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BS: When it's over...
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Subject: When it's over... From: GUEST,Anon thru sadness Date: 01 Mar 02 - 07:25 PM How do you cope when the person you love, and who loves you, simply can't live together? When the diferences outweigh the points of common values and the no-go areas to avoid conflict become the only areas there are? Tonite we have reached the conclusion that we just can't live together.....and I ache.How is it that sometimes love just isn't enough? |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: kendall Date: 01 Mar 02 - 07:32 PM Does it help to know you are not alone? It's a big boat we are all in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: bflat Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:06 PM Dear Anon, If you both really love each other than WORK IT OUT!! Real love for someone is rare indeed. Ellen |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: kendall Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:36 PM Been there, done it. Sometimes love is NOT enough. Period. When one partner says, in effect, "It's my way, or the highway" the must either lose his identity or split. It all rests on mutual interests; if you dont have that, you are screwed, and you should cut your losses instead of wasting 17 years of your life trying to "make it work" |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Desdemona Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:42 PM Get an objective, outside mediator (I'm talking about counselling of some sort); if nothing else you'll both get some insights into your behaviour(s), and can say truthfully that you really gave it the old college try. Even if things don't work out, you'll hopefully have less acrimony, and will be able to take what you've learned with you into your next relationship. Best of luck, D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: kendall Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:49 PM Councilling only works if BOTH parties want to make it work. My wife and I had serious differences around affection. She chose a therapist, didn't like what the therapist said to her and that was that. She would have to do some work and that was not on the table. She wanted it to work, but, I would have to adjust to her way of thinking. I should have gotten a clue when I saw the note on her fridge that said "In this life, it is my duty to be self serving." |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Steve in Idaho Date: 02 Mar 02 - 08:22 AM Love is something you do for each other - it's not a feeling (feelings can be a small piece of it but doesn't really touch base with reality). And doing is forgiving - sounds like not much of that has happened. Kendall is right about counseling. If both are willing to go and make changes it can often come back together, or at least make for an amiable parting. People get lost in their own worlds. Often thinking it is the only world. And then wake up and find their partner has another separate reality. I am finding that the older I get the broader are the possibilities for people being partners. Just takes a lot of "want to" by both and a willingness to make change. Usually without a lot of expectations around quick fixes. Takes people years to get to where they are - give it that long to get it back if that is what you want. Or just go on and be friends. I don't know if you have kids or not. If you do it is very important that they know they have two parents who will love them and always be there for them for the rest of the parent's lives. It always tears me up when parents separate and then try to turn their kids into allies against the other one. Look hard and honestly at what you want - then decide if you can make the changes to accomodate the other. If yes - go for it. If not - move on as friends. All the best Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Celtic Soul Date: 02 Mar 02 - 08:40 AM I think Desdemona is right. I would seek counseling. There are times when people see it as being futile, and then with a little outside help, they are able to turn things around. Kendalls point about both parties needing to want it to work aside, you will never know if you did all you could unless you at least suggest it. I recently read that, if one partner seems reluctant, that wording it like this can help: "I want to go work out some of my feelings with a counselor. Would you be willing to come and help?" It makes the reason for the visit *your* feelings, and is less scary for a partner. Many times, when someone says they want counseling, their partner hears "There's something wrong with you that I want to fix with a counselor". *Then* if your partner says no, you will not walk away wondering if there was something more that you did not try. And in any case, even if your partner does say no to the counseling, I suggest it for yourself alone. I have heard of cases where one person has gone to counseling, and it has turned their relationships around. From my own experience, it did not save my last relationship, but it helped me to process my feelings from it, and also prepared me for my next relationship. It helped me to see the areas I needed most to work on, and it helped me to make a better choice for a partner. I learned a lot that I take with me daily. Perhaps there is hope yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Mr Red Date: 02 Mar 02 - 09:53 AM Anon - you are entering a new phase. Love doesn't have to stop. But my! It has to change. It is decision time! When Miss Red & I parted, it was anticipated I would be angry or downbeat - I almost took a peverse delight in being Mr Nice for the month's wait- nearly blew it too! At the departure I wanted it to be final without any contact. However one cry of help later demanded I address the problem so I now telephone (less & less frequently) opening with a song. 1 Verse usually but I do get an honest opinion on any new songs (2 so far). Neither of us want it to lead anywhere else. Can you find an angle to turn the disappointment into a worthwhile task? Would it be safe to? I would wish you luck but luck isn't the best - hard work is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Allan C. Date: 02 Mar 02 - 10:19 AM Love IS all you need! However, you may need to get a better understanding of what love really is. I fully agree with the idea of getting counseling. That can truly help if the counselor is skilled and if both parties are wanting to put forth the effort needed. I completely concur with the approach that Celtic Soul espouses. It really doesn't work well to tell someone that they need fixing. I have found considerable value in the chapters on the subject of love found in the book, "The Road Less Traveled". I have never found any other resource that so plainly spells out the various manifestations of love and their respective, popular fallasies. I strongly believe that understanding what is meant by "love" is vital to making progress toward resolution of the kind of difficulties you face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: SharonA Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:19 PM GUEST, "Anon": Let me add my voice of experience to those who say that love is not enough. I agree with those who say that counselling will not work if each party is not willing to put forth the effort of modifying his or her thinking and/or behavior to make it work. Even in the best of relationships, both parties have to be willing to make the relationship work. And it certainly works much more easily if, as kendall says, the parties have mutual interests. The most important mutual interest, of course, is in the happiness of the partner; if that is not shared equally, then the relationship is doomed because it's no longer a relationship – it's a power struggle. I've been in the situation more than once where, as you say, "the no-go areas to avoid conflict become the only areas there are" – twice in live-in relationships. In the first, those areas increased over several years (BTW he refused to go with me to counseling); in the second, the relationship started out with mostly no-go areas and after two years of trying (including counseling for us both, together and individually) we found that love couldn't conquer all. I wish I had a good answer for you about how to cope. Aside from continuing to get up every morning and continuing to put one foot in front of the other, I don't know what to tell you. I've found release through writing songs on the subject and singing them to express my feelings in a positive way (this has the advantage of eliciting comments of support from others who have been through the same thing). I guess that's my version of the "worthwhile task" that Mr. Red was talking about. But I did not have any lasting success with counseling, and I'm very wary of it now. So I guess my piece of advice would be to choose your counselor VERY carefully if that's the route you take. The counsellor must be a good "fit" for both partners, since (s)he will essentially be a part of the relationship, at least for a while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: SharonA Date: 04 Mar 02 - 06:44 PM ...Anyway, I just wanted to say, as kendall says, that you're not alone. I ache for you and with you, as do so many others here. Hope that helps a little. Sharon |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Nancy King Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:16 PM Well, I've been there too, and it ain't fun. I lucked into a really great therapist as soon as I realized -- rather suddenly -- that we had a problem. She saw us together and saw me individually. Himself wasn't really buying into it, though, as it turned out. One of those mentioned above who didn't really want to make it work, though he continued to say he did for a long time. So now he's the ex. I kept seeing the same therapist throughout this fairly lengthy period. She helped me a LOT. Then she made a career change. I tried another but didn't care for a diet of platitudes and stopped. I could have used the good one a few times since then, but it's never seemed worth starting over with someone new. May get there yet... Anon, I really hope you and your partner BOTH want to work it out, and that you will find a counselor whom BOTH of you like AND respect. Then I think you stand a really good chance. Even if it doesn't work, or your partner isn't interested, do get some therapy for yourself. It really helps to be able to get in to your own head. Good luck to you! Nancy |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: kendall Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM Keep busy. An idle brain really is the devil's playground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: GUEST,cretinous yahoo Date: 04 Mar 02 - 07:54 PM Get out and do something. Sitting around feeling sorry for yourself is quite natural, but, it's the worst thing you can do for/to yourself. Try new things, visit different places, meet new people, get a hobby. Lean on true friends for support. That's why we have friends. Hang out with people who love you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Dave Wynn Date: 04 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM No advice to offer. Just that the tone of your post touched me and made me sad for you. Wish I could help. Spot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: heric Date: 04 Mar 02 - 11:34 PM Never thought I would be quoting Nancy Reagan, but here she is in today's newspaper: "Marriage is never 50/50. One of you is always giving more, always compromising. And we've both done our share of compromising in these 50 years."
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 Mar 02 - 01:02 AM But when it seems more and more like one person is giving ground every time, and the other scoring points over them, it is time to re-evaluate the situation. When one partner progresses and the other is exactly the same as they were 5, 10, 15 years ago, then something needs to be sorted. All relationships are compromises. But it comes to a point, if you have done nothing but compromise and the other doesn't appear to have done anything, then something will blow. Hopefully it's just an argument, tears, recriminations and reconsilliation, sometimes it isn't. You have to realise that no matter how long you've been together, it is always within you to surprise the other. As soon as you stop respecting each other, giving each other that privacy and space we all need, then you might as well start packing. Regretably, there are people in the world who love each other dearly, would do anything for the other but who just would kill each other if they had to live together for longer than 3 days. There are ways round it but it involves a sort of 'Steptoe and Son' division of the house into territories and neutral zones. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: GUEST Date: 05 Mar 02 - 01:26 AM Hey, Anon thru sadness, that's were I was 2 months ago, for the last time (a try at reconciliation just got hung up on the same old points. Some big differences just can't be smoothed over again, and again, and again). It hurts for a while, but that's just part of the transition to a new life. I'm just as happy now that I don't have to fight her all the time, and I'm really better off now and don't have to structure my life around hers. [She's now a deacon of her church and very self-righteous, and I'm an agnostic.] Enough, because some Mudcaters know me personally and I don't want to give too much away.
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Genie Date: 05 Mar 02 - 02:01 AM Anon, I don't have much to add to the advice above on working through your difficulties in the relationship. How do you cope with the loss? It may be heresy to suggest this at a site like Mudcat, but sometimes great music comes out of times of great personal turmoil and loss. The process itself --writing, singing, playing--can help you cope and heal. If nothing else, you may end up with some great songs. I hope you find some comfort in the support of folks here and in music, too. Genie |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Fibula Mattock Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:19 AM Anon, I sympathise - my intended marriage just has collapsed and distance has proved too much to overcome. And it fucking hurts. A friend offered me the best advice when she said "there's no such thing as the right person, just the right person for the right time". Society - societies, in fact, as it seems global - push forward the view that romantic love is all-conquerable, that we should leave things to fate, that "if it's meant to be, it'll be". Well, that's the stuff that movies and books are made of, but not real life, and if I hear one more person tell me "if it's meant to be, it'll be", I'll swing for 'em. I don't believe in fate; love isn't enough, and my reasoning is that you have to make yourself happy before you can make anyone else happy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Amos Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:47 AM Romantacism of the storybook type is not only a failed model but, when it is abused and put in place of real existence with real communication, it is a treacherously harmful model. Two rules that _do_ work among many candidates are (a) that love is enough providing you actually give yourself enough of it to know who you are. And (b) that connections between people are created entitites and they live as long as they are being postulated into existence and energized by the new attention of the participants. When that stops, relationships stop. And(c) the doctrine of what to do when in fog, uncertainty and doubt: communicate more. This can be a bitch in application though, and not everyone believes it. Regards, A.
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Pseudolus Date: 05 Mar 02 - 10:54 AM I to believe in giving it the old college try. In the end, you will be able to say that you gave it your all. I also agree with Kendall in that 17 years of trying to work it out is extreme and too long. Make the try realistic (perhaps you fel that you already made the old college try) and then move on. Whatever you decide to do, meet the ache head on. Grieve, it's natural AND necessary. Hoping the ache will just go away is like trying to wish away pounds on a diet! Both take time and time is the only healer in this case. Don't wallow in the sadness, but if you feel like crying, don't fight it. Have your cry and then get busy. I tried to mask my sadness until I went to a counselor and realized that I needed to grieve first, heal second. There will be highs and lows, just try to make each high, higher than the last. I am in a great situation now. I am remarried in fact and my ex-wife and I are better friends now than when we were married and shouldn't be. But I couldn't have gotten here without grieving first.
Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Rick Fielding Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:00 AM I've been through it (as most of us have) a number of times, and it's a huge shock to your system. The hardest part to deal with is that ONE person in the relationship simply wants out. Perhaps they're going through the motions of 'trying to work things out', but it simply isn't working for them. Look back over a lifetime, and you'll see that sometimes that person was you, and sometimes it was the other person. I've forgotten various arguments and profound statements from previous break-ups...save for one thing, that a former partner told me: "It's not the end of the book, it's the start of a new chapter". She was right. We're both richer for not having verbally torn each other apart back then. Thanks Pam, and good luck in your "current life". You hit the nail on the head. Rick |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: MMario Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:02 AM I think there are probably lots of couple out there who love each other - who shouldn't be married. Trying to figure out which is which is the hard part. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: wysiwyg Date: 05 Mar 02 - 11:24 AM Anon, answering your question-- What gets in the way between people is undischarged distress left over from the past, usually childhood. (See www.rc.org. Re-evaluation Counseling, or "RC.") A short version of my experience in that regard, as a person in relationships and as a counselor, is that most of us tend to seek out relationships that will push us past those old distresses, so we can work on them and get rid of them. That means that we seek out people with whom we can be safe enough to show all the really yucky stuff we usually keep under wraps. This creates a dance that brings the people ever closer, and then spins the people away from each other, and then back again. The two people notice the increasing safety each time it comes around, each time one or both of them have gotten a good chunk of the old stuff drained off in tears or whatever. Then they muck it up by turning client again. It's as if they are saying, "Yeah, but do you love me even when I act like THIS???" Because it is precisely in that area they most need to be seen and loved. And we keep picking people with whom we can do this sort of dance, in the hope that someday, SOMEONE will notice the struggle we are having with those awful old feelings, and give us a hand with them, so we can be free of them. And it works, too, IF the people take turns, but that's the hard part, because it feels like something SO URGENT that we just gotta hog all the attention there is! So we tend to make these big explosions instead of steadily and calmly working on the distrsses.... sort of like tearing the whole house down instead of just regularly taking out the trash. Another factor at work-- the most common distress in relationships-- is frozen needs. We feel like we need something that they other person can give us. Problem is, the need stems from a real and unmet childhood need, and that need can no longer be met. The time to meet it has passed, and the survival-level need it actually was is no longer applicable. We are on our own now and can get our own needs met without being dependent on an adult's timely and accurate response. But we carry a recording of the old unmet need, the hopelessness about it ever being met, and the hope it will be. And that need seems to say, "If you REALLY loved me you would...." You can always spot a frozen need because it acts like this-- if you get a serving of the thing you "need" and then still want it as badly as you did before you got it-- that is a frozen, unfillable need. The other person will never be able to fill the empty hole. Through the discharge process, you say goodbye to that need and grieve that it was not met and maybe even that you almost died from it being unmet, and then move on. Over time you realize that you can give up expecting the other person to meet that need, and notice that you have real, present-time, fillable needs that can and are being met. You decide you are fine, over and over, despite the fact that it feels like you are not fine at all. You trade feeling deprived for trusting that life does tend to bring us what we actually need. Either party can work on their own stuff in these areas, and it will make a difference. And RC can now be learned online. I think that there are also people teaching and using it via PalTalk in locked-room support groups. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Ebbie Date: 05 Mar 02 - 04:44 PM A friend told me that when his wife told him she wanted a divorce he was devastated. Today, he is very happily married to someone else, has an interesting life, and both of them are involved in music. He says that if his first wife had *not* opted out, he would never had this new life that he loves. Ya just never know. Every now and again I am reminded that when we grieve the loss of something it is a healthy thing. Can you imagine an existence where you never became wholely attached to someone or something? If the heart is not attached, there is no loss. (Sorry; Platitude #30,003, I know, but it's true.) Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: GUEST,cretinous yahoo Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:14 PM If you dont love yourself, no relationship is going to work very well. Too many people go into a relationship for what they can "get" from it. Fatal mistake. This old idea of the "Other half" is a crock. The ideal relationship is one in which two WHOLE people come together to enhance and to add to the relationship. Of course, if you can lose yourself in the other person's identity, and forget your own needs while filling theirs, and not resent it...forget it. I could no longer do that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Diva Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:23 PM Sometimes after all is said and done it really just best to walk away. Its not easy and I know this from personal experience but I wish I'd done it sooner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Madam Gashee Date: 05 Mar 02 - 05:35 PM I'm with Diva. It won't be easy but things must die so that something new can grow. And it will. Be strong, most people I know,(& most people you know too) have been here at some time. Sending lots of love and hugs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: kendall Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:22 PM Anyone who knows horses knows that if the barn catches fire, you must lead the horses out. Then, you must tie them up because they will try to get back to the "safety" of the tie up.It's what they know, and they are incapable of a drastic sudden change. Humans also are driven by instinct, and even though we know better, that instinct is a powerful force. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: MarkS Date: 05 Mar 02 - 07:38 PM Going through something much the same right now, and both of us are a lot happier since we took the hard decision and decided to part and get on with our lives. We are both much better off today, and get along better as friends than spouses. It's hard - but often in the long run more and better happyness is the result. Best of luck Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Mr Red Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:43 PM SharonA couldn't agree more - songs - poetry -. Women often change their hairstyle or wardbrode (so do some men!). there was a story about a songwriter (Richard "Drunkard's Roll" Thompson) who phoned his agent. Agent "How's it goin pal", Richard "women left me!" agent "So that's a raft of new incisive hard hitting songs we can count on then?" AD (after divorce) was my big songwriting phase - poetry at times before. the worthwhile area I was thinking of was helping others but it does require enough detatchment to be able to think what others need in the way of help - little old ladies have been my focus recently. It don't count if it's not helping them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Dave Wynn Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:27 PM I thought I had said my piece but I have been listening to a song tonight. It doesn't offer solutions but it reminded me of this thread. The Chorus is - "There's another train" "There always is" "Maybe the next one is yours" "Get up and climb aboard that other train" Without the tune and metre justice isn't done , but the sentiment holds good. Spot (still saddened) :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: gnu Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:36 PM Cope... you can't cope. Don't even try. You move on. It's hard. Time is the only healer. In time, you will learn this. Trust me, just give it time, and try to not hurt so bad, as best and if you can, until it heals.... it will, trust me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: When it's over... From: Trevor Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:40 AM I'm with cretinous yahoo (why do I find that so difficult to type?) on this. After two divorces it finally dawned on me that if I gave someone else the responsibility for my happiness, a) I was in danger of losing control of the bits of my life that generated happiness, and b) they would eventually get pissed off with having to take that responsibility. It strikes me that if a relationship is based more on need than want, it is less than wholesome. The 'whole' me isn't dependent on someone else's behaviour to make me feel good - I have my own resources. If my relationship with my partner changes, I will be sad for a while because she adds to my life in a way that I feel good about, but I will know that it wasn't mutually 'right'. I will carry on with my life, maybe with someone else but maybe alone, richer for our time together. I suppose this could be seen as a coping strategy, rationalisation, but I promise you, I've never felt more secure than since I figured this out.
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