'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!

Subject: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,Heely
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:13 PM

Congratulation to all Folk, Blues, and Bluegrass Musicians who contributed to the 5 , 2002 Grammy Awards to the film "O Brother Where Art Thou". It is a fabulous movie, and a real boost to all folk music.

Here are the threads that have been started on this film (oldest first):
1. O Brother, Where Art Thou
2. Lyr Req: o brother
3. Lyr Req: O' Brother, 'rocky candy mountains'
4. New Film, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?
5. Oh brother where art thou ?
6. O Brother, where, etc.:Soundtrack/conc.
7. Lyr Req: o, brother where art thou soundtrack
8. I've just seen O Brother Where Art Thou
9. O Brother vs. Morons
10. BS: OH BROTHER VIDEO
11. 'Oh Brother' on stage
12. Oh Brother...
13. BS: o brother, where art thou
14. O Brother, Where Art Thou Video
15. 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
And that doesn’t include the threads about individual songs in the film!
--JoeClone, 28-Feb-01.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:14 PM

Songcatcher wasn't bad, too.

~Susan

Here are the threads that have been started on this film (oldest first):
1. The Songcatcher
2. BS: SONGCATCHER
3. BS: Anyone seen 'Songcatcher'?
4. Songcatcher
5. Appalachian Music Fans:Songcatcher comin
6. Songcatcher-See the Movie
7. BS: Songcatcher
8. Songcatcher Review Requested
9. BS: Great new film: 'Songcatcher'
10. Songcatcher FJ Child film - info?
11. BS: Snogcatcher
12. BS: We saw the boom mic in Songcatcher!!!
13. Help: Anyone Up For 'Songcatcher' on Paltalk?
--JoeClone, 28-Feb-01.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:23 PM

'Spaw???

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: gnu
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:26 PM

Songcatcher ? What was that about ?

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:40 PM

I was at a session last Sunday, the organizer happened to mention that he had seen this really good movie "Song Catcher". I had to look around to see if "Spaw" was about to enter the room, ranting and raving. Then I thought no this isn't Mudcat is it. JohnB

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:41 PM

Best continued in this thread I think

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: UB Ed
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:53 PM

Working at the top of her form, writer/director Maggie Greenwald has crafted a richly textured, new American story with "Songcatcher." A movie that reveals the discovery of some of this country's most treasured cultural foundations, "Songcatcher" also interweaves three love stories and, with precise attention to period detail, creates an intimate yet hardly utopian community in the rugged mountains of Appalachia.

It is 1907, and doctor of musicology Lily Penleric (Janet McTeer) escapes her stifling career in the male-dominated world of academia, taking a trip into the mountains to visit her sister (Jane Adams), who runs a rural school. There she discovers the roots of what is today known as country music, and as she goes about documenting her discovery a whole world is opened up to her, and to us.

McTeer gives a tremendous performance as Penleric, and Aidan Quinn and Pat Carroll deliver memorable turns as fiercely independent - and fiercely proud -- mountain people. Seekers of new talent should keep an eye out for 13-year-old Emmy Rossum, who makes an understated, indelible debut. One of the most significant contributors to "Songcatcher" appears off-screen: musician and composer David Mansfield's vast knowledge of traditional American music informs just about everything we hear in the film, from ballads to bluegrass to Mansfield's own hauntingly romantic score. "Songcatcher" is produced by Ellen Rigas Venetis and Richard Miller.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: bflat
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 12:59 PM

Netscape.com has a poll on their home page to determine the support for O Brother...etc. as album of the year. The tide is against it approx 62%. I voted in support as this is the most exposure of late that this genre has garnered. Why don't you vote too! And, I won't suggest how because I believe in freedom of choice.

Ellen

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: ChanteyMatt
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:08 PM

I just watched "Songcatcher" last night. I was quite impressed. I think that the lack of known box office stars is what kept it from getting more recognition.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:16 PM

Please see the other 10 "Songcatcher" threads.........When I finally saw it I was less than impressed. Very poor writing and an additional manufactured story line where none was needed.

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:22 PM

Thought we might see you 'Spaw. I haven't seen Songcatcher yet, but I do plan on seeing it.

So, back to O Brother. I go the soundtrack, I'm not nuts about it. I think that could be because I've heard a lot of the originals. I think that it's great that's introduced millions of people to Old time Music, but I haven't listened to it more than a couple of times.

Give me the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band's "Will The Circle Be Unbroken" any time over O Brother.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:40 PM

O'Brother info....

Why not buy the album, its excellent and at the moment you can get it from Woolworths for £6.99, wow!!!!!!

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,lil' VanBone
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 01:47 PM

Well it may not be the absolute best of folk, but I think it's pretty good, and it's always a kick when I heard it on the radio... Highly publicized, well acclaimed traditional folk music? Who woulda thunk it? Unfortunately it's a bit more expensive here in the states.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:20 PM

I meant to mention that so much of the Soundtrack revolves around The Stanley Brothers' "Man Of Constant Sorrow".

Now, I'm a big fan of The Stanleys, but I think somebody must have slipped something in his tea for him to be involved in this version of "Man Of Constant Sorrow".

Download MP3

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:46 PM

The sight of George Clooney getting sucked out of that train was worth the whole thing. I find myself not recalling anything of the music!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 02:49 PM

We loved this film - I've got it on DVD. And it's much easier for a Brit to understand with the sub-titles!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:42 PM

Les... I'll have some of what you were smoking..

someone from HULL criticising anyone else's accent???

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Les from Hull
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 04:45 PM

Or Nor! I just sed it were ard to understand.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 05:43 PM

Amazon sent out Spam. Here are some of their comments.
The Awards- "Lost Highway Grammy Awards."
"The amazing Stanley is clearly the spiritual leader of the project and its ensuing cottage industry."

Referring to another album; Alison Krause and Union Station- "perfect example of how Krause and crew pretty up bluegrass, sanding down the edges and delivering a tasteful, restrained ballad. (Let us now all puke).

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 05:55 PM

I wasn't going to do it, but I gotta. I go with Spaw on "Songcatcher." Weak writing, weak story, weak movie ...I though.

DougR

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 06:16 PM

Hmm. One thing bothers me about OB,WAT? winning Best Album, though: Even more people will now buy the soundtrack (which is good), but thanks to the idiotic liner notes, most of them will go through life thinking that the Tommy Johnson character played by Chris Thomas King was a thinly-disguised Robert Johnson (which sucks). Who in the Hell is Robert K. Oermann (writer of the liner notes), and why doesn't he know who Tommy Johnson was? Grr. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 11:09 PM

But then, Lepus Rex, there is also the possiblility that most of the people will just listen to the music and not give a damn who Robert Johnson was. Right?

DougR

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: JudyR
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 01:58 AM

Hmmm-- I didn't read the liner notes; don't have the album, just have a video of "Down From the Mountain" that DharmaBum so kindly sent me. Robert K. Ooermann is (or was) the top critic of the Tennessean for years and years, and before that, worked at the Country Music Foundation. Knowledgeable guy -- met him on a few occasions. Just so you know -- he does know a lot about country, folk and blues, so whatever he slipped up on -- pretty incredible.

I don't know what is it with me -- I just don't care for Alison Kraus. Her voice lacks grit to me (I realize that's the style). I like a little more color and character in my voices. Much the same way some people take issue with Joan Baez's singing, I guess, and say they prefer something a little less bland.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Hrothgar
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 02:24 AM

Both "Songcatcher" and "O Brother" are not up there with the greatest of movies, but I can tolerate a fair bit of rubbish for the music.

I've only bothered going to the movies five times in the last fifteen years, and four of those times were these two - twice each!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 11:06 PM

Sam,

That sounds like a good deal, but I've been banned from Woolworth's. I'm not sure if it's just the one store or the whole chain.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:51 AM

naw it's Woolsworth, at least in Mississippi.

I love the movie because it is so nuts. I watch it in the context of it being a Coen brothers film. I love the parody of Kirk Douglas (as Ulysses) which occasionally shines through Clooney's delivery. The music is good. But I could have done without the marching chorus during O Death. I watch it also as a funny romp with echoes of Wizard of Oz, Bonny and Clyde and other off hand references to film and story.

CB

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:17 AM

Am I the only one that felt that the movie was insulting to country musicians--something on a par with Hee Haw?

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 12:54 PM

Yes, the context the O Death song was used in was completely inappropriate. I hate that.

Overall the movie did very good things for oldtime music, obviously, despite it's flaws.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 01:09 PM

Dick Greenhaus: Insulting to country musicians? See my comment in the thread Got any clean Hillbilly jokes?.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Tweed
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 03:23 PM

What the heck's wrong with HeeHaw, and how was that show insultin' to country musicians (or anybody for that matter)? You need to go speak with Junior, Mr. Greenhaus. Just dial BR-549;~)

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:23 PM

some thread creep from the other site 'What is wrong with Folk music' fits in here, and now the 'grumpbag' rears his ugly head! didn't mention 'Songcatcher' in the other thread because I doubted enough people had heard of it. But I liked it less than 'O Brother', because it had some pretense of History, and they completely fabricated. Why not just make a movie about Cecil Sharp? Instead, invent a 'character' with a similar name and go from there? What about all the people who might have learned about Cecil and Olive, and the real people they gathered from. And the Lesbian sub-plot? added what to the film? maybe turned off some people that might have been turned on to the music a bit, don't know, it didn't offend me in any way, but not necessary to move the story along, as poorly written and conceived as it was.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:40 PM

Geeziz.........so the movie was good/bad or the music was or wasn't trad or country or folk or whatever..........Atleast it came close to a genre that most of us like and would like to share and GUESS WHAT???? It got people listening! It got folks listening to something they had not bothered with before and if it wasn't exactly what we think they should have heard....so what? A few of them will go out and dig deeper and want more and better and maybe even get back to the roots of the music. Many won't but at least they were exposed to it.

Damn if everytime something commercial doesn't break through to the "unwashed masses" if we don't sit around and kick the crap out of it for a plethora of reasons and then kick back and complain that folk or whatever is declining. We kick hell out of the Kingston Trio for the same reason and though they aren't folk to me anymore, without them a lot of us wouldn't be into folk now. PP&M....same thing. And let's kick the crap out of Eric Clapton while we're at it for bringing a lot of Blues to people who had never really listened before. And what's the deal with Hee-Haw? A lot of the country went country and a lot of Nashville musicians got work........Where's the problem?

Why does the line "Bitch if you was hung with a new rope" keep coming to mind? What the hell do you want? Yeah, I'd love a lot better exposure but any exposure beats the hell out of what is generally out there.............geeziz...............Give it a break huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Midchuck
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:42 PM

Parentheticly, there was a lot of discussion of Oh, Brother on another list, and they used the OBWAT abbreviation a lot. Then someone used OBWTF. Took me a moment.

Peter.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:44 PM

I saw both films and have both soundtracks. I thought Ob was a very poor movie, the plot was inane, george clooney was george clooney...I just did not get the point. I enjoyed the music very much. I thought song catcher was much better both as a fil and as a soundtrack. But both have done much to further the cause of more traditional styles of music and for that they deserve much credit.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,Desdemona at work
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 02:51 PM

Funny, I just saw "O Brother" for the first time this past weekend; it was a hoot, and the soundtrack was great (in fact, my husband bought it some time back, but it's gone missing in the black hole that is our home....). Bluegrass has been my dad's favourite musical genre forever (he always called it "hillbilly music"), and I never hear "The Big Rock Candy Mountain" without thinking of him.

I don't think they missed one cliche in making this movie, but it was done so affectionately that you weren't laughing with these people rather than at them. Some of the actors were just too amazing---where did they FIND some of them?! I've had more than one good laugh the past couple days recalling it; well worth a re-viewing!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM

There are those who don't mind what Hollywood types will do to concepts like "O Brother" and "Songcatcher"...just as they don't mind stuff like "Braveheart"...(ask a Scot what he thinks of it as accurate history)....it may be entertaining, but boy, it sure is disturbing!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Mark Ross
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:10 PM

It would have been nice to see Hayfwire Mac get all those awards!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:18 PM

Bill, we've had plenty of those discussions about "Hollywood VS. History" and in the end, you can't learn history from a movie but you can be entertained. OBWAT is entertainment pure and simple. I didn't care for "Songcatcher" simply because it was poorly done and purported to be based on something true and as usual, the "base" was almost invisible at best allowing for some silly plot contrivances.

Spaw

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM

I liked the music, the re-doing of the cliches was fun, and no one made a serious statement. A grin throughout.
A movie I hated was "Amadeus," which purported to bear some relationship to history but instead was puerile fabrication. I doubt that it made anyone want to listen to Mozart. "O Brother" avoided the precious pretense of "Amadeus" and brought the music forward as entertainment. Visually, it was excellent, and some of the images will remain with me for a long time.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Desdemona
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM

I agree with Spaw; "O Brother" isn't making any attempt to pretend it's teaching anyone history, it's just a bit of fun. I certainly didn't sit down to watch it with a view to having an educational experience, any more than I expect to gain erudition from "Blackadder"!

"Braveheart" is crap because it DOES purport to be telling a "true story" when in fact it's so full of holes I'm not even going to get started, but let's just leave it at the fact that they've got him having an affair with a woman who didn't arrive in England until 6 years after his execution, a woman who would never have laid on such a person in any case, a woman who had 4 legitimate children by Edward II, including the ass-kicking Edward III, a woman who had no compunction about arranging with her lover to have a poker shoved up her husband's anus. 'Nuff said: the truth really IS better than fiction!

But I digress. "Songcatcher" was ridiculous, poorly-researched, riddled with cliches that DID NOT have their tongue in their cheek as those in "O Brother" did, and was an altogether sappy effort, in my humble opinion. The only things these two films have in common is the presence of traditional music and a locale south of the Mason-Dixon.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

I'd never heard of George Clooney till I saw the film. I had to wait till the end credits, wondering what the name might be of that bloke who looked a bit like Clark Gable.

I always sit through the end credits, because often those are the bits with the best music. Around me the cinema empties while they all rush for the exit, and the ushers wait to come in and clean up the place. I don't understand the rush.

People do seem to worry an awful lot about whether a fictional film is accurate. How can something that lasts a couple of hours be accurate when it's telling a story about something that happens over the course of days or weeks or years? Is it true, that's what matters, and truth isn't about accuracy on the factual details.

And why on earth should a movie that throws in a few joking references to the Odyssey be slagged off for not sticking closer to Homer. I mean, The Odyssey isn't exactly a factual account of anything.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: SDShad
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:08 PM

Bill D, you're making the erroneous assumption that Joel and Ethan Coen are "Hollywood types"--which in fact they decidedly are not--and thereby hauling into play a whole lot of unfounded assumptions about their motivations, intentions, and meaning in making "O Brother." Find out a little bit about them (and, more importantly, their work) before making such blanket assumptions.

Chris

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Desdemona
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:51 PM

I always sit through the credits as well; tyhey play songs in their entirety, and I like to see where things were filmed, who this or that actor was, etc. Everyone dashes for the door, and they look at you, still sitting there, as if you're rather odd......!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:55 PM

O Brother is a fun, fun movie. You'd have to be a real stick in the mud not to like at least one little thing about it, even if you didn't like the movie as a whole.

Mister and I liked Songcatcher all right. I didn't care much for the snooty professor, though.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:15 PM

My favourite music from the Coen Brothers is the Banjo that runs through Raising Arizona. I'm glad that I sat through the credits for that as the played a high speed banjo medley that included "Ode To Joy". I thought it was really neat. Having said that I sat through the credits I must admit that I can't remember who was doing the pickin'. Anybody?

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:43 PM

Raising Arizona: Music and lyrics, Pete Seegar and Charlie Monroe. Musical Score, Carter Burwell. Bios and details of Coen productions: Coens

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

Can't find anything wrong. Site is http://www.d.umn.edu/~bjohns33/coens.html. It can easily be found in Google.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:57 PM

SDShad makes a good point about the Coen brothers. Seek out their films, if you enjoy quirky points of view you'll get it in spades.

I have a "filmography" my youngest daughter (she works for Last Gasp Publishing in San Francisco) sent me, has all the films the brothers have made except "O Brother" as it hadn't been released. The book is called "Blood Siblings". I just managed to buy a used copy of "Barton Fink". I think that I will try to get a video of all their films. You betcha! The film "O Brother" is fun entertainment. I was so pleased to hear the "old" music that it could have had Val Kilmer and Adam Sandler as Ulysses and Pete and I still would have liked it. I still say Clooney can be funny when he wants to be. His speech pattern in OBWAT was a steal of Kirk Douglas's and one of the funniest running gags I've seen in a long time.

CB

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:14 AM

"Fargo" is one of my favorite movies. I love weird stuff like that. :-)

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:13 AM

I think it is pathetic that the folk community should be so needy that a film like "O Brother" (and an even bigger piece of crap, "Songcatcher") should be so lionized. "You like me, you really like me!!" (sounds of vomiting). Dick Greenhaus is right on.

I think it is a sociological phenomenon: every year or two middle class boomers have to find some special album with a slightly different sound so that they can still be cool. Buena Vista Social Club, Eric Clapton's Unplugged, O Brother... There is nothing wrong with it, as long as you can make the most of it while it lasts -- without The Sting, who would have heard of Scott Joplin? I can hardly wait for next year -- This too will pass.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:46 AM

Ooh, someone mentioned 'Barton Fink.' One of my favourite movies. SDShad, you hold Bill D, and I'll start the "hollywood type" tape... >;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:48 PM

Hmmmm......sounds like someone's mama forgot to "mind his little fontenell"; can you say "cranky"?!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 05:45 PM

Oh, I don't 'spect I need to be held ...*grin*...I am just a cynical old curmudgeon who never seldom does any damage...

by "Hollywood", I mean anyone who makes movies which popularize and distort a subject in order to make money...if the Coens are not AS bad as some, fine. Still, it is hard to find movies where the producers did their VERY best to assure accuracy in both facts and feeling....I guess they consider 'reality' boring. Maybe it is to the hoi polloi audiences..*shrug*....maybe movies should be an escape from life as it is.

Still, who has seen the "movies out of time" series on the History Channel, where part of the breaks are interviews with experts? One of the standard questions is "how close did the movie come to accuracy and what parts were pure hokum?"....it is fascinating to hear how mallable history can be in the hands of a zealous producer!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: SDShad
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM

Bill D:

Something I posted yesterday (I think) over on the "What's Wrong With 'Folk Music'" thread is relevant to this discussion. I quote my very own self:

"I'm utterly baffled at the "but things didn't really happen that way back then" objections to the "O Brother" film. We're talking about the Coen brothers here. They gleefully make knowing, deliberate changes to history and reality in this film, such as having Pappy O'Daniel be governor of Mississippi rather than Texas, having Baby Face Nelson still be alive at the time the movie's set, having Klansmen do a Busby Berkley at a cross-burning, or having a dammed reservoir flood suddenly. They "based" the movie on the Oddyssey the same way "Fargo" was "based on a true story": not at all. They openly admit to never having read the Oddyssey (I think they're lying: they grew up in St. Louis Park, where the schools are quite good).

"I mean, come on. These are the guys who made "Bood Simple," "Barton Fink," "Raising Arizona," "The Hudsucker Proxy," and "The Big Lebowski." Anyone who expects reality from a Coen brothers film just ain't been payin' attention, and is missing the point. They're storytellers, not historians."

Okay, end quote. To bring it back around to the current discussion, it makes about as much sense to subject "O Brother" (or really any Coen film) to the "History vs. Hollywood History Channel Test" as it does "Time Bandits," "Baron Munchausen," "Moulin Rouge," or "Lord of the Rings."

They make movies off in their own bizarre little world, which is a perfectly valid way to make movies.

Chris

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:18 PM

Oh...NOW I get it...those Coens!,,,*grin*...yeah, that explains a lot! (I gotta get out more)

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:23 PM

I'm still puzzled by people worrying about factual accuracy. I mean, how many good songs that tell a story worry about that? They select, they interpret, they turn the bits around. They tell a story, and that story contains some element of the truth, (since they are good songs).

I mean, imagine if someone traced some historical episode on which Barbara Allen was based and started saying "this song is rubbish, she wasn't called Barbara, and he wasn't on his death bed anyway, and they didn't have church bells in that part of the country, and she lived to a ripe old age".

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Steve-o
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:32 PM

Phew!! I read all this and thought I was going to have to rant and rave, and finally I came to Catspaw's offering, which said it all (and better than I could have). Good grief, you people, OBWAT is the best thing to happen to good old acoustic music SINCE the Kingston Trio! We need everything made available to us to fight the unbelievable crap that the general public seems to listen to and buy these days. Stop wallowing in analysis and comparison and chalk one up for the Good Guys!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,Zipster (sans)
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:48 PM

McG of H and Desdemona, I'd just like to add my vote to the staying in the seats thing. Everyone gets up and queues to get out......or you can sit in your seat read the titles listen to the music and catch the bits they drop in at the end.

EZ decision to make for me {:-)

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM

Bill D.: I am myself a curmudgeon(ess?) of long-standing!

*MY* problem with that whole "History vs. Hollywood" thing is that there's such a vast spread of opinion amongst the "experts"; as a mediaevalist, things pertaining to mediaeval/Renaissance studies-related topics wind me up, and I not infrequently find errors in these sorts of presentations.

While *I* know better, the majority of people accept what they hear in those forums as fact, because of the authority conferred upon them by their "historical expert" label (which always makes me think of "Monty Python & the Holy Grail"!). What concerns me is that I wonder how much erroneous information I take as fact on subjects in which I am NOT so well-versed!

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:10 PM

Oh Brother is a film that would've really pissed off Bascom Lamar Lunsford something fierce. He strove mightily to push the great aspects of Southern culture to the fore while trying just as hard to eradicate the stereotype of the southern mountaineer---the "Little Abner-izing" by Hollywood etc. of the Appalachian people. In other threads on this film I said I thought this film presented a caricature of hill people that was indefensable---especially in these supposedly "enlightened" times. Still, I'm continually amazed how often the real world shows me that, even though we have all of the modern wonders we all know about, we are still, actually, not much further along than the Neanderthals.

ON THE OTHER HAND---The music was closer to the roots and folk music we love than anything in recent memory. The HUGE popularity of this soundtrack means that more young people will hear it, enjoy it, even want to learn to play and sing it.

That cannot be a bad thing I don't think.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 07:29 PM

I object to the pretense of the Coen Brothers. I don't object to them doing nothing interesting with The Odyssey, lots of people have done nothing interesting with it. What I object to is their deliberate invoking of Preston Sturges' Sullivan's Travels (the film he was proposing to make was called "O Brother Where Art Thou") and making a film that was not 1/100th of anything Sturges made. I know no one knows or cares about this but me, but what the hell.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:08 PM

Art: as per my earlier coment re:"Blackadder", I saw "OBWAT" as an affectionate poke at many cliches about the Depression South.

It's always struck me as strange that the references in a forum LIKE "Blackadder", (ie, Morris dancers: "40 effeminate blacksmiths waving their hankies in the air")are taken as humour & not pursued as slanderous libel by their "targets", while a film like the on eunder discussion is charged with all sorts of nasty, nefarious motives.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Áine
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:37 PM

Pardon me for jumping in here after such a long discussion; but, I recall hearing a radio interview with one of the Stanley Brothers, who said that the version of Man of Constant Sorrow used in the film was taken directly from a 1954 recording by the Stanley Brothers. And as for Didn't Leave Nobody But The Baby, that tune was taken from an old Black spiritual. I remember my grandmother singing that tune to me when I was very little in Pineville, Louisiana. However, I do have to brag on T. Bone Burnett, a fine Texas boy, for helping to bring it back to the public's attention. I just wish someone could come up with the original lyrics.

As for the 'Hollywood' thing -- well, heck, if one young person picks up a fiddle, guitar, banjo or mandolin because she or he listened to the soundtrack, or saw the film, then whatever 'bad' thing there was about this whole business has been wiped away.

All the best, Áine

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:48 PM

Myself I think Preston Sturgess would probably have liked it, and been amused at the references to "Sullivan's Travels" (which is one of my favourite films too.) But I can't think of any way of proving that.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:51 PM

He would have despised it. yours, Peter T. (nor can I prove it).

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:51 PM

And if they had any sense they'd have put Sullivans Travels out on release again, riding on the coat tails of Oh Brother. (Except that in England Oh Brother didn't get shown in that many cinemas, not for more than the odd screening.)

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:54 PM

Wisely, they forebore, probably on the orders of the Coen Brothers, who wanted to retain their reputation as innovative film makers (hohum). yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:12 PM

Oh, geez. A conspiracy. :P

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:46 PM

Hills? in Mississippi? *BG*

CB

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: MichaelM
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 11:59 PM

I cannot directly attribute it to this movie but a music teacher friend told me of a surreal experience. John Cleghorn, recently retired chairman of the Royal Bank of Canada (our country's largest bank) was taking beginner banjo lessons in a studio next to Harry Rosen, the eponymous owner of Canada's premier high-end menswear store . Harry was taking mandolin lessons.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,Stephen Burridge
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 06:36 PM

I just wanted to reply to the post by "Dicho", who doubted that "Amadeus" made anyone want to listen to Mozart. It sure made me want to listen to Mozart. I still remember walking out of the cinema with the echoes of all that glorious music in my mind. Visually it was great, as well. Yes, the characterizations, particularly of Mozart himself, were very broad, and the story wasn't much. But I think the movie was about the music.

I'm an admirer of the Coen brothers and loved "O Brother." Haven't seen "Songcatcher."

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:21 PM

Coyote breath, you are daid wrong! Up thar in the northeast corner of Miss'sippi, thar is a mounting all of 806 feet high in its stocking feet.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:32 PM

Desdemona, I mean no offense at all but...

If that was an affectionate poke at stereotypes, it is, itself, just that very thing----a string of stereotypes that I found silly, a bad parody of Homer's work that didn't need or warrant any parody at all. In itself, it presented a pretty dumb reason to showcase some good music. I don't think it was respectful to the culture it ridiculed or the fine musicians who it used.

Art

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

The old lullaby, "Didn't Leave Nobody But the Baby," contains a reference to the devil in one of the verses. Anyone know this song? Origin could be either white or black; nothing really to point either way. Apparently OBWAY obtained the song from "Down From The Mountain," a documentary film with the song sung by Mrs Sidney Carter. Has anyone seen this Doub et. al. film? The song was supposedly "found" by Lomax in 1959.
Adding my request to Áine's.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Áine
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:23 PM

Dicho -- I know this "Didn't Leave Nobody But the Baby" is from an old Black spiritual . . . But along with yourself, I am anxiously awaiting some word about the original lyrics to this tune. The 'additional' verses to the film version are credited to T. Bone Burnett, so I'm thinking the the 'devil' reference is coming from him.

My mamaw (a/k/a grandmother) sang this tune to me as a lullaby -- however, the tune has the cadence and evocative feeling that's identical to a spiritual that I remember hearing as a child in Louisiana. If anyone can identify the origin of this song, it would be wonderful.

Here's keeping my fingers crossed that one of the 'Catters can come through on this one, Áine

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 03:51 AM

Aine --- there's been a whole bunch of threads on this song, too many to clicky. Stick the title in Forum Search and see what you get.

BJ

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 09:10 AM

I made four long comments on 'O Brother' in the What's Wrong with Folk Music thread, no point in rehashing them here, I'm with Art on this one.

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 11:21 AM

What the hell, I still say it was a fun movie. But what do I know - I own my own copy of Ishtar, too.

Desdemona's reference to Monty Python got me really tickled... not only am I a big fan of The Holy Grail (yes, I have my own copy of that also)... but Mister just bought a book about medieval siege warfare. In it, there is a drawing of a trebuchet with a dead horse in the sling. Apparently it was a common practice for the attackers to fling dead animals, dung and other offal into the opponent's stronghold, to promote sickness, disease, and general discomfort.

So Monty Python wasn't too terribly off with the cow-flinging incident. ;-)

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: voyager
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 04:32 PM

Just to raise this thread back to life....

Origins of the Plot (OBWAT)

I was amused to find this link in the 1941 Preston Sturges movie - Sullivan's Travels. The film is a great comedy starring Joel McCrea and Veronica Lake.

voyager

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Jun 11 - 06:41 PM

I'm tryin' to believe that some of the folks here who normally show good loose sense of humor got their drawers in knots about "disrespectful stereotypes" and "distortion of history" in OBWAT. Why would anyone take anything in that crazy hilarious off the wall farce seriously?
Did you ever see "The Paleface"? Did you go on a rant because the Calamity Jane narrative and characterization was just a little less than historically precise?

Subject: RE: 'O Brother Where Art Thou'!!
From: glueman
Date: 28 Jun 11 - 04:15 AM

All kinds of movies were based on classical literature. 'I Walked With A Zombie' was Jane Eyre set in the West Indies. B-movie producers were frequently erudite and well read and smart enough not to show it.