Is Joan Baez a fraud?

Subject: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Johnnythebone
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:42 PM

I heard some grumblings of late about Joan Baez being a "sellout". What's the background on this?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:47 PM

To some people, "success" = "sellout".

The only "sellout" Joan Baez is guilty of is the seats on her recent tour.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 09:51 PM

Thank you, Murray! Just saw the woman in concert last night and she is nothing short of wonderful. What an amazing voice!

Annie

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:04 PM

Definitely a troll. Ignore.

Joan Baez may have her issues, like any of us, but on the whole she is one of the most considerate and honest people who has ever graced our planet.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:09 PM

Annie, was Richard Shindell playing with her that night? I know he has shared the billing on some of the tour dates.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: ddw
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:09 PM

I love Joan's voice, too, but years ago she did something that struck me as odd, to say the least.

I saw her twice in concert while here activist husband, David Whats-iz-face, was in jail. Both times she milked the hell out of her connection with someone so committed to the cause — to the point of it being intrusive on the music. But the minute he got out of jail she filed for divorce.

I always wondered if she was really that callous — to use him to further her career — or if he really turned out to be a jerk or what.....

david

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:12 PM

she always kind of struck me to be a bit pretensious.....

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:28 PM

Joan's ex-husband's name was and still is David Harris. I had met both of them in early 1968, after David had refused induction into the army but before he went to prison. For whatever else you say, David showed courage. He didn't hide behind a perpetual student deferment. He didn't fake mental illness, claim to be gay when he wasn't, or flee to Canada. He simly stood up and said "This war is wrong, and I'm not going to cooperate with it." Joan supported him all the way, and I believe she did so with all the best of intentions. But during their separation , during which time their son Gabriel was born, they grew apart. In the end, neither blamed the other, at least not in public. That's a lot more than can be said for most celebrity couples who get divorced.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:31 PM

Janice in NJ - I believe you are being unfair to our guest Johnny, who started this thread with what seems to me a legitimate inquiry. Perhaps the recent brouhaha on the Cat has made you a bit jumpy? Let's not abandon basic courtesy here, s'il vous plait.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:43 PM

Michael, we will soon find out. Why doesn't guest Jonny tell us exactly who has been "grumbling of late", as he alleges in his opening post ?

Nobody I know has. At least, not about Joan Baez ....

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:48 PM

Basic courtesy? Am I the one who used the word fraud? Or implied that Joan Baez was callous? Or that David Harris was a jerk? I'd rather let Joan's record speak for itself. It was she who walked beside young black children as they braved mobs to desegregate public schools in Mississippi. It is she who went to Hanoi during the Vietnam War and then, unlike Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, took the Communist leaders to task on their dismal human rights record. It is she who brought a message of nonviolence to such places as Palestinian refugee camps. Need I go on?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Rasta
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 10:52 PM

i never heard that a bunch of viet pow s got there head kicked in on acct of her/ she sings great/ she looks great and she maid the greenbriar boys famious more or less------viva joanie-----rastaaaa

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: ddw
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:01 PM

Jeez, Janice —— do you sleep with your AK-47?

The original poster asked a question which, in one way or another, I've heard asked many times before about all sorts of performers who do something that requires interpreting material from another time or place —— which any folk musician is likely to do.

As for my "implication" that JB was callous or David Harris was a jerk. That was not an "implication," it was a question. Is she that callous? Was he a jerk? I don't know and I'd bet quite a bit you don't either. Your defence seems predicated on the fact she made some political statements you agree with. Not, in my opinion, the best basis for getting on your high horse and flaming one and all.

david

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:01 PM

Janice...so everyone should agree with you? I saw nothing trolling in this thread....just some questions.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 11:19 PM

hoooh boy ....

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: JamesJim
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:18 AM

yes.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 12:21 AM

Hey Pansy....How ya' doin'? Nice weather for this time of year here......How's things in KS?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:32 AM

Oh oh the folk police have survived into the new millenium! None of us are perfect, including JB, but she introduced a lot of people to folk music. She is a woman of great integrity and, more importantly, one of the greatest actual singers of the lot. Voicewise, I can only think of Mary O'Hara as being comparable. Did she "sellout" too!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:08 AM

Hi Murray,

I think Guest Johnnythebone was referring to the following comment posted in another thread:

Subject: RE: Night They Drove Ol' Dixie..help From: GUEST,Jazzy Jeff Date: 19-Feb-02 - 01:16 AM

Joan Baez is a fraud.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:22 AM

If you read her autobiog "And A Voice To Sing With", she says that she fell very deeply in love with someone "in Los Angeles" who is never named, which seems to have happened during the time her husband was apart from her. (I'm writing from memory so details - which she never goes into anyway - are hazy.) I always got the impression that there was nothing cynical in either her union with, or her parting from, David Harris. As everyone knows, love isn't something we have power over. Best of all, read her book and let her tell it in her own words.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 06:34 AM

If she's a fraud, I'll take her brand of it any day. There are few people I can think of who have maintained their ideals and beliefs as consistently as Joan Baez. Her commitment to non-violence and helping those less fortunate has been life long with her-it didn't fade away with the 60's. Of course she's not perfect, who is? And don't forget the cost her committment has had on her own career. Not able to get a recording contract with a major label in the US. Virtually ignored by the press. Some of the people "Biograhy" chooses to spotlight are laughable, yet here's someone who actually did something with their life and she's passed over. She's still bringing new and up and coming folk artists to the public(remember Dylan?) I don't care what anyone else says, but I'll take my hat off to Joan Baez any day. James

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 07:39 AM

I checked the thread out, xo she's a "fraud" because she recorded a misheard lyric? If that is the criterion for fraudulence, then every folk singer alive is a fraud.

What a load of crap. But it is interesting to see that there is always somebody prepared to take a potshot at the true greats.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:00 AM

If changing with the times makes you a fraud, then we are all guilty. Stop knocking the woman I love.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:17 AM

Well, I don't think Joan Baez is a fraud and she is largely responsible for my love of folk (traditional) music. I loved her first albums and some of her later ones although I wish she'd stuck to her "traditional" roots for the most part. But that just reflects my personal preferences. Now when I go back and listen I love her pure voice but she sounds a little cold and emotionless and sometimes a bit shrill...just an observation. I think she wrote something in her autobiography - I'm writing from memory and mine is kind of hazy now, about David Harris belittling her and her music - calling it "airy fairy" - or maybe that was somebody else. Anyhow, I heard a quote from her (not directly) that she dismissed the old songs she used to do as "museum pieces" that were no longer relevant. That hurt, as those songs are very much alive and relevant to me and many others. SAY IT AIN'T SO, JOAN!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:25 AM

Is she a fraud? I don't know. But I do know people who were teachers in her son's school. They tell me she and/or her mother were at every PTA meeting possible. WITHOUT camera men or reporters.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Spartacus
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:50 AM

Joan Baez is not a fraud. Fraud...Does that mean she sings folk songs in front of her fans and then secretly goes home and listens to Def Leppard records?

I personally can't stand Joan's voice. I like a little scatch in my records, if you know what I mean. Joan always had a little to much vibrato for my tastes. Too much Kingston Trio and not enough Bessie Smith. This is, however, my humble opinion, and by no means constitutes fraud...

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Roger O'K
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:01 AM

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:05 AM

Joan's mother was, I understand, Irish, so she qualifies for her national birthright of begrudgery - i.e. if you're successful enough, some of your own are bound to knock you.

But I loved her own put-down of Dylan years after he allegedly "sold out": "the only cause Dylan believes in is Dylan!"

Thread creep alert?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:23 AM

If your offering me diamonds and rust, I've already paid.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:41 AM

JBs mother was, still is?, Scottish, born in Edinburgh, according to Joan last time I saw her on stage about two years ago in Glasgow, Scotland. Responding to a unexpected request from a member of the audience Joan sang that long and intricate ballad "The Four Mary's" word perfect, "as I rode into Glasgow town the city for to see". That's a fraud? Mrs Baez was in the audience!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:47 AM

Ho! Ho! Let's ask some more dumb questions...

Is Idi Amin a humanitarian?

Is Dubya a Rhodes scholar?

Is Stepen Hawking a mental midget?

Is Woody Allen a handsome devil?

Gimme a break...

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Bennet Zurofsky
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 01:56 PM

It appears that Al Capp's defamations live on long after his own death. As I recollect it, he was the one to first label Joan Baez a fraud through the addition of a "Joannie Phoannie" to the Li'l Abner crowd in Dogpatch.

It was just a matter of reactionary politics and that is all it is now. Anyone who lived through the shit Bob Dylan put her through has suffered more than enough to earn a dispensation from all further crap.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 02:11 PM

Ah Little Hawk - the true question is - Is Star trek real??

Spaw - We are in Kansas, the sun is shining, and my little red shoes are sparkling.

Steve

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:20 PM

Tap your heels together Steve!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM

JamesJim! Good to see ya back. How're things?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 03:59 PM

Joan is one of the remnant of that school of female singers who exceeded in clarity of tone, emotive quality, and pure power rather than the variety of vocal calisthenics and breathy posturings that pass for the state of the art these days. She and Judy Collins were and are great.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 04:42 PM

Joan Baez is largely responsible for my love of folk music, as well. I "discovered" her music when I was 17 and have loved it ever since. She was absolutely wonderful when I saw her in concert Wednesday night.

Yes, Murray, Richard Shindell both opened for her and backed her up, and he is marvelous!

I love what Joan is doing for "young" talent these days. She may well be one of the reasons folk music is handed down to the next generation. (Yes, there were a *few* young people in the crowd Wednesday night so there's hope!)

Annie

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: SeanM
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 05:52 PM

How about everything gets summed up with "Do YOU think she's a fraud?" Because it's all a matter of opinion unless she's doing pyramid marketing scams, forging money/artwork/patent registrations, running Enron, or any number of other fraud based activities.

I don't like her. I respect what she's done though, and respect what she's brought to folk music.

Enough said.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM

Rasta, I think you're confusing Joan Baez with Jane Fonda. The story I heard was that Jane Fonda betrayed some POW's trying to get a message home via her and were then beaten by their captors. I don't know if it's true, but I beleive the story was told later by one of the POW's. I think Joan Baez is too much of a humanitarian to have done something like that,all politics aside. I was stunned that Jane Fonda would.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM

What SeanM said.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 08:45 PM

Ooh ooh, there seems to be a consensus that JB is some sort of sacred cow, not to be criticized! Personally, I think she's always used WAY too much vibrato, which runs counter to what I call folk singing. (That doesn't make her a fraud, just operatic.) I'd rather hear Sandy Denny.

Michael

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Suffet
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 09:46 PM

Jaze,

I believe Rasta's point is well taken, and he/she is not confusing Joan Baez with Jane Fonda. Both made trips to North Vietnam during the Vietnam War, but no one has ever accused Joan Baez of betraying American POWs. (Those accusations against Jane Fonda may in fact be false, but nevertheless one hears them.) Furthermore, as Janice pointed out, when Joan Baez went of North Vietnam, she critized its leaders for human rights violations. If I recall correctly, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden (Fonda's husband at the time), and the American left in general gave Ms. Baez a really hard time after that.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:04 PM

Yes, Joan always was even-handed in her comments, not sparing hypocrisy regardless of which side of the political divide it was on. This earned her many enemies among both "liberals" and "conservatives" (2 labels which are frequently misleading), and among straights and radicals.

Her very amusing comment about marijuana was "It's stupid to make marijuana illegal. Of course, it's stupid to smoke it too."

Brilliant summation of the cannabis issue! The world in general can't stand people as honest and forthright as Joan Baez.

As for the vibrato, when Joan was young she had NO vibrato, and was so perturbed about it that she tried all kinds of techniques in order to develop some. Eventually she succeeded, much to the chagrin of those who dislike vibrato! Ironical, isn't it?

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:37 PM

I love her voice. Her vibrato never seemed flowery or overdone to me. It sounds full of emotion but not full of theatrics. Sometimes vibrato can still have a folk sound or convey raw emotionalism, such as in the singing of Ewan MacColl. It takes a brilliant folksinger to pull it off and with those few exceptions I generally don't go for it.

chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:53 PM

I too am with Sean M on this one. I truly can't listen to her, her voice grates on me, but she is a woman of conviction and I respect her.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 10:56 PM

One thing I've notice regarding JB. People either love her or hate her . Not much in the middle ground. But is it her voice or her politics? She was certainly brash in her younger years. Had to have been hard to suddenly be "Queen" at 18. I've always thought most of America hated her politics. Here, it seems, people dislike her singing style. What about her do you think garners the most reaction, her voice or her politics?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 22 Feb 02 - 11:02 PM

remember the pledge?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 03:26 AM

I love her too.

Though I was actually weaned on PP&M, who I understand will be performing at the Puyallup Fair this September. How about them? Are they frauds?

Liland

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: van lingle
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 04:40 AM

janice in nj thanks for sharing your experience here. i grew up loving the guitar and singing of the young joan as my dad bought all her early vanguard recordings. than later on i guess my tastes changed and i started to loath the quality of her voice which, imo, had become kind of strident and annoying. well afew years back, after having not heard her for decades i saw her on austin city limits with a very good acoustic band featuring a dreadlocked guitarist playing some very hot stuff fingerstyle and was once again knocked out by joan's singing and very loose and vivacious performing style. i think she had settled into a voal range that better suited her. i don't really concern myself much with people's personal lives that i don't know but i believe joan has remained a committed liberal and david harris became some kind of right wing guru. regards,dave

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:55 AM

Dave, do you realize how much extra effort it takes to read posts which are typed in lower case with no indentation ?

Murray

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: van lingle
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:16 PM

yes murray i do. i've recently had rotator cuff surgery and am typing with just my left hand for the time being but thanks for the input and i guess i'll try to be a bit more concise. regards, dave

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 12:42 PM

Thats OK Dave, its worth the effort to read it. BTW, notice that after starting this thread, Guest, Johnnythe bone apparently hasn't been back to comment on it.

Just a comment from here.

Don

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,ADG
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 02:11 PM

Some of you really do need to get a life.

ADG

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 04:16 PM

Who referred to Noel Paul Stookey as, "Born again Sesame Street"?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 05:35 PM

Well, what do YOU think about Joan, Arlo? After all, you probably know her better than any of us do.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 07:02 PM

Well, it's certainly more than kind of you to offer us one, ADG...

What a swell guy you must be to be so generous.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 09:01 PM

I guess you could say that like some who have already given credit here to "Joanie" for instilling an early passion for "Folk" music, she did that for me as well, back around '62 or '63. I think I wore out a couple of her albums and went hoarse singing some of those old songs back then.

Although she was a full-grown woman when I was still a teenager, I yearned to meet a woman like her someday, and my Wife's slight resemblance, guitar playing and singing voice may well have been a factor in the relationship that is now at 30 years and holding.

Then something happened with my beloved "Joanie"; there was that nasty affair going on in Asia, young people all over - with the exception of most of us rustic back-hill-folk - were getting all silly and dressing funny, the Russians were supposed to nuke us into oblivion at any time, and Joanie suddenly stopped singing the old songs. It seemed that all she would utter had to involve some sort of vitriolic protestation, or she had nothing to sing or talk about at all. I suppose that there was plenty of stuff to legitimately protest, and worthy causes to champion.... but would it have hurt all that much to sing "Amazing Grace" just once in the midst of all that? Actually I did hear her on the Public Radio about 25 years later singing it, and it surprised me that she still had it in her.

We havn't heard much from our Folkie Sweetheart of the '60's over the intervening years, but from what there has been it's been apparant that she's still very much "got it", musically speaking.
Then she appeared for a concert in Portland, and I thought some of going, just so I could see her one time in my life, and hear the voice I once loved so passionately up close and personal. Then I read the article, which had a lot more to do with her political and social "causes" than it did with her mucic, which seemed to be somewhat incidental; a vehicle with which to promote her ideology. It told of her angst for the poor, unfortunate Taliban freedom fighters currently incarcerated in the U.S. Military base in Cuba, their civil and human "rights" being terribly impinged upon by those imperialistic capitalist pig Americans... gee, I wondered; where was Joanie's outrage at ruby Ridge, Waco, or over the gunpoint kidnapping, brainwashing, and expulsion of little Illian Gonzalez? Oh, wait...

If I'm going to sit through a couple of hours worth of ranting and diatribe orchestrated to tear down and heap contempt upon the United States of America, I figure that we don't need to buy a $35 ticket for it. Shucks, anyone who enjoys that form of entertainment can come here to the Mudcat and peruse the "POL" threads for that amount of time for free.

Farewell, "Joanie"; It's been nice tae ken ye. I hope ye don't mind if I still sing, ever so softly when no one's listening, some of your old songs... from back when ye sang them just for the joy, and the love of it.
Remember?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 09:30 PM

UJ, I'd be glad to have a long talk with you someday. I'm a recovered conservative you know!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:16 PM

First people go dissing Joan, and now they go dissing Arlo. Who's next? Pete perhaps? Wish I was sleeping with an AK-47!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:18 PM

Janice, if you think that was Arlo, think again. One of our cute trolls that posts as a lot of different people....(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:36 PM

Friend Kendall;
We never have slept with an AK-47, although I do recall a couple of nights in the Republic of Korea just after the USS Pueblo was siezed by the Kong-San spending a few intimate nights with my M-14. That could be a little cold and lumpy if you rolled over onto it - I'll take a nice warm soft woman any night! };>{)~

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 10:40 PM

Uncle Jacque, from the reveiws I've read of Joan's current tour, it's more about music and intoducing new folk talent than about the taliban. Jesus, put your claws back in there, dude

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 23 Feb 02 - 11:45 PM

Uncle Jaque, just saw Joan Baez in concert Wednesday night, and I can attest, it is definitely more about music and introducing new folk talent - never even mentioned the word Taliban! The only thing she said that was remotely "political" was when she dedicated "Christmas in Washington" to the families who lost loved ones in the 9/11 tragedy, and are now over in Afghanistan trying to help families who have lost loved ones in the fighting over there. She also made a remark about herself and her former disdain for the "old songs" and how at one time everything she sang had to have political merit, but now she sings songs just for the love of them.

You really ought to treat yourself and go see her! I think you'd enjoy it very much.

Annie

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:38 AM

UJ, I too would prefer to sleep with a warm cuddly woman; but, you cant fight off an enemy with one!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 08:57 AM

Depends on the woman, hee hee hee -

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 10:21 AM

If you ever were a Joan Baez fan, Jaque, her show is a great experience--sadly enough, the press are completely unable to discuss music, so they focus on extraneous matters--more's the pity that it kept you from doing something that you would have found worthwhile-

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,The Press
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 11:28 AM

sadly enough, the press are completely unable to discuss music, so they focus on extraneous matters

You think it's the press. Look at Mudcat and threads like this.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 12:33 PM

Ah, but the press have no trouble whatsoever discussing completely meaningless music like that of Britney spears, or fascinating subjects like Mariah Carey's latest emotional problems, do they?

The press is a thinly disguised mechanism for marketing a high-consumption lifestyle, and maintaining the status quo.

Uncle Jacques - Every politically motivated American, including Joan Baez, thinks of him/herself as a patriot who is defending what is good and right in America. If this leads some of them to disagree with an American government's foreign policy, does that make them "anti-American"? No. It just makes them anti-administration. If it causes them to consider the human rights of other people on a par with those of American citizens, well, that does not constitute anti-Americanism either. It might constitute anti-militarism...or it might not. Depends on the circumstances.

During the US Civil War there was a huge antiwar movement in the North, opposed to continuation of the war. Why? They were opposed to the draft, and they were upset over the oceans of blood that were being spilled, by incompetent commanders, in a war that appeared likely to drag on indefinitely.

They were opposed to the incredible corruption in the northern draft system...the sons of the rich were enabled to purchase draft deferments, or to buy the services of recently arrived (and wretchedly naive) poor European immigrants to serve in their place, and a host of other sneaky tricks to avoid exposing themselves to the risks of battle. Yet these same pampered fellows were the ones yelling loudest for others to go and bleed in their place.

There were draft riots in New York City which terrorized the city for 3 days, and resulted in the deaths of 400 people! The rioters

burned homes, public buildings, churches, police stations, stores, factories, saloons, even an orphanage, murdering Negroes, and battling police and soldiers hand to hand in the streets or from behind barricades, driving draft officials from their offices and wrecking draft apparatus, the rioters exploded in a fury of resentment against "a rich man's war and a poor man's fight". (this excerpt from the book "The Wars of America - Volume I - Quebec to Appomatox" by Robert Leckie.

Now, you haven't seen anything in the 60's to equal this degree of protest, have you? 400 dead in the streets of New York. And the fact is...those rioters fully believed they were defending the values most dear to America...freedom, equality, and the pursuit of happiness. And, of course, so did the soldiers who fought them. Patriots one and all!

All this has been conveniently forgotten by a nation that prefers to remember Appomatox or the Gettysburg address.

So who is the patriot? The one who wants to "win in Vietnam"...or the one who wants to "bring our boys home"?

It's strictly a matter of opinion, and we all know that everybody's got one... In their own minds, they are all patriots. Joan is not anti-American, she's anti-administration...when she disagrees with their policy.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,johnnythebone
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 01:08 PM

Thanks for the input. Somebody mentioned above that I started the thread, but hadn't responded. I watched the opinions trickle in regarding Joan first. Somebody had referred to Joan as "a fraud" in the "Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" discussion, and I was just wondering if there was a specific incident recently that spawned that. Apparently there wasn't, but it was more interesting to see how people reacted. I managed to get flamed for a simple inquiry! I learned more than I bargained for!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 01:14 PM

Discussion threads like this have remarkably little impact. compared to a daily newspaper in a major market--

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 01:18 PM

One interesting thing I've noticed about patriotism and Americanism, if people truly excercise their Constitutional rights as Americans and speak out, they're often labeled As communists. Yet isn't that what makes us truly American-the right to excercise freedom of speech? If you were to speak out against Bush's current policies, many would think you unpatriotic. Ironic isn't it?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 02:12 PM

Not to put to fine a point on it, Jaze, but people occasionally state their views and are labeled fascists, racists, religious demagogues, and other things, with as little justification--

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 02:31 PM

Following on Little Hawk's post above:--

"My country right or wrong. My country if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." From a speech by Carl Schurz in the U.S. Senate.

February 29, 1872. Unfortunately, all you usually hear these days is the first part of that quote.

And hobbitwoman:--She also made a remark about herself and her former disdain for the "old songs" and how at one time everything she sang had to have political merit, but now she sings songs just for the love of them. I'm glad to hear it. There was a time when I thought that Joan got a bit too preachy, but she's always been all right with me. I like her early records the best.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 12:26 PM

Yeah, Joan's early records were great...the clear-eyed innocence of youth and phenomenal talent. I thought "Farewell Angelina" was the best of them all, and I loved the live one at Carnegie Hall...great rendition of Matty Groves!

Has anyone heard "Very Early Joan"?...some marvelous stuff, including 2 hilarious parodies of silly rock 'n roll songs of the day ("She's A Troublemaker" and "Little Darlin'").

There was a point where Joan got too preachy for me too, in the late 60's. The album "Baptism" was really a pain to sit through. I didn't disagree with her politics, but I found that her music, as a performing art, was getting ruined by them...she had become obsessed with the political issues of the day.

I think this was because on some level she genuinely thought she could change the world...

Well, we all can do that...to some extent...but it's important not to become so fanatical that you subordinate your whole life to an issue that is ultimately smaller than your own soul. People who do this turn themselves into one dimensional bores all too quickly.

She later did some fine original songwriting in the 70's and has been a class act ever since.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 12:52 PM

I also love "Very Early Joan". Wonderful ballads on that album! I always loved her version of Mattie Groves until I heard Sandy Denny - have to say Sandy Denny and Fairport Convention really impressed me with their rendition of that song.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:31 AM

Right,Little Hawk. I think she now realizes how overzealous she was at times back then. She has said she cringes to think of some things she said and did in her youth,however much she beleived in it at the time. We can probably all relate to that,except most of our growing wasn't in public. I think she can laugh at herself some now which is good. Does anyone remember a skit done on SNL years ago called "Make Joan Baez Laugh"? Nora Dunn played JB singing endlessly about the worldwide troubles while the audience tried their best to get her to laugh. they weren't successful. I think she got the point,because she seemed to lighten up some after that!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 03:05 PM

To the extent that any here who post as GUEST -- or any who post under a name other than their own are frauds, yes, she is one too.

Some say Sigmund was a Fraud.(Also, Kermit and Jeremiah were frog(s)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Willie-O no cookie
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 03:40 PM

...I just read the book "Positively 4th Street", a fairly even-handed look at the intersecting lives and careers of Dylan, Baez, Richard Farina and Mimi Baez Farina up to the mid-60's.

For what its worth, the only member of that quartet who doesn't seem to get somewhat of a bruising in the book is Mimi Farina. The points it explores about Joan Baez are that she could really sing, was very ambitious, (with a bit of a ruthless edge, in the then-competitive folk music scene) but after she grew tired of the trad-folk repertoire, didn't really have a musical path of her own to strike off on--and after she had been a "star" for a few years, she was really more interested in the social issues of the day than anything else.

It was the age of singer-songwriters, and despite all her talents, she was a better song interpreter than writer.

But she was never a fraud.

Mind you, Dylan and R Farina get a far rougher ride in the book. Particularly Farina. Apparently he provoked Carolyn Hester, when they were married, to the point where she pulled his own gun on him once and he had to use his silver tongue to talk her out of blowing him into the next world. (Memo: never criticize a Texas girl's appearance in public.) That's an image I found rather startling when I think of the extremely friendly and gracious Carolyn Hester, whom I met at Kerrville a few years back.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 04:27 PM

Hmmm...I didn't realize Richard had such an annoying side to his personality. Dylan's dark side has been much more thoroughly documented. Sounds like an interesting book.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 05:32 PM

I just discovered this book. My wife Barbara, who works in the Seattle Public Library, dragged it home a couple days ago thinking it might be of interest. I'll say! I'm about halfway through it now. Quite a picture!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 05:43 PM

Farina was half Cuban and half Irish and it showed. He was talented and fun to have around, but extremely manipulative.

One recurring theme in the book, given its focus on 4 particular people--is that they _all_ used each other to advance their own careers. Dylan & Baez needed each other, which is why they toured together for a year. Joan needed Dylan's songs, cause she was tired of the same old repertoire--you know, those dumb old folksongs we are so incorrigibly fond of. Dylan needed Joan to break him to her (initially) much larger audience. After awhile, he didn't need her anymore. She had ruffled a few folkie feathers herself earlier on, the way she absorbed other peoples' material and arrangements.

Which I guess is how the world works, and how you get to be an icon.

Not that I would truly know.

W-O

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:23 PM

Yeah, well, that's the way it usually goes. They had some personal reasons for getting involved too. I would say it was one of those fortuitous situations that come along rarely and throw together some people who have a lot of talent and a lot in common. When such circumstances arise, you either grab the bull by the horns and go for broke or you let it pass by. I'm glad they "used" each other, if that's what it took, cos it resulted in an outpouring of wonderful music.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: ddw
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:26 PM

Boy, oh boy, Don and Willie —— you guys better hide. AS soon as Jancie in NJ gets her AK-47 reassembled, you guys are in deep doo-da for hinting that St. Joan was damned near human.

*BG* david

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:41 PM

David, you flatter me! No, Don and Willie are not in deep doo-da, nor did I ever claim that Joan Baez is a saint. She is, however, a welcome breath of honesty in a world that is so jaded.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: cobber
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 06:26 AM

We all thought we could change the world with songs back in the sixties. Joan came to Australia in the late seventies and played in Melbourne at an open air concert, just her and her guitar. It was 40 degrees celsius which is over 100F and she was really feeling the heat and the flies but she still gave three hours of the best concert I ever saw. I wish she'd come back again. We don't get a lot of news down here. I'm delighted to heart that she's still performing.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Willie-O
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 08:42 AM

Hey, I'm just talking about a book I read. It's peculiar to think about what the social status of a "star" folksinger was in 1961.

Joan Baez is clearly a fine person with a load of musical talent and has been very consistent in her social convictions over the years. The same can be said for Mimi, who, sadly, passed away last year.

Incidentally, when Al Capp started defaming Joan in "Li'l Abner" (late 60's), the Ottawa Citizen temporarily suspended printing the strip, with a snippy notice inserted that a comic strip was not the place for him to present his political opinions. I wonder if other papers did too. Early political correctness...not sure how they resolved the matter, since Li'l Ab continued to publish for some years.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

Thread drift. Yeah, I remember Al Capp's attempts to take shots at Joan. Capp was losing it about then. His earlier parodies of Dick Tracy ("Fearless Fosdick") and a few things like that were pretty funny, but his "Joanie Phoanie" shtick was just nasty and mean-spirited. Poor L'il Abner. From then on, it was downhill all the way.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 05:27 PM

Yes, Al was becoming an anachronism, but didn't know it. John Lennon and Yoko Ono had a run-in with him in the late sixties, and ever afterward referred to him as "Al Crapp".

All long-haired young people were lazy, good-for-nothing punks in Al's view. It reminds me of Frank Sinatra's vitriolic comments about rock 'n roll music. Mind you, I feel just the way Sinatra did when it comes to rap and most "alternative" music... :-)

Anyway, his parodies of Joan were embarrassingly stupid and wide of the mark. She might better have just ignored them than got mad about it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: voyager
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM

F-R-A-U-Dis Just a 5-Letter Word

As a member of the 'we-like-JB-fan-club' (Farewell Angelina, Diamonds and Rust, Gracias a la Vida)

I would point this conversation to a early DILLARDS recording of "Crazy Creek" where Rodney Dillard goes on a rave-and-a-rant about JB as the Madonna of 60's folk music and help credibility singing Celtic murder ballads...ah but I've heard

F-R-A-U-D is Just a 5-Letter Word

voyager

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 06:41 PM

"Seems like only yesterday I left my mind behind
Down at the Gypsy Cafe, with a friend of a friend of mine"

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:43 PM

no

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: JamesJim
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:45 PM

HI MARY IN KY! THINGS ARE GOING WELL - 3RD SEASON OF "KENTUCKY HOMEFRONT" IN PROGRESS, WITH THE 2ND SHOW OF THE SEASON ON MAR. 9TH. YOU OUGHT TO COME SOME TIME. GREAT FUN!

JIM

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Lucius
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:34 AM

I'm glad you checked back in Johnnythebone. I for one didn't see any vindictiveness in your posting, and I'm surprised at the vitriol that you have whipped up.

I like what Joan Baez has stood for, but I'd rather not listen to her sing. Then again I love Peter Shickle, but it was a sad day when he orchestrated music for one of her albums (IMHO).

Being a fraud? Performers, like the rest of us, have always walked a line between their conscience and their market. Look what they did to Socrates.

Just being on stage leaves one open to criticism, just like posting onto a message board.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,guest dave
Date: 16 Mar 02 - 11:31 PM

NO!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,magenta
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:04 AM

Just go read her book, and a voice to sing with, and you'll see that her divorce was just like so many others. just, not meant to be.

mag

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,magenta
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 12:41 AM

If you turn on sticky keys in the accessibility feature, in windows, you can indeed, use caps and lower keys all with just one hand.

Magenta

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 01:45 AM

I agree with jAMES. iF SHE'S a 'fraud', we need morepeople LIKE her . She has defended human rights, helped overthrow communism in the chevk Repuvblic, conferred , sang, an d influenced world leaders(she convinced President Carter to send the seventh fleet to rescue the 'boat people', influenced the move toward human rights in Latin America, worked with Havel in the 'velvet revolution', Leah Walsea, a nobel peace prize winner in Argentia,stood firm and influenced civil rights, human rights, and the oppressed world wide. Her relationship with David Harris had nothing to do with her oppossation to the war. She was against the war before she met him and after they divorced. She is morally oppossed to war. President Mitterend of France called her'a serious soldier for non violence and peace. And so she is! She has used her superior voice for the bettermen of human kind. As she sang for the Dali Lama 'no more negative thinking, no more negative thinking , mo more negative thinking over her.Baez is one of the strongest, most influential, and commanding personalities of our day. viva Baez

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:14 AM

I don't think Joan Baez needs to be defended...her stellar sense of decency is just too well documented, and she has spent over 40 years standing up for the betterment of this world. Also, since there seem to be a lot of strong Baez fans participating, I wanted to let you know that she had a discussin group too. It is operated through her website. If you are interested, just go to her official website and look for the info on how to sign up.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM

I just sent a message about Joan's discussion group...noticed that I said "had" a discussion group. I should have said "has", since it is very much alive and active. Again, just go to her official website if you are interested in joining...all the info is there.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Big John
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 11:27 AM

Of course she's a fraud. Sure and begorrah didn't she go and make a mountain of dollars with her talent, not like us honest Mudcatters who never got more than the price of a few drinks as payment for our virtuoso performances. Wouldn't it be lovely to be such a fraud.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:42 PM

Making a lot of money doing creative art is a tricky business. It requires talent, strong focus on your work, perfect timing, lots of persistence, good looks (usually, but not always), youth (very helpful in most cases), and a whole bunch of other such variables...such as help from key people already established in your chosen field.

The price you pay, if you manage to do it, is that some people who haven't managed to do it will call you a fraud. Also, you lose your privacy. Joan has done it far more graciously than many, that's for sure.

Thanks for the info about her site!

- LH

Subject: RE: Joan Baez "Pretentious"?
From: GUEST,Alex
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:07 PM

I wanted to respond to the comment made that Joan always seemed "pretentious." I have met a number of famous people in the past few years and NONE was more real, genuine and giving than Joan Baez.

I do not really care to post the entire story of my befriending her on this list, but anyone who wishes to know more may email me. Let it stand to say that Joan Baez has never presented herself as anything other than what she was/is (unlike some other celebrities that I have met).

Alex [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Donna
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 10:45 AM

Is Joan Baez a fraud? No, I'm pretty positive Joan Baez is Joan Baez. How is she as a performer and singer? I saw her at the Atlanta concert Friday night. Amazing! Voice strong, a little deeper, beautiful and absolutely mesmerizing, delivery outstanding. And as is the norm for her, showcasing the new talent with her. Enjoying herself, and entertaining us. Sincere and humble, bowing to us and telling us, "I'd rather have you than the grammy." She could have "sold out" years ago, and got that grammy, you know. Did she marry David to further her career? I wouldn't think so. Her career was pretty up there then. It may have brought more focus to David's situation ... but is that why they married? I heard somewhere that they married because they were in love. Ever hear her self-penned song, "Recently"? Anyway, I heard about this thread on the Joan Baez Listserv ... I enjoyed reading all the replies. Very interesting takes. Think I'll explore your site a little. Nice.

Donna

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:13 PM

They obviously married because they had a lot in common at the time, and had a good rapport, and they were in love. To say she married anyone to further her career is laughable, but people will say anything. People like to gossip.

She thought about marrying Bob Dylan once (albeit only briefly)...imagine the fuss that that no doubt short-lived experiment would have caused, and be thankful she married David instead.

- LH

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:10 PM

No one's mentioned that Joan's first couple of albums were recently reissued by Vanguard--a lot of the "Very Early Joan" stuff, with extra tracks etc. They are great albums if you love old traditional ballads. I also didn't like Joan's music for many years. But I love these!

I'm in agreement with the comments about "Begrudgery." Those who call her a fraud wish they could be frauds too!

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Luke
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:10 PM

Is John your real name? I know a John that's not so up on Joan. Guess the responses here blew the questions out yer chimney. Any more brilliant ideas?

Luke

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From:
Date: 25 Mar 02 - 12:51 PM

Joan's activism to make this a better world, her compassion, kindness has proven time and again she is NOT a fraud. She possesses the voice of an angel and I just idolize her.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,ruben remus
Date: 26 Mar 02 - 02:30 AM

i smoked a joint with joanie in 1976. she was very gracious. heck, it was her grass! there was nothing fraudulent about her in those days, but I haven't seen here in years.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,T. Montgomery
Date: 27 Mar 02 - 04:28 PM

Nonsense! Joan Baez does NOT get high! Does she?

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,ruben remus
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 03:34 AM

Are you kidding? Joanie could smoke Tommy Chong under the table. Trust me on that.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 04:01 PM

Don't think so,Reuben. She wrote that she tried it once to please her husband, and went into a panic attack and didn't like it.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 02 - 06:25 PM

NO. ok? Period.

Subject: RE: Is Joan Baez a fraud?
From: GUEST,Diane Stack
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 09:19 PM

Ding Dong! The thread is dead! Mercifully.