The rest of us either do it naturally or can be coached.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 15 Oct 12 - 07:53 AM

I'd say 95% can learn to some degree, but if you'd heard my Brother and Brother-in-law, you'd realise there are a few who really shouldn't even try