BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'

Subject: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:06 PM

I have seen "feck" and "fecking" so often on Mudcat that I must assume that "feck" is a real word, albeit one with which I was hitherto unfamiliar.

Would I be correct in assuming that it is some sort of American variation on the good old Anglo-Saxon word, and that when a mamber tells a guest to "feck off", what is really being intended is "fuck off ?

Or does the word mean something else altogether?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:10 PM

I thought it was a British variation. I've never heard anyone here in the US use "feck". Around here (southeastern PA), popular variants are "friggin' " and "freak" (as in "What the freak is wrong with this friggin' car? It won't freakin' start!").

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:11 PM

I believe it's an Irish variation, Murray. (See the Drumcree threads for details.) What probably confused you is that it was popularized in the U.S. by the great Irish-American actor, Gregory Puck.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:12 PM

No Sharon, in Britain we don't use such euphemisms ....

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:16 PM

Oh, gawd, Mark, that was baaaadd!LMAO!

Murray, I hadn't really seen it written until coming to the Mudcat where I saw those of Irish origin use it. Since, I've listened for it on shows we catch on tv and have heard it, again, with characters which are being presented as having something to do with an Irish background.

I use it sometimes because it seems less crude to me, than Pfuck!**BG**

kat

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:22 PM

well, a web search got 1892 hits on 'feckin', most with the usage we see here, so it is neither common, nor rare.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:25 PM

I learned it from the TV show "Father Ted"

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:29 PM

Ah, Clinton has shed light on the matter.

Now my question is, do people in Ireland actually say "fecking" or is it a euphemistic neologism coined by the TV writers?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:38 PM

They actually say it. I never cease to be amazed at how ignorant the British are of the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Drumshanty
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:41 PM

I learned it in 1985 from a college friend, who came (very proudly) from Limerick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 05:54 PM

Well, GUEST, I have roomed with Irish students, ( in the 70's ) and I never heard any of them say "feck", which makes me think it is a relative neologism, since they said "fuck" plenty.

So where in the realms of Irish literature might one find the earliest written example of to this quaint and charming euphemism ?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:09 PM

Well, this site makes for some interesting reading on it, by an Irishman: click and scroll down a ways. Here's an excerpt:

The huge popularity in Britain of the sitcom, ahem, TV Comedy Father Ted - surrealist escapades of three Irish Catholic priests exiled to a remote island off the west coast of Ireland - brought several Irishisms into common use over the water, and one in particular *back* into common usage in Ireland: 'feck'.

This word has nothing much to do with 'fuck', but can be used a more - for all intents and purposes - polite version. Mothers let out a 'feck' in front of the kids, I mean children, rather than use an expletive. 'Feck off!' doesn't mean 'fuck off', but rather, 'get lost', or 'get outa here', or put in slightly more polite Irishness, 'get away outa that!'.

Curiously enough, it has other uses, we used to go feckin' apples when I was a child, or at least when I was a younger child. No, we weren't desperate to passionately copulate with the neighbours' Cox's Orange Pippins, but instead we were liberating these fine fruits from their desperate bondage at the hands of a cruel orchard owner. A 'fecker', on the other hand, could be a slightly more slimy eel than a chancer.

A tale shared with me recently involved a bunch of young German tourists, who were out in the back end of nowhere in the Irish countryside, and were confronted by local oul fella, who greeted them with a customary 'howareye?', but was gone before they had time to form any semblance of a reply. They were understandably perplexed, not realising that everyone in this neck of the woods greets each other in the shape and form of 'howareye?' i.e. 'how are you?' or 'howszitgoin?' (how is it going?). These strange questions, especially from someone you've never levelled your eyes on before, are merely a form of 'asking after' one's health, i.e enquiring into their well-being, to which the customary answer is to either ask the same in return, or to reply in the positive, for instance 'oh, I'm grand, thanks'. Whether or not you are scraping at death's door for mercy at the time of interrogation is entirely irrelevant.

So, the next time a person you've met before offers you craic, asks questions without needing answers or simply tells you to 'feck off', relax, have a pint. They're probably just Irish...

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: swirlygirl
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:10 PM

feck

\Feck\, n. [Abbrev. fr. effect.] 1. Effect. [Obs.]

2. Efficacy; force; value. [Scot. & Prov. Eng.]

3. Amount; quantity. [Scot. & Prov. Eng.]

He had a feck o' books wi' him. --R. L. Stevenson.

The most feck, or The feck, the greater or larger part. ``The feck o' my life.'' --Burns.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

Now is this the same feck or different and how would we know if we don't really know where the first feck came from?

hm?

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:36 PM

Feck has quite a number of meanings. One is to steal (see KatL, above), in print by 1809.
Others- "This is the feck of our intent- from 1500. Also efficiency, energy, power, the greater part of something, one of the stomachs of a ruminant. All of these are English, Scottish or obsolete.
I have heard the Irish use it, (Feck it!), say, when you drop a brick on your toe, i. e., Oh Fuck! or Shit! Definitely not American, where Darn is the preferred expletive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:41 PM

I appreciate the research Kat, but I would still like to see a reference to some piece of pre-1970 Irish literature containing the word.

No doubt somebody will oblige ....

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:01 PM

Well, I've been educated. I just assumed it was an Irish version of fuck! Very interesting.

I never use it myself, just tend to use the real thing, but I have often used "fock." I have no idea if there is some other meaning to such a word, but I started using it because that's the way I used to "hear" it...phonetically... as a kid growing up in an Italian-American-Community.   "Hey ya' can tell the focker I got his fockin' answer right here!" And actually, that's pretty close to the sound of it coming out of my mouth too.   And of course when my son Michael was 3, he turned to another kid that was bothering him and said, "Hey...Ya' fockin asshole!".........Perfect inflection....a chip off the old block.

So before that one comes up, now you know. Wasn't it a Norman Mailer piece that was cone in WWII that drew commentary because he used another phonetic spelling......fug?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:08 PM

Feck is an Irish slang euphemism for 'fuck' and is part of eveyday usage in Ireland, where swearing is also commonplace among all classes (though there is a "proper" English spoken without the swearing--the context commonly is English for public consumption, ie the media, in university courses, in religious settings, etc)

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:19 PM

In the days before "fuck" could be used in print, there were a few euphemisms that seemed to be invented especially for print. I seem to recall "fug," "frick," and "frig," although I can't remember which writers used which ones.

Some novels that I think used euphemisms like this were "Studs Lonigan," "The Death Ship" (by B. Traven, who also wrote "Treasure of the Sierra Madre"), and maybe even "Catch-22."

I recently saw the Coen Brothers' movie "Fargo" on TV and I found that they had dubbed over "fuckin'" with "frozen," as in, "I gotta get outa this frozen town." It's the only time I recall where the censored version was funnier than the original.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Maire
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:19 PM

From the Drumcree threads:

Subject: RE: Campsite at Drumcree IV From: GUEST,Derek Bell Date: 08-Feb-02 - 12:21 PM

Here I didn't say that atall so I didn't. Somebody's codin' round so they are...this is feckin' terrible so it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:27 PM

Murray, finding when feck in the sense used here first appeared will not be easy. A coined usage can be around for a long time before it hits print. If someone wishes to go through a ton of Irish novels and stories, good luck to them!

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:45 PM

So basically it's a "proper" word used as a substitute for an "improper" one because of a similarity in sound. I'll be gosh-darned!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Clifton53
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 07:51 PM

I worked a summer job when I was in high school, around 1968, with two gents from Ireland who used "feck" quite a bit, which I understood quite clearly when they would tell me to " do 'yer fecking job Danny boy".

They were decent chaps, but always looking for "birds". (BG).

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 08:11 PM

I thouhgt we covered this when we discussed the word Feckless before but still, I seem to remember one of my girlfriend's (At the time, 1972 or so) grandmother who was from Cobh using the word. Good luck other than that I have no imput, Kindest regards, neil

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 08:11 PM

Hey guest 5:38, I hear ya. I seem to recall a recent flame war over the word "bollocks" somewhere, where a Brit insisted there was no such word.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 08:25 PM

I seem to remember someone calling somebody a feckin' eejit in the movie "Waking Ned Devine".

Now what does "gormless" mean?

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 08:27 PM

Bollock is Middle English so it has a long and honorable history behind it; from Old English bealluc. Like the progenitor of feck, it deserves Hall of Fame treatment for long and meritorious service.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 10:44 PM

Aw, come on, Michael, it means without gorms! And gorms are, uh, well, those, I mean...you know.

In Robert Paul Smith's classic book, "Where Did You Go?" "Out." "What Did You Do?" "Nothing.", one boy asks another about the source of neat's-foot oil, which is used to condition baseball gloves. The answer: "It comes from the foot of a neat, you dope!" Which, in fact, was precisely correct, since "neat" is an old word for cow. And that's no bull.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Annie144
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:03 PM

"Gormless" is probably northern English. It's not particularly insulting. It means not very clever or not understanding things very quickly...a bit slow.

I noticed "pissed" getting used earlier on in the American sense of "to be annoyed". I find that one confusing. In the UK "pissed" means drunk while "pissed off" has the annoyed connotation.

Moral of the story....it can be quite difficult to know exactly when one is being insulted.

Literary uses of "feck"....Marian Keyes novels?

A.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 11:58 PM

Well Annie, we here in the Colonies are just lazy and we drop the "off" part..........of the word anyway. But be assured we do know that it's better to be pissed off than pissed on! And of course it's better to be pissed on then pissed through........because that'd make you a prick!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:13 AM

My American spell-checker accepts "bollix" but not "ballocks." Can anyone explain that? Where could "bollix" come from if not from "ballocks"?

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 05:52 AM

I've usually seen bollix used in an Irish context as a singular noun - "He's a right feckin' bollix". Bollocks are plural. Of course the original word was ballocks (=little balls).

WassaiL! V

btw. Spaw, it's not always laziness, sometimes you add bits. You drop the "off" from pissed, but where we beat someone up, you add an "on" and beat up on them.

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Annie144
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 08:00 AM

Spaw says "And of course it's better to be pissed on then pissed through........becasue that'd make you a prick".

Would you be calling me a prick there? I don't think so but as I said earlier it can be difficult to tell. Amusing anyway! I didn't know whether you were pissing around [horsing around] or pissing me about [playing around with me].

A.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 11:49 AM

WEll Annie, I am well known to take the piss out of folks.......Now hopefuly there what I said was that I'm a well known person to like to kid around and throw out playful insults in good humor. Anyway...Welcome to the 'Cat!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:55 PM

According to my (print) dictionary, bollix is a verb meaning bungle or botch up. There is no indication that it is the singular of bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Annie144
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:48 PM

Thanks for the good humoured welcome Spaw. Or should I call you "pussycat" or would that get me into more trouble? [Probably!]

Back to the slang. I'm fascinated with this as is probably obvious. This is living mutating language. Catch it if you can! As far as I know, and I'm sure someone can update me, "a bollix" is a person and it's an Irish semi-affectionate term. I went to a Finbar Furey show last week and I'm sure he mentioned it [and "feck"].

Perhaps we need a glossary.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM

Webster's Dictionary: Bollix vt [alter. ballocks, pl. of ballock (testis) fr. ME, fr OE bealluc - more at Ball] : to throw into disorder; also: Bungle - usu. used with up. Bollix also a noun.
Oxford English Dictionary: Ballock obsolete in polite use. ...beallucas in 1000AD, ballokes in 1382, etc. As I said, an ancient and honorable history of service in the English language.
Spellcheckers generally have inadequate content; useful only in writing at the pre-highschool level.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 04:07 AM

The feck o' the speil oan this threed 's a cairtfu' o' coo shairn----

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:01 AM

In Ireland, "feck" is sometimes used as a euphemism for "fuck", alright - but generally only where the latter is used as a generalised expletive e.g. not with a directly sexual sense. You NEVER feck someone!

But it is used much more widely and with a wider range of meaning. As to early sources, off the top of my head, isn't there a line in "The Night before Larry was stretched" that goes:

Then mind not such trifles a feck, sure why should the likes of them grieve you!" ?

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:05 AM

BTW, Boab - you're dead right!

Regards

p.s. Incidentally, Boab, talk to me about "cooshat" /"cushat" (sp??)

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Bradypus
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 06:39 PM

Feck is one of those words where the negative is better known than the positive - I wouldn't have thought any more about someone being feckless than I would about them being gormless or ruthless - but gorm and ruth (apart from the name) are as uncommon as feck ...

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 11:15 PM

feck·less adj. 1. Lacking purpose or vitality; feeble or ineffective. 2. Careless and irresponsible. --feck"less·ly adv. --feck"less·ness n.
--American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition (CD-ROM version)

It has no entry for "feck." I have a hunch there is not a very close connection between "feckless" and the current meaning of "feck," but I'll have to check the OED to know for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 11:28 PM

Martin---The "cushat" ---or in my ain airt--"cushie" is the Scots for "woodpigeon".[Not, as some might think, the past tense ot the action taken by a "coo" in the matter of bowel evacuation---].

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 12:33 AM

"Feck" in the context I was enquiring about has nothing to do with feckless, but Martin Ryan has answered the question to my satisfaction. The word in Ireland obviously has a lomg history.

I have two further questions. Would I be right in assuming that while an Irishman might say "fecking" and "What the feck", he would not tell someone to "feck off", but would resort instead to the better known Anglo-Saxon alternative? "Feck off" to my ears at any rate, sounds pretty lightweight as far as invective goes ....

Also, am I right in thinking that the use of "feck" is more common in Eire than in Ulster?

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 06:40 AM

Murray

Well, you can certainly tell someone to "feck off"! And you're right - it would be regarded as light invective - no offence intended or taken!

As to geographical distribution (and I'll make no comment on "Eire"!) , I suspect the RANGE of meaning used in Ulster is wider, whatever about the frequency. Not surprising, given the Scots element in some of its senses.

Boab
Yeah - I know the word from Burns, of course. What I'm curious about is the etymology, if known.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,micca at work
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 06:47 AM

Murray, I grew up in Limerick in the 1950s and feck, was, as you say a fairly lightweight invective, and used universally, as opposed to its more heavyweight cousin with the U (the Soldiers word as it was ominiously referred to, when one was being told off for its use!!!)by all as a mild expletive, so I can confidently state it was commonly in use in Limerick as early as 1954 or 55

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 08:58 AM

Feck off is quite common in everyday usage.

I suggest folks do a web search for Irish slang dictionaries (there are quite a number of them, some even quite good). You aren't going to find much in regular dictionaries like the OED, because it doesn't include that much Irish slang.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 11:09 AM

Feck has become an euphemism for fuck, in that it sounds similar and may not offend as much, but it is not at all uncommon for everyone in Ireland & England to say fuck. Feck has its own meanings, and they relate to the way it is used inc onversation. In Ulster feck as a noun means 'Ability' so, someone who is feckless is someone incapable of doing something, a common enough pejorative, as in 'useless'; from OE to take, it is used in much the same way the Canadians say 'take off', 'feck off' for, 'get out of here' both literally when you want someone to leave, or as an expression of disbelief, as 'get on out of here with that story you're telling me'. that is not to say 'fuck off' doesn't have the same two meanings in common usage, but that feck is not necessarily a milder form, or that 'fuck off' didn't come after 'feck off' in common speech, and it is not EVER used as 'feck you' 'or 'feck this'.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Hamshank
Date: 18 Feb 02 - 11:39 AM

I have tons of Irish pals, some from Dublin and that area of the Republic, and some from Ulster and the north. When any of the Dubliners say what sounds like "feck", they mean "fuck." Same as the way they pronounce "Jesus" as "Jayzus" or "idiot" as "eejit." In the north, "fuck" is pronounced something like "fook." Feck, fook, or fuck, "dey" all mean the same "ting."

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 08:36 AM

There's nothing new under the feckin' sun. As suspected, the word turns up in James Joyce. See below.

Feck Along with 'craic', possibly the most frequently used expression in the dictionary of informal Irish discourse, and like its goodtimer buddy, this pillar of Irish slang is highly flexible and covers a multitude.

Its most common usage would be as an exclamation denoting anger/disappointment/frustration, such as 'feck, the pub's shut', or 'feck, it's raining again'.

Quite often employed as an adjective - 'the feckin' telly is on the blink again', or 'where did I leave that feckin' umbrella', or 'where's that feckin' father of yours', 'feck' has often been compared to its ruder Anglo Saxon counterpart - the four letter f-word. The one resounding difference is that it doesn't bear any sexual connotations whatsoever.

A very popular usage is as an impolite request for someone to leave eg, 'feck off!'. It can also be used as a proper noun when describing a less than savoury individual eg, 'the ould fecker ran off with my wife' or 'I told that fecker not to touch the whiskey' or 'that fecker of a tractor won't start' or 'that fecker of a bullock has bolted again'. As with all derogatory expressions in Hiberno-English, 'fecker' is often with affectionate overtones. 'God love him/her, the poor fecker' is translated as 'that unfortunate individual, have pity on his/her predicament'.

Added to these popular uses of 'feck' are many little-known variations on it. In County Cork there is a popular game of cards called (surprisingly) 'Feck'. It is also used to describe an implement in the outlawed sport of Pitch and Toss.

In parts of Ulster, it is used to describe someone who lacks ability, eg, 'did you see the way he fenced that ditch, sure there's no feck in him'. This particular use of the term is obsolete in modern slang vernacular.

Of course, a word with such a colourful plethora of meanings also needs to be a verb. To feck something is to pilfer it. 'He fecked a banana' means the boy stole a banana. This is a relatively Dublin usage of the term and has been used by such literary luminaries as Ulysses progenitor, James Joyce. In 'A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man', 'but why did they run away, tell us?'...'Because they had fecked cash out of the cash register'. If truth be known, the full extent of 'feck' as the most flexible institution of Irish slang has not been explored here, and its prevalance in day-to-day vernacular remains sadly under-appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 08:57 AM

fec (prononced feck) in Older IRish was a spade, so if a spalpeen was fecless he would be without the necessary, unable to do his job, useless. In USA in the early 20th c. on laboring sites sometimes one would see the sign 'no Italian jobs', from the practice of early ITalian immigrants sharing a tool box, it became a requirement that each man have his own tools, so one needn't say 'Luigi has the spade' when asked to do a job, so 'No Feckless Need Apply'!

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Iodine
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 09:02 AM

The word FECK is very commonly used among the Irish (i know because i am Irish lol). It is used in the same context as friggin, frigging, farkin,freeking, and the universally used F word that i am not sure you are allowed to use here so i will hold my feckin tongue.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Roger O'Keeffe
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

Oops! This feckin' thing is on a hair-trigger.

As the previous contributor (whose name I was trying to check out when it went off in my hand, Sir) correctly points out, "fecking" used as an attenuation of the expletive "fucking" is not considered coarse. This is borne out by the fact that it would never be used as a substitute for the verb "fuck" in its substantive sense. My father (born Dublin 1904, just a few weeks before Bloomsday, though he wouldn't have had any time for that vulgar Joyce fella) used it in informal conversation, whereas he would NEVER use the other "four-letter word".

Apart from "to feck" as a substitute for "steal", the verb "to feck around" is also used in the sense of acting indecisively or fruitlessly (intriguingly, the corresponding French verb "pinailler" also has "coarse" origins, but seems to be acceptable in reasonably polite usage which evidently disregards its origins): e.g. "Stop fecking around and make up your mind"

There is also the slightly less common adjective "fecky" meaning either pernickety or irritatingly complicated, requiring the user to feck around with whatever is so described, e.g. an appliance with "all sorts of fecky little knobs on it", or someone at a meeting raising lots of fecky little procedural points.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Big John
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 01:55 PM

My personal theory on the origin of these expletives is based on the enforced teaching of the Irish Language in a failed effort to reintroduce Irish as the spoken language in Ireland. Three words stand out, FEIC, the Irish word for "see"; FOCAL, the Irish word for "word"; CAINT, the Irish word for "speak". We were constantly silenced by the sentence "Na habar FOCAL, na bi ag CAINT", meaning "Dont say a word, don't speak." Any explanation in answer to a question usually ended "An FEICEANN tu?", meaning "Do you see?" These phrases were always spoken in an aggressive manner with emphasis on the words FOCAL and CAINT and FEICEANN. (The word CAINT is pronounced COINT but when spoken with venom sounds like CUNT). I apologise for introducing that word into the thread but it is relevant. To call someone in Irelad a fucking cunt is a real insult but it is regularly used. Feck and fecking are regularly used by sedate older people who refrain ftom harsher language.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 03:32 PM

To say that Feck has no sexual connotations whatsoever is fooling yourself. Just because you can't say "my wife and I fecked last night" doesn't mean the word isn't just a substitute for "the four letter F-word." We can't say "I frigged my girlfriend last night" in American English, but the word "friggin'" still has sexual connotations!

My theory is that this usage of "feck" is just another pronunciation of the Germanic "fuck," "fucken", "fikken," etc., which in the various Germanic languages has different vowel sounds. the alternate pronunciation serves as a "less rude" alternative. This works with other words too. I've never heard anyone say "I have to go to the bathroom and shite," but "shite" is obviously just another word for "shit." As people have said before on this list "Jayzus" is another example of euphemism by vowel changes. You wouldn't say "Repent your sins and pray to Jayzus."

The fact that "fecker" is said with affection is also no guarantee that it doesn't at heart mean "fucker." How many of your Dublin pals would say "och, the poor whore" ("puir whoor") to refer to a friend who'd been screwed over?

My favorite Dublin euphemism, by the way, is "fuck" for "Jesus," since the former is merely rude while the latter is blasphemous. This results in beautiful locutions like "sweet, sufferin' mother of FUCK" which I have heard more than a few times.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Airto
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 09:20 AM

It's true, Nerd, that "feck" is often, even mostly, used as a softer sounding substitute for "fuck". But it's more than just an alternative pronunciation of the same word, as its other usages prove, and it's also true that it is not used in a sexual context. You're forgetting that sex only arrived in Ireland with TV.

By the way, while you'd never hear an Irish person say "I have to go to the bathroom and shite" (that's one euphemism we don't use), you will hear them say "I'm off to the jacks for a shite".

Speaking of whores, there are two main types in Ireland, cute hoors and poor hoors. A cute hoor is definitely not the same thing as the cute whores played by Shirley MacLaine in Irma La Douce or Jane Fonda in Klute. Cute hoors are mostly male, and get on with winning the poker game while others grab the limelight.

A poor hoor, on the other hand, is the sort of person things happen to, such as sliding out the back doors of the ambulance after surviving a clifftop fall.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 09:30 AM

I believe that would be sex of the indoor variety, which only arrived with the telly, wouldn't it? And with the indoor shite as well?

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:17 PM

When young Brendan Behan wrote "Borstal Boy" he used Fugg/Fugging to get the book through the then current censorship rules. Upon being introduced to him at a party, Dorothy Parker is reputed have said "Ah yes, you're that young Irishman who can't spell FUCK !"

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:19 PM

Gotta love 'er! She's my girl, that Dorothy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Nerd
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:10 AM

Thanks, Airto. I'd never heard "off to the jacks for a shite!"

But other usages of Feck don't prove that it's not an alternate form of the same word "fuck." It might mean that there's more than one word "feck." I suspect this is the case, i.e. the feck of feckless is a different word, just as "hip" is both the place where your leg joins your torso and "cool." This doesn't mean that "hip," when used as "cool," is not an alternate pronunciation of "hep," because it is. "Hip" for a body part is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:31 AM

The humour factor: Everyday English and slang in Ireland" or something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: SharonA
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 05:44 PM

So, is "feck" as an alternate form of "fuck" still an f-word (not to be spoken in polite company)? Is "feck off" considered more vulgar than "go away"?

If so, then this song could apply to both f-words: A CHAT WITH YOUR MOTHER (THE F-WORD SONG) by Lou and Peter Berryman

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM

I've been searching for examples of "feck" in the old songbooks I've "collected" in Google Books. Most are Scottish, only one is Irish; but that could be partly because I have about twice as many Scottish songbooks in "my library" as Irish.

---

ETRICK BANKS (excerpt)

On Etrick banks, in a summer's night
At glowming when the sheep drave hame,
I met my lassy braw and tight,
Came wading, barefoot, a' her lane:
My heart grew light, I ran, I flang
My arms about her lilly neck,
And kiss'd and clap'd her there fou lang;
My words they were na mony feck. [=very few]

--from Scotish [sic] Song by Joseph Ritson (London, 1714).

---

Feck, A part, quantity; as, Maist Feck, The greatest number; Nae Feck, Very few.
Feckfow, [=feckfull?] Able, active.
Feckless, Feeble, little and weak.

--from the glossary in The Gentle Shepherd by Allan Ramsay (Glasgow, 1758).

---

TRANENT-MUIR (excerpt) by Mr. Skirvin

The volunteers prick'd up their ears,
And vow gin they were crouse, man;
But when the bairns saw't turn to earn'st,
They were not worth a louse man;
Maist feck gade hame; O fy for shame! [=most of them]
They'd better stay'd awa', man,
Than wi' cockade to make parade,
And do nae good at a', man.

--from Scotish [sic] Song by Joseph Ritson (London, 1794).

---

YOUNG MAXWELL (excerpt)

Ae stride or twa took the silly auld carle,
And a guid lang stride took he
I trow, thou be a feck auld carle; [=able, spry]
Will ye shaw the way to me?

WHEN GLOAMIN O'ER THE WELKIN STEALS (excerpt)

Tho' braws she has na mony feck, [=not many]
Nae riches to command respec',
Her rosy lip and lily neck
Mair pleasure gie to me.
I see her beauties, prize them a',
Wi' heart as pure as new-blawn snaw;
I'd prize her cot before a ha',
Wi' Jenny's ae bawbee.

KELLYBURNBRAES (excerpt)
Burns

"I hae been a deevil the feck o' my life; [=most of]
(Hey, and the rue grows bonnie wi' thyme;)
But ne'er was in hell till I met wi' a wife;
(And the thyme it is withered, and rue is in prime.")

--from The Scottish Songs, Volume 2 by Robert Chambers (Edinburgh, 1829).

---

[untitled excerpt] by Jean Murray of the Muir

Now, Robin, lie ye whare ye're laid,
I'll contradict nae feck ye've said; [=very little]
But I could ne'er approve your plan,
To abuse sae wise and good a man.

--from The Contemporaries of Burns (Edinburgh, 1840)

---

MY GUDE AULD COTTON UMBERELL (excerpt)
Thomas Blyth

My gude auld cotton Umberell,
I've ken'd ye sin' I've ken'd mysel',
I got ye frae my douce auld mither,
Mony dragley days ye saw thegither;
An' sin' ye've fa'n intill my han'
Feck suns hae shone an' blashes fa'n. [=many]

--from One Hundred Modern Scottish Poets, Second Series (Brechin, 1881)

---

OUR AIN WIFE (excerpt)
Thomas Carstairs Latto

O there's nae wife like our ain wife in a' the Borristoun,
There's nae dame like our ain dame for mony miles aroun';
She is a wee bit bodie, an' I'm a muckle man,
But the feck o' a' the gear we hae my wee bit wifie wan. [=most of]

--from One Hundred Modern Scottish Poets, Fifth Series (Brechin, 1883)

---

THE NIGHT BEFORE LARRY WAS STRETCHED (excerpt)

A chalk on the back of your neck
Is all that Jack Ketch dares to give you;
Then mind not such trifles a feck, [=a bit]
For why should the likes of them grieve you?

--from Irish Minstrelsy by H. Halliday Sparling (ed) (London, 1888)

---

GI'E MY LOVE GEAR (excerpt)
W. Fergusson

At kirk an' fair the lads they stare,
And grudge me sair her courtesy;
They little reck that sic respeck
Has cost maist feck my towmond's fee! [=most of]

--from Whistle-Binkie: A Collection of Songs for the Social Circle, Volume 2 by John Donald Carrick, Alexander Rodger, David Robertson (Glasgow, 1890)

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 04:04 PM

"A golden oldie"
A. Scott in Sibbald, c.1550, Chron. Scot. Poetry
Wald ye foirsé the forme,
The fassoun, and the fek,
Ye said it fynd enorme,
With bawdry yow to blek.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM

Definitely not American, where Darn is the preferred expletive.

Suuuuuuuuuuuure it is, Dicho!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 06:22 PM

Dave, you reached back seven years to dredge that one up. Dicho kicked the bucket Lo! that many years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 26 Oct 09 - 08:47 PM

FCEK.....The Irish Connection!

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 03:34 AM

Mrs Doyle, " and what would you say to a nice cup of tea Father Jack ? "

Father Jack, " feck off cup "

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 04:56 AM

Recently found a 'Father Ted' video in a charity shop for 25p! Five blissful episodes at 5p each! Fecking marvellous!

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Oct 09 - 02:34 PM

My Irish pastor sees no moral problem with the use of the word "feck," a term he uses quite frequently and colorfully. I have to say that I wonder about him at times. On Sunday morning, I heard a loud "bang" on a window of the church. I looked out, and there was Fr. Mike in full vestments, kicking a soccer ball around. A fecking good man, he is...

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST,Saoirse
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 01:04 AM

Have heard it used in the expression "the auld feck me la" but unable to find a definition. this was used in the 1920s

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:01 AM

The "young man who can't spell fuck" story told above as having been said by Dorothy Parker to Brendan Behan on publication of Borstal Boy is also told as Talullah·Bankhead·to·Norman·Mailer re The Naked & the Dead -- see

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-krassner/remembering-norman-mailer_b_72034.html

Maybe they did both say it; or maybe it's just a folktale...

Or a fecktale...

How can we ever know? ---- feckit!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 03:19 PM

If you are not effective you are feckless.
You know, like most of us when we may be right but don't fight or defend our contention.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 06:37 PM

Saw a 'T' shirt for sale in a shop in Ireland with the following slogan:

"FCEK
Made in Ireland"

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 15 - 07:17 PM

Isn't feckless another word for virginity?

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Rog Peek
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 05:52 AM

GUEST 6-37 PM was me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 06:24 AM

Isn't "FCEK Made in Ireland" a witty reference to FCUK /

Clever that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 15 - 10:41 AM

Before Mudcat existed, I only thought I was educated!

Subject: RE: BS: The Etymology of 'Feck'
From: Stu
Date: 07 Dec 15 - 05:24 AM

The Drumcree threads. The halcyon days of the cat. Works of art.