Folksingers gone bad

Subject: Folksingers gone bad
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 09:21 PM

One of the voices that got me into Irish trad. music way back when was Mary Black's. Her early work with De Dannan and General Humbert was wonderful. Unfortunately she's gone WAY off track, putting out a bunch of pop crap over the years.

I suppose you can't blame performers for going after commercial success, but I do wish Mary would get back to her roots (there have been rumors for years that she was working on a trad album... anyone in the know?) - and I could say the same for Maura O'Connell and, to a lesser degree, Dolores Keane.

Any feedback?

Michael

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 09:52 PM

People have been having to decide whether to stick to traditional forms or make a living doing music, for a long time now...recall that Zimmerman kid?

Peter.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Kaleea
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 01:56 AM

If she is making a good living, and enjoying what she is doing, more power to her. one man's bad is another womans' good. I am usually a purist, hating electric guitars (except for Les Paul/hollow body), and hating non wood guitars, demanding traditional only in my Irish collection (sure, & I'm 1/2 Irish!), & I prefer live instead of memorex, but to each her own. It's a big world out there, and we are all different.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:07 AM

Old folksingers don't go bad...

They just sound that way....

;-)

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:54 AM

Bab Dickson made her living eventually "off" the folk scene, but she'll still belt out a request at a live concert.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:47 AM

"Going bad" wouldn't mean singing other types of song for people who aren't into folk music.

It'd mean sticking with folk music and cheapening it down by playing it without respect for the songs and the people.

Singers who broaden out into other types of music, either because that's where their tastes take them, or even just ("just") to make a living, can still retain their folk roots - and they can be a route by which people who think they don't like folk music can find their way into it, and discover they do.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST,Skipjack K8
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 02:27 PM

Whilst I don't agree with Michael's general point, I sneakingly agree about La Black. My fortieth birthday pressie from Mrs S was a ticket for the Celtic Flame tour of the UK. Musical giants like Donnal Lunny and Sharron Shannon were put out as warm-up acts! Then yer woman breezes on, and performs what Michael has described quite accurately above; gave us the benefits of her opinion of the Omagh bombing being 'a hiccup' in the peace process, and then gets the little people out again to beat out some jigs, whilst she does a parody of Julie Walters on the bodhran.

I thanked Mrs S, but had to admit Mary had disappeared up it.

Skipjack

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: michaelr
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 04:56 PM

Midchuck - the Zimmerman kid had the benefit of being a gifted songwriter, thereby having his very own muse to follow. This is not the case with a non-writing, interpretive artist such as Mary Black.

I don't mean this as a put-down; I just happen to think that M.B., in her early days, had a great way with traditional material such as "Will Ye Gang, Love", "Mo Ghile Mear", "Rose of Allendale", "Anachie Gordon" etc. And while songwriters like Jimmy MacCarthy and Noel Brazil have come up with the occasional gem for her, I find the bulk of her output decidedly mediocre.

Michael

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 05:01 PM

Presumably there is more demand generally for "crap" than for traditional songs. John

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: BlueFolk
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 11:01 AM

A folksinger that definitely gone bad (and mad) is Charles Manson. Remember, he started, rather unsuccesfully as singer in the mid sixties eastcoast scene. His music wasn't payed much attention to, until his famous visit to the Polanski party, after which record companies judged it a good idea to rerelease his album.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: The Pooka
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 12:03 PM

Guest Skipjack - a sad story, but SO well told. Lovely. (Hm wait a minute...is that the very Essence of Folk?)

But, are there no "bunchofpopcrap"singers gone *GOOD*?
(Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses? nowait)
"Broadening out" into *folk*? Maybe still retaining their crappoptop roots? After all there are bigtime televangelists who renounce the things of this world for vows of poverty, chastity, and rightsized congregations with preacharounds. Um aren't there?? ("What was the subject of the sermon, Mr. President?" Coolidge: "Sin." "And what did the pastor have to say?" "He was agin it.":) Consider the lilies of the field. And fair is the lilly of the valley. nowait

That Zimmerman punk has come a long way since he last shook hands with Woody Guthrie. Before knockknockknockin' on Heaven's door agin, and It (Gawdforbid) openin' up this time -- *can he come full circle*? His heart's in the highlands. But you & I know what a circle is worth.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST,Priscilla
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 12:50 PM

Ever notice how some folksingers can write their own music, and unless you read the liner notes, you would never realize the song isn't at least 150 years old? I'm thinking especially about people like Andy M. Stewart and Phil Cunningham (okay, so Phil writes tunes, not lyrics), formerly of Silly Wizard and now out there on their own. I'm not sure what it takes to do that, but not a lot of songwriters seem to have it.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Feb 02 - 08:32 PM

Priscilla - I agree, it's a rare talent to be able to write songs that sound like they could be traditional. I've tried my hand at it, but not with the level of success that masters like Andy M. Stewart or Richard Thompson have achieved. One of my favorites in this category is "Captain Jack and the Mermaid" by Meg Davis (recorded, uncredited, by De Dannan), a brilliant effort.

Does anyone know whether there is truth to the rumors that Mary Black will release an album of trad material?

Michael

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 09:16 AM

One problem I have with most (not all) modern singer/songwriters is that a lot of their songs are as if they're reading their sappy diaries to the public. With few exceptions, diaries are meaningful only to their authors (unless of course they contain some really titilating stuff - just kidding). The songs may be meaningful to the songwriter but very few songs can strike a universal emotional chord - for lack of a better expression. I think the traditional songs that survive have lasted so long because they have accomplished this one way or another. One evening this week I went to a local place where it was singer/songwriter open mike night. All the songs were basically similar - angst and relationship woes, etc. One girl started off with "When I wrote this song I was MAD!" and then started wailing something like "I'm mad....oh I'm so angry....". I just couldn't make myself care!

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 10:00 AM

Ah, the begrudgers are here. And we are to believe that no traditional folk musicians are capable of producing crap? That the majority of them aren't putting out mediocre pablum? Give me a break.

I saw Mary Black give a concert in Dublin two years ago that absolutely blew me away. At least she can sing, fer chrissake, which is more than you can say about so many of the finger in the ear "singers and interpreters" of folk songs.

And she hasn't "lost touch with her roots" BTW. She still appears occasionally with the Black Family, with other trad musicians, etc.

Load of bollix, this thread is.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Whippet
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 10:22 AM

I heard someone say that 'the more popular she (Mary Black) gets the blander her material becomes' which to a certain extent I agree although the album 'Shine' is full of gems the Paul Brady duet being one of them.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 10:39 AM

There also seems to be a belief that every single album put out by a professional musician should be their "Best of"--life just doesn't go that way for musicians, any more than it does for everyone else. I'm not saying I've loved everything she has done. I couldn't say that about any musician. But frankly, her live show was absolutely stunning, and it covered her best material from the trad stuff to the present day stuff.

People have said the same thing about Richard Thompson, about Paul Brady, about Delores Keane, about all kinds of musicians with roots firmly planted in both folk and pop music. Personally, I admire them more than the "strictly folk" because it takes an enormous amount of talent to do both really well, which I feel Mary Black does. As does Richard Thompson, Paul Brady, and Delores Keane. They are more than just one dimensional musicians, and I appreciate them for it.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:13 AM

Well put, Guest, and I agree unreservedly on the names you list, bar old mother Black, as per my terms of reference above. Different gigs, and different opinions.

Skipjack

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Trevor
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:15 AM

And how did Isla St Clair ever get to be the hostess on 'The Generation Game'?

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:16 AM

Hey Skipjack--another belief of mine is it is just fine for you to have a different opinion, especially with different gigs!

Well, you know the list could just as easily include Emmylou Harris, Dolly Parton, Ricky Skaggs, and the Everly Brothers, couldn't it? All musicians I love to pieces, in spite of their trashy Nashville pop roots! ;-)

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: mooman
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 11:18 AM

I'm probably committing a cardinal sin here...but I actually prefer Mary Black's newer stuff, e.g. Shine and her collaborations with Paul Brady and David Gray, than some of her earlier more traditional material (although I like the Black Family work). Her live concerts are outstanding as some above have mentioned.

I guess one man's meat... (although I'm vegetarian!)

mooman

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:05 PM

With popular artists "crossing-over" into genres that bring them new listeners but sometimes offend the old, I can only say that I've enjoyed the debunking of some of those myths, such as "trashy Nashville pop roots." What hubris, to pronounce another large body of work "trash." (I realize that "GUEST" was not calling Country music trash). I speak from the position of one who grew up with a "purist" who I think softened to some of those other forms in his later years. Heck, I even found a John Denver CD at his house when I cleared his estate. I know full well that he probably only bought it because one track has Placido Domingo singing a duet with him, but hey, he was making progress! (I think he never did like the Zimmerman kid, though I'm sure we battered his ears with lots of it as we were growing up!).

The point is, I think, that people grow and change. And whether it is to "just" make a living, or simply to explore more musical options, some very interesting things can happen when people branch out from those roots. Some may end up "suckers" (to stick with the botanical metaphor) and need to be pruned, but others can be very fruitful. There are some wonderful examples merged areas of music. And some duds. I loved the combo many years ago of Carol Burnett and Beverly Sills. But some of these mixed styles don't work. Like a holiday special when Diana Ross with her puny little amplified voice sang with Placido Domingo and Jose Carrera. There they were, a couple of feet from their microphones in a cathedral, and Ross was simply not able to get the studio dynamics with the mic against her mouth in that setting. But then I've heard others, Dione Warwick with Domingo, I think, who can belt it out with the best of them. Don't misunderstand--I grew up singing along with Diana Ross like most kids my age, but I recognize her limitations as a performer when I see her in there with the heavyweights with lots of training. She was out of her league in that matchup. Others surprise me, like John Denver and Julie Andrews. I think they made a special and I think it sounded wonderful.

And Emmylou Harris, was a sweet, powerful voice. She'll land on her feet whatever genre she chooses to dabble in.

My 2 cents. (How much is that in Euros?)

Maggie

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:10 PM

Ah, typos. What a sweet, powerful voice, I meant to say of Ms. Harris.

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 12:11 PM

Now remember Maggie, Dionne Warwick, like her niece Whitney, were trained gospel singers, and Diana was not. Therein lies the diff, IMO. Same with artists like Mary Black and Dolores Keane, who are trained traditional singers. But then again, there is no substitute for god given talent. I never was a Eurythmics fan, but then one time I heard Annie Lennox sing a capella without amplification. Man, that lady has some pipes! Whodda thunk it?

Subject: RE: Folksingers gone bad
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 02 - 01:30 PM

Yes, GUEST, you made my point my clearly than I did. Training makes a huge difference, especially in the ability to crossover to other forms of music. Ross wasn't trying to crossover, she was trying to comingle, and in my opinion, it didn't work.

On a humorous note, I was recently speaking to my young realtor and a young man giving us a bid on a new air conditioning system for a house I was considering buying. Turns out he is a graduate of the University of North Texas (Denton), where I go to graduate school. He asked if I was familiar with their music program. I'm in the philosophy department, but I have friends who studied music there. One is a producer for Burt Bacharach, and I told them a funny story of when Rob got lost in Dallas when he was driving Dione to a studio where they'd be working. He has no sense of direction and had to call his wife for directions, and she could hear Dione in the background laughing about the call. Anyway, these two young pups didn't know Burt OR Dione. Sheesh. I had to backtrack from Whitney to make the connection for them.

Maggie