You can't Sing here

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM

"The intangible heritage might be defined as embracing all forms of traditional and popular or folk culture, i.e. collective works originating in a given community and based on tradition. These creations are transmitted orally or by gesture, and are modified over a period of time through a process of collective recreation. They include oral traditions, customs, languages, music, dance, rituals, festivities..."

UNESCO Intangible Heritage programme.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Noreen
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 05:09 AM

Anyone know where Dr Howells is?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:37 AM

Everyone wants the law changed, and not enforced, but there is no definite timetable for new legislation. In the meantime, they can't give official instructions to local councils and police not to enforce the law, but the minister will see what his 'officials' can do.?

Nice one Noreen. But thanks must go to David Heath and Jim Knight. It is a good start................

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 07:29 AM

Good summary, Noreen. Government position full of holes, but holes are openings.

It is important to keep pushing, locally and nationally. I would think that the position stated by the Minister of Sport is a clear invitation to any local councils to come up with formal policies which would suit us.

Effectively what he said was "we'd like to see councils adopt sensible policies on this, but I'm not sure whether we can actually instruct them on what to do." There has to be a council somewhere who sees this as a way of winnig brownie points from the government by producing a musicians charter.

I was pleased that David Heath emphasised that this isn't just about places with drinks licences, and that it's all types of music. This wasn't picked up by the government spokesman, and I think these are points that need to be pushed, locally and nationally I want us to be able to have sessions in coffee houses and suchlike as well as pubs. (NB not instead of)

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:45 AM

Thanks for that link, Shambles, a very interesting discussion.

Would a fair summary be:

Everyone wants the law changed, and not enforced, but there is no definite timetable for new legislation. In the meantime, they can't give official instructions to local councils and police not to enforce the law, but the minister will see what his 'officials' can do.?

Noreen

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 05:23 AM

The Commons debate 27 February 2002

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:11 PM

And I hope you sent your MP a fax, Kipling. (That adjournment debate is set for 9.40on or so. It won't change anything, but it might just edge things a little bit. And the more MPs get a billet-doux about this kind of thing the better.

Mind you most of them have probably buggered off to one of the numerous bars in the House of Commons - which I gather are exempt from any regulations about PELs, just as they are also exempt from any regulations about licensing hours.

If people have the Parliament Live channel on their telly, it might be worth having a look in - and if your MP isn't there, send him a fax asking why.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Kipling
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 03:59 PM

Thanks everyone who has contributed- yes maybe I should have just looked at old threads on the subject but i'm quite new to mudcat- aaahhhh and I wanted to hear some general comments about the weekend as well.

It was interesting to read other folkies responses, experiences and feelings especially the situation in the U.S. Thanks again Kipling

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:34 AM

I suppose that it would be good manners to ask the landlord if he would allow singing in the bar or lounge or whatever? (The toilets are definitely out, despite the superb acoustics!)

On the subject of police raids, I started a folk club in my home town and the first couple of weeks we had at least four or five visitors dressed in "hippie" garb.This was back in 1975. It was learnt later that they were from the drug squad.

Then moving on to pastures new I took over the reins at another folk club, and we were obliged to find a new venue. We celebrated our first night there with an Irish band.

But I had a bit of difficulty in persuading the uninitiated landlord that there would be no IRA related songs nor was there any likelihood of any disturbances.

But the favourite ploy is to completely renovate the whole pub in "open plan" design which effectively destroys any future for a folk club in that sort of environment.

How about closing the pub altogether without giving any indication to the club organiser? I turned up to start the night and found the pub boarded up.

Then there's the guests who expected five star hotel accommodation, en-suite rooms etc., which had me running around in the small wee hours to find the next best thing - a couple of sleeping bags!! Only to find when I returned to the poor person who had to put up with them in my absence, that they had decided to catch the train that night.

There was nothing in their contract referring to the accommodation requisites.

Oh the trials and tribulations of the folk club organiser!

Have any of you had any similar experiences?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 01:47 AM

I just head last night from a lady in Cornwall, who fell foul of this. She was organing a breast cancer charity fund- raising musical weekend.

At the very last minute the authorities stepped in. She is understandably very upset at the way this was handled. I will post more details when I can.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 06:14 PM

Good on you Edain - that's at least six of them.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 06:11 PM

It's never been the case in Ireland, whichever side of the border you are. And it certainly never will be.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Edain
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 05:18 PM

Right, I've just faxed my MP (Michael Jack) about the issue

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 04:33 PM

I'm glad this wasn't the case when I was in Ireland, I can't HELP myself, I sing along with anything, so even when it was recorded I was still singing Live, yikes! Or was it OK unless my then-spouse sang too?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Jim Krause
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 03:00 PM

I have a couple of stories to tell about singing in bars.

The band decided to go out for a beer, or two, after the show. So, not knowing our way around the town, and where the good places were, we asked the promoter who was local where we could go. She thought awhile, and finally said that there was a place out on the highway called the Bunkhouse. Well, we found it all right. It was one of those classic roadhouses made of cinderblock and hardly a window in it. Pickup tricks with gunracks were parked outside. I said "Well guys, tuck your hair up under your hats. They kick hippies' asses and raise hell in here."

We went inside and found the gunfighter's table. That's the one way in the back against the corner, away from the doors so you can watch everyone in the bar, and no one can sneak up on you.

We ordered up whatever was on tap and began to laugh and enjoy ourselves. Soon enough we were singing some sea chanteys and having ourselves a little party in the corner. We figured that no one could possibly hear us over the jukebox.

But we figured wrong. Just then the jukebox went quiet and this large presence loomed over our heads. "What are you guys, some kind of band?" demanded the Large Presence.

Says I in my most polite midwestern manner "Yes Sir, we are."

Large Presence then said "Well why don't you fellas go out and get your instruments and play and sing us a few numbers. And I'll buy you your beer and turn off the jukebox too." So we did. Had a pretty good time, too.

The next time we found ourselves in a bar we were the locals. We were in our favorite local microbrewery and started singing the same ol' sea chanteys. The waiter came up and said that he'd buy us all a round if we'd sing to the crowd. I think he did that to shut us up. Little did he know! We sang, and the house bought us a round.

Any of you from accross the pond want to emigrate, I suppose we could find a way to get you over here. Jim

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 02:25 PM

For any MP, Abuwood,it doesn't matter that they don't have a fax or email at their home - the fax goes to the in-tray on his or her's desk or pigeonhole in the House of Commons. Just stick your own post code in the appropriate place in the FaxYourMP site, and that is automatically taken care of.

So it looks like at least MPs have now had their button pushed. Remember, they've got an adjournment debate about Public Entertainment Licences tomorrow (Wednesday 27th). It'd be good if a few more of them had this in their mail when they get to the house before then.

Remember, you are appealing to their vanity, to the possibility of their getting into the papers...

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Abuwood
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 02:24 PM

Is being banned from singing in pubs a breach of my human rights - are there any lawyers out there who want to use this to make a name for themselves?

from Steve

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 02:00 PM

only a doctor ?

I have sent a similar letter to my MP, David Chaytor, MP for Bury North.

That FaxYourMP site is a great idea- thanks!

Noreen

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Abuwood
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:06 PM

Thanks Alan,Faxed 2 local MP's as my own is only a doctor and not on even fax let alone email

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:50 AM

The PEL law is not that new, but it seems to be being brought into action in more and more places. Against the wishes of landlords.

True enough, a lot of the time people turn a blind eye, which is the only way that bad laws can survive, and there are sessions and so forth happening in pubs all over the place.

But the bad law is there, and it is enforced, arbitrarily and harmfully. There was a flourishing session in Waltham Abbet, only a few miles from where I live, which was primarily for English traditional music, and it got stopped following a complaint about it being kf breach of PEL requirements(said to have been made by a rival landlord).

Once again. Noone is disputing the right of a publican to stop people making music. But the law interferes with the publican's right to allow people to make music.

So FaxYourMP

Subject: GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:49 AM

The ORIGINAL complaint in this thread is that the "Shellback Chorus" were not allowed to sing in the STATION BAR. Over the nearly 40 years of singing in pubs, I have heard many excuses from landlords for not letting me sing. "I don't have a music license" being the most common - this was years before the current Public Entertainment License debacle. I have even had the excuse, "It disturbs the dog" more than once - although in one pub, the dog would howl it's head off ehen my old mate Gerry Milne entered the pub until he (Gerry, not the dog) was was allowed to play his concertina.

Because of the fact that historically Public Houses were exactly that - houses which the landlord/owner opened to the public for the sale of alcoholic drinks, the landlord has always had the right to decide on who can drink, and how they must behave in his "house". A publican has the right to bar anyone from his premises - he only has to be careful not to show racial or sexual discrimination - anything else is permissable. He can ban folkies, specific age groups, bikers, gypsies and travellers - even people with beards (must ban bearded ladies as well, though) just as he feels inclined or prejudiced. And I for one have no argument with that.

I know that folk clubs in many areas have had great problems with the new PEL law - it never seems to affect the Pop-Music pubs so much (predudice somewhere ?) and agree that it should not apply to the smaller folk club venues. On the other hand, Linda, Ted and I, have had no more trouble singing/playing in pubs since it was introduced and never has the lack of a PEL been specifically quoted as a reason for refusal.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:18 AM

That's the way to do it! So Bill Rammell, MP for Harlow, and John Maples MP for Stratford-on-Avon have had their faxes. Another 600 or so to go...

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: alanww
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 07:35 AM

I just faxed my MP (using the above fax facility), which might be of interest to others in saving letter writing time to their own MPs:-

"To: Mr John Maples MP for Stratford-on-Avon House Of Commons London SW1A 1AA

Tuesday 26 February 2002

Dear Mr John Maples,

I was one of the Shellback Chorus, which is a group of some 40 or so sea song and shanty singers, who enjoyed a 'train and ale weekend' this last weekend 22nd -24th February.

We were based in Kidderminster and on Saturday we travelled on the steam train to Bridgnorth and had a great sing on the journey encouraged along by the staff on the train and the other passengers. On arrival at Bridgnorth about 15 of us headed straight to 'the Station Bar' for some refreshment prior to our journey back.

As we normally do, we started to sing but the relief bar manager (who we were told by a local happens to be the steward of the Bridgnorth Conservative Club) quite abruptly told us 'we could'nt sing'! He said that the pub did'nt have a 'public entertainment licence' so live singing was not allowed. While I believe that legally he is right, the other customers were enjoying it and told us so. What harm were we doing? [We also heard that the bar had previously been used by carol singers and for special days of singing and steam train journeys by other groups without the PEL issue having been raised.]

As a consequence we left the pub - along with several of the other customers - and found another pub which welcomed us with open arms.

There are about 90 members of our group from all over the country and we think the law in this matter is an ass. Please can you advise us how it is going to be changed?

You may be interested to know that this incident has been put up on an international website for singers and folksongs and that England and Wales (we believe PELs don't operate in Scotland) are a laughing stock around the world. It is also putting off tourism from other folk singers and their families, eg from America and Canada.

Alan Whitbread"

END OF MESSAGE

Singing in sweet harmony ...!
alanww

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 05:50 AM

What's badly needed in all this is specific examples where the existing law has caused damage and upset. General principles turn-off the media, the public and the politicians. What is needed is precisely this kind of incident.

If all the members of the shellback chorus were to take ten minutes to fax a protest to their MP in time for the adjournment debate mentioned above that really might help things along a little bit. With copies to the local (and for that matter national) press.

And once again, here is a link to FaxuourMP - http://www.faxyourmp.com/index.php3.

The problems with all this is that the law exists and stops new things happening. Pubs and cafés turn down the idea of allowing sessions and so forth out of hand, because they know about the PEL requirement and don't want the hassles. But something not happening like that isn't news.

Again, it happens often enough that a landlord will know enough to ignore the law, and let things go ahead. And if there's a sensible local authority, and noone makes a complaint, things go ahead smoothly. And that isn't news either. But people keep their head down a because you don't want to stir up trouble, so the session is publicised by word of mouth only. And that's not news either.

Not news. Who's interested - and even here it tends to be seen as a boring old obsession, or as a reason to grumble without doing anything about it. But meanwhile the mere existence of the law grinds away at our freedom and our dignity, and it closes down all kinds of options for the future. Back in the 50s there was an explosion of home made music in coffee bars and such all across the country, skiffle. That's where the folk musicians came from. That's where the Beatles ("the Quarrymen") and the rest came from. And it couldn't happen now. Because the law has changed in a way that rule sit out.

But all that is Not News. Who's interested - and even here it tends to be seen as a boring old obsession, or maybe as a reason to grumble, but without doing anything about it.

So when you get instances where an existing session is closed down, or when something happens like this, it truly is worth making a fuss; because if we don't make a fuss nothing is going to change - or if it does change, it won't be the way we want it to change. If we don't speak up how can we complain that noone is listening to us?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Abuwood
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 03:06 AM

It's really interesting to read all your comments, and I thank you for your concern cos I feel responsible. The few people who were in the pub were enjoying the Shells singing, cos he made sure we all had our pints before he threw us out. A local regular there, who is the town registrar, said that not only do they have carol singers who rattle tins there at Christmas (which she found offensive) but they also have 1940's songs on the railway themed days. They followed us to the next pub to hear us. I feel it was the 'jobsworth' attidtude of the barman which lost the landlord custom. It was obvious that this would not be a regular event, merely the 2 hours between trains and I am really sorry your fun was spoilt. The forward party was told that the pub did not have an entertainment licence - but neither did the train! I find the drivel that comes out of most pubs jukeboxes or worse piped musak offensive, or even worse the constant pop or 'Christmas Music' from September that they play in shops. A lot of people said to me that it was nice to hear the singing, and followed us, saying it was like the old days. I now know why this rich tradition is dying out.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: MAG
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 11:06 PM

This must be more of an issue that side of the pond. Here licensing is strictly a local matter -- back in Chicago, when I lived there, you were in big trouble if you had public entertainment wo a license. Here, we routinely take over a pizza joint for a singaround.

On a side note, this whole thread reminded me of a library job long long ago and far far away (well, chicago, again actually) where a buncha plas three sheets windward took over the bicycle rack right outside the big window and bellowed out for what seemed like hours. They could not be dissuaded, at least until a library patron called the cops. When we, the staff, remonstrated, they simply demanded to know how good they sounded. (Not.)

(I'm also told I was singing in the recovery room lately, but I don't remember anyone telling mo to shut up. But then I don't remember singing, either.)

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 08:16 PM

From: "Marianne Elliott" Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:14 PM Who was kind enough to allow me to post this.

Belper Folk Club has recently been 'raided' by the police. We had Sensible Shoes booked who are a three people group. We have been running the club as a membership club, but we have been making people members at the door.

Two people came to the gig and I made them members, they bought tickets and stayed for about a quarter of an hour.

Paul, the landlord, had a call from the police a few days later, and he said that they wanted to meet with us, and him.

We met one of the policemen who had come to the club, and he explained that as the pub didn't have an entertainments licence, we could run the club as membership only, but that people had to have registered as members at least 24 hours in advance, and preferably 48 hours.

A singaround session counts as more than two performers, so this applies to the singaround nights as well. Apparently Amber Valley Council are taking the matter very seriously, and we cannot afford to take any risks.

After a lot of discussion we have decided to move the club out of Belper to a new location with a PEL. But there has been a folk club at the Old King's Head for about 30 years (on and off), and it seems such a shame, but we felt that we couldn't carry on where we were.

Marianne Elliott

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 07:00 PM

MudGuard - you start that church and I'll come worship!

Seriously, this has to be the stupidest law I've heard of. Is it one of those old ones that stay on the books because no one cares enough to change it - like the ones that say you can't ride a camel in Podunk, Virginia, on the Tuesday after Easter - or is this a recent development?

Michael

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 04:33 PM

And here is the fax I have just sent to my MP, Bill Rammell, via FaxYourMP- http://www.faxyourmp.com/index.php3 And they really do read them - and it is a completely free service. Why not doit now?? You don't even have to know what his name is, if you know your own postcode..

Monday 25 February 2002

Mr Bill Rammell
MP for Harlow
House Of Commons
London
SW1A 0AA

Monday 25 February 2002

Dear Bill Rammell,

A couple of months ago I wrote to you about the issue of the restrictions on our right to sing or make music in any public place in this country. You sent a reply indicating that you are aware of the problems involved, and sympathetic to a change in the law.

I am writing this to bring to your attention the fact that an adjournment debate about Public Entertainment Licence policy is scheduled on Wednesday 27th February. It has been obtained by David Heath MP (Lib Dem, Somerton & Frome), who recently raised the issue in a question to your colleague Dr Kim Howells.

This was the time when Dr Howells caused a bit of a stir when he said, speaking as Junior Culture Minister, "...For a simple urban boy such as me, the idea of listening to three Somerset folk singers sounds like hell..."

I know that reform is supposed to be on the way. However I am concerned that it might not be quite the right reform. There seems to be a concentration on the issue of two-in-a-bar. That is bad enough - but it is at least possible for one or two people to sing or play in a pub without a special licence.

In any other public place even a single musician or singer puts the management at risk, if they do not have a Public Entertainment Licence. So far as I can see this aspect has been completely ignored in proposals for reforming the law.

Moreover the proposals appear to focus on paid performances, leaving aside the matter of people who wish to be able to make music or sing for their own enjoyment.

I would hope we could return to the situation that existed when I was young where, for example, coffee bars could allow live musicians to play without fear of a £20,000 fine.

I would also draw to your attention a recent legal decision in the High Court on February 21st that the "two-in-a-bar" rule should be applied in an extremely restrictive way. It had been thought that maybe it just meant two musicians or singers at one time. The court decided that it meant two on a particular occasion - no taking turns. And it doesn't make any difference that the people singing or playing may be doing it for their own enjoyment, with no payment.

This is not the most important issue around. But it is more important than some people, apparently including (from that quote above) Kim Howells, appreciates. It infringes our liberties in ways that would not be tolerated elsewhere in Europe, including Scotland. It inhibits all kinds of live music in an informal setting.

I believe that the present disparity in law is already a factor which influences tourists from America in deciding where to visit. If you like informal music, far better to go somewhere where it is encouraged rather than penalised.

I am sure I do not need to persuade you of the absurdity of the present law, and the need to change it rapidly. Good luck in anything you can do to persuade your colleagues of this as well.

Yours sincerely,

Kevin McGrath

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Noreen
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 03:19 PM

Hazel, it was your word teenagers which I found rather amusing in this context, as I expected you knew of the Shellbacks and the general distance in our age from the teens... did you use the word to provoke antagonism, then?

And wouldn't the landlord of a large pub expect to cater for large numbers of people drinking beer?

And at a railway station, they might occasionally all arrive together- say when a train arrives?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: nutty
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 03:01 PM

Don't forget Noreen ..... I have seen the Shellback Chorus descending en-masse and even at two in the afternoon it could be a daunting experience for the unprepared.

Perhaps the law is there to support the landlord not to penalise the singer.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 02:52 PM

Carol singing in a pub, or on the street - now that'd need a PEL too, if the law as it stands is applied. Unless they can claim it's a proper religious service, which is a bit tricky in most pubs.

There isn't a real reason for this - it's the unintended outcome of a change in the law brought in a few years ago which hadn't been thought through. Like many of the more stupid laws are. It maybe doesn't matter too much until people start enforcing them, and in too many places, that is what has been happening.

There's due to be a short debate about all this in the House of Commons on Wednesday this week. There's still time to fax your MP - all anyone in the UK needs to do is enter their post code and the text of what you want to say in this website, and the next thing the bugger's got this impressive looking letter in his in-tray from you.

Extract from an email from Hamish Birchall:"David Heath MP (Lib Dem, Somerton & Frome) has secured an adjournment debate on reform of public entertainment licences in the House of Commons on Wednesday 27 February: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmfbusi/20225a01.htm

This is, I believe, the first time PELs will be the subject of a timetabled House of Commons debate.

It was David Heath's question in the Commons on 3 December that provoked the now notorious comment by Junior Culture Minister, Dr Kim Howells: '...For a simple urban boy such as me, the idea of listening to three Somerset folk singers sounds like hell...' !

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Noreen
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 02:33 PM

"If a large group of drunken (well ..tipsy) teenagers invaded your local and proceeded to regale you with the type of song you had no appreciation for YOU WOULD EXPECT THE LANDLORD TO TAKE ACTION."

Indeed, nutty- but what exactly is the relevance of your comment to this thread? The group involved here were members of the Shellback Chorus accompanied by friends, family and children, at 2 o'clock in the afternoon... (Kipling may say he was intoxicated but that was certainly not the general condition, and we were not in the least rowdy- not that you would be objectionable in the slightest if you were intoxicated, Chris!)

The landlord just didn't want us to sing and quoted the law at us- though the locals present claim that they have carol singing in the bar there at Christmas.

Never mind, we moved en masse to another pub who welcomed us warmly, and the weekend was wonderful.

Noreen

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:46 AM

It sounds like the general consensus is that it's unreasonable for the government to require the landlords to get the entertainment licenses. Is this because the process is complicated and expensive? Or is it a matter of principle?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:01 AM

That's a geat idea Kevin, perhaps we could hold special "Services" in those venerable cathedrals in Hertford and Chelmsford - Saint McMullen's and Saint Ridley's.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:56 AM

someone needs to go to the source of the problem...who, precisely, proposed and supports this travesty of a law? Do they REALLY think significant amounts of revenue will be generated by it?...Do those pubs/restautrants who DO but a licence want to keep it to route entertainmen traffic their way? Why not a boycott of them if so?

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:56 AM

I like the way you think, MudGuard.

I doubt the legal officials would like it, though.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:55 AM

"Popes in Rome, Constantinople, Avignon.......... & Harlow?"

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: MudGuard
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:37 AM

Kevin (McGrath) wrote: religious services in a church or similar premises aren't affected

What about founding a new religion which defines pubs as its "churches" and beer-drinking and singing and playing music as a religious service? ;-)

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:01 AM

I hate stupid laws like this, if i ever win the lottery i will buy a big pub, and you can all come and sing any time you want.john

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 07:55 AM

I can probably claim to have have walked into strange (very, some of them) pubs and started singing on many more occasions than most folkies. It's always a case of "You win some - lose some".

A landlord always has to take the likes/dislikes of his regular customers first, as well as the policy/rules of the company/brewery some of which (Wetherspoons for example) do not allow live music.

Here are a few tips though.

Look for pubs with a piano or PRS sign.

See if the clientele look as though they might like folk music.

Don't choose a pub which is already doing a roaring trade - you'll have more luck if the landlord needs more customers and thinks that you might help him in this direction.

I often find that bringing a guitar in with me helps - you often get comments like "What have you got in there - a machine gun ?" or "Can you play that ?" from other customers (or the landlord). This gives you the chance to offer to perform - if it's a regular customer who's showing interest - get him to ask the landlord.

I quite frequently don't ask the landlord first, but find a corner to sing in and start off gently. If the customers like it, the landlord is usually happy to let you continue. I can remember one occasion when the customers wanted the entertainment and the (new) landlord didn't. A customer suggested I went to a pub across the road where the landlord wasn't "Such a miserable b*****d". I took his advice and most of the customers followed me - it was a geat evening and the first pub was left almost empty !

I'm sometimes asked why I do it in the first place. Well you usually end up with free beer and quite often nosh as well. Quite often you get offered a paid gig for some other occasion. It's often a chance to persuade some of the customers to go to their local folk club - I've been approached by many folkies who've told me that I'd introduced them to the folk scene that way. I think, however, my main reason is that it beats the hell out of, paying to go into a club, listening to a guest you don't like, paying for your own beer - all to do two (if you're lucky) floorspot numbers.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 07:31 AM

The point is it's not up to the publican.

Or rather it is, but the law means that the publican who lets you sing or make live music is taking a risk. Noone is disputing the right of a publican to stop people making music. But the law interferes with the publican's right to allow people to make music.

Or indeed the right of anyone managing any place to which the public have access to allow people to make music or sing.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From:
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 07:05 AM

nutty - I was thinking the same thing.
Anyway - its pretty much up to the publican isn't it?

Kris

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: nutty
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:51 AM

lost half that post in cyber space.........

I went on to say that many "good" landlords would put the comfort of their regulars first.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: nutty
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:48 AM

If a large group of drunken (well ..tipsy) teenagers invaded your local and proceeded to regale you with the type of song you had no appreciation for YOU WOULD EXPECT THE LANDLORD TO TAKE ACTION.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:40 AM

Well, I have a story that involves a singing group that is rather partial to a pint or two!

We have an annual outing to Mid Wales in November to enjoy the atmosphere of the Beer Festival. We visit two pubs and we sing. On the way up by train and on the way down by train - we sing. We also make a stop en route at a village down the line where we are made welcome by the landlord and we sing!

I don't know what we would do if we were told "You Can't Sing Here" We would probably leave - in a huff!

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Alice
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 08:17 PM

Kipling - where have you been? This problem has thread after thread after thread going that Shambles has diligently posted in an effort to address the laws and their administration. Can someone make a list of all the thread titles and links to web boards, etc? There are so many.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 08:07 PM

I had a similar experience here stateside. It was yearsyearsyears ago at a pub where we have since had several gigs. It was a lazy Sunday afternoon, and my band met there to do some planning over a few beers. Eventually, we started to sing a little, rehearsing more or less, and were asked to quit. We were not given the same reason however. They just didn't want us singing.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:35 PM

Jail - now that's a point. The legal position is in that any place that is open to the public, if there is any singing or dancing or any of that malarky, there has to be a Public Entertainment Licence in place, or the management is in trouble. (The maximum fine is £20,000!)

The only exceptions are that two performers are allowed in a pub in the course of an evening, or whatever; and that religious services in a church or similar premises aren't affected. (And fetes are exempt as well, provided the music in incidental.)

So, is a prison a place that is open to the public? Hard to say isn't it? Not exactly free access in and out, but there's no fee for being a resident.

Anyway, the offender in the PEL context is never the musician or singer, it's the management. Cunning, that is.

Subject: RE: You can't Sing here
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:15 PM

So if they lock you up in jail, can you at least sing there?

Not very brave but curious,
Charley Noble