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BS: MATH PROBLEM

Jeep man 24 Feb 02 - 05:45 PM
MudGuard 24 Feb 02 - 05:55 PM
Sorcha 24 Feb 02 - 05:56 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 02 - 05:59 PM
Sorcha 24 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM
Jeri 24 Feb 02 - 06:04 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 02 - 06:12 PM
Pene Azul 24 Feb 02 - 06:19 PM
Jeri 24 Feb 02 - 06:20 PM
John Routledge 24 Feb 02 - 06:24 PM
Jeri 24 Feb 02 - 06:25 PM
Sorcha 24 Feb 02 - 06:45 PM
John Routledge 24 Feb 02 - 06:47 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Feb 02 - 06:51 PM
M.Ted 24 Feb 02 - 06:59 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Feb 02 - 07:34 PM
GUEST 24 Feb 02 - 07:39 PM
SINSULL 24 Feb 02 - 07:50 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Feb 02 - 08:45 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Feb 02 - 08:47 PM
Jeep man 24 Feb 02 - 09:06 PM
8_Pints 24 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM
harpgirl 24 Feb 02 - 09:36 PM
IvanB 24 Feb 02 - 10:47 PM
Bobert 24 Feb 02 - 11:07 PM
AR282 24 Feb 02 - 11:21 PM
Gary T 25 Feb 02 - 12:09 AM
JohnInKansas 25 Feb 02 - 02:21 AM
Pene Azul 25 Feb 02 - 02:29 AM
JohnInKansas 25 Feb 02 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,bradfordian 25 Feb 02 - 06:42 AM
bradfordian 25 Feb 02 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Nigel 25 Feb 02 - 08:32 AM
Jon Freeman 25 Feb 02 - 09:08 AM
M.Ted 25 Feb 02 - 09:48 AM
Mary in Kentucky 25 Feb 02 - 10:07 AM
Mary in Kentucky 25 Feb 02 - 10:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Feb 02 - 10:22 AM
Mary in Kentucky 25 Feb 02 - 10:44 AM
IvanB 25 Feb 02 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Lyle 25 Feb 02 - 02:53 PM
John Routledge 25 Feb 02 - 03:23 PM
Mrs.Duck 25 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM
Mr Red 25 Feb 02 - 04:31 PM
JohnInKansas 25 Feb 02 - 05:27 PM
harpgirl 25 Feb 02 - 09:38 PM
Louie Roy 26 Feb 02 - 12:58 AM
Trevor 26 Feb 02 - 08:04 AM
Mary in Kentucky 26 Feb 02 - 08:42 AM
Jon Freeman 26 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM
Mary in Kentucky 26 Feb 02 - 10:19 AM
Mary in Kentucky 26 Feb 02 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,D_Hayes 26 Feb 02 - 11:33 AM
Gary T 26 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM
Mrrzy 26 Feb 02 - 12:30 PM
CamiSu 26 Feb 02 - 01:46 PM
Mary in Kentucky 26 Feb 02 - 01:49 PM
Fortunato 26 Feb 02 - 01:57 PM
CamiSu 26 Feb 02 - 04:01 PM
JohnInKansas 26 Feb 02 - 06:18 PM
Gary T 26 Feb 02 - 07:36 PM
JohnInKansas 26 Feb 02 - 07:39 PM
Mary in Kentucky 26 Feb 02 - 07:55 PM
harpgirl 26 Feb 02 - 08:20 PM
Mary in Kentucky 26 Feb 02 - 08:30 PM
harpgirl 26 Feb 02 - 09:11 PM
Pene Azul 26 Feb 02 - 09:27 PM
Big John 26 Feb 02 - 09:36 PM
Gary T 26 Feb 02 - 10:25 PM
JohnInKansas 26 Feb 02 - 10:57 PM
Mark Cohen 26 Feb 02 - 11:02 PM
Blackcatter 26 Feb 02 - 11:44 PM
GUEST,Nigel Parsons 27 Feb 02 - 05:15 AM
CamiSu 27 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM
Mrrzy 27 Feb 02 - 09:10 AM
Gary T 27 Feb 02 - 09:37 AM
Snuffy 27 Feb 02 - 09:38 AM
Wolfgang 27 Feb 02 - 10:05 AM
Mary in Kentucky 27 Feb 02 - 10:20 AM
Trevor 28 Feb 02 - 08:43 AM
CamiSu 28 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM
Mrrzy 28 Feb 02 - 12:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Mar 02 - 06:46 AM
Jon Freeman 01 Mar 02 - 07:12 AM
Mrrzy 01 Mar 02 - 09:03 AM

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Subject: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jeep man
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 05:45 PM

This has naught to do with music,but I think Mudcatters will not mind.

How to figure sales tax on a set amount which has the tax included? Example, Selling price, $100. Tax in NC is 6.5%. There is a simple formula for figuring the exact selling price and the tax.

Help anyone? Jeep

To explain, I just spent 3 days at a Bluegrass festival helping a friend at his booth. (Music Store). We sold everything "Tax Included". Get the picture? Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: MudGuard
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 05:55 PM

total = price + (price * 6.5)/100

or

total = price * 1.065

==>

price = total / 1.065

tax = price * 0.065

HTH MudGuard


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 05:56 PM

Aww shit.....math. It is easy, but my pore ole brain can't remember.......


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 05:59 PM

That is so simple, I can't even be bothered explaining it.

HINT: Switch on your brain and think for a few minutes.

I'm sure, unless you're dyspraxic, that you'll be able to work it out for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:03 PM

Well, then, honeychile, Iz dyspraxic. Thanks for letting me in on the secret.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:04 PM

It's beyond me, but with MudGuard's formula, aren't you subtracting 6.5% of 100, which isn't what 6.5% of a lesser amount (the sale price you added it to) would be?

I mean, you don't need to know what 6.5% of 100 is.

100 = X + (X * .065)
X = 100 - (X * .065)
...then my brain goes dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:12 PM

Jeez,

Multiply (that's the X button on your calculator)the selling price by .935 and you'll get the non-taxable portion.

If you can master addition and subtraction, you shouldn't have difficulty with the rest.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Pene Azul
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:19 PM

GUEST's solution is incorrect. Use Mudguard's method of dividing the total by 1.065 to find the price. Then you can subtract that from the total to find the tax, or as Mudguard said, you can multiply it by .065 to find the tax.

Jeff


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:20 PM

Again, that's 100 - 6.5%

You come up with (duh) 93.5 This is 100 - 6.5% of 100

The 93.5% is supposed to be the selling price.
When you add 6.5%, you get 99.5775. Wrong answer.

GUEST, you're not doing better than anyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: John Routledge
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:24 PM

If you multiply selling price by .935 you get the price on which 6.5% tax is paid to give the selling price inclusive of tax

The use of "non-taxable portion" by guest is potentially confusing as it is actually this amount that is subject to tax.

Cheers - Happy Calculating


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:25 PM

GACK! MudGuard did get it. I only had to read it 3 or 4 times. I will go sit in a corner now.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Sorcha
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:45 PM

Come join me, Jeri. I'm already there. What are you drinking tonight? I'll buy.........


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: John Routledge
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:47 PM

Thanks Jeri and MudGuard

I re-read MudGuard's post and he got it right first time. Cheers MudGuard - John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:51 PM

Our Value Added Tax is 17.5%. They'd never have dared to do that to us in the days of pounds shillings and pence, and no pocket calculators.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 06:59 PM

As a bit of advice, calculate your price *beforehand*--it looks like you were trying to save trouble, but it hasn' turned out that way---the problem is, how much did you sell things for? Was the price $100, or was $100 the sum of the price and 6.5% of the price? The amount of tax that you owe will be slightly different--

Your problems will not be over then, simply because it is often the case that, rather than being a straight percentage, the amount of tax was rounded off in a prescribed way by the state--to make this easy, the state provides a table of the tax surcharges that you are obliged to collect--and they expect you to collect them as per their formula--you better have your friend talk to his accountant about how to handle this all, because, take it from me, the State of North Carolina will not think much of the idea that you calculated what you owe them based on a formula that came from an internet discussion thread--


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:34 PM

The simplest way to think of this is that to add tax, you multiply by 1 + the % tax expressed as a decimal.

For example, to add 17.5% (wich is 1 + .175) VAT on £10 you get 10 * 1.175 = £11.75.

To reverse this processess, you simply divide, i.e. £11.75 / 1.175 = £10

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:39 PM

Clear, simple and accurate, Jon

Thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 07:50 PM

Is this lack of Mathematical ability another reason folkies can't make a dime?


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 08:45 PM

Thanks guest, hope that "rule" of how you added may have helped others see Mudguard's solution. My own inclination would be follow Jeff's subtraction, e.g if Jeepman was constructing a spread sheet for his sales, it may make sense to have some cell containing the percentage tax, - I'll call it T1. On a spreadsheet that works like Excel, we could have:

Cell T1 - the actual % tax (useful as if tax ever changed, onlt the one cell would have to be changed):

Row1 - headings
A1: Item:
B1: Selling Price
C1: Qty Sold
D1: Total
E1: Cost
F1: Tax

row 2 and subsequent rows - actuals and formulae
A2: (Description of item)
B2: (Selling price)
C2: (Qty Sold)
D2: (=B2*C2)
E2: (=D2/(1+$T$1)) ... (those dollar signs are important)
F2: (=D2-E2)

Just copy formulae down a few rows and add a few totals...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 08:47 PM

opps, for all my references to row 1 in row 2 except the one with the $ sign, read 2!!!

Jon


I think I put 2s in appropriate places. --JoeClone


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jeep man
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 09:06 PM

Thanks, folks. If the combined knowledge of all Mudcatters was put to use, we could probably end all wars, eliminate hunger and desease, and everyone would pick and sing in tune. Mucho thanks, Jeep


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: 8_Pints
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM

Who said there are three kinds of mathematician: those can count and those who can't! *BG*

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: harpgirl
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 09:36 PM

What you do is find what 6.5% of 100 would be. You then minus that from a 100. You would get $93.50 without tax

or n times .065cents

That's how you would get the taxes for that state.

This is from Nathan, harpgirl's son... and if you need help with any other math problem contact me at nated2000@yahoo.com and I will get back to you as soon as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: IvanB
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 10:47 PM

No, Mudguard's solution is the correct one. If you sell something for $100, sales tax included, the actual selling price is 93.90 (100/106.5). The tax at 6.5% would be $6.10. I've done sales tax reports in Michigan and I know here that, no matter how much you collect by using the state's tax tables, you send in 6% of your sales at the end of the month.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 11:07 PM

If a hen and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half... then how long would it take a monkey with a wooden leg to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle???... You all wore this ol' hillbilly out tonight with all this mathmatics... Had to give the Wes Ginny slide rule a couple of asprins, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: AR282
Date: 24 Feb 02 - 11:21 PM

Multiply the selling price by .065 and then add that amount to the selling price.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 12:09 AM

MudGuard's explanation is correct. IvanB's figures are correct.

GUEST at 24-Feb-02 - 06:12 PM, John Routledge, and Nathan (harpgirl's post) were wrong. Problem stated that selling price INCLUDING tax was 100, thus "item price + 6.5% of item price = 100". Whatever item price is, it is NOT 100, and thus 6.5% of item price is NOT 6.5.

AR282's reply is wrong if he uses MudGaurd's definition of "selling price" (item price plus tax). It could be considered technically correct if he means the pre-tax price of the item, but is then useless in solving the problem--we already know how to figure the tax given the item price, the question is how to figure the item price.

To sum it up in algebra:

P = item price, what we're trying to calculate

S = amount of sale (MudGaurd's "selling price"), which includes item price plus tax, which is 6.5% of item price

S is known to be 100. What is P?

S = P + 6.5%P = 100

S = 1.065P = 100

1.065P = 100

P = 100/1.065 = 93.90 (rounded to second decimal place)

Double check (all figures rounded to second decimal place):

93.90 + 6.5%(93.90) = 93.90 + 6.10 = 100

Figures add up, all is well.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 02:21 AM

An amazing amount of discussion, for an apparently trivial question.

About the only thing "proved" is that the first GUEST was wrong - for a bunch of musicians, it ain't that simple.

MudGuard's answer is correct. The only simplification I can see is to "reduce" the 1/(1+.065) to 0.93897. Multiply the amount "collected" by 0.93897 to get the "sale price." Then when the "sale price" is multiplied by 0.065, you get the tax. Add Price + Tax and you should come up with the amount collected ($100 for purposes of the original question.

The remaining difficulty is that various tax jurisdictions don't always come up with the "mathematically correct" number as the amount you must pay.

Many tax jurisdictions will permit you to pay a "lump sum" percentage of the total "amount of sales." Others insist that each item sold must be taxed separately, and you must pay the "total of the taxes collected on individual sales."

Some of these later bandits jurisdictions require "rounding up" on each individual sale. This can significantly increase the amount collected.

For information on North Carolina, you might want to check out:

Tax Forms and Instructions: North Carolina

From there, you can click to:

Sales and Use Taxes: North Carolina

The "real world answers" should be there(?).

John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Pene Azul
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 02:29 AM

According to the tax table on their site (http://www.dor.state.nc.us/downloads/E502G_1-02.pdf), the tax on an individual sale is conventionally rounded off to the penny.

Jeff


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 03:17 AM

Jeff

I didn't go into the NC tax tables - just thought it a good idea for the ones with the problem to go to the source.

I have run into places where "rounded off to the penny" actually meant "rounded up to the penny." If the "calculated" tax was 5.01 cents, you paid 6 cents. Places with this kind of "math" seem often to demand that each individual sale be reported separately, since - on average - it gets them an extra half-cent per sale(?)

Usually, math works; but when dealing with politicians, it's best to check the "official" sources.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST,bradfordian
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:42 AM

If sales tax is 6.5%, then you can use the following fractions:- For tax 13/213, for cost of item less tax 200/213. In UK (17,5%) tax = 7/47 & price less tax = 40/47 Hopefully!!! Check these out for $10.65 & £11.75 respectively.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: bradfordian
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 06:46 AM

oops. cookie now reset


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST,Nigel
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 08:32 AM

Bradfordian's solution is correct. My wife is a VAT auditor (makes sign of cross and checks garlic necklace) and she has been given these same fractions to use.

McGrath, 17½% is a doddle to use, (purchase price plus 10% plus half as much again plus half as much again). Musically speaking (back to subject) think of it as 10% with a double dot. Before decimalisation, 7/48 would have been a simpler fraction, (7pennies in 4 shillings, or 35 pennies[2/11d] in the pound!)


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:08 AM

Thinking of rounding, when using computers, one needs to be sure of the rounding method used. Excel uses conventional rounding but I have run into programs -Deplhi springs to mind - where the round function works on bankers rounding which handles a final 5 in the decimal portion differently by rounding by towards the nearest even number (I think) so Excel would give:

Round(2.5,0) = 3
Round(3.5,0) = 4

but using Delphi, you would get:

Round(2.5) = 2
Round(3.5) = 4

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:48 AM

This is not a mathematical problem, it is a tax problem! John-in-Kansas (a man of many resources, and much practical knowledge) has linked you to the appropriate downloadable sales tax tables--all of you math whizzes, take notice! If the "6.5%" sales tax table applies (In some counties, it is 7%) when the taxable amount is from $0.85-0.99, you are obliged to collect $0.06, but from $1.00 to $1.07, you collect $0.07-multiply everything out, subtract, and then just put on a fake mustache and beard and do all transactions in cash--


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:07 AM

Nathan, this problem is not as straightforward as it first appears. The hardest part for me was understanding the original question.

I worked in a lab where we had to calculate the amount of surfactant in a resinous emulsion, and it was the same type of problem. You know what the total weight should be, and you know what percentage of surfactant to one of the parts should be. It's just not a straightforward percent problem. As a matter of fact, I noticed two groups of people and how they calculated this, the Mudguard type (which includes me) and the Jon Freeman type (the engineers). Mudguard sets up an equation and solves for the unknown. Jon multiplies and divides, a sequential type thinking as opposed to the other wholistic type thinking. I observed that the people trained as engineers did this kind of calculation so much that their thought patterns were established to do it the fastest way. Also, one engineering-school-trained guy used an ancient Hewlett-Packard calculator that required him to enter the numbers, then enter the function to perform.

We joked that the best way to hide an invention was to put it in a patent for everyone to read. The descriptions of amounts of materials used are so convoluted and hard to interpret, it's hard to duplicate the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:15 AM

I meant to say operation instead of function.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:22 AM

Working tax out is dead easy! Just follow the instructions on the tax inspectors letter.

a) Work out how much you earned and

b) Send it to the tax office...

Hope this helps ;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 10:44 AM

Did you ever notice that THE IRS spells THEIRS?


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: IvanB
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 11:34 AM

Looking at the NC Sales & Use Tax report, it specifically states that the sales price should be the amount of gross sales without sales tax included. Therefore Jeep's friend needs a method to calculate the selling price before tax. That's exactly what Mudguard gave.

As far as the 'charts,' the NC chart states on the bottom that it is provided 'as a convenience to retailers' to help them figure out how much to collect on various sale amounts. The only connection the charts have to the ultimate reporting and paying of sales tax collections is that, if they are used, the retailer should be in the ballpark of the required amount when the report is filed. When the Semi-monthly tax report is filled out, it's the gross amount of sales for the period that counts and not the individual sales and the 'chart' amounts of tax on them. If you overcollect (which is almost guaranteed when the charts are used), you report the overcollection amount on a separate line of the tax form and include it with your payment. If you undercollect, you're SOL, 'cause you still gotta pay the 6.5%.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 02:53 PM

Not too bad, folks, BUT I just gave this problem to a group of 5th graders I'm working with, and 23 out of 24 got the right answer in about 2 minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: John Routledge
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 03:23 PM

Did they have as much fun though pondering the meaning of life and taxation as we know it?


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 03:30 PM

$100 = 106.5% price
$100/1.065 = price
price = $93.90
Not saying anything new just summarising for my brains sake.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 04:31 PM

Dyscalculia Anonymouse Anyone?
what is dyspraxis anyway - SOED CD ROM don't know!


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 05:27 PM

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary - CD ROM version defines dyspraxia as the "inability to perform coordinated movements."

John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Feb 02 - 09:38 PM

Okay Mary. I got a couple math problems for you. 1.find the vertex of x(squared)-2x+36 if the vertex is (-b/2a)


2.what is the slope if you have (3,2) for the first pair and (-1,2) for the second pair.


3.find the number of moles if you have 12.04x10(to the 24)


because big poppa pump is your hookup, holla if you hear me, your pal ja killer aka nathan dollar



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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Louie Roy
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:58 AM

Jeep Man you have received a number of ways to do this simple problem and the way I was taught when I was in the 5 th grade in 1934 and of course at that time there was no computer or calculators it was a done with a pencil and paper.I'll use your problem $100 tax included.You take $ 100 and divide it by 1.065 and that gives you an answer of $93.89673 round this off to 93.90.Now take 93.90 and times this by .065 this give you a figure of $ 6.1035 round this off to $6.10 Add 6.10+93.90 =100.It works the same long hand only a lot slower.Long hand you would start with 100 divided by 1.065 and since to divide with 1.065 you have to move the decimal point 3 places to the right so now you would have 100000 divided by 1065 if you divide this out you will find the answer is the same Louie Roy


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Trevor
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:04 AM

If you turn the percentage figure into a vulgar fraction (cue for gags!), add the top number (I can't remember whether that's the numerator or denominator) and the bottom number together. That gives you the new bottom number, and the top number stays the same. This will then give you the fraction that has to be deducted from the tax inclusive price to calculate the tax-less price.

Eg Tax free price 1.00

25% tax (ie 1/4) 1.25

To work it back, 1+4 = 5, top number stays the same, therefore deduct 1/5. Lo and behold 1.25 - 1/5 =1.00.

So in your problem deduct 6.5/106.5.

Clear as mud eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:42 AM

Nathan, I can't holler 'cause I have no idea what you're talking about! Also, you're straining my poor ole brain...but since you were a good sport, I'll give it a try (without any referece books).

1) 1 (or 1,35 I forgot what the vortex is)

2) slope is 0, a horizontal line

3) 20


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:45 AM

Mary, I think the vertex is the highest or lowest point. I seem to remember using differentation to solve these so..

y = x^2 - 2x + 36
dy/dx = 2x - 2

at the turning point, dy/dx = 0 so

2x - 2 = 0
x = 1

substituting for x...
y = 1 -2 + 36 = 35

I hope thats right... that was about as far as I got with maths before walking out of school and it was a long while ago...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:19 AM

You're right, Jon, even though I said "vortex"!

I did the ole differentiation thing too even though Nathan's formula was for the value of x.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:38 AM

Y'all are pushing this ex-math-teacher's buttons! One (thought not the main) reason I left math teaching was because of the abysmal status of the math curriculum and it's relative importance in our public school system. Just yesterday I heard an opinion that in the next 20 years we will have a shortage of engineers. When I was teaching high school we would have exchange students from Finland, Swedan and Germany that covered our 12th grade curriculum in 8th grade!

A lot of the prejudice towards math comes from the adults in our community and even the media. When I was struggling to teach straightforward percent problems to some students, Barbara Walters made the statement on national TV that she never could get "those" problems either!

Lyle, I'd be curious to know where these fifth graders are. Here in KY percent problems are not a part of the curriculum until sixth grade. And to have 23 out of 24...sounds like a good class.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST,D_Hayes
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 11:33 AM

Sorry guys........you are all wrong.....

you must divide by .935 to get the correct NETT amount.

100 / .935 = 106.9518

Now th NC tax of 6.5% of 106.9518 is 6.9518 and the price to the seller is 100.

Donal


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Gary T
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:08 PM

Gee, Donal, that would be great if the PRETAX price were 100. Now, what does your post have to do with the problem at hand?


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:30 PM

I am reminded of another puzzle: There are three doors numbered 1, 2 & 3. Behind ONE door is something you prize; behind each of the other 2 doors is a donkey. Assume you don't want to win a donkey for this one. You pick one door. The MC then unveils one of the OTHER doors to reveal a donkey, and asks you if you're sure. The question is, Are you better of sticking with your original guess or switching to the other unknown door?

This is NOT the one about the gates to hell and the twin guardians.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: CamiSu
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:46 PM

Our first GUEST made the classic mistake of percentages in that the percentage changes as to whether you are going up or down. ie a 50% markup means you have a 33% gross profit. Sorry, Nate, you made that mistake in your first post, as well, so I won't be sending you any takers on math homework.

BUT, McGrath and GUEST Nigel mentioned something I have always been curious about. Just how did shillings, farthings etc work? How many x in y? I have always wanted to know...

And, Mrrzy, I think you're better off to stick with your old choice which had a 2/3 chance of correctness, rather than changing to the new choice which only has a 1/2 chance, or has your first choice changed to a 1/3 chance now that there is an ass revealed? I woke up with a ringing headache this morning and had to sing the song I wrote to Alex'(the Mousethief) words, at the local HS. I managed that (best I've ever done) but my head still isn'quite up to probabilities. But I have to do the tax stuff all the time...

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:49 PM

Mrrzy, we discussed this problem here. Good one. (Don't anybody look at the answer until you've guessed.)


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Fortunato
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:57 PM

It's very simple, Jim. Did you get any money when you sold your products? If you did, then send it to the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mathematical Probability Query
From: CamiSu
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 04:01 PM

Ah, Mary. Thank you. However, Marion's statement was the opposite question. In this case there are two asses and Mrrzy says that is what we want, so I guess using the same logic, we do not want to switch. Cool, I got something right!


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 06:18 PM

The original math question was answered correctly, by MudGuard, in the first reply.

Additional information, which wasn't requested but which is needed to "meet the need," has been supplied by a couple of citations where the actual tax tables can be found. (Politicians don't always do "real" math, so you've got to get their forms.)

As to Mrzzy's little asses. In the first case, you have three doors which we assume are equally likely to have your preferred "prize." Odds are one in three, regardless of which door you choose - so it really doesn't matter which one you pick.

When the other door is opened to reveal an ass, you have a new problem. You now have two remaining doors, each of which is presumed to have equal likelyhood of having your "prize." Odds are NOW 1 out of 2 that you will pick the right one - so it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether you keep the same door or pick the other one.

The only ODDS that matter are the ones that apply when you put your money down. That's why the good poker player pays as much attention to what his opponents show as to his own hand.

The clinker in Mrzzys little asses is that this situation only appears on quiz shows, where the guy behind the scenes will put what they WANT you to get behind whichever door you pick - which depends entirely on whether they've decided they need a winner or a loser to boost ratings.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Gary T
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 07:36 PM

To Mrrzy's problem:

One third of the time you have originally picked the desired prize. If you switch, you lose.

One third of the time you have originally picked Ass A. The MC, who knows what's behind each door, will show you the other ass. If you switch to the other door, you win.

One third of the time you have originally picked Ass B. Again, if you switch, you win.

Two thirds of the time you will improve your choice if you switch after being shown one of the asses.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 07:39 PM

Gary

Faulty odds.

Wanna play poker?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 07:55 PM

CamiSu, I think Mrrzy's problem is like the one I linked to, you DO NOT want to open the door with an ass behind it.

  prize           empty cup         empty cup
desired donkey donkey

In the other thread it helped me to understand the "history" of the events. Also, and I assume Mrrzy's problem is the same, the "house" or MC has prior knowledge of where the prize is, and the "house" or MC will always select (from the remaining two) one which does not contain the prize. There is more here than meets the eye on first glance. (It helps to have several explanations.) Any doubters can just do trial and error 1000 times to be convinced of the answer! But make sure you understand the rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: harpgirl
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:20 PM

hi mary that thing about the holla if you here me is from one of my favorite wrestlers named big poppa pump scott steiner also you were right on those answers so if you don't mind i have three more problems for you to solve they are

1.Find the molar mass of this: c(6)h(8) na(12)

2.What is the point slope intercept equation if your slope 2/3 and your point is (1,3)?

3. What are the six trig funtcions if sin=3/5?

from your pal nathan dollar peace


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:30 PM

LOL...am I doing your homework for you, Nathan?!!!!!!!

These are easy...but I have to go now. If you really need the answers (or have a question...don't I sound like a teacher now) I'll check back in the morning. (I'd have to double check my definitions of the trig functions, but if they are right it takes about 5 seconds to plug and chug...hint, use the words opposite and adjacent in your definitions)


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: harpgirl
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:11 PM

you're not doing my homework i already finished the course.
the answers are
1.the molar mass is 304
2. the point slope intercept is y-3=2/3(x-1) =y-3=2/3x-2/3=y=2/3x+ 7/3

3.the six trig functions are sin 3/5
csc 5/3
cos 4/5
sec 5/4
tan 3/4
cot 4/3


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Pene Azul
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:27 PM

If sin(t)=3/5, t could be in quadrant I or Quadrant II.
If t is in Quadrant I, the answers above apply.
If t is in Quadrant II:
sin(t)= 3/5
csc(t)= 5/3
cos(t)= -4/5
sec(t)= -5/4
tan(t)= -3/4
cot(t)= -4/3

Jeff


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Big John
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:36 PM

If a straight line is bisected and produced to any point the rectangle contained by the whole line thus produced and the part produced together with the square between the points of section is equal to the square made up of the half and the part produced. I learned that by heart over 40 years ago and in all that time I have never found any practical use for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Gary T
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:25 PM

Gotta disagree, John. Sure, if you look only at the fact that one of the two unopened doors has a prize and the other one has an ass, the odds are 50/50. But there's more to it than that.

The MC is not randomly selecting either of the unchosen doors to reveal. If your first pick was an ass, the MC is ALWAYS going to reveal the other ass, never the prize. Statistically speaking, over a number of games, you are better off switching. Two times out of three you will have intially chosen an ass, and thus two times out of three switching will improve your lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:57 PM

I repeat Gary T:

Wanna play some poker.

ps. I don't gamble.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 11:02 PM

You know, we haven't had much nitpicking in this thread recently, so: Trevor, 1.25 - 1/5 is not 1.00, because 1/5 is 0.2, not 0.25. Not that it matters, of course...especially to the donkey. (And Gary, why would you EVER want to be on that show more than once?)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 11:44 PM

Thank you all for a very intertaining 10 minutes of reading. I know little of math (B.A. in Philosophy, M.A. in Religion, M.A. in Folklore), but I love discussions like this.

What I especially love is that people kept suggesting the wrong solution even though it was proven wrong in prior posts.

By the way - I love poker and would love to see Mudcat have a poker tourney some day. And by the way - I don't gamble either.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: GUEST,Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 05:15 AM

Mark Cohen, Trevor's maths was right, his phraseology may need correction though. He was giving a simplified way of showing the percentages. What he meant was not 1.25- 1/5 =1, BUT 1.25 minus 1/5th of 1.25 (i.e. .25) =1


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: CamiSu
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:07 AM

Mary, thank you. I did misread Mrrzy's post and thought he said I wanted a donkey. Maybe it's because I have a farm and wouldn't necessarily consider getting one a bad thing...

However I still want to know if anyone can tell me how the old British money system worked...how many shillings in a farthing or vice versa?


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:10 AM

JohninKansas, review the concept of conditional probability. Poker or no, it IS better odds to switch, GIVEN THAT you now know where at least one of the asses is.


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Gary T
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:37 AM

Can't remember if it has been phrased this way, but here goes:

If the question were, what are the odds of the prize being in either one of the unopened doors, if you did not know which door was originally chosen, the correct answer is indeed 1 in 2.

This of course is not the question, and the rules and dynamics of the game materially affect which door is opened in relation to which door was intially chosen.

With the question being are you better off switching under the circumstances described, the answer is yes as the odds are 2 in 3. Another way to put it is what are the odds of the prize being in the CHOSEN door, the answer to that being 1 in 3--just as it was in the beginning when the initial choice was made.


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Subject: English Coins
From: Snuffy
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:38 AM

CamiSu

A farthing was a quarter of a penny. So:
4 farthings = 1 penny
12 pennies (pence) = 1 shilling
20 shillings = 1 pound.

The coins were farthing, halfpenny, penny, threepeny bit, sixpence, shilling, two shilling (or florin) and half-crown. Half-a-crown was 2/6d (30 pence, one-eighth of a pound), and the smallest note was 10/- (ten shillings, £0.50).

So there were 240 pennies or 960 farthings in a pound. Then in 1971 it went decimal, and there were 100 new pence in a pound, instead of 240 old ones. I still frequently call 5p coins shillings.

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:05 AM

Mrrzy's problem is the Monty Hall dilemma. Many discussions about that in the Mathematical probability query thread.

Monty's response when asked about 'his' puzzle: "What if I only give them the choice to switch if I see they are going to win otherwise?"

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:20 AM

JohnInKansas, I'd like to play poker with you! Actually, I'm going to visit my 83-year-old uncle who plays poker everyday and I need some tips. I'm not a good bluffer...at least not when my husband is in the game...never figured out how he can read me so well.

Pene, I'm proud of you...spoken like a true Mudcatter...don't miss a thing.

And pardon the further thread creep, but I just heard a joke yesterday.

Little Johnny was doing his math homework when his mom overheard him.

"Two plus two...sonofabitch...four"

"Three plus three...sonofabitch...six"

Mom said, "Where did you EVER learn to talk like that?"

Johnny replied, "Why, teacher, of course."

So Mom had a talk with teacher...

Seems she was saying, "Two plus two...the sum of which is four. Three plus three...the sum of which is six."

(I'll go away now, Mary)


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Trevor
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:43 AM

Mark Cohen:

I could have sworn that one-fifth of 1.25 was 0.25!


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: CamiSu
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:32 AM

Snuffy--

Big thanks! I got to Cyprus in summer of '71, so I missed the confusion, and Baba (my Turkish Dad) just hinted at the difference. So in my collection I have some old coins, but only the ones that translated. No farthings or shillings. Now with the Euros I probably won't be able to collect the coins from countries I don't already have... Oh well

Thread creep. Does anyone from Canada know how many new quarter desighns you have? and dimes? most people in Quebec had no idea what I was talking about when I asked. Tried to give me change. I have GOT to improve my French!

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:01 PM

Is Canada doing the quarter thing too? How many is the US up to now, is it 25/50?


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Subject: English Coins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 06:46 AM

CamiSu (sounds like an item of underwear!)

Skiing in Canada 3 yrs ago I was assured that quarters were available for all 12 territories (o.k. 10 provinces,2 territories) I managed to pick up most by carefully checking my change for a week.

Snuffy has correctly answered your query about Pounds Shillings and Pence, but as you appear to be interested numismatically, a little more detail can be added.
Additional coins in the range were available during the history of the coinage.
  • a groat: 4pence
  • A Crown: 5 shilling (1/4 pound)
  • Tuppence: 2pence (often claimed not to have existed Issued 1797)
  • 5 Pounds (usually commemorative these days, but "legal tender")
  • Guinea: one pound one shilling (now 1-05) These were a standard unit, much as the pound. Prices nowadays only mention guineas in the prices of Auction houses (antiques etc.,) and Horse Racing. The "Classic" races include the 1000 guineas, and the 2000 Guineas.
  • Apart from the guinea, coins were in circulation for 5Guineas, 2 Guineas, Half Guinea, Third Guinea, & Quarter Guinea. (having a base unit of one shilling=12 pence,fractions of 1/3 & 1/4 were easily understood, and quantifiable)
  • There were also (up til & into Victorian times) fractional coins Half Farthing, Third Farthing, and Quarter Farthing (1/3760th of a pound)
  • The threepenny bit (thrupp'nys is sometimes used as cockney rhyming slang for breasts) is interesting as it started as a silver coin (up until 1944) but ran alongside, and was replaced by a 12 sided Nickel-brass 3d from 1937. Edward VIII (1937)3d bits are highly sought after as they should have all been melted down because of the abdication. But some survive.


  • I think I've covered all the "English" circulation coins, but if not someone will surely correct me.


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    Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
    From: Jon Freeman
    Date: 01 Mar 02 - 07:12 AM

    How about the sovereign (£1) and half-sovereign?

    Jon


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    Subject: RE: BS: MATH PROBLEM
    From: Mrrzy
    Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:03 AM

    The Queen and Prince Harry?


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