BS: Figure skate judging mess

Subject: Figure skate judging mess
From: Gary T
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:33 AM

Curious to know what anyone has read/heard about this. The latest thing I read was in today's (Thur.) morning paper.

The news article was confusing. It seemed to say that NBC heard the French judge admit to being pressured to cast her vote for the Russians, the French Association head said she was honest but was pressured, and the International Association head saying that she was accused of something but denied it. Of course said head (Ottavio Cinquanta) was also quoted as saying the results could not be changed and then retracting that statement. I'm not sure I find him very credible.

A columnist who rankled me yesterday by essentially asserting that the judging all came down to a matter of taste is now ackowledging that there's more to it than that, and is all but saying that there will be something done. Most likely this would be awarding a gold medal to the Canadian couple, while allowing the Russian couple to keep theirs. Strikes me as an unclean way to settle things.

I can't help but wonder, if it is decided that there was a judging error and the Canadians are awarded gold, would anyone even consider at least asking (not necessarily demanding) that the Russians accept the silver? While I'm sure that would not be what they'd prefer to do, they perhaps agree that it should have been that way in the first place, and might go along with it to effect a neater outcome. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:19 PM

I'd heard this morning on a news-radio station that the Canadian contingent says they want to have their skaters awarded a gold medal, but that they'd be content to let the Russians keep theirs also.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:34 PM

This was part of an AP report:

The head of the French Olympic team said Wednesday night that a judge from his country was pressured to "act in a certain way" before she voted to give the gold to the Russians over the Canadians.

The admission came after the International Olympic Committee made the unusual move of telling the International Skating Union to settle the mess that began Monday night and settle it fast. Hours earlier, the ISU president said he received "certain allegations" from the American referee who oversaw the judging and that he was trying to protect the integrity of his sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:39 PM

I have to many opinions to type out Gary.......

Bottom line.....You would have had to be blind not to give the Canadians the Gold. It was not the Russians fault, but the Canadians should at least have a Gold of their own. A separate ceremony would be the very least, not just a back door "here ya' go" thing. The Russians had a newer and slightly more artistic program so it's conceivable that they could at best have tied. I don't care what they do with the Russians but the Canucks need the medal AND the ceremony!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:46 PM

I'm with Spaw. It's not the athletes' fault that the judges possibly behaved wrongly. The Russian pair worked hard to get to the Olympics too, and they really are very good... the Canadians just outskated them, and to me it's pretty obvious.

Mister and I were talking, though, and if it were me..... I'd have a really hard time keeping that gold medal, if I knew that 1) I might not have won it solely on the basis of my own merits and 2) someone else really did better than me.

Correct me if I'm wrong - people have tied for medals before, yes? Why could we not just call it a tie and be done with it?

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: MMario
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 01:51 PM

Did anyone else see the split screen broadcast where the same elements performed by both teams during their actual performance were shown?

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Justa Picker
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 02:53 PM

Well I had actually heard that the Canadians did in fact win the gold but with the exchange rate between Canada and the U.S. silver was the equivalent value.

(....running and ducking for cover....)

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 02:57 PM

Yes. I thought that the Russians looked like the more artistic skaters in general, but that they were having a bad night, and thus that the mistakes made the Canadians look more artistic (to me) that particular night. I thought the total effect was the Candians should have been awarded first place not only technically, but artistically, as a result.

But the judges ARE allowed to overlook tech mistakes in judging the artisitc side of the skating-- that is why there are two sets of marks.

I agree that if the investigation warrrants, the Olympic Committee should decide all by itself to make a special exception to the usual procedures and give them a gold too, in a separate ceremony.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: allie kiwi
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 03:28 PM

The Olypmics is about Sport. If we are talking about sport, then the technical aspect should outweigh the artistic. Full stop. The artistic is to get viewers.

Do we give runners or javelin throwers extra points for throwing or running gracefully? And base a gold medal on this???

Allie

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: RolyH
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:29 PM

I just can't see how an activity that relies on somebody's personal opinion to decide who is the winner can be classed as "sport"

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: MMario
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:38 PM

umpires don't have opinions? frequently at odds with the opinions of players and coaches on exactly the same plays?

I've seen fouls both called and ignored in basketball that were blatently the oppisete (and shown to be the oppisete call via video replay).

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: baywop
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:43 PM

Geeeeez, Its Figure skating!!! Who cares??? at least the Eastern Bloc doesn't judge as a bloc anymore... For getaboutit bring on the Hockey!!

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 04:55 PM

I posted this on another thread that's dropped off the bottom, but it's actually more appropriate here. My sister is out of town right now, but I'm looking forward to hearing what her thoughts are about this.

--------------------------------------------

My two sisters were figure skaters, and they got up into the pretty rarefied atmosphere of the sport. My older sister, Mary, and her partner, Donald Laws, won the National Silver Dance Championship in 1948. Then she turned professional and went to teach skating in Kingston, Ontario. Married, retired, raised a batch of kids, still living there. My younger sister, Pat, won the National Junior Ladies in 1953 and went on to skate in the World Championships in Vienna in 1955. She placed seventh, behind Tenley Albright who had won it three times and Carol Heiss who went on to win five times. So my kid sister was out there playin' with the big kids. She also turned professional, taught various places including Portland, Oregon (she remembers giving some lessons to a feisty little blond kid named Tonya Harding). Married, retired, raised a batch of kids, currently living in Newcastle, across Lake Washington from Seattle.

As a result, I've seen a helluva lot of figure skating, including a number of National Championships.

Sale and Pelletier laid down the most shiningly flawless program I have ever seen.

I was aware that there is frequent hanky-panky among the judges and that vote-trading goes on, but this was the most blatant travesty I have ever seen. I couldn't believe they would be so obvious about it. I hope the appropriate authorities investigate the bejesus out of this, permanently disqualify the judges involved, and right the wrong that's been done. After all, everything is on videotape, and both programs can easily be studied and analyzed. But I doubt it will happen.

I haven't had a chance to talk to my sister Pat about this, but I'll sure be interested to hear what she has to say.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 05:30 PM

It's a silly way to judge who's the winner or loser anyway. I'd be hugely surprised if there's ever been one completely honest result in Olympic figure skating. Remember the "bloc voting" of a few years ago? All the Eastern bloc countries supported each other in pairs competition. perhaps the silliest incident of all was when Tonya Harding was even ALLOWED to skate after what she allowed to be done to Nancy kerrigan. Better they use an audience applause metre.

If ya really want to know what makes for a (reasonably) honest competition, look for bettors, and Las Vegas odds makers. Gamblers NEVER bet on Sports where they think the fix is probably in (unless they're doin' the fixin')

You didn't see the high rollers betting on XFL football games, because they knew that Vince McMahon MIGHT be running it like his wrestling shows.

I saw the skating though, and I think it was pretty close, but it seems obvious that the judge was compromised anyway. Two gold medal? Yuchhhh, THAT'S the compromise?

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 06:00 PM

If we are going to get rid of esthetics, I guess there goes diving, too.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 07:55 PM

Is the sport on the skids? I haven't seriously watched it since Torvil & Dean, some things are good & some just SHINE. There seems no predictable logic to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Beer
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 10:16 PM

I watched the results, and yes I was upset as many Canadians were/are. But so were a number of other countries. I only hope that through all this that Jamie and David are getting some personal support. The media has grabbed this story and rightly they should, but these two are just in their early years of maturity. Lets hope for both of them that they will be O.K.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: 53
Date: 14 Feb 02 - 11:34 PM

Who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Blackcatter
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 12:58 AM

Remember that with the exception for doping issues, no olympian has ever been asked to give up a medal, nor has a final descision been changed. Not saying there isn't a first time for everything, but this one is a pretty big hill to climb.

Frankly, I've never understood the concept of awarding prizes to the "winners." As far as I'm concerned, the competitiveness that grows out of most sports is a serious negative for the human community.

Try to do your best , but try not to rub your success in others noses. To do that lessesn your own achievement.

Then again, I got a perfect score on my GREs so nah, nah, nah...

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 01:36 AM

On NPR, today, they cited several cases, from the early 1900's on, of such controversy. One included a dirty judge AND the judge who blew the whistle, both, being permanently disqualified!

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 04:28 AM

Blackcatter: ...with the exception for doping issues, no olympian has ever been asked to give up a medal, nor has a final descision been changed.

'no ... ever' is an expression that nearly ever is wrong. Who can know all the facts way back to 1896 about the Olympics?

In the early Olympics having competed for money was a frequent reason for to being asked to give up a medal after it was won (e.g., Jim Thorpe; he got it back decades later when he was dead)

One of the more ridiculous cases was that boxer Johansson had to give up an already won silver medal in 1952 for 'cowardice'. The idea is that the loser of a boxing final is awarded the silver medal, but Johansson never started a single attack in the final and ran away all the time.

There are more examples but these two suffice.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: RichM
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 04:36 AM

Ho hum. Skaters have lived with this situation for decades, without substantial complaint. Josée Chouinard, a champion Canadian skater,said it's like complaining at work about your boss. Gets YOU shafted, not the boss.

Something else: How can ice dancing be considered a sport? It's an art, like ballet. A sport has a defined scoring system, that should be judgeable by a 6 year old: you either score, or you don't!

IMHO...

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: IvanB
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:05 AM

Sport: 1. An active pastime, recreation. 2. A specific diversion, usually involving physical exercise and having a set form and body of rules; game. (American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition, more definitions given, but not apropos)

Given these definitions, I believe that the current ice skating disciplines represented in the Olympics are certainly sports. As far as subjectivity in judging, as it's been pointed out above, that exists in many sports as well. A six year old may well be able to determine the score of a football game by the numbers of touchdowns, field goals, etc., but I doubt s/he would be able to determine all the penalties, ball placements and the like that go into reaching those goals.

And as for "art," don't we thrill to a particularly well executed play in any field sport? I'm convinced aesthetics is involved in practically any endeavor in which we participate or which we watch. And the subjectivity factor has caused scandal in numerous sports when unfairly applied. Ice skating merely happens to be a sport with a larger degree of subjectivity than most and happens to be under well deserved scrutiny right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: IvanB
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:11 AM

Damn, sorry about that. I edited out the /B and forgot to reinsert it.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:29 AM

It seems that we consider corrupt figure skating judges to be more worth getting upset about than corrupt political leaders or corrupt high-level business executives.

Could that be the real explanation of where we're going and why we're all in this handbasket?

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 01:25 PM

Just announced on the radio about 10 minutes ago: The Canadian pair WILL be awarded a gold medal, and the French judge is suspended! No word about whether the Russian pair will keep the gold medal already awarded to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 01:39 PM

Russian pair will keep their Gold Medals. Wry :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 01:57 PM

John: Did you hear or read that in an announcement, or are you predicting that that will happen? Just curious, since I haven't heard anything since I last posted here.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: John Routledge
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:03 PM

Sorry Sharon - My comment was part of the official announcement.

My smile reflected the standing of logic on its head in reaching the decision - well known of sporting organisations!!

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:04 PM

According to CBC, the French judge was suspended and her marks were tossed out, resulting in a tie for first.

Here's the story

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM

Never mind! The story's on the net already and, yes, the Russians will keep their medal as well.

Here's one article: ABCNews.com – Canadians Share Gold with Russians

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: gnu
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:43 PM

Justa Picker... you owe me a beer... I dropped mine laughing !!! You oughta warn a fella !

Hey... when the ref makes a call, that's the call. If you don't like the rules, change the rules, but don't get your knickers in a twist over the results. Now, I'm as patriotic as the next guy and I believe in fair play, but the rules are the rules. Better to be like a real Canuck and graciously accept the fact that you actually did win but didn't get the medal. Shit, we've been doing it for a long time. You'd think we would have had it down to a science by now.

BTW, did anyone catch that men's Canada vs Sweden curling match last night ? It's a good thing there were no judges on that one because Canada would have lost by a million points, rather than just by one. But they were true Canucks... have you EVER seen anyone APOLOGIZE to the other team for scoring points in an undeserved fashion !!!??? That's CLASS !!! Even if they don't get the gold, (and they still might just do it) they are gold in my books. Go gold, lads !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: DougR
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 02:45 PM

I think our Canadian friends can be very proud of their new Gold Medal winners. They are certainly great ambassadors for their country. I'm watching the news conference with them, and the are as impressive off the ice as on.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 03:10 PM

Didn't this same thing happen a few Summer Olympics ago in Synchronized Swimming? I seem to recall a controversy (once again involving Canada being awarded the Silver) where they were later declared co-winners of the Gold. If I recall correctly Jays catcher Ed Sprague's wife was on the Gold medal winning American team.

Tied for Gold. To use an old sports cliche, like kissing your sister.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 03:36 PM

According to the reports, the French Judge admitted pressure was put on her to change her point count. It is rumored that the French Federation put the pressure, not other judges.
One commentator said the French judge may well turn out to be a hero for admitting her weakness, and that this may increase the likelihood of a shakeup in the judging rules. We will probably never get the full story, but an error has been corrected in the best possible way. Removing the medal from the Russian pair would be unthinkable.
Justa Picker, we here in Canada can certainly laugh, but ironically, about the exchange rate. We get culture shock every time we go to the grocery to but fruits and vegetables, which for much of the year come from the US or Latin America and Asia.
Finally, I can't imagine skating judged solely on technical content.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Guessed
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 03:37 PM

2 gold medals? every one a winner.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Genie
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:08 AM

gnu, Bad calls are one thing; collusion to "fix" the result is quite another.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:51 AM

I certainly agree, Genie. Shortly after I made that post, I learned of the French judge's admission of pressure. Unfortunate, but at least it's now out in the open and can be dealt with. Now, if something like that became apparent during a hockey game, the ref would look like a penguin in the jaws of Orca... white, black and RED.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:24 PM

Steve Latimer, in the Syncronized Swimming episode a Brazilian judge pressed the wrong button when entering her marks. She knew she'd made a mistake and called an official over quickly to change it. His reaction was that it couldn't be changed now she'd entered it. If she had been allowed to show what she thought the Canadian would have won gold without any fuss. It was a different situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:51 PM

I sent without finishing...

With one judge removed they still only tied. Shouldn't they go to penalty shots to get a winner?

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: GUEST,bob schwarer
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 05:46 PM

A bit ago the US basketball team got shafted,. Officials reset the clock not once but twice to give the opponent time to score.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: gnu
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:11 PM

Irish bobsled team ? IRISH BOBSLED TEAM ? Jamaicans I can understand, but what the hell are the Irish smoking ?

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: GUEST,Don Hackman
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:29 PM

Olympic judging
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russia's skaters have been sublime
since 1965.
Judges know best
how to score the contest.
They help the sport survive

Forget the scores and judge all sport
like our beloved baseball.
Winners are picked
by the love they inflict.
So the Cubs and Red Sox will win ALL.


don hakman2002

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: GUEST,Just Wondering
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:23 PM

Ok, the French judge has been berated for bowing to pressure - she has scurried off in disgrace. My question - why have the folks who pressured her not been revealed and condemned in the same vein? O No!! Do we have yet another example of scapegoatism (is that a word?). Shame on ALL involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 12:27 AM

Many times I have been asked to adjudicate for music contests for public school music students. The kids practice for months in anticipation of the contests. The judges do their best to be fair & impartial. Our kids depend upon us to do our best for them. We are volunteers. We always have to pay our transportation, lodging if necessary, and this we do for the love of & need for, music in our schools. Unfortunately, there is big money tied up in the International Olympics business. Whenever you have big money involved, there will always be dishonest people. If judging these events were looked upon as having umpires & referrees, then perhaps we could have trust in the manner in which the events would be umpired & refereed. This, of course, would require a complete change in the rules. Umpires & referees must be educated & paid, accepted as professionals. There is a strict policy in place for major league baseball & pro football, (and little league too!) and this could apply for adjucating Olympic events, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Genie
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 05:23 AM

Kaleea, I agree. As much as sports like diving, gymnastics, figure skating, etc., will always have some subjectivity in their scoring, there are ways to reduce the judge-to-judge variability and minimize the influence of both political and personal taste bias. [Gymnastics, freestyle skiing, and diving, for example, have not had near the controversy over judging that figure skating has, and within figure skating, ice dancing has been the worst of all for arbitrary point assignment.)

First, judges should be paid, well trained, and subject to severe sanctions for misconduct (e.g. not giving mandatory deductions when called for, as in the case of Plushenko in this year's short/compulsory program or in the case of Grischuk and Platov in the 1994 Olympic ice dance competition).

Second, scores should not be converted to ordinals until the results of all phases (e.g., compulsory and free program) are completed. And the high and low scores should be discarded.

Third, as in diving and in gymnastics vault, the maximum value of a given program (if executed perfectly) should be determined in advance, so that the skater will know whether he or she needs to increase the difficulty or alter the program composition. As it is now, judges can (and seemingly do) decide arbitrarily and inconsistently how much weight the quality of spins, footwork, and program connectedness should be given in scoring. If they like a skater they often seem to overlook such things as travelling on spins or not having difficult footwork sequences; if they don't want a skater to rank high, they seem to give little or no credit for superior spins and footwork. The ISU just has not made it clear what portion of the overall score should be based on the various elements such as jumps, spins, speed, fancy footwork, or even just plain good form in basic skating (e.g., edges). It's as though the judges can sort of make up their own rules as to what is important and not even apply those rules consistently from one skater to another!

Fourth, since the presentation score is more subjective than the technical merit score, if skating is to be viewed as a sport, ties should be resolved in favor of the higher technical score, not the higher presentation score. Also, the presentation score should be clearly and severely limited by the technical score. If you only get a 5.5 on technique, you should not be able to get a 6.0 on presentation. This is understood and practiced somewhat at present, but judges have too much leeway. (Again, Plushenko totally blew both his quad jump and his required combination jump --mandatory .5 to .7 deduction--in the short program but was put in 4th place (above several skaters who did quads and all required elements cleanly) mostly by judges who gave him 5.8's and 5.9's on presentation. It was pretty clear that some judges expected/wanted him to medal, so they used that presentation mark to compensate for a screwed up compulsory program.
Frankly, I'd like to see the "artistry" part judged by multiplying the technical merit score by some factor reflecting style and presentation--with emphasis on good form, rather than on whether the judge shares the skater's taste in music, costume design, or dance style.

I doubt very much that these changes will be forthcoming, but I think there's hope that "skategate" may help instigate SOME reforms in the direction of better standardization of judging.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Genie
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 02:56 AM

Steve and Sophocleese, in the synchronized swimming incident there were two gold medals awarded eventually.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 06:18 AM

Interesting, how different and sometimes misleading newspaper accounts can be.

Kat has cited AP: The head of the French Olympic team said Wednesday night that a judge from his country was pressured to "act in a certain way" before she voted to give the gold to the Russians over the Canadians.

From that sentence you would gather that the pressure was to vote for the Russians though it isn't printed explicitely but left to you to guess.

In her interview with L'Equipe yesterday the French judge said she was pressured by the ISU (International Skating Union) to vote for the Canadians. Since she mentioned Ms. Stapleford from England as one putting pressure on her it is clear why the folks putting the pressure on her will not be condemned in the same way. Ms. Stapleford is the chairwoman of the ISU commission.

Since the French judge, Ms. Le Gougne, said immediately after the day of judgement that the French skating Union had put pressure on her to vote for the Russians we may conclude that either she doesn't know what she's talking about for telling very different stories on different days or that there was pressure on her from many sides having different intentions.

I hate figure skating.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Genie
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:28 AM

Wolfgang, It's really sad that figure skating can't come up with some criteria for judging that can elevate judging AT LEAST to the level of objectivity of boxing and other subjectively scored sports!

I don't think the problem is as much figure skating as it is a lack of standards and accoutability.

Genie (who can't do more than a single-rotation jump)

Subject: RE: BS: Figure skate judging mess
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:46 AM

Yes, Genie, they could look for comparison to the snowboard halfpipe competition or the trick ski and other sports. These competitions have at least a scoring system in which difficulty is assessed independent from human judges and in which it is made clear before the competition what the relative contribution of a specific component will be. They should, as they have now discussed, randomly select from a larger number of judges and they should get rid of the ranking system which leads to predictable injustices.

In addition to that they should make clear for the spectators who is leading before the finals by how many points. In this and in another thread I had the impression that many Mudcatters based their assessments upon the final and nothing else and forgot to take into account the performance the day before. I doubt that many of those who have formed an impression have seen the first part of the competition.

Wolfgang