Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?

DougR 06 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM
Bill D 06 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM
DougR 06 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM
katlaughing 06 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM
SharonA 06 Mar 02 - 06:33 PM
khandu 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM
Sorcha 06 Mar 02 - 11:02 PM
Lepus Rex 06 Mar 02 - 11:32 PM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 06 Mar 02 - 11:35 PM
toadfrog 06 Mar 02 - 11:42 PM
Sorcha 06 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM
Lepus Rex 07 Mar 02 - 12:02 AM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 12:05 AM
Sorcha 07 Mar 02 - 12:07 AM
Lepus Rex 07 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM
khandu 07 Mar 02 - 12:23 AM
Lonesome EJ 07 Mar 02 - 12:25 AM
Chip2447 07 Mar 02 - 12:28 AM
Lepus Rex 07 Mar 02 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,anon 07 Mar 02 - 05:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM
Ringer 07 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM
mack/misophist 07 Mar 02 - 09:09 AM
Bill D 07 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 02 - 10:35 AM
Mrrzy 07 Mar 02 - 10:38 AM
Clinton Hammond 07 Mar 02 - 11:33 AM
Kim C 07 Mar 02 - 12:07 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM
Mickey191 07 Mar 02 - 01:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 02 - 02:09 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 Mar 02 - 02:33 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,Les B. 07 Mar 02 - 03:22 PM
katlaughing 07 Mar 02 - 03:36 PM
PeteBoom 07 Mar 02 - 03:50 PM
toadfrog 07 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM
Clinton Hammond 07 Mar 02 - 04:16 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 06:02 PM
Bobert 07 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 02 - 07:13 PM
DougR 07 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 07 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 02 - 08:11 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 02 - 11:07 PM
mack/misophist 07 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM
Tweed 07 Mar 02 - 11:27 PM
Little Hawk 07 Mar 02 - 11:30 PM
Stilly River Sage 07 Mar 02 - 11:38 PM
Mickey191 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM

Bobert made an interesting statement in the thread Fionn started about the execution of a convicted self-confessed killer. I started to pose this question where he posted it, but I didn't want to commandeer Fionn's thread.

If I understood his statement (correct me if I am wrong, Bobert, but I would pose the original question anyway) he intimated that killing someone in self-defence was justified, or words to that effect.

There are many in this forum that seem to be totally opposed to anyone killing anyone else under ANY circumstance. Does that apply if one feels he/she must kill to defend one's own life?

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

I suspect you'll get a bell shaped curve on this one...

"never".."always"...with a lot of "sometimes" in between...of course the answer is "sometimes"...almost everyone would kill to defend themselves or their family...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM

Perhaps, Bill D. But I suspect there might be some interesting replies. We'll see.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM

In martial arts, at least the forms I have studied and practised, the object is to get out of the way of one's opponent, if at all possible, NOT to kill them, even if they are trying to kill you. Preferably, as you get out of their way, they head right for a brick wall and knock themselves out!**bg**

With that in mind, I would try to take that action first, BUT if it came down to them or me, or my family or pets, I'd do what I could to stop them. I would hope that could be in a non-fatal way.

First thing I do, though, is do my best to never get in such a situation.

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 06:33 PM

I remember a thread on this subject going by a few months ago, but I can't remember the thread title. Anybody else recall it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: khandu
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM

I would do it without hesitation to defend the ones that I love.

khandu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:02 PM

Are we talking exclusively humans? If so, yes, I think I would. We never really know until it comes to the moment........my children are the most precious things in my life and I would like to think I could defend them, but who knows unless the Crunch hits? I just hope it never does.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:32 PM

Well... I think all killing is wrong. People, dogs, cockroaches, geraniums, etc. I still eat meat and vegetables (duh), though, and I'd still slaughter any fleas that decided to make a home on my cat, but I'd feel bad about it. (However, I don't swat mosquitos. ;)) So...

I strongly oppose the idea the idea that any government at any level has the right to take a person's life. Execution in particular is brutal and anachronistic, and the U.S. should join the civilized nations of the world by banning it. But...

Let's say someone killed my... dad. I know that, if I knew who killed him, I would attempt to kill the murderer. Now, if I succeeded in killing this person, I'd know that what I'd done was wrong, and turn myself in to the proper authorities (unless I was in a death penalty state, in which case I would run like Hell.) for punishment. Because killing is wrong. Which, yeah, makes me violent and bad, blah blah blah.

And, of course, I'd do the same (kill) if someone tried to kill me.

But let's say my dad was killed down in Lower Klanistan, and the police arrested the murderer, who was convicted and sentenced to DEATH Well, I'd oppose that.

So... That answer your question, Doug? :)

---Lepus Rex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:35 PM

Yes, If you endanger my life, or my hamster's.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: toadfrog
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:42 PM

I have not killed anyone, or been in a position where it appeared to be called for. I did serve in the Army, which could have placed me in a position where this was required. I strongly suspect that the honest answer for me, and most others similarly situated, is that we don't know whether we would, or would not kill another person if a situation required it, or seemed to require it.

Anybody watch In the Bedroom? A good one to see before you post to this thread.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM

Well, I helped kill a cat today........beloved friend for 13 years. It was painless and he was miserable--blind, deaf, brain damaged, incontinent........it was a Last Gift. In that context, I humbly submit that you are wrong, Lepus. I wish I could have done the same for my mother and father, and wish that someone could do the same for me if I am ever in that position.

How about "Is Killing In/With Violence Ever Justifiable"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:02 AM

That's an excellent point, Sorcha, and "with violence" was what I was talking about. I wouldn't even call helping a suffering cat/person/whatever to die "killing," necessarily, unless you, well, used a lead pipe or something.

And sorry to hear about your cat. :(

---Lepus Rex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:05 AM

Lepus, that certainly is an interesting reply anyway.

You don't swat mosquitos?

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:07 AM

Thank you, Lepus, for both the condolence and the clarification. To all of you---
See how many shades there are to "killing"?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM

Nope, Doug. I brush them away. :)

---Lepus Rex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: khandu
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:23 AM

Three years ago, a stupid man pulled a box-cutter (before box-cutters became the weapon of choice!) on me in a roadside rest stop in the middle of the night. No one else was there. In fact, I had not met another vehicle for miles. Unfortunately, I was in no mood to be threatened or robbed. I have just gotten a "Dear John" from my fiance and I was enraged at the world. Seeing this doofus threatening me with his absurd, but possibly lethal, weapon unleashed the rage within me. I attacked him. After leaving him bleeding and unconscious, I headed for my car. Before I got there, I became angry again. I went back in to the restroom, took his knife and everything he had in his pockets...9 dollars and two ball-bearings(?) and left. I am no thief, but the indignity of all that pissed me off, so I gave him what he would have given me.

I did not kill him, though by state law, I would have been justified. I did leave him with no nose and a long time to heal.

Five miles down the road, I stopped and threw up, sickened by the violence, his and mine. It took a while for me to reconcile myself with the violence that I displayed.

Had I not been so distraught before the attempted robbery, I would have reacted differently. But, nonetheless, if pressed hard enough, I would kill to defend myself.

khandu


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:25 AM

Wouldn't it be much more humane to capture and rehabilitate them, Lepus?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Chip2447
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:28 AM

In a heartbeat, to protect my life, The lives of my family members, or a stranger on the street.
Chip2447


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:55 AM

Yes. Incorrigible. :(

---Lepus Rex


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: GUEST,anon
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 05:33 AM

Objectively no its not justified.
Subjectively yes I would do it and feel (convince myself) justified, both as defence and as revenge - though of course that's just conjecture as I've never had sufficient provocation (and X-fingers never will).
I do know, however, that I will react very violently if my bluff is called. For example, a total stranger kept putting ice down the back of my dress in a pub, and after I asked him several times to stop he asked what was I going to do about it. So I burnt him with my cigarette - just to avoid backing down. Not very clever, as this resulted in a fight etc, but I know that I'd do it again in the same situation. If the stakes were high enough I'm fairly sure I'd kill.
I've also seen that adrenalin thing that some men get when spoiling for a fight. Both my husband and his brother can get very hyped up when riled (not often) - and their breathing changes and you can see by their weird eye-focus thing that there will be trouble. Its a very powerful state of mind and there is no rational thought - so who knows what seems justified under those conditions?
Civilisation is sometimes a very thin veneer isn't it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM

I have the right to defend myself and other people. In certain circumstances that might mean injury or death to another person, but my intention would be defensive, with the injury and death an unwanted side-effect. At all times I should use the minimum possible force necessary.

That's the principle anyway. And of course there is room for disagreement about what is the minimum necessary force. That ranges from people who would claim that it is justifiable to kill as a way of deterring other people to those who would say that avoiding killimng or injury at the cost of being injured or killed is the only way in the longer run to stop the cycle of violence.

But the same basic principle of minimum necessary violence should be common ground - and that includes a recognition that in all circumstances killing simply for vengeance is wrong.

That's the principle anyway. Human beings being fallible, we don't stick to that, and that is very understandable. When we go beyond what is necessary we may be entitled to be forgiven - but we should never try to say that what we did is right.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Ringer
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM

"killing simply for vengeance is wrong", says McGrath (twice). But how about killing for justice?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:09 AM

Traditional rabbinical thinking, which is very pacifistic, says that almost all restrictions are off when protecting the life of another. To save a life is the greatest mitzvah possible. The "no matter what it takes", now, that's another matter.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM

many years ago, I knew a woman who considered herself to be a 'Bhuddist'...but was really trying to practice 'Jainism', which teaches reverence for all life..she even worried about eating eggs, and had to be sure they were unfertilized.....

well, she was noticed one day scooping up cockroaches in her kitchen,and, since she would not squash them or spray them, tossing them outside----into below freezing temperatures!

"All I'm doing is getting them out of my house", she said,"what God does with them after that is not my concern"......

my, the human mind can certainly create any rules it needs to justify whatever it feels like doing


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:35 AM

"Killing for justice" - in my view the only way to justify this would be on the grounds that this was a form of self defence by the community, as a way of preventing further violence towards the innocent in the future.

I would question whether this would ever stand up except perhaps in very special circumstances. "Killing for justice" in most circumstances I'd just see as a formalised way of killing for vengeance.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:38 AM

JustifiABLE, in almost every killer's mind. JustiFIED in the eyes of the rest of society... is another thing. According to our legal system the answer is Yes, or self-defense wouldn't be a defense. Is this "right" or not? Separate question.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:33 AM

Killing...

It's the way of the world...

New Age clap-trap, and delusions of a past that never existed aside, EVERYTHING kills something else to survive, whether directly or indirectly...

Me, I kill at the drop of a hat...

So be warned!

LOL!!!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:07 PM

Well, you could say that the balance of the universe demands life and death, good and evil. So in that context, death as a result of evil is going to occur.

Now. Self-defense? Oh yeah. No question for me about that. Would I WANT to kill someone? No way. I would rather knock them unconscious, tie them up and wait for the police. But if I had to shoot, I'd do it.

I don't kill most bugs in my house. We try to trap them and take them outside. Except for those moths that get in your grain products - I have declared WAR on those.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

When I posed the question, I did not consider the legality of it. Even if it was legal, I am inclined to believe that some of our Mudcat friends would not kill another person, even in self-defense.

I have been rather surprised to see how many that would. I would with no hesitation.

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?I
From: Mickey191
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:29 PM

I was attacked once in a store I worked in. This Crazy (politically incorrect term) woman started ranting and raving at a customer who was minding her own business. I asked the weird one to leave the premises. Before I knew it she was on me in a little alcove, where we could not be seen. I yelled to the other customers call the police. She is punching and scratching and I was just trying to push her away. The men in the store did nothing. All the time, I'm thinking, If I hit her, I'll be sued, Which is why I didn't flatten her. I finally extricated myself from the alcove and ran to the phone. No one had even called the police. At this point, she left-drove away in her yellow bug.It proved to me that I could keep a calm head in a bad situation. However, if she'd had a knife and I'd had a gun. I 'd have blown her away without a moments hesitation, With a clear conscience.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 02:09 PM

Using a gun to stop someone attacking you or someone else is one thing, and that might indeed mean they were killed.

But "blowing people away" - to me that sounds like the language of someone who actually welcomes the opportunity to kill another person, rather than recognising it as something that, if it has to be done, is a horrible thing to have to do.

I'm sure that isn't how Mickey191 is really thinking. But there are people who do think like that. It's not a good idea to talk in a way that helps them think that that is a sane and acceptable way of thinking. I'd have no problems in calling it a crazy way of thinking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 02:33 PM

A huge West Indian guy went berserk in a store my wife managed, threw her against some shelves and tried to wack a can of beans in her head ( she dodged it). The security staff got him outside and gave him a serious beating - about which my wife, to her credit, was disgusted and angry.

I wouldn't go to the stake to save people like the Wests, to mention an odious couple who achieved notoriety in the UK; nor the likes of John Wayne Gacey in the states. It's a serious issue, though, that even in the most apparently clear-cut cases, wrongful convictions do occur. I can't think of anything worse a civilised society can do than execute an innocent person.

I don't have any stomach for executing war criminals years after the atrocities, because people can and do change. I would however be all in favour of them having to square up to what they'd done in some appropriate forum. I had great hopes for the truth & reconciliation approach in S Africa. Pity it didn't work better, but it was still their best chance of a stable recovery from the horror that went before.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM

Well, since my wranglin' buddy. DougR dragged my poor butt into this thread I figuered I'd at least say, HEY, So, DougR, you were surprised that I woulod kill in self defense or in the defense of my family or friends, or just innocent folks standing around. Well, it certainly wouldn't be my first choice.

Katlaughing and McGrath have both brought up the concept of minimum force and that is where I come down on the issue. I also learned the concept many years ago while diddling around with Karate. It would take an extreme situation for me to kill another human and one where there were absolutely no other alternatives.

But with that said, I'm stcking with the premise that if we expect a more civilized society we're not going to get there by killing folks. I have no problem with life with no parole for dangerous folks, however.

Sorcha: Sorry about the cat. I lost my border collie, Shep, last fall and still miss that old flea bite hound.

Lepus Rex: I try not to let the mesquetos breed to begin with. That way I don't have to swat them. But I do show a lot more respect for those living creatures further up the food chain. I am a gardener and rabbits, moles, voles and deer can be a pain BUT I don't kill 'em, but I do irritate them with a variety of sprays, noisemankers, and have on occasion stung a bad doe with my air rifle.

DougR: Gotta respect the way you hang in there, buddy. You stick around here long enough and one day you'll wake up with a "Red Book" in your pajama pocket... Woaa! Slow down there, Bobert... Jus' funnin with ya', buddy...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:22 PM

I guess the "justifiable" killing that puzzles me is when the game guards in animal preserves in Africa shoot and kill poachers.

Granted, sometimes the poachers are shooting at the guards first, in which case the self defense idea prevails, but my general understanding is that at times the guards shoot first. The poachers are killing animals - to make a living, and the guards are killing humans - to enforce laws. Seems like the logic about the value of human life is screwy ??


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:36 PM

In talking with a friend who has been confronted with this, he suggested 1) that NOT knowing if we could or could not leaves us unprepared and could get us killed, if ever in that type of situation;

2) if he had a family, he would raise his children to know when it is appropriate and possible to use the flight, fight or flee response. NOT just teach one, but all three, for different circumstances, so that they would be prepared;

3) talking about this in an intellectual, hypothetical way may be helpful for us, but it is important to hear from those who actually have been in these kinds of situations, as some have posted above.

I used to be so sure that I would kill someone outright if they ever threatened my family, me, friends, pets, etc. Now, I just don't know. If it were my kids, grandkids or pets, I think I would; if it were myself, I think I'd try any of the other things first, which, if my friend is correct, would most likely get me killed.

How the hell can we really know without actually being in that situation?

Is this just a mental exercise, then? Do we live in a safer place of society that we can indulge and not be confronted? Just asking, not accusing.

Thanks,

kat


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:50 PM

Regarding capital punishment... Tolkein summed up my feelings very well indeed...

"Death? I daresay he deserves death. Yet many who live deserve death, just as many who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? ...Do not be swift to give one without being able to give the other."

In other circumstances, taking up arms to defend my wife, step-daughters and grandchildren is something that is omni-present for me, particularly where I live. (Having had the police over last night for two hours dealing with local thugs.)

Pere


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: toadfrog
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM

Gee, Mr. Eagle, what does that mean, "killing for justice"? I'm a lawyer. I hear people talk about "justice" all the time. I am frequently amazed at how easy it is for people to persuade themselves that "justice" requires that their every wish be gratified. But it is not necessary to hang around the courts to reach that conclusion; just listen to what folks say on the radio.

"Killing for justice" sounds to me a whole lot like killing for revenge. Or killing to show everybody how powerful, and how macho one is. But maybe I misapprehend something. Maybe you can explain the difference to me?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:16 PM

"Seems like the logic about the value of human life is screwy"

Why is human life more valuable than animall life???


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:02 PM

Bobert: that's how I took it. I feel if I stick around long enough, I'll swing you to my POV!

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM

LOL, DougR. Heck, if I agreed with your stuff, what would we have to wrangle over? Peace.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:13 PM

Arguing is different from quarrelling - that's a distinction people keep on failing to make. Arguing with people you are fond of about things you disagree about can be one of the great pleasures of life.

Maybe you get them to change their minds, maybe they get you to change your mind. More likely you begin to understand why the other person sees it differently. With luck, while you continue to disagree, you might find some deeper level where you are in agreement.

And that can work with people you aren't particularly fond of, in serious negotiations, teasing out the common interests, and using that as a basis for building some kind of common ground on which both sides can stand. Of course if you've killed each other before you get to that stage, it doesn't work.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM

And then there is also discussion without hope of conversion, McGrath. I think much of what goes on here is that (as I creep my own thread)

DougR


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM

OK Toadfrog, I'm off to see In the Bedroom tomorrow night. I assume it's a good film as well as relevant?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 08:11 PM

Most argument is argument without any expectation of conversion - what there can be is hope of understanding, and I think that is at least as important. Understanding the other person's viewpoint, and getting a better understanding of what we actually believe ourselves. And that can reveal that there is more in common than is immediately apparent.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:07 PM

Hmmmm...well, the human mind being what it is (a law unto itself, and the self-assumed center of the universe)...ANYthing can be "justifiable", given someone's line of rational. Or not, given someone else's line. And that is one reason why crimes happen in this world.

I can certainly imagine situations where I might kill someone, though I hope that they do not arise. In general, I think a wise person finds any other solution first, before killing another human being. A less wise person doesn't give that a whole lot of thought, and frequently ruins his life (and other lives) as a consequence of that lack of forethought.

There's usually a better solution than killing someone, but sometimes there is no better solution. Someone who knows martial arts well can easily disarm or incapacitate an ordinary opponent without killing him, whereas someone who doesn't may not have such good control over how he defends himself in an emergency.

A blanket statement one way or the other for or against killing is not likely to cover all circumstances. The same goes for other contentiuos issues...like abortion, for example.

It depends greatly on the situation one finds oneself in. Being in the middle of a battlefield, for instance, is a different situation than being on the streets of a town in peacetime, and merits different behaviour.

I do think that it is very dangerous to give any government the right to legally execute its own citizens...or anyone else...as a normal function during peacetime. There's no need for it in any case. People can, after all, be imprisoned and put where they are no further danger to the public.

The numerous cases of people wrongly convicted of crimes (and sometimes not exonerated till decades after the conviction...) are among the strongest reasons for NOT executing people. A man was recently exonerated in Canada after serving a couple of decades for a "murder" that is now determined to never have happened!!! His wife, the victim, is now believed to have simply fallen down a flight of cellar stairs and died by misadventure (rather than being bludgeoned and tossed down)...this decision was reached by a vast majority of over 20 modern forensic experts who researched the old files, exhumed the wife's body, and studied the original very flimsy (if not nonexistant) evidence brought against the accused man by some overzealous police officers who figured they were on to something. In Texas he would have been executed long ago. In Canada he goes free, but has lost a huge chunk of his life to a fallible system.

I believe people execute criminals more out of fear than for any other reason. They call it "justice", but I don't, I call it fear.

Justice is something far too subtle and elusive to be understood by anyone except a god or an angel. People try to arrange what they call "justice" with their laws and their punishments, but they fall way short of comprehending how to actually do it. What they end up arranging is not justice, but a sort of primitive coping mechanism for responding to social disorders. Well, okay, it's better than no mechanism at all...but it's not justice.

So, Doug, I can see where I might kill someone under certain circumstances, I just generally hope not to if at all possible.

And as for killing animals, bugs, plants, etc....we all figure those questions out in our own unique fashion, and it will ever be so, I figure. I eat some meat and I kill mosquitoes and black flies (a notable Canadian wilderness pest) ruthlessly. I've been known to catch fish. It's probably impossible to get through this life without killing something, I just try to keep it down to a reasonable minimum.

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM

The first question to ask is "Is it ever justifiable to kill somebody for reasons other than self defense"? It's hard to argue that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao deserved to live out their natural spans. After that, things get complicated. Please note. US prisons tried rehabilitation for over a generation. In most cases, it didn't work. What else is left, other than revenge?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Tweed
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:27 PM

Banishment. Drop them (extreme criminals) off in the Arctic and let them fend for themselves.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:30 PM

What else is left? Practicality. I find it quite practical to imprison people (if I have a clear reason to) and not kill them.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao found it much more practical to kill them...en masse...while imprisoning many more.

This is why I would not kill Hitler or anyone else, if he became my prisoner at the end of a shooting war...I would imprison him. I would give him time to fully examine and face the results of his actions. I have no wish to imitate the world's despots and make myself the mirror of their brutality...their sense of divine right to judge, condemn, and exterminate those they deem undesirable.

It is people who are deeply afraid who kill other people. Hitler was deeply afraid, largely as a result of some pretty horrific things he experienced as a corporal in the 1st World War. That fear, coupled with a gift for oratory and an obsession to "save Germany" from what he deemed as "enemies within", made him a very dangerous man.

- LH


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:38 PM

I live in a state (Texas) with a bad reputation for a lot of things. One of them is how liberal they are in exercising the death penalty. I am not in favor it it. But read this story and see if you don't find real cause for at least considering it. Then think about how this has been dealt with so far--she got bail for $10,000. Do you think it's because the victim was a non-entity, a homeless man?

BTW: I had never been in a position to think myself capable of killing someone in self-defense. But when my first child was born the ante was instantly raised and I knew that if I had to kill to protect my child, it would be possible.

SRS


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?
From: Mickey191
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

McGrath, you're absolutely correct, (inre.to my 1:29 post) it was a poor choice of words. I should have said, "I'd dispatch her in a minute." I feel better now! In the U.S. a life sentence rarely means that. If the laws were changed so there were no possibility of parole in appropriate cases, we could abolish the death penalty.If there was a national referendum, I wonder how the vote would tally.

I don't mind admitting, for over a year I kept my eye out for that yellow volkswagon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 5 April 3:17 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.