Is Joan Baez a fraud?

Subject: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Johnnythebone
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:42 PM

I heard some grumblings of late about Joan Baez being a "sellout". What's the background on this?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:47 PM

To some people, "success" = "sellout".

The only "sellout" Joan Baez is guilty of is the seats on her recent tour.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:51 PM

Thank you, Murray! Just saw the woman in concert last night and she is nothing short of wonderful. What an amazing voice!

Annie

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:04 PM

Definitely a troll. Ignore.

Joan Baez may have her issues, like any of us, but on the whole she is one of the most considerate and honest people who has ever graced our planet.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:09 PM

Annie, was Richard Shindell playing with her that night? I know he has shared the billing on some of the tour dates.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: ddw
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:09 PM

I love Joan's voice, too, but years ago she did something that struck me as odd, to say the least.

I saw her twice in concert while here activist husband, David Whats-iz-face, was in jail. Both times she milked the hell out of her connection with someone so committed to the cause — to the point of it being intrusive on the music. But the minute he got out of jail she filed for divorce.

I always wondered if she was really that callous — to use him to further her career — or if he really turned out to be a jerk or what.....

david

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:12 PM

she always kind of struck me to be a bit pretensious.....

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:28 PM

Joan's ex-husband's name was and still is David Harris. I had met both of them in early 1968, after David had refused induction into the army but before he went to prison. For whatever else you say, David showed courage. He didn't hide behind a perpetual student deferment. He didn't fake mental illness, claim to be gay when he wasn't, or flee to Canada. He simly stood up and said "This war is wrong, and I'm not going to cooperate with it." Joan supported him all the way, and I believe she did so with all the best of intentions. But during their separation , during which time their son Gabriel was born, they grew apart. In the end, neither blamed the other, at least not in public. That's a lot more than can be said for most celebrity couples who get divorced.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:31 PM

Janice in NJ - I believe you are being unfair to our guest Johnny, who started this thread with what seems to me a legitimate inquiry. Perhaps the recent brouhaha on the Cat has made you a bit jumpy? Let's not abandon basic courtesy here, s'il vous plait.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:43 PM

Michael, we will soon find out. Why doesn't guest Jonny tell us exactly who has been "grumbling of late", as he alleges in his opening post ?

Nobody I know has. At least, not about Joan Baez ....

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:48 PM

Basic courtesy? Am I the one who used the word fraud? Or implied that Joan Baez was callous? Or that David Harris was a jerk? I'd rather let Joan's record speak for itself. It was she who walked beside young black children as they braved mobs to desegregate public schools in Mississippi. It is she who went to Hanoi during the Vietnam War and then, unlike Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, took the Communist leaders to task on their dismal human rights record. It is she who brought a message of nonviolence to such places as Palestinian refugee camps. Need I go on?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Rasta
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:52 PM

i never heard that a bunch of viet pow s got there head kicked in on acct of her/ she sings great/ she looks great and she maid the greenbriar boys famious more or less------viva joanie-----rastaaaa

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: ddw
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:01 PM

Jeez, Janice —— do you sleep with your AK-47?

The original poster asked a question which, in one way or another, I've heard asked many times before about all sorts of performers who do something that requires interpreting material from another time or place —— which any folk musician is likely to do.

As for my "implication" that JB was callous or David Harris was a jerk. That was not an "implication," it was a question. Is she that callous? Was he a jerk? I don't know and I'd bet quite a bit you don't either. Your defence seems predicated on the fact she made some political statements you agree with. Not, in my opinion, the best basis for getting on your high horse and flaming one and all.

david

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:01 PM

Janice...so everyone should agree with you? I saw nothing trolling in this thread....just some questions.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:19 PM

hoooh boy ....

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: JamesJim
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:18 AM

yes.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:21 AM

Hey Pansy....How ya' doin'? Nice weather for this time of year here......How's things in KS?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:32 AM

Oh oh the folk police have survived into the new millenium! None of us are perfect, including JB, but she introduced a lot of people to folk music. She is a woman of great integrity and, more importantly, one of the greatest actual singers of the lot. Voicewise, I can only think of Mary O'Hara as being comparable. Did she "sellout" too!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:08 AM

Hi Murray,

I think Guest Johnnythebone was referring to the following comment posted in another thread:

Subject: RE: Night They Drove Ol' Dixie..help From: GUEST,Jazzy Jeff Date: 19-Feb-02 - 01:16 AM

Joan Baez is a fraud.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:22 AM

If you read her autobiog "And A Voice To Sing With", she says that she fell very deeply in love with someone "in Los Angeles" who is never named, which seems to have happened during the time her husband was apart from her. (I'm writing from memory so details - which she never goes into anyway - are hazy.) I always got the impression that there was nothing cynical in either her union with, or her parting from, David Harris. As everyone knows, love isn't something we have power over. Best of all, read her book and let her tell it in her own words.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:34 AM

If she's a fraud, I'll take her brand of it any day. There are few people I can think of who have maintained their ideals and beliefs as consistently as Joan Baez. Her commitment to non-violence and helping those less fortunate has been life long with her-it didn't fade away with the 60's. Of course she's not perfect, who is? And don't forget the cost her committment has had on her own career. Not able to get a recording contract with a major label in the US. Virtually ignored by the press. Some of the people "Biograhy" chooses to spotlight are laughable, yet here's someone who actually did something with their life and she's passed over. She's still bringing new and up and coming folk artists to the public(remember Dylan?) I don't care what anyone else says, but I'll take my hat off to Joan Baez any day. James

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:39 AM

I checked the thread out, xo she's a "fraud" because she recorded a misheard lyric? If that is the criterion for fraudulence, then every folk singer alive is a fraud.

What a load of crap. But it is interesting to see that there is always somebody prepared to take a potshot at the true greats.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:00 AM

If changing with the times makes you a fraud, then we are all guilty. Stop knocking the woman I love.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:17 AM

Well, I don't think Joan Baez is a fraud and she is largely responsible for my love of folk (traditional) music. I loved her first albums and some of her later ones although I wish she'd stuck to her "traditional" roots for the most part. But that just reflects my personal preferences. Now when I go back and listen I love her pure voice but she sounds a little cold and emotionless and sometimes a bit shrill...just an observation. I think she wrote something in her autobiography - I'm writing from memory and mine is kind of hazy now, about David Harris belittling her and her music - calling it "airy fairy" - or maybe that was somebody else. Anyhow, I heard a quote from her (not directly) that she dismissed the old songs she used to do as "museum pieces" that were no longer relevant. That hurt, as those songs are very much alive and relevant to me and many others. SAY IT AIN'T SO, JOAN!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:25 AM

Is she a fraud? I don't know. But I do know people who were teachers in her son's school. They tell me she and/or her mother were at every PTA meeting possible. WITHOUT camera men or reporters.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Spartacus
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:50 AM

Joan Baez is not a fraud. Fraud...Does that mean she sings folk songs in front of her fans and then secretly goes home and listens to Def Leppard records?

I personally can't stand Joan's voice. I like a little scatch in my records, if you know what I mean. Joan always had a little to much vibrato for my tastes. Too much Kingston Trio and not enough Bessie Smith. This is, however, my humble opinion, and by no means constitutes fraud...

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Roger O'K
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:01 AM

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:05 AM

Joan's mother was, I understand, Irish, so she qualifies for her national birthright of begrudgery - i.e. if you're successful enough, some of your own are bound to knock you.

But I loved her own put-down of Dylan years after he allegedly "sold out": "the only cause Dylan believes in is Dylan!"

Thread creep alert?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:23 AM

If your offering me diamonds and rust, I've already paid.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:41 AM

JBs mother was, still is?, Scottish, born in Edinburgh, according to Joan last time I saw her on stage about two years ago in Glasgow, Scotland. Responding to a unexpected request from a member of the audience Joan sang that long and intricate ballad "The Four Mary's" word perfect, "as I rode into Glasgow town the city for to see". That's a fraud? Mrs Baez was in the audience!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:47 AM

Ho! Ho! Let's ask some more dumb questions...

Is Idi Amin a humanitarian?

Is Dubya a Rhodes scholar?

Is Stepen Hawking a mental midget?

Is Woody Allen a handsome devil?

Gimme a break...

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Bennet Zurofsky
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:56 PM

It appears that Al Capp's defamations live on long after his own death. As I recollect it, he was the one to first label Joan Baez a fraud through the addition of a "Joannie Phoannie" to the Li'l Abner crowd in Dogpatch.

It was just a matter of reactionary politics and that is all it is now. Anyone who lived through the shit Bob Dylan put her through has suffered more than enough to earn a dispensation from all further crap.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:11 PM

Ah Little Hawk - the true question is - Is Star trek real??

Spaw - We are in Kansas, the sun is shining, and my little red shoes are sparkling.

Steve

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:20 PM

Tap your heels together Steve!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM

JamesJim! Good to see ya back. How're things?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:59 PM

Joan is one of the remnant of that school of female singers who exceeded in clarity of tone, emotive quality, and pure power rather than the variety of vocal calisthenics and breathy posturings that pass for the state of the art these days. She and Judy Collins were and are great.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:42 PM

Joan Baez is largely responsible for my love of folk music, as well. I "discovered" her music when I was 17 and have loved it ever since. She was absolutely wonderful when I saw her in concert Wednesday night.

Yes, Murray, Richard Shindell both opened for her and backed her up, and he is marvelous!

I love what Joan is doing for "young" talent these days. She may well be one of the reasons folk music is handed down to the next generation. (Yes, there were a *few* young people in the crowd Wednesday night so there's hope!)

Annie

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 05:52 PM

How about everything gets summed up with "Do YOU think she's a fraud?" Because it's all a matter of opinion unless she's doing pyramid marketing scams, forging money/artwork/patent registrations, running Enron, or any number of other fraud based activities.

I don't like her. I respect what she's done though, and respect what she's brought to folk music.

Enough said.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM

Rasta, I think you're confusing Joan Baez with Jane Fonda. The story I heard was that Jane Fonda betrayed some POW's trying to get a message home via her and were then beaten by their captors. I don't know if it's true, but I beleive the story was told later by one of the POW's. I think Joan Baez is too much of a humanitarian to have done something like that,all politics aside. I was stunned that Jane Fonda would.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM

What SeanM said.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:45 PM

Ooh ooh, there seems to be a consensus that JB is some sort of sacred cow, not to be criticized! Personally, I think she's always used WAY too much vibrato, which runs counter to what I call folk singing. (That doesn't make her a fraud, just operatic.) I'd rather hear Sandy Denny.

Michael

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Suffet
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:46 PM

Jaze,

I believe Rasta's point is well taken, and he/she is not confusing Joan Baez with Jane Fonda. Both made trips to North Vietnam during the Vietnam War, but no one has ever accused Joan Baez of betraying American POWs. (Those accusations against Jane Fonda may in fact be false, but nevertheless one hears them.) Furthermore, as Janice pointed out, when Joan Baez went of North Vietnam, she critized its leaders for human rights violations. If I recall correctly, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden (Fonda's husband at the time), and the American left in general gave Ms. Baez a really hard time after that.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:04 PM

Yes, Joan always was even-handed in her comments, not sparing hypocrisy regardless of which side of the political divide it was on. This earned her many enemies among both "liberals" and "conservatives" (2 labels which are frequently misleading), and among straights and radicals.

Her very amusing comment about marijuana was "It's stupid to make marijuana illegal. Of course, it's stupid to smoke it too."

Brilliant summation of the cannabis issue! The world in general can't stand people as honest and forthright as Joan Baez.

As for the vibrato, when Joan was young she had NO vibrato, and was so perturbed about it that she tried all kinds of techniques in order to develop some. Eventually she succeeded, much to the chagrin of those who dislike vibrato! Ironical, isn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:37 PM

I love her voice. Her vibrato never seemed flowery or overdone to me. It sounds full of emotion but not full of theatrics. Sometimes vibrato can still have a folk sound or convey raw emotionalism, such as in the singing of Ewan MacColl. It takes a brilliant folksinger to pull it off and with those few exceptions I generally don't go for it.

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:53 PM

I too am with Sean M on this one. I truly can't listen to her, her voice grates on me, but she is a woman of conviction and I respect her.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:56 PM

One thing I've notice regarding JB. People either love her or hate her . Not much in the middle ground. But is it her voice or her politics? She was certainly brash in her younger years. Had to have been hard to suddenly be "Queen" at 18. I've always thought most of America hated her politics. Here, it seems, people dislike her singing style. What about her do you think garners the most reaction, her voice or her politics?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:02 PM

remember the pledge?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:26 AM

I love her too.

Though I was actually weaned on PP&M, who I understand will be performing at the Puyallup Fair this September. How about them? Are they frauds?

Liland

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: van lingle
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 04:40 AM

janice in nj thanks for sharing your experience here. i grew up loving the guitar and singing of the young joan as my dad bought all her early vanguard recordings. than later on i guess my tastes changed and i started to loath the quality of her voice which, imo, had become kind of strident and annoying. well afew years back, after having not heard her for decades i saw her on austin city limits with a very good acoustic band featuring a dreadlocked guitarist playing some very hot stuff fingerstyle and was once again knocked out by joan's singing and very loose and vivacious performing style. i think she had settled into a voal range that better suited her. i don't really concern myself much with people's personal lives that i don't know but i believe joan has remained a committed liberal and david harris became some kind of right wing guru. regards,dave

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:55 AM

Dave, do you realize how much extra effort it takes to read posts which are typed in lower case with no indentation ?

Murray