BS: Time traveller troubles

Subject: Time traveller troubles
From: Big John
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:40 PM

I once read a short story in a science fiction magazine in which time travelling tourists attended the trial of Jesus. In order to "fit in" they dressed and behaved the same as the locals and shouted "crucify him". It transpired that all the local people stayed at home that day so it was the time travellers who unintentionally caused the crucifixion. What has this got to do with Mudcat? It seems to me that a lot of political comment on Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales is being made by people in far flung places, some of whom are recent emigrants, many of whom are second or third generation descendants of emigrants who have a distorted view of the reality in these islands. I am not suggesting that the USA caused the problems in Northern Ireland but a large amount of the funding for both the Loyalist and Repubican camps came from expatriates who gained their knowledge of Irish history from biased sources. So, all you pseudo historians out there please look at the story from both sides. Beam me up Scotty.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Amos
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:48 PM

There's an interesting approach to the Bloody Sunday (1972) distortions being employed using virtual simulation; it seems to be an interesting breakthrough in enabling people to remember what they saw thirty years ago.

Story is here in the NY Times for those interested in this approach.

Regards,

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:49 PM

Big John
you beat me to it - what TT model are you driving? Mine does 0 to -60 hours in 3.5 seconds

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:53 PM

"history from biased sources"

There's no such thing as Unbiased History...

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:42 AM

The knowledge that no recollection or history is completely free of bias should not prevent our use of extremely helpful techniques as the one linked to by Amos. At least it can help to minimise unvoluntary bias.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:56 AM

John - I remember that story! I loved that story! What was it? Who was it by? I definitely remember it being in a book of SciFi stories. But it must have been about 15 years ago when I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Big John
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:53 AM

Fiubula, Its about 15 years since I read it too. No info on author. It had another story about a guy called Stein who murdered someone and built a time machine to escape. Punch line of story was, "A NICHE IN TIME SAVES STEIN".

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 06:14 AM

Ah ... Big John,

That dreadful pun rings a nasty jarring bell - I think that was a collection of short stories by Isaac Asimov (indeed< I do vaguely remember the time traveller/crucifixion story) ... but I can't tell you which of his hundreds of books it was!

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 06:48 AM

Hi BJ,

Interesting thread. Just to emphasise one of the points you make below I have copied something I found while doing some research for another thread. I went through it and was absolutely horrified that anyone might read this twaddle and believe it to be true

Pipe Band History -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Figure 1.--The uniform of pipebands is largely derived from the uniforms that the largely English Army ordanined for regiments recruited in Scotland. For years after the battle of Colloden, Scotts except in the army were prohibited from wearing the kilt or playing the pipes. Penalties could be severe. The bagpipe and pipe music is virtually a symbol of the Scottish people. Ironically, this symbol of Scotland is inextricably tied to Scotland's two historic foes, the Romans and the hated sasquonots-- the English. It was the Romans who probably introduced the pipes to the Scotts. It was the English Army which created the modern pipeband. The history of the bagpipe is largely lost in recorded history. It appears to have originated outside of Scotland. There are references to the pipes in Roman times and in fact the pipes may have been brought to Scotland by the Romans. It is believed that they were used in Scotland as early as 100 Ad and the piper came to be held in higher esteem in Scotland than anywhere else. By the year 1000, the bagpipes were popular throughout Scotland and by 1500, every clan chieftain worthy of the name had a piper who would stay with his family. The pipes were banned along with the tartan and the kilt by the English. The English feared the stirring effect of the pipes on Scottish emotions. It was in Scottish higlands, however, that the modern great pipes were developed. The pipes might have been lost to the modern world after the disaster at Coloden and the subsequent English supression by the English Army. The supression, however, was one factor in Scottish emmigration to American and other countries, effectively spreading Scottish culture and music around the world. The English while prohibiting the Scottish to wear the kilt or play the bagpipe, recruited Scottish regiments and these Scotts were allowed to wear kilts and play the pipes. The modern Scottish and Irish pipeband is in effect a creation of the largely English army, created to accompany and add martial spirit to the Scottish regiments. Interestingly the English also played a major role in the modern Scottish kilt.

Early history The origin of the bagpipe is lost to recorded history as is its development in ancient times. The bagpipes are a very ancient instrument and there are references to them in Chinese, Persian, Greek and Roman folklore dating at least as far back as 2,000 years. There are a variety of historical references suggesting that the bagpipe was well established in the Roman world. One of the earliest historical references to specifically mention the bagpipes is from Dio Chrysostom, a Greek writer, in 100 AD. He wrote, presumably describing Nero (8AD): "They say that he can write, carve statues, play the aulos both with his mouth, and also with the armpit, a bag being thrown under it." Early in the 6th Century Procpius, a Greek historian, mentions that the bagpipe was the instrument of the Roman Infantry while the trumpet was used in the Cavalry. Some support for this statement can be found in a sculptured bronze escavated at Richborough Castle, Kent. The image is a Roman soldier in full marching order with bagpipes.

Appearance in Scotland Considerable controversy surrounded the origins of the pipes in Scotland. Some believe it is a Roman import, brought to Britain by the invading Roman Legions. Other scholars believe that the instrument came from Ireland as the result of colonization, the first in 120AD under Cairbre Riada, the second in 506AD under Fergus Lorne, and Angus, the sons of Erc. Either or both explanations may be correct, or the pipes may have been invented independently but speculation is largely futile as the instrument is so ancient as to be beyond the means of establishing whether it was indigenous or not.

Three centuries ago, when the bagpipe was played everywhere in Europe as well as in the courts of the most powerful monarchs, no one could have foreseen that Highland Clan's PIOB MHOR or "great pipe" was destined to become known world wide. It is sufficient to say that the Highlanders where the ones to develop the instrument to its full extent and make it, both in peace and war, their national instrument.

Development in Scotland The original pipes in Scotland probably had no drones, or at the most, a single drones. Records exist indicating that a single drone was used prior to the 1500's and an entry from Scotland's Exchequer Rolls states that a payment was made to "English piper with the drone.

The second drone was added to the Scottish pipes in mid to late 1500's. A set of pipes do exist that have two drones and they are marked with the Roman date of MCCCCIX (1409), but most experts believe that these are Victorian Era fakes or at least the date is in error and should be 1709.

Bagpipes are mentioned with some frequency in Scottish historical records. In the Exchequer Rolls of 1362, a payment of forty shillings was "paid to the Kings Pipers." An inventory of instruments in St. James palace conducted in 1419 specifies "four bagpipes with pipes of ivory" and another "bagpipe with pipes of ivory, the bag covered with purple velvet." In 1486, Edinburgh rejoiced in a band consisting of three pipers, and any household who declined to billet these "city musicians" in rotation was liable to be fined nine pence in accordance with a town council decree. Suprisingly in the accounts of the Lords High Treasurers of Scotland there is a reference to pipers being "INGLIS." In the years 1489 and 1491 payments were made to "the English piper that came to the castle and played to the King," and to "four English Pipers."

The first written mention of the "Great Pipes" was in 1623 when a piper from Perth was prosecuted for playing on the Sabbath. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Figure 2.--The English supression of the Scottish highlanders played a major role in spreading Scottish people and music around the world. This is a pipeband at an Australian school--as far away from Scotland as one can get.

The third drone or the great drone came into use early in the 1700's. A painting of the piper to the Laird of Grant shows three working drones and is dated 1733. Some evidence suggests that the great drone was in use earlier and that the last drone to be added was the second tenor drone. This was disputed by Joseph MacDonald in 1760. He is quoted: "Besides the smaller drones of the Highland bagpipe there was and still is, in use with pipers in the north highlands particularly, a great drone, double the length and thickness of the smaller, and the sound, just an octave below them, which adds vastly to its grandeur, both in sound and show."

Another important development in the Highlands was the use of the small pipes. Again from Joseph MacDonald we find "through the reels and jigs peculiar to the pipes are in large companies as at weddings, etc. played to good effect on the Great Pipes. Yet, they have besides, through the Highlands in general a smaller bagpipe, complete, the same in form and apparatus with the greater, differing only in size and used for dancing music alone, although all other music peculiar to the instrument may also be played on it truly, though not so grandly as on the large pipes." Also the name "Great Highland Bagpipe" does in itself imply that there existed smaller pipes in the Highlands.

The primary advantage of the Great Highland Bagpipe was in producing a much more martial effect than horns, trumpets or harps. The pipes stimulate the highlander when playing warlike compositions or make them remorseful when playing the lament.

Pipe Band History Scottish higlanders fought the English for centuries with the bagpipes by their side. The pipes had such an unsettling affect that the English came to think of them as the heart of Scottish resistance. The efforts of Scottish higlanders to drive out the English came to a disatrous conclusion at the battle of Colloden in 1732??. The forces of Bonnie Prince Charlie were devestated. Scottish rebels were hunted down and killed, in many cases without trial. The English proceeded to prohibit the wearing of kilts and the possessiin, let along the playing of the pipes. The Scottish people were further devestated by the Higland Clearances as English absentee landlords drove people off the land in ordervto devote huge estates to sheep, requiring only limited labor.

Curriosly it was the English "occupation" of the Higlands that not only created the modern pipe band, but spread it around the world.

Creation of the pipe band The pipes accompanied Scottish warriors for centuries. They never, however, had pipebands in the modern sence. The pipebands were created by the English Army. After the suppresion of the Higlands, Scotts gravitated to the English Army, which as a result became avBritish Army. Modern readers may find it strange that the Scotts would join what was in effect an occupation army. There are a number of reasons for this. One, the defeat at Colloden and resulting suppression of the Higland clans was so devestating and complete that most Scotts gave up all hope of an independent Scotland free of the English. Most saw few options than to cooperate with the Englisg, not matter how bitter that may be. Two, the economy of Scotland, especially the Higlands, was devestated by the English suppression and the Higland Clearances that there were few job opportunities. The Scotts who joined the English Army had few if any options. Of course there were also the Lowland Scotts who cooperated with the English against the Higlanders even before Colloden. Third, the English allowed the Scottish regiments to wear the kilt as a uniform and be accompanied by bagpipes. It was at these regiments that the modern pipeband was created.

Spread of the Bagpipe and Pipebands The English suppresion of the Higland clans and the following clearances created such dismal economic conditions that many Scotts found emmigration as the only alternative to starvation. The English response to the Potato Famine in Ireland had the same impact on the Irish. Large numbers of Scotts and Irish found themselves in such far away places as America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and many other English colonies. With them they brought their cultural herritage including their music and dance. With them came the pipes. It was their grandsons and greatgrandsons, interested in their heritage that decided to form and participate in pipebands in places as remote from the Scottish Highlands and Ireland beyond the Pale as one can imangine.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christopher Wagner

[e-mail]

For anybody requiring any pointers:

Wrt English/Scottish history from 1603 to 1707 the two seperate kingdoms had a common monarch supplied by the Royal House of Stuart (Scottish), there was one break in this period Cromwell's Commonwealth (1649 - 1660).

After the Union of Parliaments in 1707 there was no ENGLISH activity in Scotland, BRITISH yes, ENGLISH no. The Jacobite Rebellions of 1715 and 1745 were very poorly supported in Scotland, the vast majority of the population were beginning to feel the advantages of markets opened to them through the new association with England. In the lowlands and borders of Scotland the years 1700 to 1707 had seen continual crop failures and Scotlands attempt to set up a trading colony on the Darien Penninsula had bankrupted the country.

As you recommended in your posting the trick is to read the event/period from as many perspectives as possible before jumping in with both feet.

Cheers,

Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM

Jasper Carrot once said:

"Take a look at the number of surnames beginning with 'Mac' in the London telephone directory, and then ask yourself the question - who colonised who?"

More recently, Billy Bragg said:

"Hold on to the hyphen in Anglo-Saxon - it reminds us that England was multi-cultural right from the beginning."

Wassail!

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM

The worst pun that I ever heard from Asimov was the "Star Mangled Spanner" one.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 11:17 AM

I think the "niche in time saves stein" story was published under the pseudonym of Ferdinand Feghoot, all of whose stories ended with aweful puns. Now if I could just remember the real name.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: MMario
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 11:36 AM

article on Feghoots

another

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 11:45 AM

Given the open ended nature of the thread title, I'd like to bring forward a theory I have held dear for years: viz, that the singers of folk music are the real time travelers among us, moving from strange localized warp-spots in little coffee-houses, living rooms, and gathering halls all over the planet. From this wide array of staging spots, we haul as many of our listeners as are capable of making the jump back in time to the universes of High Barbary, Nantucket, the gold hills of '49, Antietam and the old Pontchatrain, the courts of Elizabeth and Phillip, the battles and lost loves and misadventures of our kind from earliest history on. Sometimes listeners make it all the way, and find themselves standing beside Roddy McCorly or Mary Seton or young Geordie as they die, watch the flags unfurl over the Irish town, and see the lass with the nutbrown hair traipsing down the green. Other times, the poor listeners get stuck in the present, and all they see is some marginal character with an scruffy Martin singing off key. Their loss, sez I. Because, more than historians in general, and far more than those who ignore folk songs, we are the effective travelers in time. Our songs, even when hobson-jobsoned through a thousand versions, capture the human heart of the past and give us the only known technology for lifting off and touching down at spots all across history.

So here's to all of yez who travel time as a reg'lar thing, may you live long, and travel far and often, and always come home safe and sound with your Martin intact!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 11:52 AM

Ah! Beaten to the 'Star-Mangled Spanner one! (Though I HAD thought it was Arthur C. Clarke, with that one.....but I suppose Asimov does 'fit' better)

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 12:43 PM

The myth that the dreaded English banned the bagpipes in Scotland is so embedded in American "lets pretend to be Celtic" culture that it will never die. It is comparable to the well-known fact the the Victorians were so prudish that they covered up the legs of pianos. It's a sad fact that most people prefer to believe what they would like to think might have happened, rather than take a bit of trouble to find out what did. Which is I suppose understandable, given that it is well known you can never be absolutely sure about anything. But surely people could take a little trouble to do their best, truth can be stranger than fiction and much more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 12:46 PM

The myth that the dreaded English banned the bagpipes in Scotland is so embedded in American "lets pretend to be Celtic" culture that it will never die. It is comparable to the well-known fact the the Victorians were so prudish that they covered up the legs of pianos. It's a sad fact that most people prefer to believe what they would like to think might have happened, rather than take a bit of trouble to find out what did. Which is I suppose understandable, given that it is well known you can never be absolutely sure about anything. But surely people could take a little trouble to do their best, truth can be stranger than fiction and much more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Time traveller troubles
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 12:56 PM

Well,that wasnt interesting enough to read twice. Funny things these computers.