Carrickfergus

Subject: Carrickfergus or Water Is Wide
From: DanMulligan
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:15 PM

Hi all,
I recently came across this song and was surprised that it hadn't come up in any of the discussions of "Water Is Wide"/ "O, Waly, Waly" over the past couple of years.
What is the history of this song? Which came first "Water is Wide" or "Carrickfergus?"

Here is an excerpt of the lyrics that I found in the DT:

I would swim over the deepest ocean,
Only for nights in Ballygrant,
But the sea is wide and I cannot cross over
And neither have I the wings to fly
I wish I could meet a handsome boatsman
To ferry me over, my love to find

---

Messages from multiple threads combined.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Wavestar
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:22 PM

It certainly has appeared in discussions... several that I've seen. I'd give references, but I don't do Blue clickies... If you search for Water is Wide, etc, you should find them.

It's my understanding that Carrickfergus came first.

-J

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Alice
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:37 PM

The best thread on this is called Origins of Carrickfergus. Since we are on loki and not Mudcat right now, I won't do a link, but here is the "meat", but not all, of that thread:

Help: Origins of Carrickfergus

Copied thread replaced with link. --JoeClone, 24-Aug-02.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From:
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:50 PM

Here are links to those older threads:

Waly Waly
Water is Wide
The Water is Wide
Version of the Water is Wide
Origins of Carrickfergus
Penguin - I Wish I Wish
Help: Water is Wide
Ages of these Trad British Isles Songs

Enjoy

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: John Moulden
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:33 AM

While Alice has done a great job, I should add that Peter O'Toole's agent phoned me a response (which is in the other thread. What O'T communicated to Dominic Behan he owed to a childhood learning of the song from one Ned Stack of Kerry which was amended from the recollections of another famous actor and (Northern Irish dialect alert!) drouth, Richard Harris. It has not been possible to establish whether Ned Stack had the song as a macaoronic or what contribution Richard Harris made.

Subject: Carrickfergus
From: Stiofáin
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:12 AM

Hi,

Maybe I'm a bit daft, but I've always wondered what the Carrickfergus mean:

(...)But in Kilkenny it is reported / On Marble Stones there as black as ink / With gold and silver I would support her (...)

What are the lyrics referring to??

Thanks for your thoughts, Stiofáin

P.S. Why do so few singers leave out the most beautiful verse of the song which goes:

My childhood days bring back sad reflections / Of happy times I spent so long ago / My boyhood friends and my own relations / Have all passed on now like melting snow. / But I'll spend my days in endless roaming / Soft is the grass, my bed is free. / Ah, to be back now in Carrickfergus / On that long road down to the salty sea.

Just a little thought...

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:20 AM

What you need to do it type carrickfergus into the very useful "Digitrad and Forum Search" box displayed on the main Forum page.  This will find you a list of links to past discussions here (quite a few) which have dealt with this song.  The one called Origins of Carrickfergus contains a great deal of information, and should answer your question (and a lot more).

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: Stiofáin
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:21 AM

Oh Christ I'm thinking too fast for my typing.

It should read:

"I've always wondered what THE FOLLOWING LINES IN Carrickfergus mean:"

and

"Why do so MANY singers leave out the most beautiful verse of the song which goes:"

Dreadfully Sorry, Stiofáin

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From:
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:11 AM

Here are some of the threads that Malcolm:

Carrickfergus in DT
 
Origins of Carrickfergus
Carrickfergus
Carrickfergus
Carrickfergus
Carrickfergus (full version?)
Carrickfergus Specifics question on the Marble Stones
Carrickfergus

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: Jimmy C
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 11:36 AM

I don't know a lot about this song, only what I have picked up here. I do remember an old man telling me that the Carrickfergus in the song is actually in Kilkenny. and is not the one in Antrim. I have looked all over for verification but can find none. Maybe it was a small place eaten up by a larger expanding town. Any old maps of Kilkenny around ?. Or any Mudcatters from Kilkenny ?.

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 06 Jul 01 - 09:50 PM

This song has been dealt with quite exhaustively. I have conducted the most exacting search for "Carrickfergus" - the name - and the only one is the Co. Antrim one.
Annraoi.

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 12:17 AM

Annroi a cara, by coincidence I just received an Irish Language tape from home for a litttle nephew here in Canada. It is in English and Irish and covers basic words and phrases and appears to be lessons 1 through to about 8 of a course called " Now You're Talking". The course leader is a lady and by her accent she is from the north somewhere.
Anyway one of the segments is taped in Carrickfergus castle and she clearly states (in English) This is Carrickfergus Co. Antrim, do not get it confused with the one in the song, which is in Kilkenny"?.
I will retrieve it from him next week and find out her name and the publisher etc. I am sure you know someone who may have a copy. It is a fairly recent publication and should be easy to find.
Sorry I did not contact you when I was home in May but I was only there for 2 weeks and had an awfu lot to accomplish. However I will be home again in May 2002, so maybe then.

Slan

Jimmy ( from Lepper Street)

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 05:16 AM

We've been thru this movie before, a couple of months ago.Sean O Se's version places the song in Castlecomer(Kilkenny), a coal mining (anthracite) town until the 1960s so maybe this explains the "marbe stones as black as ink". I suspect that the song is from Kilkenny, not Antrim, and that there is a Carrickfergus, or something very similar, in KIlkenny. When I get a chance I will try and check this out.

Subject: RE: Help: Carrickfergus
From: Jimmy C
Date: 07 Jul 01 - 05:13 PM

Annroi and Big Tim,
I have just reviewed the tape that I mentioned above. It was produced in 1995 by Gaelmedia. The narrator is Dervla ni Churraighin, it was filmed in Limavady, Belfast Castle, SW Donegal, the Sperrin Mountains and Carrickfergus, also at the Ulster Folk Museum.
In part 5 she states " Today Carrickfergus is renowned for it's castle, and although experts claim that the famous song is about another Carrickfergus in Kilkenny , most people associate the song with this Carrickfergus".
I must try to find some old maps of Kilkenny.

Jimmy

Subject: Carrickfergus
From: MediocreShepherd
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:37 AM

CarrickFergus was one of the first tunes I learned on the Penny Whistle. I don't know if the song is about Turlough O'Carolan, but it sure sounds like it. Any body have any knowledge of this song? There is something sad about being drunk and sick , and singing no more til ye get a drink and yer days are numbered. So celtic, eh?

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:45 AM

Welcome to the Mudcat, Mediocre Shepherd. If you're looking for your sheep check out the Master of the Sheepfold Bin. I think it's in the Digitrad database.

Anyway, we have several "origin of" threads on Carrickfergus, which you can find in this alphabetised "Origins of Permathread:" just click here.

Have fun and welcome, once again!

katlaughing/kat

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: MediocreShepherd
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:22 AM

What an amazing site. I am so glad you gave me the link to the Origins of: . I will spend days going through this. I am very impressed with the level of information sharing on this site. Thanks very much for your warm welcome.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:30 AM

Funny this came up today, I've just this AM been listening to a couple of different versions--Van Morrison's, and Charlotte Church's--who in God's creation thought it would be a good song for her, I don't know--

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:24 AM

Ugh, I'd not want to go there, M.Ted! The latter, I mean.:-)

MedShep, my apologies for not lightening up in my first paragraph to you. I really meant it as a joke, but forgot to include any clues such as :-) or, this: **BG**. (That last one stands for "Big Grin.")

Anyway, welcome, again, and thanks for checking back.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 10:56 AM

I haven't heard Charlotte Church's version but a friend of mine was raving about it and said she did an excellent job. I must confess I couldn't imagine that that song would be right for her. I'll try to get hold of it and give it a listen, just out of curiosity.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:35 PM

Charlotte Church brings a uniform, seraphic quality to each of the melodies that she sings, whether it is appropriate or not--

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

Charlotte Church brings NOTHING to any of the songs she sings, she should be in school or something, learning about life and the world, and getting a useful degree. She is no Sarah Brightman, and that is the BEST she could hope for, poor thing. I blame her mother and her agent! The world would have been better off without her insipid singing, and it will forget her as she morphs into the next Brittny or Angel Spice. AND she should not be let near a song like Carrickfergus!

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 12:56 PM

i think she should tackle the Leonard Cohen songbook

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:00 PM

So far, Church is just a pop phenom with the classical pop people. Whether she will ever develop further than the "uniform, seraphic" level is an unanswered question.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:02 PM

I think we've talked about this before on Mudcat with mixed opinions, but it's a rare performer of classical music that can transition to traditional.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: swirlygirl
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 01:46 PM

Brian Kennedy's version's not bad?

:)

xxx

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 04:16 PM

LOL Greg...

Charlotte Church sings Leonard Cohen... I can hear it now...

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: harpmaker
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 08:25 PM

Christine and I do this song, (vocals & harp) We recentley did this at "Nellies" Beverley, E,Yorks, One bloke broke down, an Irish man, and had to be consoled by his wife, He got us a pint anyway!!J.T. Harp.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: The Pooka
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:09 PM

I would, of course; but I always liked the late Tom Clancy's version & rendition. It may be found on various old LPs & remastered (is that term correct?) CDs.

When he died of the stomach cancer at 67 in 1990, after giving up the sauce some time before, the song he sang so many times in concert surely was poignant to think of -

I'm drunk today, and I'm seldom sober,
A handsome rover from town to town;
Ah but I'm sick now, my days are numbered;
Come all ye young men, and lay me down.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Bluebeard
Date: 26 Feb 02 - 09:26 PM

Been one of my favourite songs for years. Bryan Ferry did a really nice job of it,IMO, back in the last century.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus Tears in Beer
From: MediocreShepherd
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 07:45 AM

Harp's point and Pookah's Point. The curse of the bard! You know what they say about the world, the Irish, and whiskey. So many songs dedicated to the Jeannie in the Bottle. So many songs longing for a homeland that many modern day bards have never seen. Surely it must be amazing to people who live in the UK , just how ferventaly their American and Australasian cousins sing longingly for the Uk isles. I remember how I almost got a bottle broke over my head for singing 'Kevin Barry' at a party where an orangeman was present. I really had no idea of the effect it would have on Irish protestants. How naïve (and canadian) of me. I have since had similar experiences with "Nobody's Child" and "Wild Colonial Boy". Most people are too distressed to offer me a pint. There should be a law written that you cannot harm the bard , no matter how painful the song can be. It's not like I am a Bob Dylan or other 60s style folk activist trying to stir up a fervor, is it? Maybe we all are subconciously looking for some reaction when we perform, but sometimes we are shocked at just exactly what does happen. Aren't tears and laughter accepted any more? Heck, I don't mind crying to a good WTN style movie now and then. Cleans out the pores, I say! There are many songs that can still make me cry, drunk or sober.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 10:41 AM

What kind of emotions would "Wild Colonial Boy" elicit?? I just thought of it as one of those "outlaw" songs although I guess it could be classified as rebel. I got admonished about doing "Black Velvet Band" - I'd never thought of it as an IRA song but apparently in some circles it is. This was in Scotland, by the way. My friend did "Back Home in Derry" (written, of course, by Bobby Sands!) which I didn't think was a great idea since we didn't know which way the wind was blowing in that particular pub. But he got away with it unscathed.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Hector (Selkie)
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:44 AM

Well yes ,one of my favourites,Sang "Croppy Boy" in a Chicago pub once and was invited to contribute to a Republican collection tin. What I should have sung was Stan Rogers "House of Orange" Now that is a song with a message!

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Murph10566
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 01:14 PM

Heard (and was dismayed by) Charlotte Church's rendition of Carrickfergus... She deleted the powerful lyric (quoted by Pooka earlier), losing the very essence of the song, and should not have considered performing this wonderful ballad...

On the flip side, she was enchanting with her Olympic duet-cover of Celine Dion/Andrea Bocelli's "Prayer"(?)...

Reviewing what I've written, I'm not sure what the hell my point is, except that (in typically wishy-washy fashion) I totally agree with (most of) you...

M.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: GUEST,Derryman
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 04:25 PM

Maryrrf,
I didn't know Sands was from Derry. I had always thought of him as an Armagh man.
are you sure of what you say?
Derryman

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 05:30 PM

Yes, I think Bobby Sands was from Armagh but he wrote Back Home in Derry (it's in the digitrad, I think) about a rebel who was deported to Australia.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 05:34 PM

Actually, I checked out a few web sites and it appears Bobby Sands was from Belfast. Hmm - learn something new every day!

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Mickey191
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 07:09 PM

Paddy Reilly does a fair rendition of Carrickfergus. I've always wondered why he wants "A handsome boatman." Wouldn't a homely fellow do? As for Charlotte Church,I think she's getting bad advice. I recently saw her on public tv singing the Habanera from Carmen. She was all sexed up in dark makeup and tight clothes. I'm sure the earth was moving on Bizet's grave. IMHO

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Maryrrf
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:31 PM

I thought that line about the "handsome boatmen" was a bit odd, too.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Brían
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 09:54 PM

Hell, what's a little Homo Erotica among itinerant musicians......

Charlotte Church sings CARRICKFERGUS. Charlotte Church? *Shudder*

Brían

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:32 PM

It is the other meaning of handsome, which is skillful, similar in handy--

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:28 PM

When you've been at sea a long time......

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: The Pooka
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 03:22 PM

On the other han, I used to think maybe it was "hansom" boatman, as in, uhh, like - "hansom cab"? But, noooo: "hansom - a light 2-wheeled covered carriage with the driver's seat elevated behind" (Webster's); hardly seaworthy. Handsome is as hansome does & neveryoumind about that seat elevated behind, ye buggers; this is, thank God, a tolerant age, not to mention a family forum. Nowthen: I bet this is all fully explained by the scholars on the Origins of Carrickfergus thread. Pending further study, I'll stand with M.Ted's handy interpretation, in contrast to the Sodom & Begorrah theory. / Mediocre Shepherd has again given us fine tales & good points & I wish to remark; but for that I must collect my thoughts, always a lengthy search-and-recovery operation. I shall return. (Oh, noooooooooooooo....)

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: MartinRyan
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:51 PM

When you've been at sea a long time..... "hnadsomely" means something quite different, of course!

Regards

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Mickey191
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:15 PM

Thanks M.Ted-that line will no longer annoy me. Charlotte, however, will. Slainte.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 07:55 PM

I always thought the line was "a handy boatman". Annie

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:33 PM

Hobbitwoman, I have heard both sung....I have also heard sung lonesome boatman (in fact that is what I tend to sing)....i always found the "handsome boatman" a bit awkward....

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 01:06 AM

great song ... I've been singing it recently and find audiences respond to it. Those who know it love it, those who've never heard it love it. It is one of those songs you think about, wonder about ... and Charlotte has a pretty voice, and I'm sure she's a nice young woman - but this is not a song she did well, especially having to censor the last verse. I am pleased she thought well enough of the song to give it a try, though.

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 02:45 PM

Carrickfergus? Men of Harlech? I don't think so. Not really good choices for a light soprano.

Charlotte Church has an exceptional natural voice. Should she chose to go that way and should her voice develop sufficient power as she matures, opera is a distinct possibility. But doing a whole string of concert tours and television specials at her age could well ruin her voice. I know nothing about her parents or her voice teacher or any agents she might have, but on the face of it, it looks to me like the kid is being exploited. Bad advice all the way around.

The first time I heard her on Public Television (age 13) I thought she had a fantastic voice--for a kid her age--but it's also a fairly delicate voice. Needs careful nurturing if it's going to reach its best potential. Careful nurturing would consist of continuing her voice lessons, allowing her voice to open up naturally, and singing occasional recitals. But not doing gruelling concert tours! Save that for later. The last time I heard her on Public Television (age 15 or 16, I think) I could hear definite sounds of strain in her voice. She was having to push a bit, and that's not good.

I'm afraid for the kid.

By the way, what ever became of Aled Jones, the Welsh boy soprano? Emerged in a blaze of glory, brilliant young singer destined for fame and fortune! Then he promptly vanished from sight, at least on this side of the pond.

As for Sarah Brightman, she has a lovely voice (small--not big enough for opera, although lots of singers with small voices can get away with doing operatic arias in concert). But to me, two songs sung by Sarah Brightman is like overdosing on fudge. She's so sweet she makes me a bit ill. Nice voice, though.

Don (musical curmudgeon) Firth

Subject: RE: Carrickfergus
From: Willa
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 02:51 PM

Don,Aled Jones currently presents "Songs of Praise" on BBC TV