BS: Europe: here we go again!

Subject: Europe: here we go again!
From: Ringer
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 11:59 AM

1. From today's Telegraph: Paul van Buitenen, the Dutch official who forced the mass resignation of the commission led by Jacques Santer three years ago, told Euro-MPs that he would speak out unless Neil Kinnock, the commissioner in charge of administrative reform, responded seriously to a 235-page dossier of corruption allegations he submitted last August. The dossier, backed by 5,000 pages of documents, is becoming a test of whether anything has changed in Brussels since the exposure in 1999 of rampant mismanagement, nepotism and fraud by senior commissioners and their 20,000 fonctionnaires. Just remind me, someone, why Britain (or the Eastern European states seeking to join) is seeking closer integration into such an utterly corrupt body.
2. At the end of January, the European Commission decided to deliver an early warning to Germany and Portugal, for failing to meet their budgetary targets under the Stability and Growth Pact. But, surprise, surprise, at the meeting on Feb 12th, the reprimand was blocked by Germany (& others) - a Germany led by Gerhard Schroeder who said in an interview with Die Welt in 1997 that "something would start to crumble" if the Stability and Growth Pact was not upheld. That's the trouble with the EU: nobody feels European, and when the chips are down folks react for the good of their country, not for the good of Europe (I don't exclude Britain from this).
3. At the top of the EU sit the three institutions the Commission, the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament. Does anyone know how they relate to each other? Is one supreme? Which one(s) sets the budget? Which one(s) makes law? Does anyone care?

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 27 Feb 02 - 01:09 PM

I think we're expected to understand it as much as we understand the need to put a top hat on to raise a point of order in Westminster.

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:21 AM

Hi Bald Eagle

Interesting questions.
To nr 1: Since 1870 an ancestor fought in Germany's wars. My great grandfather came back unharmed, my grandfather was heavily wounded, my father KIA before I was born. Considering the losses in lives and goods and other costs of centuries of European wars, the European Union is cheaper and safer. I still remeber my time as a draftee; peace was at stake and I abhorred the imagination going over the battlefield and finding my cousins in the opposite battle dress uniform.
To nr 2: Who told you that life is fair, especially in its political version?
To nr 3: Look up http://europa.eu.int/inst-en.htm.

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 05:59 AM

Bald Eagle,

Having read your anti-European posts in several other threads, there's probably very little to be gained from debating the issues with you. Your position appears be totally intransigent and myopically entrenched.

However, a couple of points:

That's the trouble with the EU: nobody feels European... folks react for the good of their country

I feel European. Unless you've spoken to every citizen of every European country to garner their views, that is an absurd and (if I might add) stupid thing to say.

What is your country? Is it England? Is it Britain? Is it the British Isles or is it the UK?

Wilfried makes a very valid point. Europe's history, in terms of international conflict, is not one to be envied. The EU (in it's broadest sense) has ensured continued, and continuing peace in central Europe. The thought of the UK going to war with France or Germany is now unthinkable. Is that a bad thing?

Of course the EU isn't perfect. Who ever said it was? It is however a great improvement over European relations 100 or even 50 years ago.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:23 AM

Jim ask, "What is your country, is it England, Britain, the British isles, or U.K." With a Mudcat name of "Bald Eagle" I would have guessed it was "None of the above", but one is never sure. Also the original post seems to have been sent as a query from an outsider.

I, however, am British. But firstly I am Welsh. I never consider myself European (Continental or otherwise), and I would not recognise "The British Isles" as a country by any definition.

Whilst the EU is an improvement over the situation 50 or 100 years ago; as you state, the thought of war with France or Germany is now unthinkable. But is that because of the EU, or because we are all growing up. With the US & USSR, mutual fear kept war at bay. I feel that mutual fear of a 'foreign' dictatorship from any quarter may be keeping Western Europe at peace, Not the presence of a multinational debating chamber.

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:43 AM

How does somebody "feel European", or whatever other nationality for that matter?

The EU has had little or nothing to do with ensuring continued, and continuing peace in central Europe - the kudos for that particular achievement belongs to NATO.

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: KitKat
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:57 AM

I don't think anyone should be deemed anti-European, just for wanting blatant corruption to be addressed. We all know that the majority of politicians are corrupt - if not at the beginning, certainly by the end of their careers. Of course better co-operation within Europe is a fantastic thing, but why should we be paying for people to line their own pockets when they are supposed to be working towards a political and economic ideal?

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Ringer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:18 AM

Tell me, Guest Jim, how your views on Europe have changed over the last few years. My views only appear "intransigent and myopically entrenched" because those I debate against produce (almost) no argument: there's been, until now, little better than a jejune "The euro will make European holidays easier." I am quite willing to change my position if you present unassailable pro-EU arguments. You may not believe that, and I admit that I myself am not too sure, because I've never yet seen such an argument and cannot conceive of one (surprise me, please do). Notice that I'm not asserting that every aspect of the EU is bad, only that the balance of argument makes me wholeheartedly against Britain's joining the EMU and (rather less wholeheartedly) in favour of her leaving the EU. And I dispute that my posts have ever been "anti-European" -- anti-euro, yes; anti-EU, possibly; but not anti-European. (Well, you introduced the pedantic element).

Unless you've spoken to every citizen of every European country to garner their views, that is an absurd and (if I might add) stupid thing to say. This is the pedantry I refer to above. You've obviously never come across the concept of "poetic licence", have you? Of course I realise that, if taken literally, my statement is untrue, but it was never intended to be taken literally. Why, only a fortnight ago my Parisienne hostess told me that she felt European before she felt French.

You ask, What is your country? It is England, though I acknowledge that I am also British. I feel English first, British second and European a poor third. But I don't see the relevance of that to the current debate.

Wilfried does introduce a new argument (to these threads), that the EU has kept the peace in Europe since 1945. But I (like later posters above) question its validity: it seems to me that a common enemy to the East (up to 10 years ago or so) has had much more to do with having kept the peace than the EU has. It is logically fallacious to assert "There is peace; there is an EU; therefore the EU has caused peace" - to see that, just consider "There is peace; every house in Europe [note the poetic licence, again] has a television set; therefore universal television has caused peace" (actually, there may be some truth in that, after all **BG**).

The EU is however a great improvement over European relations 100 ... years ago. I'm not even sure about that. 100 years ago was the beginning of the long hot summers of the Edwardian period; war in Europe was unthinkable. But...

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:42 AM

What does jejune mean? I think I once heard it in a Woody Alan movie As to "Nationality" mmmmm tricky. Member of the Biosphere Human Bieng Musician Mancunian Northener English British Europian (a bit) These are just a few of the places I live, ther are meny more "Nations" I'm a part of. I think the Nation State is an 18C idea thats well past its selby date.

Subject: RE: BS: Europe: here we go again!
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:28 AM

Bald Eagle seems to have misunderstood my argument: I never said that the EU kept peace since 1945. We both know that ist was the fear of the bomb in the last instance.
What I mean is that the EU should be preferred as an instrument to keep peace now and further on. This especially on the background of the Eastern European countries (our former enemies beyond the Iron Curtain) willing to join.
I know that growing together in Europe will be a long process; it can't be done par ordre de mufti at a moment. We all are bound by strong ties to our home, our language, our flag. I'm a dedicated German, but more a Hessian, and most a Friedberger, since this former Imperial Town was immediately subject only to the emperor till 1802.
Nevertheless I'm thinking European, too. During my studies I travelled a lot of European and Arabic countries, even visited the States and Mexico several times. What I found were people not much different from me, loving their spouses, parents and children like me; comrades in the Boy Scouts and Fire Departments working for the common good of their communities like me; working hard to make a living like me, and since we're mudcatters here: loving to sing an make music like me. Mutual respect for the differences will keep the peace always and everywhere.
To think European is not so difficult for the Central Europeans conscious of history: Many of our ancestors lived in Charlemagne's empire despite of different languages with one currency. Out of a mark of silver he had minted 240 pennies, 12 to a shilling (does this ring a bell in Ye Olde England, with its German kings?)valid in the entire Empire from the Fulda river to the Atlantic. Let's try it again.

Wilfried